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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 00:42:06
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I always wondered about this. I was looking at the Greater Doppelganger in "Monsters of Faerun", and wondered exactly how does a normal doppelganger ever become the greater version (which is obviously much more powerful in all ways).
Is it simply a rare occurence when doppelgangers spawn? Or is it some sort of ritual that takes place to become "reborn" as one of these?
I have plenty of ideas how this could come to be, but I was wondering if anyone knew something more official? Or would Ed maybe know? (assuming he is even allowed to answer such a question)
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 01:54:03
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| Practice... |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 02:48:06
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| Age, I would presume. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 04:55:37
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| I've always assumed that greater doppelgangers were a different breed. I don't recall seeing anything saying that the lesser version eventually became the greater version. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 05:27:14
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| I always thought, like Wooly, that they are an entirely different creature...possibly the end result of an evolutionary branch even. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 08:26:56
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I believe they are a related race but a distinct one. I wonder if they still refer to themselves as shallar.
They were either created by Steven Schend or Ed for the City of Splendors boxed set. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 10:09:37
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| Well, City of Splendors was released five years before 3rd edition. The example of a greater doppelganger given in that book was Hlaavin, who, as it turned out, was half-illithid. |
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 14 Nov 2014 10:10:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 12:25:43
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| That's why I used the vernacular 'as it turned out'. :) |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 17:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
My own personal feeling is that Hlaavin is not the only type of greater doppelganger (which could really mean a doppelganger that is more than the standard and so in 3E terms any template added could result in a greater doppelganger).
No, it's not a template or anything -- greater doppelgangers have a very specific set of abilities, which exceed those of regular doppelgangers.
I've no objection to adding a template to a doppelganger; I'm just saying that greater doppelgangers are a specific breed, and not one-offs with templates.
Personally, I would figure that sometime after the fall of the Batrachi, someone (and illithids are a good candidate) captured some regular doppelgangers and started experimenting on them, with the eventual result being a greater doppelganger. It's possible that the original greater doppelgangers were some sort of illithid-doppelganger hybrid that bred true. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 18:44:19
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Doppelgangers and greater doppelgangers have unique MC entries in 3.5e.
Hlaavin was a special case. I don't recall all my reasons, but I made him different than a normal greater doppelganger by adding the half-illithid template.
I certainly don't think all greater doppelgangers are half-illithids.
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
My own personal feeling is that Hlaavin is not the only type of greater doppelganger (which could really mean a doppelganger that is more than the standard and so in 3E terms any template added could result in a greater doppelganger).
No, it's not a template or anything -- greater doppelgangers have a very specific set of abilities, which exceed those of regular doppelgangers.
I've no objection to adding a template to a doppelganger; I'm just saying that greater doppelgangers are a specific breed, and not one-offs with templates.
Personally, I would figure that sometime after the fall of the Batrachi, someone (and illithids are a good candidate) captured some regular doppelgangers and started experimenting on them, with the eventual result being a greater doppelganger. It's possible that the original greater doppelgangers were some sort of illithid-doppelganger hybrid that bred true.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 19:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Doppelgangers and greater doppelgangers have unique MC entries in 3.5e.
Hlaavin was a special case. I don't recall all my reasons, but I made him different than a normal greater doppelganger by adding the half-illithid template.
I certainly don't think all greater doppelgangers are half-illithids.
--Eric
They had unique entries in 2E, as well; that was when Hlaavin and greater doppelgangers were introduced.
Have you any speculations to share on the origin of greater doppelgangers? |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 20:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Doppelgangers and greater doppelgangers have unique MC entries in 3.5e.
Hlaavin was a special case. I don't recall all my reasons, but I made him different than a normal greater doppelganger by adding the half-illithid template.
I certainly don't think all greater doppelgangers are half-illithids.
--Eric
They had unique entries in 2E, as well; that was when Hlaavin and greater doppelgangers were introduced.
Have you any speculations to share on the origin of greater doppelgangers?
I thought I put something in Vampires of Waterdeep or DDGttU, but I might be totally misremembering. I'll have to dig.
--Eric
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 21:34:41
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Ah, good call. Page 46 of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark:
quote:
Unbeknownst to the Unseen leaders, greater dopplegangers were bred from their lesser kin after decades of experimentation by the Creative Creed of Ch'Chitl.
Though I must note that this doesn't rule out (nor confirm) the idea that greater doppelgangers have some illithid somewhere in their ancestry. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Nov 2014 21:38:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 22:36:31
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I am now trying to wrap my mind around the concept of a race that can turn into anything, be half of anything. 
Baby Hlaavin: "Mummy, can I grow-up to be anything I want?"
Mommy Hlaavin: "No dear... but half of you can."
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2014 22:38:12 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 11:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am now trying to wrap my mind around the concept of a race that can turn into anything, be half of anything.
Baby Hlaavin: "Mummy, can I grow-up to be anything I want?"
Mommy Hlaavin: "No dear... but half of you can."
Thanks for the laugh.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2014 : 18:18:06
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Interesting. The idea of greater doppelgangers being illithid experiments.
Except why the "greater" reference? When I think of Greater Doppelganger, it specifically sounds to me like a doppelganger with more doppelganger powers than the others. Other than the brain eating thing, I don't see how illithids would want to create a better version of these that they could not control.
Unless there was an alliance of some sort in the past?
Still...do they breed true or could normal doppelgangers "ascend"? I kinda view them as it is between vampires and vampire lords, with the latter being more powerful and ascended versions of themselves when first created. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2014 : 23:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Interesting. The idea of greater doppelgangers being illithid experiments.
Except why the "greater" reference? When I think of Greater Doppelganger, it specifically sounds to me like a doppelganger with more doppelganger powers than the others. Other than the brain eating thing, I don't see how illithids would want to create a better version of these that they could not control.
Unless there was an alliance of some sort in the past?
Still...do they breed true or could normal doppelgangers "ascend"? I kinda view them as it is between vampires and vampire lords, with the latter being more powerful and ascended versions of themselves when first created.
They are greater in that their doppelganger abilities are much stronger -- you can read the mind of a greater doppelganger without realizing it's not the person you think it is, and it will have the original's abilities, as well. A regular doppelganger is essentially someone in a good disguise -- a greater doppelganger practically becomes the original person, and they can have multiple identities that they can switch between.
Given that greater doppelgangers are a separate breed and there is no mention at all of regular doppelgangers becoming greater, I think it safe to assume that the greater ones breed true. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2014 : 02:32:49
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| Shallar? From where did this term originate? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2014 : 03:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Shallar? From where did this term originate?
I can't recall the source of the original reference at the moment, but I do remember that Ed referred to them as such in the "Quelzard, Patron of Adventurers" article for the Forging the Forgotten Realms series on the Wizards website. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2014 : 04:32:06
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| Anybody got a current linky for Quelzard? Wtf did Wizzy do to their website?! What a friggin abortion. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 09 Dec 2014 04:36:11 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2014 : 20:41:19
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| Yeah for some reason a lot of their links are broken. If it isn't their terrible game editing and marketing, their website management is just as bad. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2014 : 21:09:18
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I can't even access the old archives anymore. And the wayback machine doesn't like the site due to its robots.txt file now. Sigh.
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Topic |
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How do Doppelgangers become Greater versions?
