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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 21:35:30
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In specific:
Cyric was fooled by the Cyrinishad into thinking he personally killed Myrkul and Bane. Unless you're claiming that Cyric didn't believe the Cyrinishad because it violated his portfolio sense?
In general:
The fatal problem of the straightforward story of Leira-killed-by-Cyric-with-Mask is that it is straightforward. It is bad writing for the story of the betrayal of the goddess of illusion and deception, by the god of intrigue, to lack uncertainty. Making it a story of bluff, smoke and mirrors, and a long con fixes that bad writing.
And if Leira comes out announcing she was never killed to begin with . . . well, if she was restored by Ao, her lying about it is hardly unexpected, no? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 22:50:55
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| Just one point. Mystra was believed dead by the rest of the gods, who was answering the prayers of her faithful in her absence? Could not leira pull off the same trick? I would imagine that her trick would be far more impressive. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:01:10
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It's one thing to fool other deities about something that is your portfolio in a way that does not affect theirs (e.g. hiding from the rest of the pantheon while there is no other deity with the portfolio "knowing all the time where everyone is").
It's quite a different thing to fool a fellow deitiy about her own portfolio and even doing it to a superior deity.
A stronger deity may trump a weaker deity due to simply having more phenomenal cosmic power than the lesser one.
Or a normally weaker deity may trump a normally stronger deity when it's specifically about her portfolio and not about the stronger deity's portfolio (homefield advantage making up for difference in phenomenal cosmic power).
A stronger deity acting her own portfolio trumps a weaker deity acting her own porftolio if they directly clash (double homefield advantage cancelling each other and the direct comparision of phenomenal cosmic power is once again due)
Anyway, what's with all the Leira worship her anyway? Did she ever do something? IIRC she was mentioned in a few short places in the OGB and then again only as Cyric's murder victims. I could understand people getting upset over the loss of a prominent deity who had a lot of screentime to become popular before her death. But a deity that was basically only a footnote before gaining a little promince for the very fact that she was dead now?
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Edited by - Mirtek on 08 Aug 2014 23:06:48 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:14:54
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| I think people like to use her in their campaigns. Good for tricking pc's etc. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Anyway, what's with all the Leira worship her anyway? Did she ever do something? IIRC she was mentioned in a few short places in the OGB and then again only as Cyric's murder victims. I could understand people getting upset over the loss of a prominent deity who had a lot of screentime to become popular before her death. But a deity that was basically only a footnote before gaining a little promince for the very fact that she was dead now?
Well Leira is detailed quite nicely in Faith&Avatars too (even tho that was after her disappearence), so she has ample space to be read about and liked. Also maybe people liked her theme and were disappointed when she was removed because of a D&D rules change. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Aug 2014 23:47:36 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:11:01
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I guess since it's acceptabel to change font size and color and not be taken as 'yelling' I will do the same. Everyone has an opinion. Just because someone else's opinion differs from someone else's doesn't make it 'wrong' or 'cheesy' or 'bad' it just means it's different than yours.
The various holders of the DnD brand have been printing sub-optimal stories for decades now. I read the Avatar trilogy. Guess what. Bane was DEAD. Bhaal was DEAD. Myrkul was DEAD. And so were a host of others. Yet few are really batting an eye that all of them, among others, were written back into the setting in one fashion or another.
And now folks balk at and accuse, yes accuse, others of saying that all canon material stating a deity is dead is considered 'wrong' and yet, I have not once seen anyone say that material was wrong. I've seen folks try to imagine (fancy using one's imagination in a fantasy game, the horror) a plot in which it could be possible that Leira didn't die (as has been done with other deities) and for some reason...when it comes to Leira...there's a problem with it.
I just don't get it. It's not that YOU are wrong...your point is quite valid. But let's not put words into people's mouths okay? No one said the source material was wrong or mistaken in any fashion...not once that I can recall. They've only tried to come up with something plausible to explain her return...and those reasons are no less cheesy than Bhaal's return who has been 'dead' just as long.
As for Ao. He is incrutable. There's no good reason [on one side] for him to lie and yet there's no good reason [on the other side] for him not too lie/deceive either. A very good point was made (IMO) that he does not interfere...that's reason enough for him not to tell the 'truth' to the gods...it's their place to figure it all out. Ao is just there to make sure the world doesn't blow up or something. And even that is questionable as he evidently didn't interfere with Shar's plans to destroy the world either. Why wouldn't he decieve them?
Just my opinion but I think handwaving her back is just as cheesy as a grand plot on her part to deceive Cyric etc. If it comes down to one of those two, however, give me the grand plot because I do think she could have pulled it off...I mean Bhaal survived over a century of 'death' why not her. However, the best option to me is for her to somehow have survived in the Cyrinishad but inadvertently. Perhaps Cyric placed a semblance of her ego within it and she managed to survive because of him. It's both ironic and plays into his madness that he killed her and yet kept her alive unintentionally. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:43:09
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| My guess is that it will be kept vauge in purpose, it is hard to explain logically but fan demand wanted these folks back . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 04:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I guess since it's acceptabel to change font size and color and not be taken as 'yelling' I will do the same. Everyone has an opinion. Just because someone else's opinion differs from someone else's doesn't make it 'wrong' or 'cheesy' or 'bad' it just means it's different than yours.
The various holders of the DnD brand have been printing sub-optimal stories for decades now. I read the Avatar trilogy. Guess what. Bane was DEAD. Bhaal was DEAD. Myrkul was DEAD. And so were a host of others. Yet few are really batting an eye that all of them, among others, were written back into the setting in one fashion or another.
And now folks balk at and accuse, yes accuse, others of saying that all canon material stating a deity is dead is considered 'wrong' and yet, I have not once seen anyone say that material was wrong. I've seen folks try to imagine (fancy using one's imagination in a fantasy game, the horror) a plot in which it could be possible that Leira didn't die (as has been done with other deities) and for some reason...when it comes to Leira...there's a problem with it.
I just don't get it. It's not that YOU are wrong...your point is quite valid. But let's not put words into people's mouths okay? No one said the source material was wrong or mistaken in any fashion...not once that I can recall. They've only tried to come up with something plausible to explain her return...and those reasons are no less cheesy than Bhaal's return who has been 'dead' just as long.
As for Ao. He is incrutable. There's no good reason [on one side] for him to lie and yet there's no good reason [on the other side] for him not too lie/deceive either. A very good point was made (IMO) that he does not interfere...that's reason enough for him not to tell the 'truth' to the gods...it's their place to figure it all out. Ao is just there to make sure the world doesn't blow up or something. And even that is questionable as he evidently didn't interfere with Shar's plans to destroy the world either. Why wouldn't he decieve them?
Just my opinion but I think handwaving her back is just as cheesy as a grand plot on her part to deceive Cyric etc. If it comes down to one of those two, however, give me the grand plot because I do think she could have pulled it off...I mean Bhaal survived over a century of 'death' why not her. However, the best option to me is for her to somehow have survived in the Cyrinishad but inadvertently. Perhaps Cyric placed a semblance of her ego within it and she managed to survive because of him. It's both ironic and plays into his madness that he killed her and yet kept her alive unintentionally.
Changing the font was not deliberate. It's a bit of wonkiness in the site code that is caused by too many quotes in one post.
We have multiple sources saying Leira is dead, so any elaborate plot based on her faking it is saying that canon is wrong.
I don't see how telling the truth is interfering... But lying on her behalf would be interfering, because it would stop deities from looking for her and give her time and room for this inexplicable plot.
And Bhaal didn't survive. He was dead and came back. That is not the same as being alive the whole time.
If Leira had some bit of her essence stored away somewhere and used it as a seed to be reborn, that's plausible. And if that acceptable for Bhaal, then it wouldn't be handwaving to bring her back that way.
I have absolutely no objection to Leira returning from the dead. I just can't understand the insistence on making a case for her faking it for all this time, especially when that case relies on the premise that all the printed material is wrong.
I've said more than once that I'm happy to play in grey areas... Someone vanishing without a trace is a grey area. There's room to play there. If Leira had simply vanished, and nothing definitive was stated about her fate, I'd not say a word about the idea of her faking her death. But multiple statements of her death, in-setting and out, are pretty definitive. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Aug 2014 05:00:03 |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 05:10:41
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| On the other hand, Wooly, we are talking about a reboot of a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. I wouldn't be too surprised if the 'new take on the world' may throw canonistas for a big loop - particularly if they're trying to reset a few things back to the 2nd edition take like they appear to be doing. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 05:13:00
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| I suggest we all let the Leira debate die. There are obviously those who find her survival plausible, and even preferable. There are others who will never accept that conclusion no matter how much we argue so its time to move on. All of our ideas have been stated and restated for YEARS now. In the end it will all be mute anyways. |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 05:19:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I suggest we all let the Leira debate die. There are obviously those who find her survival plausible, and even preferable. There are others who will never accept that conclusion no matter how much we argue so its time to move on. All of our ideas have been stated and restated for YEARS now. In the end it will all be mute anyways.
And that's exactly the way she would want it... no one would ever know... :)
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 11:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think you can take pretty much all of those arguments can be answered by our debate about a few weeks ago about Leira in reference to the gathering in which Ao confirmed Leira's murder.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you implying that someone capable of stripping all of the gods of their power could somehow be fooled by a god?
Nope. I was implying that the Goddess of Illusion and Deception could very well fool other gods into thinking they were told something by Ao.
So now you're saying that a lesser power is capable of fooling an entire pantheon at once?
The answer to this question is YES. It is canon, which I know you LOVE above all else Wooly :P.
"Leira is the Goddess of Deception," Oghma noted. This wouldn't be the first time she obscured her whereabouts from us, simply to prove her power to hide outstrips our ability and patience to seek."
She can do so, and has done so before. Once you accept that fact, many of your other arguments about whether she could deceive Cyric about murder seem obvious as well.
We also discussed why Ao would not end her illusion to tell the other Gods the truth, and that is because in the same source we learn that part of what Ao does is NOT intervene when gods are doing what is in their portfolio/nature just because the other gods ask him to. It is in Cyric's nature to murder, Masks to cover it up, and Leira's to let them believe they succeeded. Ao would not reveal her lies and deceptions because Mystra was peaved at Cyric.
Now, in the previous discussion we talked about which sources list her as dead and which say maybe dead and which say BOTH. In the end you said you would not believe she was alive and had deceived everyone until there was a more up to date source confirming her survival... :P Seems like you have that source now. Right?
We also discussed how she could fool Cyric into granting his power to her followers in that earlier thread as well. I think your biggest problem with the whole idea is that she would die because Cyric is answering her prayers and she would lose power. I am of course no expert on such things (Is anyone? :P), but I think as part of her deception she could let him eavesdrop on all her faithful's prayers and let him grant spells for her thinking they are now his faithful. This would allow her to devote more power into her deception or some other unknown task. She could also be whispering to them things he doesn't know...
In all, I find it personally powerful that any god would say DAMN this is a mess. Gods dying, being born, everything is in upheaval and the only way to survive this madness unscathed to to be believed dead already, then bunker down in Limbo and wait it out. Maybe even make a move or two from the shadows.
I don't know how much of this 5th Ed. will answer. Perhaps there will be a novel about the Lady of Mysteries (I'd LOVE that), perhaps there will be a sidebar, perhaps a footnote, perhaps nothing. I'd say that would also be appropriate, leaving it a MYSTERY :D
Gotta say, I'm loving the idea of seeing Leira back. I'd like to see the storyline behind the HOW of it, but there's a lot of ways it could be spun. Personally, my favorite flavor AT THIS MOMENT is that Savras foresaw things going awry and his own death if not aided by Leira SOMEHOW in the moments leading to Mystra 2's death (for which, I either imagine she "rode" in on Cyric to Mystra's domain and helped Savras escape.... or that she came in separately using subterfuge). Thus, he clued Leira into an attack by a newly risen mortal turned deity, so that she could fake her own death and thereby save Savras later. That would explain both of them coming back, and Savras may have known this leading INTO the ToT.
On a side note: IF we accept the above that Savras saw these things leading into the ToT..... what if he foresaw that the goddess of magic would be slain? What if he foresaw it and KNEW that the only way for Mystra 1 to be saved was to de-divine herself and let a mortal take her place (i.e. Midnight). I know there were sources in second edition that basically stated that the original Mystra 1 was still around following the ToT as some kind of magical elemental type being that was suffering (which I can't think of the source right now, so if someone else remembers, please post it). It may very well be that Mystra 1 essentially was putting a plan into motion when she attacked Helm and was "destroyed". The returned Mystra may actually be Mystra 1, and the actions of the Simbul were similar to what Mystryl did when she made Mystra (providing a "stable" form in the world with a soul to which she could "bind" herself).
So, in essence, this would explain away the return of Leira, Savras, and Mystra. I've posted in other threads what could be done to kind of explain the supposed death of Velsharoon. That being said, if they don't bring him back.... I'll be sad, but hopefully they replace him with someone else of equal capability. The part about Azuth returning could also be related to all of this as well as seen in that thread (where Escalthar "the black star" who called the blackstar council which formed the Zulkirate is believed to have been an avatar of Azuth... and POSSIBLY said avatar was trapped into the mysterious artifact in Thay beneath Amruthar that quit working after the ToT (granted, he may have LET his avatar be "trapped" if it served the purposes of wizardry)). Another take on that thread would be that Velsharoon may have been attempting to drain said avatar of Escalthar himself in hopes of becoming the god of wizardry... which could explain the Simbul and Velsharoon coming to blows (again, one of many explanations that can be spun up). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 11:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I honestly don't understand why the debate about Leira's death (or lack thereof) keeps getting so heated. However WotC spins it...she's back and there will be a story behind it. They have debunked prior lore in the past and they may debunk the writeup of Leira in the 2e godbooks OR they may say tha Ao handwaved her back into existence.
I see merit on both sides but prefer the idea that she somehow fooled Cyric and many others...but that's just me as I actually really like Leira and have a bias.
I have a feeling she isn't going to be handwaved though. I think we're going to find that some part of her essence was lodged in the Cyrinishad (likely unintentionally) and that portion of her survived intact AND that there were still a small amount of devout followers somewhere (maybe Nimbral...assuming it's still around somewhere).
Yeah, I like the idea that the Cyrinishad was an "avatar" of sorts of her. Oh, and as to her worshippers, don't forget the moon as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 12:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat this deity was somehow stripped of her portfolios despite still being around?
Was she? Written down on the Tablets of Fate that she didn't have the portfolio anymore, was it? Cyric certainly thought he was exercising the office, yes. He believed a lot of things that may or may not have been true.
So, here let me spin you a story:
The goddess Leira, a goddess of magic of long standing as the goddess of illusionists, knew much about the upcoming trouble with the Weave, and that this would devastate her most devout worshipers. She also saw the destruction of the Tablets of Fate, of course, as a result of the Mount Waterdeep incident. (Perhaps she even foresaw this, as what the gods who stole the Tablets believed about them was false, and they of course engaged in deception as part of their plot.) And Shar, moving in secret, trying to build a Shadow Weave (suited for illusion magic, incidentally), that too she may well have seen. So between these, Leira saw an era of dangerous upheaval coming . . . and decided to exploit it to her advantage and amusement. She accordingly faked her own death at the hands of the newly-risen (and thus inexperienced and easy-to-mislead) Cyric. Hiding in Cyric's own presence (more effectively than Godsbane/Mask, as was only appropriate), she proceeded to twist and manipulate the new dark god, stage-managing the creation of a relic of deception so powerful it could twist the beliefs of gods themselves. (And, perhaps, gave her the chance to take the portfolio of intrigue to herself, because she managed to snare Mask in her intrigue.) Along the way, she used her powers to trick the other gods, even using her illusions to fake them into thinking Ao had confirmed her death.
I don't think we need to assume that she faked Ao. It is a possibility I'd say, but not at all necessary. The questions are these: Would Ao lie? Why not? Would Ao tell half-truths? Who is to say? What exactly did Ao confirm? He said that Cyric murdered Leira and Mask covered it up.
At no point did he say that Cyric murdered Leira in reality. So, Cyric, hunting Leira walks into an illusion spun by the goddess of illusion herself. (Really, why would she ever let a god everyone knows wants power to come anywhere near her?) Kills the Leira of that illusionary reality and goes on his way convinced that he is much man.
Confirming before the gods that this happened and not mentioning it was all one of Leira's illusion would not even be a lie. It would be just enough truth to uphold Cyric's position and Mask's position, to respond to Mystra's demand (which apparently they have a right to make of him), and to uphold Leira's perfect deception. This in my mind fits exactly with the lecture he gives Mystra about gods doing what is in their nature to do and it not being his place to interfere.
Just a note here: respond to Mystra's demand (which apparently they have a right to make of him)
Whose to say that they even truly HAVE this right? Whose to say that Leira didn't deceive the gods long ago into BELIEVING that they have this right.... and Ao never bothered to correct their misbelief, because doing so would go against the portfolio of the goddess of lies.
When it comes to deception and lies.... there is so much that can be done.
Oh, and as a side note, seeing Mystra, Azuth, Savras, and Leira back.... personally, I'd like to see a kind of "supernatural" wing of the pantheon which oversees magic in all its forms arise. Throw in Auppenser as a lord of mind magic (maybe he even takes on enchantment/charm?). Have Velsharoon come back as the lord of necromancy.... but possibly also pact magic (my personal lore of Velsharoon has him heavily involved with pact and soul based magics)? Azuth tends to favor transmutation and evocation styles from what I've seen. I could see abjuration going to either Azuth or Savras... or someone else entirely like the red knight (after all, tactics aren't just for mass combat). That would leave Conjuration..... and personally, Halaster Blackcloak would just fit that cup of tea. These last two choices, I won't say I'm smitten with, so if anyone else can think of better choices there, I'm listening. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 12:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I honestly don't understand why the debate about Leira's death (or lack thereof) keeps getting so heated. However WotC spins it...she's back and there will be a story behind it. They have debunked prior lore in the past and they may debunk the writeup of Leira in the 2e godbooks OR they may say tha Ao handwaved her back into existence.
I see merit on both sides but prefer the idea that she somehow fooled Cyric and many others...but that's just me as I actually really like Leira and have a bias.
I have a feeling she isn't going to be handwaved though. I think we're going to find that some part of her essence was lodged in the Cyrinishad (likely unintentionally) and that portion of her survived intact AND that there were still a small amount of devout followers somewhere (maybe Nimbral...assuming it's still around somewhere).
I get that you like Leira, and I don't mind having her come back, but I'm totally on Wooly's side here. The whole scenario of Leira neglecting her worshippers for 100 years to play some master trick on Cyric is utterly ridiculous, and it would be poor writing. What would even be the point in revealing herself now?
Cyric has only proven himself to be more dangerous since he murdered Leira. There's no good way to explain why she would just now tip her hand, when Cyric or Mask could easily take revenge on her. Only if everyone who had been after Leira was dead, or severely depowered, would it make sense for her to return.
I just can't understand why so many people complained endlessly about bad storytelling in 4e, and now they beg for it in 5e. Most people seem to be ok with Ao handwaving everything back to how it was (despite the very idea of Ao being hated in 2e), or with random, nonsensical ways to explain sweeping changes. At the end of the day, more bad storytelling won't solve any problems.
The one factor in this... you don't see why she would do it? What if it was the only way she saw for herself to survive? After all, Shar would have gobbled her up quick if she'd limped away from her combat with Cyric. Faking her death may have been the best survival technique. I can honestly say that the best tactics I EVER used with Sleyvas were "can't find me, can't kill me", in which I would use every spell I could find to remove my visibility, remove the ability to defeat my invisibility, remove my scent, nullify any sounds I made, put up abjurations that prevented trying to divine my location, make myself able to phase through earth, and then go into the ground and attack people using magics that didn't reveal my presence. I'd expect Leira to be able to take these concepts even further. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 14:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The one factor in this... you don't see why she would do it? What if it was the only way she saw for herself to survive? After all, Shar would have gobbled her up quick if she'd limped away from her combat with Cyric. Faking her death may have been the best survival technique. I can honestly say that the best tactics I EVER used with Sleyvas were "can't find me, can't kill me", in which I would use every spell I could find to remove my visibility, remove the ability to defeat my invisibility, remove my scent, nullify any sounds I made, put up abjurations that prevented trying to divine my location, make myself able to phase through earth, and then go into the ground and attack people using magics that didn't reveal my presence. I'd expect Leira to be able to take these concepts even further.
Yes, I don't see how giving up the portfolios that give her power and not getting power from worshipers for more than a century is a viable plan for survival. Slowly starving to death and cutting yourself off from all possible food sources are not survival tactics.
I agree that Leira could hide better than anyone else... But we have multiple canon sources, in-setting and out, saying she is dead. We have absolutely nothing that indicates she is alive. We have someone else with her portfolios, we have someone else answering the prayers of her followers. Given all that, I can't understand why anyone would think she isn't dead. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 16:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by see
In specific:
Cyric was fooled by the Cyrinishad into thinking he personally killed Myrkul and Bane. Unless you're claiming that Cyric didn't believe the Cyrinishad because it violated his portfolio sense?
In general:
The fatal problem of the straightforward story of Leira-killed-by-Cyric-with-Mask is that it is straightforward. It is bad writing for the story of the betrayal of the goddess of illusion and deception, by the god of intrigue, to lack uncertainty. Making it a story of bluff, smoke and mirrors, and a long con fixes that bad writing.
And if Leira comes out announcing she was never killed to begin with . . . well, if she was restored by Ao, her lying about it is hardly unexpected, no?
I agree that it was originally done poorly. But going back, after well over 100 years in the timeline, and having Leira reveal herself wouldn't make any sense. As stated before, she's lost a ton of worshippers in that time. And there would have to be some explanation as to:
a) why she pulled such a risky stunt in the 1st place, and risked dying from lack of worship
AND
b) why she feels it's safe to come out of hiding now, when her would-be assassins are still alive, and more powerful than ever! If she was scared of Cyric before, she should be mortified now that he's proven himself dangerous enough to slay Mystra in Dweomerheart. Why reveal herself now? |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 18:29:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
[quote]Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I honestly don't understand why the debate about Leira's death (or lack thereof) keeps getting so heated. However WotC spins it...she's back and there will be a story behind it. They have debunked prior lore in the past and they may debunk the writeup of Leira in the 2e godbooks OR they may say tha Ao handwaved her back into existence.
I see merit on both sides but prefer the idea that she somehow fooled Cyric and many others...but that's just me as I actually really like Leira and have a bias.
I have a feeling she isn't going to be handwaved though. I think we're going to find that some part of her essence was lodged in the Cyrinishad (likely unintentionally) and that portion of her survived intact AND that there were still a small amount of devout followers somewhere (maybe Nimbral...assuming it's still around somewhere).
I get that you like Leira, and I don't mind having her come back, but I'm totally on Wooly's side here. The whole scenario of Leira neglecting her worshippers for 100 years to play some master trick on Cyric is utterly ridiculous, and it would be poor writing. What would even be the point in revealing herself now?
Cyric has only proven himself to be more dangerous since he murdered Leira. There's no good way to explain why she would just now tip her hand, when Cyric or Mask could easily take revenge on her. Only if everyone who had been after Leira was dead, or severely depowered, would it make sense for her to return.
I just can't understand why so many people complained endlessly about bad storytelling in 4e, and now they beg for it in 5e. Most people seem to be ok with Ao handwaving everything back to how it was (despite the very idea of Ao being hated in 2e), or with random, nonsensical ways to explain sweeping changes. At the end of the day, more bad storytelling won't solve any problems.
The one factor in this... you don't see why she would do it? What if it was the only way she saw for herself to survive? After all, Shar would have gobbled her up quick if she'd limped away from her combat with Cyric. Faking her death may have been the best survival technique. I can honestly say that the best tactics I EVER used with Sleyvas were "can't find me, can't kill me", in which I would use every spell I could find to remove my visibility, remove the ability to defeat my invisibility, remove my scent, nullify any sounds I made, put up abjurations that prevented trying to divine my location, make myself able to phase through earth, and then go into the ground and attack people using magics that didn't reveal my presence. I'd expect Leira to be able to take these concepts even further.
I get what you're saying, and that would have been a good way to write the story way back then. As a retcon, it would just tell fans that we can never really trust anything the setting tells us. So in the future, even if authors or designers (or even Ed!) clarify something and insist upon it being set in stone, fans won't believe them.
Also, consider this: in the Sundering series (and beforehand in the Twilight War trilogy), Shar makes 2 concerted efforts to destroy the world, and 1 attempt to take over the Weave (basically making herself the most powerful god by far). Chosen of Mask, Lathander, Mystra, Sune, Helm, Siamorphe, and even the vile usurper Cyric all combated Shar's attempts. Where was Leira? Why would she not appear when Shar seemed on the verge of victory?
(We'll set aside for now the fact that Shar's certified archnemesis, Selune, does jack to prevent Shar from taking over the world. For crying out loud, Siamorphe got more spotlight than Selune in the Sundering books!!)
I just doubt there is a believable way to explain why Leira is popping up now. Her best chance to reappear would have been right after the Spellplague hit. Cyric was imprisoned at that point, and every deity was keeping a watchful eye on him after all the trouble he caused. Shar was still formidable, but no more so than she is now. And Mask, who might also seek revenge, had vanished. Coming back now doesn't solve any of Leira's problems. She is still just as big a target as when she vanished, so she concocted that elaborate ruse for nothing. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 18:47:24
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Sure, all those chosen of other gods made open attempts against Shar. Leira ISN'T that kind of goddess. She's not open and in your face. That's why everything I'm stating puts her behind the scenes and working to aid other deities (or in some cases Ao himself). In the end, she may have built up a certain amount of respect from other deities whom she aided from the background (such as Mystra, Savras, possibly Azuth, and possibly others depending on how you spin the story, such as Mask, Gargauth, Velsharoon, etc...). As a result, when she returns, she has allies who may join with her if Shar were to turn against her (unlike right after the ToT when no one would have lifted a finger).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 21:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Sure, all those chosen of other gods made open attempts against Shar. Leira ISN'T that kind of goddess. She's not open and in your face. That's why everything I'm stating puts her behind the scenes and working to aid other deities (or in some cases Ao himself). In the end, she may have built up a certain amount of respect from other deities whom she aided from the background (such as Mystra, Savras, possibly Azuth, and possibly others depending on how you spin the story, such as Mask, Gargauth, Velsharoon, etc...). As a result, when she returns, she has allies who may join with her if Shar were to turn against her (unlike right after the ToT when no one would have lifted a finger).
Now that is a story I can buy!! If something like that had been hinted at in any of the Sundering novels, it would be excellent. But what they are likely going to do (if they bring Leira back) is either handwave her into existence by Ao, OR reveal that she's actually been doing stuff behind the scenes all along (just like your scenario).
My issue is that it's lazy storytelling. Don't know if you're a horror movie fan, but it's like Scream 3. Somebody pops out of the woodwork and is revealed to have been the puppetmaster all along. Now if it's something like Ed did with Larloch in the Herald, that's different. I can accept that with characters who we've seen pull strings from the shadows expertly before.
I'm not against Leira's return at all. I would have loved for her to be used in the Sundering series. What bothers me is the idea of bringing her back in a sloppy, rushed manner. Example: neither the death of Mask, nor the return of Mask, bothered me, because both were handled well (although a few more details about his return would be nice). |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 04:43:20
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We interrupt this regularly scheduled discussion of Leira and such for the following halfling themed announcement:
"Yondalla!!!"
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
p.s. Yondalla
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 23:47:40
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I'm thrilled to see both Bhaal and Myrkul are back. :D (As for the latter, two weeks ago I was happy to be in Europe and didn't want to go back to the US. Today I'm happy to be back in the US and don't want to go back to Europe anytime soon. People change their minds all the time. Is it so inconceivable that he'd change his mind about wanting to spend eternity as an artifact?).
As for Tyr, I hope that although he's returned that it's to a reduced role. More along the lines of Jergal rather than as one of the top gods. I much prefer Torm playing the role of the top Lawful Good god, with Bahamut a close second. Both are far more interesting than Tyr. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 00:35:24
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The Wooley Rupert is so hilarious. Arguing about gods being dead.
Ed quote:
"Mystra died. But was alive. After she was killed. She remained alive." |
Edited by - Thorn Illance on 11 Aug 2014 00:36:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:41:15
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| Hmmmm, I'm noticing one deity missing that it took me some time to warm up to, but after learning more about her I REALLY was starting to like her. So much so that I actually had my main character/NPC, Sleyvas, become an artifact devoted to a line of her religion (i.e. Sleyvas became Sleyvas, the Red book of Spell Strategy, <a living spellbook which also had the ability to transform itself into both a longsword and a "Wheel of Spells" card deck>). I am of course speaking of the Red Knight. Hopefully she's not gone. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:54:15
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| In 4e she was an exarch of Tempus. I doubt that they already started killing gods again. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:52:18
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| Yeah, my guess is that she (and every other "minor god" from the 2nd Ed. Powers and Pantheons) still exists but that would be far to long a list to publish in a general source. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 11:08:34
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| For comparison, Sharess and whole racial pantheons (which we know are alive) aren't there. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Aug 2014 11:08:48 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 13:00:51
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| I would caution folks not to read anything into any specific deity's absence from the list. First of all, it's the Player's Handbook; we can't reasonably expect a comprehensive listing of all of the setting's divinities to appear there. Second, and more importantly, from the very first day of this edition we have a deity (Hoar) sponsoring paladins as part of the Order of the Gauntlet in the Tyranny of Dragons storyline who does not appear on that PH table of FR gods. If he's active in the Realms, but doesn't appear in the Player's Handbook, we can safely assume that omission from the list is by no means a career-damaging insult. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 14:59:07
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| Yeah, they're not about to bring back Azuth, Bhaal, Helm, Lathander, Leira, Mask, Myrkul, Mystra, Talos, and Tyr only to get rid of a whole swathe of other gods. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 15:17:29
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| So, now that basically every god Cyric killed is back... what happens to him? |
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the official god list is....
