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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 22:19:32
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| 5e Player Hanbook. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 22:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertDitto. I want an explanation for how Leira came back
Last time we saw Leira alive, she was the Goddess of Illusion and Deception, supposedly killed by a sword that was secretly the God of Intrigue. The only "confirmation" of her death is the supposed word of a being beyond the ability of the gods to compel to tell the truth, and we know gods can be faked out by illusions in Cynosure because Mask and Mystra did such fakery.
Are you implying that someone capable of stripping all of the gods of their power could somehow be fooled by a god?
Or are you saying that someone with no reason at all to lie chose to lie, and that the deity of murder somehow didn't know he didn't actually commit murder, and that a deity decided to face a slow, wasting death by not responding to worshipers for more than a century, and that this deity was somehow stripped of her portfolios despite still being around? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Aug 2014 23:01:04 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 23:50:06
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Maybe she was just in a pokeball, and when the tablets of fate were rewritten it did a rewind and restored some things by accident creating old powers in the spots they were and removing others as if they had never had them.
Hence making the demon lord a demon again and not a god, and azuth coming back :) |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 23:50:56
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Oh and here is the world setting for default d&d which may also be for faerun , also is the book index
http://imgur.com/a/W5BQl |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 23:51:27
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| just wondering, where'd the list come from? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 23:53:59
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| Out of curiosity, could you post the pages about the elven subraces? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 00:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
5e Player Hanbook.
Its released? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 00:26:13
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| Some people got it before release. I see this happening with almost every product, it seems that some retailers start selling before the offcial date. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 00:37:21
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| Not something am willing to post at the moment, if you look around am sure you could find them on reddit. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 00:56:53
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| Np, thank you anyway. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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mhamza
Seeker
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 01:24:12
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| So great to see Azuth back, though it'd be interesting to see how he escaped the Hells and how it affects Asmodeus, same goes for Savras and Velsharoon. As it's already been said Vhaeraun and Kiaransalee are all but back meaning the only ones missing are Eilistraee and Selvetarm. I wonder what they're up to... |
Edited by - mhamza on 08 Aug 2014 01:34:50 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 01:39:30
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| I guess we'll have to wait another year, till the FRCG, to find out what WotC wants to do with the Dark Seldarine -if anything, that is- (and Vhaeraun has a chosen, but that doesn't imply that he will automatically be back). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 01:42:53
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quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm happy to see Finder on the list. But I really wish Bhaal had stayed dead and that Myrkul had remained an artifact.
No Lurue or Nobanion...
Didn't Nobanion appear in one of the Sundering novels?
He did make a brief appearance...I believe it was in "The Sentinel" when Kleef and crew were in the forest making their way to the Underchasm.
It was in the reaver, when they were crossing plagueland. The child chosen of Lathander healed the plagueland and Nobanion. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 01:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Auril
azuth
Bane
basheba
bahaal
Chanteua
cyric
denir
Eldath
gond
helm
Illmater
lathander
Leiar
llirra
loviatar
mask
malar
Finder
melilkki
Milili
mrkul
mystrya
oghma
Savras
Selune
shar
silvanus
Sine
tymora
talos
tempura
torm
umberlee
Tyr
wukeen
Will post the other ones when I get home.
COME BACK JEFF GRUBB AND KATE NOVAK, COME BACK!
lol, I am rereading Azure Bonds now.
Had to do something to get "The hot zone" out of my head again. This ebola outbreak is getting real and scary. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 09:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you implying that someone capable of stripping all of the gods of their power could somehow be fooled by a god?
Nope. I was implying that the Goddess of Illusion and Deception could very well fool other gods into thinking they were told something by Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or are you saying that someone with no reason at all to lie chose to lie,
Do we really have any idea whatsoever what Ao's motivations have been for anything? Again, assuming it was Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat the deity of murder somehow didn't know he didn't actually commit murder,
Did Cyric think he murdered Midnight-as-Mystra? You know, the goddess we discovered in the Sundering actually voluntarily withdrew? I know Cyric managed to be deceived about whether he killed Bane and Myrkul by an artifact. So, yeah, I'm certainly going to stand by the idea that a god who has a record of being repeatedly deceived about whom he managed to kill can be deceived about whether he managed to kill the Goddess of Deception with a sword made out of the God of Intrigue.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat a deity decided to face a slow, wasting death by not responding to worshipers for more than a century,
The exact relational mechanism between prayer response, worshipers, power, and time is not known and will never be specified in rules. Stepping out for one century may or may not be a big deal.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat this deity was somehow stripped of her portfolios despite still being around?
Was she? Written down on the Tablets of Fate that she didn't have the portfolio anymore, was it? Cyric certainly thought he was exercising the office, yes. He believed a lot of things that may or may not have been true.
So, here let me spin you a story:
The goddess Leira, a goddess of magic of long standing as the goddess of illusionists, knew much about the upcoming trouble with the Weave, and that this would devastate her most devout worshipers. She also saw the destruction of the Tablets of Fate, of course, as a result of the Mount Waterdeep incident. (Perhaps she even foresaw this, as what the gods who stole the Tablets believed about them was false, and they of course engaged in deception as part of their plot.) And Shar, moving in secret, trying to build a Shadow Weave (suited for illusion magic, incidentally), that too she may well have seen. So between these, Leira saw an era of dangerous upheaval coming . . . and decided to exploit it to her advantage and amusement. She accordingly faked her own death at the hands of the newly-risen (and thus inexperienced and easy-to-mislead) Cyric. Hiding in Cyric's own presence (more effectively than Godsbane/Mask, as was only appropriate), she proceeded to twist and manipulate the new dark god, stage-managing the creation of a relic of deception so powerful it could twist the beliefs of gods themselves. (And, perhaps, gave her the chance to take the portfolio of intrigue to herself, because she managed to snare Mask in her intrigue.) Along the way, she used her powers to trick the other gods, even using her illusions to fake them into thinking Ao had confirmed her death. When Abeir returned and the Primordial conflict resumed, she was safely out-of-view, no one hunting for her because none thought her around to be hunted. (Perhaps she even contacted Midnight-Mystra in secret and aided in her seclusion.) And then, when the Weave restored, Mystra returned, Abeir sundered from Toril, and the new Tablets of Fate marking a return to stability, she announced her continued existence. And so proved her absolute fitness for her job, having tricked every god, every primordial, and every other thinking being of Abeir and Toril. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 13:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you implying that someone capable of stripping all of the gods of their power could somehow be fooled by a god?
Nope. I was implying that the Goddess of Illusion and Deception could very well fool other gods into thinking they were told something by Ao.
So now you're saying that a lesser power is capable of fooling an entire pantheon at once?
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or are you saying that someone with no reason at all to lie chose to lie,
Do we really have any idea whatsoever what Ao's motivations have been for anything? Again, assuming it was Ao.
Actually, yes, we know Ao's motivation: Balance. And lying about a lesser power isn't something that aids Balance. Ditto for allowing a lesser power to impersonate him.
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat the deity of murder somehow didn't know he didn't actually commit murder,
Did Cyric think he murdered Midnight-as-Mystra? You know, the goddess we discovered in the Sundering actually voluntarily withdrew? I know Cyric managed to be deceived about whether he killed Bane and Myrkul by an artifact. So, yeah, I'm certainly going to stand by the idea that a god who has a record of being repeatedly deceived about whom he managed to kill can be deceived about whether he managed to kill the Goddess of Deception with a sword made out of the God of Intrigue.
Huh? How was Cyric fooled by an artifact about Myrkul and Bane? Just because someone comes back from the dead doesn't mean they weren't dead. You can't come back from something if you weren't there.
And I'm sorry, but you'll never convince me that someone acting in their portfolio could possibly be fooled about whether or not they have executed that portfolio. As far as a deity's portfolio is concerned, the only superior power is Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat a deity decided to face a slow, wasting death by not responding to worshipers for more than a century,
The exact relational mechanism between prayer response, worshipers, power, and time is not known and will never be specified in rules. Stepping out for one century may or may not be a big deal.
It may never been known, but 100 years is a long time in the minds of mortals, and acting dead for all that time convinces mortals that you are, in fact, dead. And that leaves you with no worshipers, and that's the road to death. Waukeen lost a good chunk of her worshipers in just 10 years, and that was without anyone actively saying she was dead.
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat this deity was somehow stripped of her portfolios despite still being around?
Was she? Written down on the Tablets of Fate that she didn't have the portfolio anymore, was it? Cyric certainly thought he was exercising the office, yes. He believed a lot of things that may or may not have been true.
Yes, she was stripped of those portfolios. Unless you are going to say that the same sourcebooks that stated Leira was dead are wrong about that, and are also wrong about who holds the portfolios.
Plus, I think a deity would notice if they didn't acquire new portfolios.
quote:
Originally posted by see
So, here let me spin you a story:
The goddess Leira, a goddess of magic of long standing as the goddess of illusionists, knew much about the upcoming trouble with the Weave, and that this would devastate her most devout worshipers.
And 100+ years of ignoring them wouldn't devastate them? Waukeen lost most of her followers in just 10 years...
quote:
Originally posted by see
She also saw the destruction of the Tablets of Fate, of course, as a result of the Mount Waterdeep incident. (Perhaps she even foresaw this, as what the gods who stole the Tablets believed about them was false, and they of course engaged in deception as part of their plot.)
Of course, if she foresaw everything (which the deity of foresight apparently did not do), she could have taken some better steps than allowing her worship to dwindle to nothing... For example, she could have fooled the Dark Three into thinking they stole the tablets, without any upheaval happening as a result!
quote:
Originally posted by see
And Shar, moving in secret, trying to build a Shadow Weave (suited for illusion magic, incidentally), that too she may well have seen.
The Shadow Weave had been built centuries earlier. I don't see how this could be a factor, anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by see
So between these, Leira saw an era of dangerous upheaval coming . . . and decided to exploit it to her advantage and amusement.
And she decided the best way to do this was to set herself up for death, instead of preventing it and giving herself a boost in the process. Is she the goddess of mad plans, as well?
quote:
Originally posted by see
She accordingly faked her own death at the hands of the newly-risen (and thus inexperienced and easy-to-mislead) Cyric.
Again, a deity is supreme in their portfolio. If Cyric thinks he murdered someone, they are murdered.
quote:
Originally posted by see
Hiding in Cyric's own presence (more effectively than Godsbane/Mask, as was only appropriate), she proceeded to twist and manipulate the new dark god, stage-managing the creation of a relic of deception so powerful it could twist the beliefs of gods themselves.
And then let slide a chance to make herself more powerful, by making it about her... And again, somehow being powerful enough to affect those more powerful than her.
Additionally, if Cyric had been successful, he would have become the only deity. This benefits Leira's mad plan how?
quote:
Originally posted by see
(And, perhaps, gave her the chance to take the portfolio of intrigue to herself, because she managed to snare Mask in her intrigue.) Along the way, she used her powers to trick the other gods, even using her illusions to fake them into thinking Ao had confirmed her death.
Again, somehow being more powerful than an entire pantheon... And also, this fails to explain why Ao would allow himself to be impersonated. Or would be have been fooled, too?
quote:
Originally posted by see
When Abeir returned and the Primordial conflict resumed, she was safely out-of-view, no one hunting for her because none thought her around to be hunted.
Of course, if she had played things correctly earlier, no one would have been hunting her, anyway... Or is a goddess capable of fooling an entire pantheon somehow not up to the task of hiding from them?
quote:
Originally posted by see
(Perhaps she even contacted Midnight-Mystra in secret and aided in her seclusion.) And then, when the Weave restored, Mystra returned, Abeir sundered from Toril, and the new Tablets of Fate marking a return to stability, she announced her continued existence. And so proved her absolute fitness for her job, having tricked every god, every primordial, and every other thinking being of Abeir and Toril.
Again, if this was at all possible, she could have prevented all of the upheaval, and thus not had to weather it or prove anything to anyone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Aug 2014 13:16:02 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:00:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Tyr is a deity of justice, law and judges, not the same as Torm/Helm/Bahamuth. Also it's not like his presence denies theirs. 5e is going for inclusiveness, and it looks like they stayed true to their words about all the gods returning. I hope that they do the same for all the nonhuman deities. If Mulhorand and Maztica get back on Toril, then I guess their pantheons will too.
Torm and Bahamut took over his portfolio when he bit it. I dont think that Tyr is a worthy god of justice after his murder of Helm and persecution of his followers. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:02:59
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I think you can take pretty much all of those arguments can be answered by our debate about a few weeks ago about Leira in reference to the gathering in which Ao confirmed Leira's murder.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you implying that someone capable of stripping all of the gods of their power could somehow be fooled by a god?
Nope. I was implying that the Goddess of Illusion and Deception could very well fool other gods into thinking they were told something by Ao.
So now you're saying that a lesser power is capable of fooling an entire pantheon at once?
The answer to this question is YES. It is canon, which I know you LOVE above all else Wooly :P.
"Leira is the Goddess of Deception," Oghma noted. This wouldn't be the first time she obscured her whereabouts from us, simply to prove her power to hide outstrips our ability and patience to seek."
She can do so, and has done so before. Once you accept that fact, many of your other arguments about whether she could deceive Cyric about murder seem obvious as well.
We also discussed why Ao would not end her illusion to tell the other Gods the truth, and that is because in the same source we learn that part of what Ao does is NOT intervene when gods are doing what is in their portfolio/nature just because the other gods ask him to. It is in Cyric's nature to murder, Masks to cover it up, and Leira's to let them believe they succeeded. Ao would not reveal her lies and deceptions because Mystra was peaved at Cyric.
Now, in the previous discussion we talked about which sources list her as dead and which say maybe dead and which say BOTH. In the end you said you would not believe she was alive and had deceived everyone until there was a more up to date source confirming her survival... :P Seems like you have that source now. Right?
We also discussed how she could fool Cyric into granting his power to her followers in that earlier thread as well. I think your biggest problem with the whole idea is that she would die because Cyric is answering her prayers and she would lose power. I am of course no expert on such things (Is anyone? :P), but I think as part of her deception she could let him eavesdrop on all her faithful's prayers and let him grant spells for her thinking they are now his faithful. This would allow her to devote more power into her deception or some other unknown task. She could also be whispering to them things he doesn't know...
In all, I find it personally powerful that any god would say DAMN this is a mess. Gods dying, being born, everything is in upheaval and the only way to survive this madness unscathed to to be believed dead already, then bunker down in Limbo and wait it out. Maybe even make a move or two from the shadows.
I don't know how much of this 5th Ed. will answer. Perhaps there will be a novel about the Lady of Mysteries (I'd LOVE that), perhaps there will be a sidebar, perhaps a footnote, perhaps nothing. I'd say that would also be appropriate, leaving it a MYSTERY :D |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:07:39
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I honestly don't understand why the debate about Leira's death (or lack thereof) keeps getting so heated. However WotC spins it...she's back and there will be a story behind it. They have debunked prior lore in the past and they may debunk the writeup of Leira in the 2e godbooks OR they may say tha Ao handwaved her back into existence.
I see merit on both sides but prefer the idea that she somehow fooled Cyric and many others...but that's just me as I actually really like Leira and have a bias.
I have a feeling she isn't going to be handwaved though. I think we're going to find that some part of her essence was lodged in the Cyrinishad (likely unintentionally) and that portion of her survived intact AND that there were still a small amount of devout followers somewhere (maybe Nimbral...assuming it's still around somewhere). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:10:50
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quote:
Torm and Bahamut took over his portfolio when he bit it. I dont think that Tyr is a worthy god of justice after his murder of Helm and persecution of his followers.
Yeah I know, but you have to admit that the bit about the divine love triangle was pretty nonsensical, put there just to get rid of Helm/Tyr (like many other dramas that have been used to remove deities from the pantheon because of 4e design choices). So it needs fixing.
I'm not a fan of Tyr personally, but his presence doesn't bother me. As I said, I like the choice of inclusiveness (and I truly hope that they don't leave the drow pantheon out of this, since they and the mulhorandi are the only ones missing atm), you can easily ignore a god if you don't like it (especially with this new approach of distant deities) but it sucks to see what you like left out, destroyed and forgotten. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Aug 2014 14:12:24 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupertthat this deity was somehow stripped of her portfolios despite still being around?
Was she? Written down on the Tablets of Fate that she didn't have the portfolio anymore, was it? Cyric certainly thought he was exercising the office, yes. He believed a lot of things that may or may not have been true.
So, here let me spin you a story:
The goddess Leira, a goddess of magic of long standing as the goddess of illusionists, knew much about the upcoming trouble with the Weave, and that this would devastate her most devout worshipers. She also saw the destruction of the Tablets of Fate, of course, as a result of the Mount Waterdeep incident. (Perhaps she even foresaw this, as what the gods who stole the Tablets believed about them was false, and they of course engaged in deception as part of their plot.) And Shar, moving in secret, trying to build a Shadow Weave (suited for illusion magic, incidentally), that too she may well have seen. So between these, Leira saw an era of dangerous upheaval coming . . . and decided to exploit it to her advantage and amusement. She accordingly faked her own death at the hands of the newly-risen (and thus inexperienced and easy-to-mislead) Cyric. Hiding in Cyric's own presence (more effectively than Godsbane/Mask, as was only appropriate), she proceeded to twist and manipulate the new dark god, stage-managing the creation of a relic of deception so powerful it could twist the beliefs of gods themselves. (And, perhaps, gave her the chance to take the portfolio of intrigue to herself, because she managed to snare Mask in her intrigue.) Along the way, she used her powers to trick the other gods, even using her illusions to fake them into thinking Ao had confirmed her death.
I don't think we need to assume that she faked Ao. It is a possibility I'd say, but not at all necessary. The questions are these: Would Ao lie? Why not? Would Ao tell half-truths? Who is to say? What exactly did Ao confirm? He said that Cyric murdered Leira and Mask covered it up.
At no point did he say that Cyric murdered Leira in reality. So, Cyric, hunting Leira walks into an illusion spun by the goddess of illusion herself. (Really, why would she ever let a god everyone knows wants power to come anywhere near her?) Kills the Leira of that illusionary reality and goes on his way convinced that he is much man.
Confirming before the gods that this happened and not mentioning it was all one of Leira's illusion would not even be a lie. It would be just enough truth to uphold Cyric's position and Mask's position, to respond to Mystra's demand (which apparently they have a right to make of him), and to uphold Leira's perfect deception. This in my mind fits exactly with the lecture he gives Mystra about gods doing what is in their nature to do and it not being his place to interfere. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 15:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Torm and Bahamut took over his portfolio when he bit it. I dont think that Tyr is a worthy god of justice after his murder of Helm and persecution of his followers.
Yeah I know, but you have to admit that the bit about the divine love triangle was pretty nonsensical, put there just to get rid of Helm/Tyr (like many other dramas that have been used to remove deities from the pantheon because of 4e design choices). So it needs fixing.
I'm not a fan of Tyr personally, but his presence doesn't bother me. As I said, I like the choice of inclusiveness (and I truly hope that they don't leave the drow pantheon out of this, since they and the mulhorandi are the only ones missing atm), you can easily ignore a god if you don't like it (especially with this new approach of distant deities) but it sucks to see what you like left out, destroyed and forgotten.
well yeah that plot did seem a bit to convenient and frankly i am glad to see many of the gods returning and like you hope that the drow gods are among them. However this new doctrine of including every last God is taking things a bit too far IMO. Some gods died well and for good reason (plot wise at least). Just bringing them all back removes a lot of the tension and dramatic significance of a the demise of a deity in the first place.
I mean if they kill off someone again who is gonna care , we all know they will be back in a few years anyway. When did the realms become DC comics? |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 15:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I honestly don't understand why the debate about Leira's death (or lack thereof) keeps getting so heated. However WotC spins it...she's back and there will be a story behind it. They have debunked prior lore in the past and they may debunk the writeup of Leira in the 2e godbooks OR they may say tha Ao handwaved her back into existence.
I see merit on both sides but prefer the idea that she somehow fooled Cyric and many others...but that's just me as I actually really like Leira and have a bias.
I have a feeling she isn't going to be handwaved though. I think we're going to find that some part of her essence was lodged in the Cyrinishad (likely unintentionally) and that portion of her survived intact AND that there were still a small amount of devout followers somewhere (maybe Nimbral...assuming it's still around somewhere).
I get that you like Leira, and I don't mind having her come back, but I'm totally on Wooly's side here. The whole scenario of Leira neglecting her worshippers for 100 years to play some master trick on Cyric is utterly ridiculous, and it would be poor writing. What would even be the point in revealing herself now?
Cyric has only proven himself to be more dangerous since he murdered Leira. There's no good way to explain why she would just now tip her hand, when Cyric or Mask could easily take revenge on her. Only if everyone who had been after Leira was dead, or severely depowered, would it make sense for her to return.
I just can't understand why so many people complained endlessly about bad storytelling in 4e, and now they beg for it in 5e. Most people seem to be ok with Ao handwaving everything back to how it was (despite the very idea of Ao being hated in 2e), or with random, nonsensical ways to explain sweeping changes. At the end of the day, more bad storytelling won't solve any problems. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 15:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
well yeah that plot did seem a bit to convenient and frankly i am glad to see many of the gods returning and like you hope that the drow gods are among them. However this new doctrine of including every last God is taking things a bit too far IMO. Some gods died well and for good reason (plot wise at least). Just bringing them all back removes a lot of the tension and dramatic significance of a the demise of a deity in the first place.
I mean if they kill off someone again who is gonna care , we all know they will be back in a few years anyway. When did the realms become DC comics?
I don't think that the Realms is going to become like comics just because of the Sundering. It is an exception, a design tool and a change in design approach to inclusive from detractive.
Also, as said, many deities' disappearence had no value in terms of setting to begin with, they didn't add anything but only removed valid elements of it, were done with little thought, in a way too large number and way too often (and happened in unfitting/cheesy, even random -with the SP- ways). Deities are not like mortal characters, usually they are related to vast parts of the world (their followers, their goals, ideals, battles and so on) who get removed with them, bringing away part of the flavor and depth of the setting. Instead they were thrown away for ''shock'' value, or because the Devs team didn't want/like them, and many have already been brought back in the past with various sheaningans for similar reasons. Gods' deaths in the FR have already lost their dramtic significance, so at this point I'm glad that they are adding stuff, for once. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 17:20:47
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| Another way to interpret that list is that it also includes dead gods :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 17:40:16
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Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think you can take pretty much all of those arguments can be answered by our debate about a few weeks ago about Leira in reference to the gathering in which Ao confirmed Leira's murder.
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by see
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you implying that someone capable of stripping all of the gods of their power could somehow be fooled by a god?
Nope. I was implying that the Goddess of Illusion and Deception could very well fool other gods into thinking they were told something by Ao.
So now you're saying that a lesser power is capable of fooling an entire pantheon at once?
The answer to this question is YES. It is canon, which I know you LOVE above all else Wooly :P.
"Leira is the Goddess of Deception," Oghma noted. This wouldn't be the first time she obscured her whereabouts from us, simply to prove her power to hide outstrips our ability and patience to seek."
She can do so, and has done so before. Once you accept that fact, many of your other arguments about whether she could deceive Cyric about murder seem obvious as well.
We also discussed why Ao would not end her illusion to tell the other Gods the truth, and that is because in the same source we learn that part of what Ao does is NOT intervene when gods are doing what is in their portfolio/nature just because the other gods ask him to. It is in Cyric's nature to murder, Masks to cover it up, and Leira's to let them believe they succeeded. Ao would not reveal her lies and deceptions because Mystra was peaved at Cyric.
Now, in the previous discussion we talked about which sources list her as dead and which say maybe dead and which say BOTH. In the end you said you would not believe she was alive and had deceived everyone until there was a more up to date source confirming her survival... :P Seems like you have that source now. Right?
We also discussed how she could fool Cyric into granting his power to her followers in that earlier thread as well. I think your biggest problem with the whole idea is that she would die because Cyric is answering her prayers and she would lose power. I am of course no expert on such things (Is anyone? :P), but I think as part of her deception she could let him eavesdrop on all her faithful's prayers and let him grant spells for her thinking they are now his faithful. This would allow her to devote more power into her deception or some other unknown task. She could also be whispering to them things he doesn't know...
In all, I find it personally powerful that any god would say DAMN this is a mess. Gods dying, being born, everything is in upheaval and the only way to survive this madness unscathed to to be believed dead already, then bunker down in Limbo and wait it out. Maybe even make a move or two from the shadows.
I don't know how much of this 5th Ed. will answer. Perhaps there will be a novel about the Lady of Mysteries (I'd LOVE that), perhaps there will be a sidebar, perhaps a footnote, perhaps nothing. I'd say that would also be appropriate, leaving it a MYSTERY :D
Hiding and forcing others to believe something untrue is not at all the same thing. I could hide from you by standing behind a tree quite readily. Standing in front of a room full of people and convincing them that I'm actually Scarlett Johansson is another story. Having Morgan Freeman confirm this, when he gets nothing out of the deal, is also incredibly unlikely...
All that hiding requires is not being where someone is looking. Forcing your will to overcome the will of a large number of more powerful entities is an entirely different matter. If it was that simple, Cyric could have convinced everyone that she was actually alive... Or, even better, he wouldn't have needed the Cyrinishad to convince everyone that he was the only deity worth regard.
And that doesn't address the concept of why Ao would allow this deception. How does it serve Balance for Ao to allow someone to impersonate him, which can only serve to undermine his authority? And from the earlier debate, the question of why Ao would lie still remains.
I get that people like Leira. And if they handwave her back into existence, that's fine.
I just don't understand this insistence that all related canon material is wrong and that there are some wacky plans afoot that necessitate Leira losing power and worshipers to stay alive. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 18:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Another way to interpret that list is that it also includes dead gods :)
You really had to ruin the mood, didn't you?
On a serious note, it may be, but since the Adventureres league organized play thingy says that you can pick any of the FR deities in the PHB as patron, I guess that it is not the case. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 20:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Another way to interpret that list is that it also includes dead gods :)
You really had to ruin the mood, didn't you?
On a serious note, it may be, but since the Adventureres league organized play thingy says that you can pick any of the FR deities in the PHB as patron, I guess that it is not the case.
Well, we did have rules in 3E for worshiping a dead deity... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 20:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Another way to interpret that list is that it also includes dead gods :)
You really had to ruin the mood, didn't you?
On a serious note, it may be, but since the Adventureres league organized play thingy says that you can pick any of the FR deities in the PHB as patron, I guess that it is not the case.
Well, we did have rules in 3E for worshiping a dead deity...
Yes, but you know, with the organized play stuff, where only mainstream rules (PHB and basic) are allowed...
Also, in a PHB list I don't think that they would have used space for dead deities. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Aug 2014 20:11:04 |
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the official god list is....
