Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Spell and Magic Item Auras
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2014 :  03:04:52  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Detect Magic is a highly useful spell available to most spell casting practitioners at even novice levels. The rules set forth a grid of variables that yields a net result telling an observer who studies a magic field its level of power and DC 15 + spell level or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect to determine school of magic. All very solid and practically straight-forward for game play but it leaves me with an image of wizard under this effect wearing a plastic hard hat and making notes in a clipboard as manufactured items pass him by on a conveyor belt.

Then there's the entire write-ups about Wizards Sigils that apparently never really went anywhere as this scroll and this scroll suggest. And then there is the Spell Thematics metamagic feat introduced back in Magic of Faerun but has since been broken into free flavor changes to descriptions of spells and a feat for a mechanics change. Since spells have different formulas and variations (basis for this presumption is the requirement of a Read Magic spell or a specialized skill to understand what is written regardless of the writer's (non)use of secret languages/coded scripts) then the physical presentations can also be different. What if we tie all these things together?

The pretensions to art in Forgotten Realms' descriptions of magic use can be further enhanced by making spell casting uniquely artistic for arcane sources and symbolically unifying for divine powers. Power borrowed from the gods are flavored by the gods and divine magics are immutable by comparison to the chaotic bubblings from the arcane side. The sigil is not just a mere mark but a coloration of the creator's approach to the Weave and desire to be perceived in its mastery. The sigil can be viewed by the gifted to see the creator's aura, like a 3d image, showing the thematic style of the maker. All the spells are flavored this way... as are the items of power wrought by these individuals.

While a student may use the materials and instruction of a master to produce very similar effects, the student subtly, perhaps even unconsciously, alters the variations to produce an effect that is his and his alone. In such a way are the auras unique for spells, created items, and the sigils. As such, they need not only be visual cues - we have five senses, after all. As examples of what I mean, here are some items I have altered or created for my game:
quote:
Appearance: The leather tubular bracers have obviously been hardened using the cuir bouilli method. Embossed into each is a horizontal baton tightly bound by several cords wrapped around their length.
Aura: A black field emanates from the bracers as the cords unravel and flail about the surface to reveal the baton to be a nine-tailed whip with vicious barbs at their ends. Tears appear at the edges of the bracers where the barbs “land” but close within seconds to leave no lasting damage.
DM Info: The symbol is of Loviatar (Know Religion DC15). Once per day the wearer of this item can use the Maximize Spell feat on any conjuration (healing) spell of 6th level or lower he casts. The spell being maximized uses its normal spell slot (not a slot three levels higher as using the feat normally would require). A bard or sorcerer still must pay the penalty of an extended casting time when using this item.
Nomenclature: Armbands of Maximized Healing

quote:
Appearance: The golden hoop consists of three beaded wires, joined together at the back and branching out at the shoulders. The middle wire is flattened out below. The spaces on the shoulders are filigree double spirals of beaded wire interspersed with pellets. The bezel is in the form of an oval box-setting, with an obliquely fluted rim round the base. It contains a deep green square cut stone.
Aura: Miniature blue spikes cover the flat surfaces of the and the ring feels prickly and uncomfortable to touch outside of the ring. The smooth inner surface is unblemished.
DM Info: This emerald gold ring provides its wearer with a +2 enhancement bonus to Charisma. It also allows its wearer to cast Dominate Person 1/day (DC 17) and Suggestion 1/day (DC 15).
Nomenclature: Ring of Human Influence

quote:
Appearance: An ancient type of short sword with a fairly wide, double-edged, parallel blade and a rounded or spatulate tip, 14” in length (the entire weapon is 20” long), this archaic short sword is also characterized by a unique two-lobed pommel. The deep gray blade is a cut and thrust iron weapon, but also useful for slashing (draw cutting) and to a lesser degree, hacking and cutting.
Aura: The steel blade distorts all who are reflected upon its surface, shading their appearance blue and twisting their faces into leering, laughing caricatures. The faint aura even causes a slight sound of distant, manic laughter.
DM Info: First used by wild tribesmen in Vaasa, the Ride, and Vilholn Reach during the Silver Age of Netheril the akinakes (1d6,19-20x2,3lb) is an iron sword found in many lands of the East well into the time of Dale Reckoning, remaining a popular sidearm for cavalry. When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.
Nomenclature: Short Sword of Quickness +2

quote:
Appearance: These heavy bolts are fastened with copper sheathed lead heads. The barbed heads are designed to go in easily, but come out only with effort. They have backwards- pointing barbs for this reason, and the wound is often torn larger in an attempt to remove them. When removing a barbed arrow, the pain level is sure to be unbearable.
Aura: A little figure crawls amongst the bolts, leaping from one and climbing onto another. The mottled colors of brown and red splay across its sinewy body as it cavorts and cackles. The demonic features are unsettling as it glares up at you and smiles revealing sharp fangs before it dives into the bundle and disappears.
DM Info: A heal check (DC11 + original damage) is necessary to avoid doing half the original damage again (minimum 1) to the victim. Other than that they are +1 bolts suitable for crossbows from medium to heavy in design.
Nomenclature: Barbed Bolts +1

quote:
Appearance: The odd shape of this item looks like the contour for the stock of a light crossbow. This stock is composed of a dull grey metal capped by a greenish gemstone with black mottling and gold flecks. The stone is a flawless triangle cut but the metal has strange wrinkles and lines with an overall light weight and lack of heft that belies its metallic nature.
Aura: A strange aura shapes the space around the item to fill in the missing prod, string, and nut of the crossbow in a sickly green glow.
DM Info: Black opal provides +1 ECL for Force effect spells. 1st Level (2nd ECL) Magic Missile 1d4+1 Range 120 feet. 12 Charges The stock is a soft wood wrapped in lead foil.
Nomenclature: Wand of Magic Missiles

quote:
Appearance: This small shield is a circular dome of leather 1 foot in diameter with wood backing and a metal cap in the center. The metal knob grip under the shield allows for quick directional changes of the shield while maintaining control during jarring hits.
Aura: There is an oscillating buzzing noise heard from this device and an occasional pop coincides with a green spark arcing across the surface of the shield.
DM Info: The user of this shield is granted the Combat Expertise feat for free - up to +2 of your Base Attack Bonus can be applied to the shield as an armor bonus.
Nomenclature: Buckler of Blocking +2

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2014 :  23:57:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra's thrice-damned curse helped discourage forgeries and frauds involving wizard sigils, circa 2E lore.

I've had players sometimes interested in knowing how far illusions and divinations could be embedded within otherwise "passive" sigils.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  02:14:08  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Mystra's thrice-damned curse helped discourage forgeries and frauds involving wizard sigils, circa 2E lore...


Yeah?.. but, what are they good for?

The only thing I got out of the sigils, due to the omniscient vigilance provided by a major deity, is prevention of counterfeiting. Crazy idea, pre-4th-edition-jackassery Halruaa minted fiat currency on otherwise worthless materials (paper, rock, lead) with several mages dedicated to the task of putting their sigils on the money. The value of the money is dictated by Halruaa and anyone attempting to make forgeries will have to face the curse for copying the sigils... for each piece of currency counterfeited. Other than that nation of the mages, by the mages, and for the mages, I don't see anywhere else able to pull this off for any length of time that would matter to national interest.

So, if sigils are not part of something else then what do they do?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  13:20:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Mystra's thrice-damned curse helped discourage forgeries and frauds involving wizard sigils, circa 2E lore...


Yeah?.. but, what are they good for?

The only thing I got out of the sigils, due to the omniscient vigilance provided by a major deity, is prevention of counterfeiting. Crazy idea, pre-4th-edition-jackassery Halruaa minted fiat currency on otherwise worthless materials (paper, rock, lead) with several mages dedicated to the task of putting their sigils on the money. The value of the money is dictated by Halruaa and anyone attempting to make forgeries will have to face the curse for copying the sigils... for each piece of currency counterfeited. Other than that nation of the mages, by the mages, and for the mages, I don't see anywhere else able to pull this off for any length of time that would matter to national interest.

So, if sigils are not part of something else then what do they do?



I would say who in their right mind would print currency on something that you can just tear up like paper..... but.....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  16:55:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Mystra's thrice-damned curse helped discourage forgeries and frauds involving wizard sigils, circa 2E lore...


Yeah?.. but, what are they good for?

The only thing I got out of the sigils, due to the omniscient vigilance provided by a major deity, is prevention of counterfeiting. Crazy idea, pre-4th-edition-jackassery Halruaa minted fiat currency on otherwise worthless materials (paper, rock, lead) with several mages dedicated to the task of putting their sigils on the money. The value of the money is dictated by Halruaa and anyone attempting to make forgeries will have to face the curse for copying the sigils... for each piece of currency counterfeited. Other than that nation of the mages, by the mages, and for the mages, I don't see anywhere else able to pull this off for any length of time that would matter to national interest.

So, if sigils are not part of something else then what do they do?



They are magical signatures. You could use your sigil to mark possessions, or sign letters, or sign your handiwork... Put it on a magical sword, everyone knows it's your handiwork. Put your sigil on a warded doorway, everyone knows who did it. Put it on your spellbook, everyone knows it's yours.

It's like a real-world digital signature, on a file. Except you are less cursed if you can fake one of those.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  19:52:58  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly Rupert, if I'm reading your response correctly, you're saying that the marks confer knowledge on the viewer. I thought that a random serf who sees the Þ mark scrawled on a fence post thinks, "huh, wonder what that's about." Instead, you're saying the serf upon seeing the Þ mark thinks, "Archmage Slartibartfast of Moondale placed that symbol there... How did I know that name? I never heard of the guy before this. Huh, weird."

But, aside from whether or not viewing the Þ sigil conveys special information onto the viewer that the viewer did not previously have before seeing Þ, what good are the sigils other than to prevent forgery? Making and placing the sigil requires the Arcane Mark spell which is not available to all arcanists. Sorcerers in particular are left wanting since they have access to only a select few spells. That is an investment of power and time for which those who can conjure intense heat from nothing, command otherwordly beings, create matter, and beguile sophonts with just a glance have better means at their disposal or more pressing matters to attend.

What if the sigil is more than just a sigil? The flavor of magic, the aura left behind, the formulation and formation of casting spells - are these not all as much of an arcanist's identity as his written signature? But this argument goes back to my original post and the reference of the prior scrolls in pointing out a crunchy mechanic to what was otherwise superfluous color that had no effect whatsoever on gameplay. When the effects of sigils show up in gameplay attached to all weave use, then it matters as something more than fluff. I proposed spells, magic items, and magical auras are extensions... no, inexorably intertwined with sigils.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  21:20:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Wooly Rupert, if I'm reading your response correctly, you're saying that the marks confer knowledge on the viewer. I thought that a random serf who sees the Þ mark scrawled on a fence post thinks, "huh, wonder what that's about." Instead, you're saying the serf upon seeing the Þ mark thinks, "Archmage Slartibartfast of Moondale placed that symbol there... How did I know that name? I never heard of the guy before this. Huh, weird."


It wouldn't automatically convey knowledge about who crafted the sigil. You'd still have to know your stuff to know whether it was Slartibartfast or Arthur Dent or someone else.

If you knew about mage sigils, though, you'd recognize that some mage had crafted that mark.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

But, aside from whether or not viewing the Þ sigil conveys special information onto the viewer that the viewer did not previously have before seeing Þ, what good are the sigils other than to prevent forgery? Making and placing the sigil requires the Arcane Mark spell which is not available to all arcanists. Sorcerers in particular are left wanting since they have access to only a select few spells. That is an investment of power and time for which those who can conjure intense heat from nothing, command otherwordly beings, create matter, and beguile sophonts with just a glance have better means at their disposal or more pressing matters to attend.


Again, think of it like a signature. It could be a sign that you were there, a sign that something was owned or created by you, a sign that you have warded something... Or it could be used the same way signatures on documents are used.

I, personally, would allow pretty much any arcane caster to be able to create a mage sigil. Keep in mind that all of the rules and such concerning mage sigils also date to a time when all arcane casters in the game had to sit and memorize their spells beforehand, whether a generalist mage or some sort of specialist like an illusionist or a diviner. Spontaneous casters with smaller spell lists did not exist in the game, at that point.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

What if the sigil is more than just a sigil? The flavor of magic, the aura left behind, the formulation and formation of casting spells - are these not all as much of an arcanist's identity as his written signature? But this argument goes back to my original post and the reference of the prior scrolls in pointing out a crunchy mechanic to what was otherwise superfluous color that had no effect whatsoever on gameplay. When the effects of sigils show up in gameplay attached to all weave use, then it matters as something more than fluff. I proposed spells, magic items, and magical auras are extensions... no, inexorably intertwined with sigils.


Mage sigils are one of those things added more for flavor than for actual utility. It's like the option of having green fireballs, screaming acid arrows, or even a delicately filigreed breastplate -- extra rules for further immersion and added flavor.

The aura left behind by a caster isn't something I've seen referenced in fiction before, but I would imagine that is something that could be suppressed, and/or that would fade over time -- like a perfume lingering in the air. But like a perfume, only the most sensitive sort would be able to pick out the tiny variations that separate some brands. Multiple people with similar mindsets, trained by the same mentor, could have similar auras, for example.

As for the flavor of the magic -- the way D&D magic is broken into schools would, I think, would prevent detection of an individual caster's personal flavor. I should think that a caster casting a protective spell on a companion, for example, would have a very different flavor from the same person casting a necromantic spell.

Other factors could also come into play, here... My current character is a gun mage; one of their abilities is that they can cast some spells into bullets, and the spell goes off when the bullet hits the target. So casting a scorching ray directly at a foe may have a different effect than casting that same scorching ray into a runecast bullet and then shooting the bad guy with it (related note: there's something a lot of fun about shooting someone with a touch spell like vampiric touch! ).

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2014 :  01:03:05  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A wizard's sigil can provide a lot of information about his spellcraft, magical capacities, even his personality, preferences, and personal history. It might even be used as a sympathetic link to affect him with spells and rituals over unerring distance. It could be used for more banal purposes such as mislabeling a spellbook to increase its sale value. They were of greater consequence back in the mysterious-and-exotic-magic of AD&D 1E/2E days, before D&D 3E/etc reformatted magic as a predictably-reproducible-and-routine matter.

Being disinterested in using such magical signatures is, in my opinion, a loss of much of the depth and flavour which should be present in a high-magic fantasy setting. There must indeed be good reason why deities of magic once took these apparently trivial matters quite seriously.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2014 :  13:23:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I've never used them, BUT in a realms campaign I'd have it that knowledge (arcana), knowledge (nobility & royalty), and for "historical" wizards knowledge (history) or "today's" wizards knowledge (local) could all uncover who made a sigil (with penalties on the history and local checks)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2014 :  11:31:11  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Again, think of it like a signature...

Arcane Mark is a signature. We don't need Wizards Sigils for that. Just like "Art" and "teh(sic) Art" repeatedly referenced in all the canon Forgotten Realms sources for magic when it is SO not artistic or creative in any way shape or form. The science of dabbling with unseen powers and experimenting with the puzzles of incantations is hard and cold compared to any of the liberal arts. That is the box we are currently in. How about we get out of that box?

Clinging to handy little tricks that made rules easier to look up and understand and turning them into be-all-end-all divisions of segregation that solidly divide everything in black and white sacrifices the fiction which is the only thing suspending our disbelief in the fictional world of my game. "Schools" of magic is a handy look up for us regarding spell effects. Divination, necromancy, enchantment are monickers for our sake. How do these "schools" make anything different for a priest of Bane? Now, how about a wizard especially since a wizard cannot just use another wizards spellbook unless he translates those notes into a form useable by him?

Which. Goes. Back. To. My. First. Post.

Unless you are making the argument that magic use was not really an art and it was a mistake for it to ever be called that and spells are cookie-cutter play shapes. And even though auras existed as far back as 2nd ed to my recollection under Detect Magic (my memory of 1st ed is to hazy to remember) the description is just like that of Mage Sigils - fluff. I've already got the regular rules from WoTC for that.

I am proposing something different that works within the rules. Something that is akin to bands having a certain sound that their fans can identify as the band's even though they have never heard that song before. That sigils are not a standalone but are like the hood ornament of the car manufacturer. That a spellcasters approach to magic is like an artists approach to art regardless of the medium - influenced by the teachers and masters but ultimately unique to the individual.

After all, why would all magic missile spells across thousands of years be the exact same formula and effect? Would that also not be true for +1 longswords made centuries apart? Are all your potions of cure light wounds the same color with the same texture, taste, and smell? And why would an item with which an arcane caster spent weeks of time and magical power to create not show any sign of its creator (and before you say "well he would have left a sigil like a digital signature" I shall point out that there are no mentions of these things on any magic items anywhere in fiction sources or official gaming material that would clue us in about needing to do so for our own games).

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000