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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 14:06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
What happened to 'dropping the sledgehammer'?
Technically they did, Shade on top of Myth Drannor!
Also, where's Dennis, I do believe he is going to flip when he finds out Telamont's dead... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 17:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
SPOILERS BELOW!!!
Hmmm. I find the comment about "Mary Sues" curious. I've been reading Realmslore carefully over the years and had long ago formed the impression that the Srinshee was WAY up there in power, probably outstripping Larloch - - and that's what we saw.
That Manshoon has been steadily drifting away from power-hunger and throwing his weight around (and violently rejecting Mystra's plans for him when they seemed to aim him in that direction, in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy) - - and that's what we saw more of; him deciding that this wasn't a fight he really wanted a part of. Why would he want to attack or conquer Cormyr? A land full of War Wizards?
That some of the ruling family of Shade may individually be at the godlike level (and in Paul Kemp's novel, we saw their fates), but that Thultanthan society arrogantly overestimates their own magical might versus the world they have returned to - - and specifically, that Telamont has been propped up by Shar and never bothered to study the Weave as it now is, in detail. Ed has consistently said that Telamont is overconfident, and what we saw here is that Elminster, using the Weave, was able to out-anticipate Telamont and trap him. That came as no surprise to me; for the last five years of real-time reading (of many writers) I have been thinking, "This Telamont is heading for a real fall."
And again, that's what we saw.
So nothing here struck me as Mary Sue-ish. "Mary Sues" are characters that can never fail or be beaten (and Ed has shown us Elminster beaten over and over again in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy), and that effortlessly beat characters they shouldn't be able to defeat. Any reader who thought that those who got beaten in The Herald "shouldn't" have been able to be defeated just wasn't paying attention to the situations described in the novel in which they were bested, and to all the past hints and statements that have established those characters in our minds.
Me, I knew back when I finished Ed's "Tears So White" short story some years ago that a big onstage part was coming for Larloch, and that he was going to end up slamming into the Srinshee at some point - - and that he was going to lose that confrontation.
And being as Larloch, the Srinshee, Mirt, Manshoon, Elminster, and (the name at least of) Telamont Tanthul are all Ed's characters, how is it that some are Mary Sues and some are not? I just don't get this point of view, at all. Ed has created almost all of this, and I don't see him playing favorites among his characters. (I do see WIZARDS playing favorites in contracting Ed to write Elminster novel after Elminster novel, just as Salvatore is contracted to write Drizzt novel after Drizzt novel, but that's a different thing. And to those who say, well, they signed those contracts so they've gone along with it, of COURSE they have. The alternative is to stop writing in the Realms and watch other writers pen stories of "their" characters; what choice would YOU make?)
I was pleased to see that Ed didn't mind destroying and killing so much of what he created and built up (Myth Drannor, Candlekeep, and so many characters; Dove, for instance). That's not playing Mary Sues; having everybody miraculously escape alive would be.
And I like the new Netherese we see surviving at the end.
BB
1) When the "most powerful archmage" topic comes up every so often, many people do pick the Srinshee. It's far from a clear choice though. If you pick through all the sourcebooks, novels, and interviews, there are a handful of archmages you could realistically choose as the most powerful: Larloch, Srinshee, Elminster, Simbul, Iolaum, and maybe a few more.
There has always been an argument about who's the most powerful, because NOBODY clearly stands head and shoulders above the rest. What we saw in the novel was not reflective of that at all. Srinshee swatted Larloch like he wasn't even an archmage.
Remember Ed's past interview that claimed Larloch could have conquered a sizable chunk of Faerun if he were interested in political power? I didn't see that Larloch.
My frustration is less about Larloch losing, and more about the way he lost. Larloch is a character who has fascinated me and many other FR fans for YEARS. He's kept so mysterious and built up to be so godlike, that it ruined the point of finally featuring him in a novel, if he was just going to be a showcase for the Srinshee's power. Ed could have showcased her power in a dozen ways.
Also, it diminished the Srinshee as a character. If she can casually blast Larloch into oblivion, that raises 2 big questions:
a) why has she sat there twiddling her thumbs while her people were trampled all these centuries, if she has Exarch/Demigod level powers?
b) what possible challenges are there for her? Nothing short of a god could hope to harm her, and with the Seldarine on her side, no gods will be coming after her.
2) Manshoon spent the entire Sage of Shadowdale series trying to conquer Cormyr. So I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that he doesn't want to conquer Cormyr. He sarcastically remarked "I'll sit this one out" after he was surrounded by a ton of priests and War Wizards. He didn't voluntarily give up his ambitious designs; he was outsmarted in a way that's far beneath him, and thus taken out of the game.
3) You said that you read Kemp's books. Well, Kemp presents Telamont as a man who rarely leaves his throne room. He's obsessed with furthering his knowledge of magic and collecting magical artifacts. It's completely wrong to assert that Shar "props him up". She gave Riavalen lots of powers and useful secrets. Telamont earned his power through study, experimentation, and experience.
Also, Elminster didn't outsmart or outanticipate Telamont at all. He pinned him to his throne and held him there until Shade crashed into Myth Drannor. Elminster should have died in the resulting explosion, but Mystra came along and healed him. There was nothing Elminster did that required cleverness, wisdom, or planning ahead. He just punked Telamont with brute force.
Finally, I understand that it's quite possible for archmages to slay each other with little effort. I love watching combat sports, and sometimes 1 great fighter KOs another in the 1st round. That's not usually how it happens though. And more importantly, that's not fun to watch or read about. I love watching comic book movies, for instance, which are highly unrealistic. But I don't want to see the Hulk or Spiderman just 1 shot KO their main villains after hours of buildup toward the climax. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 19:44:46
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The Most High had just gotten the mysical crap beaten out of him by Larloch and even his own family feared his sanity was broken enough that approaching him was dangerous.
He was valuerible when El attacked, El didn't attack like mighty archmage, all power, flash, and sizzle, he attacked like an assassin, but on a magical level, one key strike, all in, brutal, holding nothing back, striking at a weak spot on his target, but used raw magic instead of a blade.
I'll also point out some of the Most Powerful princes of shade are now minds in the weave, with the potential to return when they find a suitable new body to steal.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 19:48:25
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| As for most powerful archmage, according to the FRCG 4e it is Szass Tam. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 19:50:00
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Okay, L, I see where you're coming from.
If you thought that Manshoon spent the entire Sage of Shadowdale trilogy trying to conquer Cormyr, you don't pay attention that closely when reading. Read it again; that's NOT what he's doing. He's amusing himself setting people in Cormyr at each other's throats, he's ruining and discrediting the War Wizards, and he's doing most of this mainly so authorities will be busy and he'll be left alone in Suzail to do his own thing/experimentations.
If you thought the Srinshee casually swatted Larloch and that therefore you didn't see the "real" Larloch, you didn't read The Herald closely, either.
The Srinshee waited until the moment when Larloch was overextended/overloaded, and then blasted him when he couldn't hit back (not necessarily destroying him).
Elminster also waited until Telamont was overextended, and then pinned him so he couldn't get away (planning ahead). Yes, it was brute force, and yes, Mystra healed him. Both Shar and Mystra were lurking behind their mortal tools throughout the book, and both very much stayed in character: Mystra stayed loyal to Elminster, and Shar stepped back from a tool she'd grown tired of and let him go down.
I PM'd THO about the gods getting in the way of free-willed mortal heroes and villains AGAIN (that was MY beef about The Herald), and she sent me a reply from Ed that he wrote that deliberately, to set up something we're going to see in his next Elminster novel. Just as Salvatore sets things up that develop over a trilogy or more of Drizzt books.
You quite rightly say that "Kemp presents Telamont as a man who rarely leaves his throne room." So did Ed, in The Herald. He spends almost all of his time in the throne room or his private inner sanctum opening off it, until the end of the book.
However, when you say "It's completely wrong to assert that Shar "props him up," no, it's not. Ed created Shar and Telamont, and he's the one who said this, AND SHOWED IT in scenes in The Herald.
Yes, "She gave Riavalen lots of powers and useful secrets," I agree. The whole point of Shar is that she uses many mortals as tools, and then throws them away/lets them get destroyed (she's the goddess of despair and loss and chaos, remember?). She's been doing it for centuries.
I think what your initial comments come down to is: I hated this book because it portrayed characters differently than I thought they should be portrayed. Fair enough. However, the book happens to have been written by the guy who created the setting and these characters, and my opinion - - every bit as valid as yours - - is that he knows these characters better than you do. So a bit less of the throwing around words like "wrong," please.
I think the creator knows what he's doing.
BB
P.S. I get that the victories/defeats, when they happened, are very sudden, rather than the comic book style blow/counterblow/castle falls down/fighter rises from the wreckage and lets fly/repeat/repeat/repeat. Ed has said in the past that works for low and mid level bands of adventurers fighting multiple foes, but for high-powered arcane spellhurlers, the battles are going to be very short, the results abrupt. |
Edited by - Blueblade on 01 Jun 2014 19:52:36 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 19:52:15
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| The running theme was that arrogance brings the powerful low, what happened to Manshoon fit that big time. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 19:53:13
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The Most High had just gotten the mysical crap beaten out of him by Larloch and even his own family feared his sanity was broken enough that approaching him was dangerous.
He was valuerible when El attacked, El didn't attack like mighty archmage, all power, flash, and sizzle, he attacked like an assassin, but on a magical level, one key strike, all in, brutal, holding nothing back, striking at a weak spot on his target, but used raw magic instead of a blade.
I'll also point out some of the Most Powerful princes of shade are now minds in the weave, with the potential to return when they find a suitable new body to steal.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 20:10:11
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Bingo! Gyor is spot on: the running theme is indeed that arrogance brings the powerful low, and what befell Manshoon did indeed exemplify that.
And yes, many of the Princes of Shade are in the Weave, not "completely gone." Larloch isn't gone, just greatly lessened in power and shoved out of the Realms (for now). The Srinshee probably IS gone, sacrificing herself to bring down those she saw as great immediate threats to the world she loved and her people (the elves).
Larloch was a master planner. When he had to stray from his plans and fly by the seat of his pants, because everything was happening at once, things went wrong for him when instead of being prudent and pulling back and trusting in his many backup plans and waiting for another day, he succumbed to the lure of power, trusting in his mastery.
Telamont was a master strategist. Propped up by Shar for so long that defeat had become foreign to him (except among his own family). He became convinced of his own superiority, and abandoned HIS prudence and backup plans.
Only to get rudely shown by Larloch and then Elminster that arrogance in the Realms had better be backed up by unmatched brute force, or it's fragile armor indeed.
Blueblade was quite right to conclude, after reading "Tears So White" years back, that Larloch was heading for a fall.
One of the things Ed has shown us repeatedly is that overconfidence, particularly when extended into arrogant behavior towards others, eventually lands anyone, from a deity to a monster of low intelligence, in the soup.
When I first saw the Princes of Shade onstage, I knew where they were headed. Their magical power just meant it would take a while.
One of the delights of playing in Ed's home campaign (now running more than a century behind the time of the published Realms) is that I can see in detail the little things he builds up "for later." Sometimes much later. Go back and read the Old Gray Box and the two years of Realms products Ed wrote or co-wrote that followed that, and you can see many subtle hints and little details that anchor what came later.
I recall when some of my fellow Knights (Ed's home Realms campaign players) were reading the Archwizards trilogy, comments were made like: "It'll be fun to watch Telamont finally go up against Elminster - - and get handed his behind very quickly. If he even gets that far; going up against Manshoon or Alustriel should end the same way."
What will interest me is seeing if the next generation of Thultanthan leaders (the three survivors we see at the end of The Herald) has learned anything from Telamont's fall.
love to all,
THO
P.S. And I find myself amused.
Ed was interviewed about The Herald by some local gamers, and said that some readers will dislike the way some characters are portrayed, because they fall in love with the characters and inevitably get upset at comeuppances. He then wrote down examples of this on a sheet of paper, folded it up, and gave it to me to hold until copies of The Herald were out among readers. Being as the main bookstore chains have ignored the June 3rd date and many, many readers have already finished The Herald, I can now reveal what Ed wrote down:
"Telamont Tanthul
Larloch
And of course we'll hear from the usual Elminster Is a Mary Sue brigade"
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 01 Jun 2014 20:20:46 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 22:42:33
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| I was really disappointed in the lack of the Simbul in The Herald, especially in that final scene... *sigh* |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2014 : 23:59:58
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The surviving three, I know the male is a wizard or arcanist, but what about the girls, they have displayed no magical powers, just seductive, but you say they are leaders so that leads me to believe they do have thier own magic, for to be a power in Shadovar politics it appears needful, am I right.
Also Hooded One, am I right about Mirt? |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 00:42:25
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Mirt is likely NDA for the moment, but it would be nice to confirm which god favors him. You know, it COULD be Mystra (strange as that sounds). Not all of her chosen have been mages.
I for one like how El was portrayed in the novel. My favorite scene was the battle with Alustriel and Laeral...simply because I did NOT see that one coming. I like that he was fooled and that they bested him. I don't think his surgical strike against Telamont (or the Srinshee's against Larloch) are unrealistic...it was the smart way to go. However...
I would have preferred some of the battles between the archmages lasted longer (I do think it's unrealistic, usually anyway, for a battle between such powerhouses to end so abruptly).
I have long suspected the Srinshee to be the most powerful wizard in the setting...but at that level of power such a title is relative. As to why she remained in the background while the Elves were trampled etc. That was explained in an earlier novel in which she left, with the Ruler's Blade, until the elves matured. In her wisdom (and supreme restraint..ie lack of arrogance) she knew that she couldn't protect them forever. They have to stand on their own and learn from their mistakes. As a whole they seem to be sorely lacking in that regard.
I am highly disappointed that the wards/mythal were destroyed though. Hopefully they are restored at a future date. As far as my Realms go, those wards are still intact (assuming I ever play in the 'future' Realms...which I doubt). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 10:31:25
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@ Blueblade: the fact the Ed is the creator of all the characters and of FR doesn't automagically make everything he writes perfect, i am not saying in this instance he did something wrong, i'm just saying that the argument "it's the creator so it's right" is soundly wrong (i mean look at the Mass Effect 3 ending, the creators of the game pooped on 5 years of franchise in 15 mins of barely interactive dialogue that trashed all the philosophical and ethical depth of the game serie). So yes, creators can indeed botch things and it's better to avoid being dogmatic while interpreting works of fiction (and again i repeat that this retort is against the use of the argument, not against the way Ed wrote anything, nor am i saying i think Ed messed up something).
I think the problem here is the disconnect between published Realms and the original, true Ed-Realms. Especially in the representation of Larloch: up until this point he was represented as the perfect master manipulator that survived for thousands of years and to 3 Mystr-- deaths, so powerful that even if all the big names in the setting know exactly where his main power base is no one ever truly bothered him in all this time, not even in times of crisis r magical upheaval, so powerful he engineered the whole Szass Tam business in Thay, half a continent away, so powerful we don't see even the slightest hint of rival organizations even trying to attack him (i mean the Zhents and followers of evil deities regularly try to kill Elminster and the other Chosens but we never saw Kelemvor crusaders trying to storm Warlock's Crypt or something like that) and then, all of a sudden he goes berserk atop Myth Drannor forgetting (?) that the Srinshee is around and could exploit that moment of weakness to kick his butt? It's not like the Srinshee went to Warlock's Crypt to beat him, he was playing in her backyard and he should've known better than to underestimate the situation, or so i was led to believe given these years of Realms canon.
That's kind of the same problem with "Tears so White" when, in a discussion here, people was throwing around questions like "why Storm hasn't obliterated him on the spot with Silver Fire?" and i was like "What? Obliterating? Larloch? Never gonna happen, pfft and Storm? A *bard*!! Pfffft!! Nonsense!" while apparently for some people "in the know" it was a possible outcome of that scene. Again i'm not claiming i'm right, i'm saying that based on what i had seen of Larloch in all these years of canon and with no "behind the scenes" glances i simply found the idea of Storm even attacking Larloch a clearly suicidical move. And probably i was wrong, but it was Larloch representation in canon that led me to my wrong conclusion.
So it's no surprise people here is disappointed in Larloch's comeuppance. On the other hand i always thought Telamont to be inferior to Larloch, Elminster, the Srinshee and other big names, so he finally beating the dust doesn't surprise me too much.
The other minor problem i have is (sigh) with the deities. So Mystra once again does as she pleases saving Elminster yet another time while Shar just lets her do it? Isn't Mystra only partially restored with the Weave still half in tatters and isn't Shar almost at the apex of her power (with the entire society of Shade fanatically worshiping her and successful up until this point)? I understand why Shar would want to let Telamont fall (loss, despair and all that jazz) but why she doesn't even try to stop Mystra from saving Elminster? Is this newborn Mystra already out of her league? Does Shar really wants to have Elminster running around messing things up again? Has Shar a crush on the Old Goat? Or maybe Shar really doesn't want to win her ultimate doomsday battle but she really enjoys the struggle and so lets the most powerful minion of one of her most powerful enemies survive again? And if not Shar what about the others? Where is Bane when all this wars for total domination are fought? Where is Stalker Cyric when you need it? Doesn't he want to see under the skirt of this new Mystr--? Or where is Helm/Torm/Tyr (the new godly cop, it's getting kind of fuzzy who is who during the Sundering) to tell Mystr-- to mind her own fricking business and stop interfering with mortal struggles again? It's leaving a bad taste in my mouth to see that once again all deities are acting through proxies (chosens, priests, etc...) and only Mystr-- steps in when it really matters, wans't Ao supposed to be doing all this Sundering business to chain gods on the backseats and let them enjoy the show from afar? Maybe Ao too has a crush on the Old Goat?
That's my problem right now, finding valid justifications for the godly double standard that sees Mystr-- always on top (even after the damned Spellplague that should have at least solved this problem while wrecking everything else, but apparently didn't). |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 13:36:06
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@Demzer: Regarding your last point...Shar has been soundly beaten in 3 plots during the Sundering. I would say that she has lost power over the course of the past year (or longer in Realms time). It may be that the victory of El & Co. gave Mystra the strength she needed to confront Shar openly (at last). I think the real problem is trying to cover something as big as the events associated with the Sundering in only 6 books. I think (or hope, rather) we're going to see more novels written for that span of time.
I don't necessarily see a 'double standard' with Mystra's involvement. Other gods have been getting directly involved in things throughout the Sundering (Shar mostly, but also Cyric...and whose to say the other gods weren't involved elsewhere and we just haven't seen their stories yet). But I will say that 'seeing' the gods is getting a little old, although I do want to continue seeing stories concerning their Chosen (of all Faiths). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 17:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
It may not make sense, but I see Mirt as a Chosen of Tymora more than Sharess or Lliira. Tymora has a flip-side to Luck and that is Skill (this is just a personal observation). I don't see her being a goddess of blind luck but as a goddess of skill supported by luck (again just a personal observation).
Mirt is nothing if not both skilled and unbelievably lucky.
tymora came to mind late saturday night and I just couldnt bother with posting it as I was doing something else at the time..... and time was open sunday to do it...... but thats my problem.
yes Tymora |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 22:39:10
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| Myth Drannor was destroyed again? Grrr, I liked the Last Mythal trilogy. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 22:53:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Myth Drannor was destroyed again? Grrr, I liked the Last Mythal trilogy.
Yeah, me too. It was one of my favourite series.
Presumably Evereska still exists, or have they got their asses handed to them? (again) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 00:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Myth Drannor was destroyed again? Grrr, I liked the Last Mythal trilogy.
I liked it, too, except for the ending of "hey, in just five years' time, we turned a monster-infested pile of ruins, full of twisted magic, into a thriving town!"
Myth Drannor works best as a place of adventure. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jun 2014 00:08:57 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 00:17:26
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I get what everyone is saying about arrogance being the downfall of Larloch, Telamont, and Manshoon. They are certainly all full of themselves, but villains are always arrogant. So how can we realistically expect to ever see villains win? Surely that happens sometimes, but the arrogance trump card can always be used to easily explain why the hero wins in the end.
Again, I expect my favorites to take a loss now and then. When you shoot for the stars, you fall on your face sometimes. I was just more disappointed because Larloch has such little screen time. When he's onscreen, I want to see a great showing to justify all his hype. Same with the Srinshee. She did have an impressive showing, but I wanted her to work for it some. She didn't really get to showcase her vast array of spells, or her deep understanding of the Art, because she had such an easy fight.
I remember the sourcebook passages that describe Larloch as a super genius who is prepared to deal with any situation, can compose brilliant plans instantaneously, etc. What I saw featured in the novel was your typical power hungry, arrogant, short sighted archmage. I expected more (which is not Ed's fault).
As for Manshoon, I've long ago accepted that he's destined to fail at everything. He got chased out of the Zhentarim, chased out of Westgate, and now Cormyr. He couldn't manage to defeat his archnemesis even after Elminster was left a shell of his former self after the Spellplague. For all his power, intelligence, and intricate planning, Manshoon can't ever succeed. Judging strictly by what we've seen in the novels, there are a fair number of rogues, bards, and mages who are more clever than either Larloch or Manshoon. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 00:34:21
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Well, I saw it more as Larloch the great schemer succumbed to temptation. This was his chance the grab all the power of the Weave. Thanks to being a Chosen of Mystryl, he knew how to handle it and what to do with it when he got it, but he hadn't dared try for it before. However, with Mystra dead and then "back but offstage," and Azuth gone, his biggest obstacle was Elminster (whom he co-opted) and the danger of someone else hitting him/trying for it (e.g. Telamont and all of the Thultanthans). When they did the heavy lifting of "gathering" it, he could either step in and seize control, or sit back and let them succeed (which would have endangered him in the long run, because they would be sure to use it against anyone they saw as a strong threat, including him). He chose to gamble and seize it - - and lost the gamble because the Srinshee had waited longer and took him down when she had her best shot at doing so: when Larloch was overextended trying to use the power of Candlekeep's wards to seize the power of Myth Drannor's mythal, so he could use both to take control of the Weave.
He gambled and lost, at a bigger game than most of that "fair number of rogues, bards, and mages" would ever dare to even try to play.
BB
P.S. I agree that Larloch has little screen time. I think that was Ed's point: he lurks and watches and never steps forward until what he sees as "the right moment," instead of mustache-twirling and making pronouncements and lording it over others. That goes double for the Srinshee. They're just "not there" until: BLAM!  |
Edited by - Blueblade on 03 Jun 2014 00:36:27 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 05:35:53
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Okay, not having read the book I can't comment directly on the discussion being had. However, I do have a question.
So, basically if I understand correctly, Elminster used the opportunity of the Shades attacking Myth Drannor to attack Telamont. This in turn caused the Shade Enclave to fall from the sky and crash into Myth Drannor, turning both into ruins.
Okay, fair enough. That happened. Let's set that aside for a moment.
I'm assuming that there were elves living in Myth Drannor at the time. This falling enclave crushed them, and turned the home of any survivors to ruins.
The Tree of Souls was planted in Myth Drannor. I'm assuming that's destroyed as well, or at least ruined in a bad way.
Taking three steps forward, how are Elven survivors going to view this? Evermeet was effectively gone. The Tree of Souls had been planted. All the Elves were returning to build a kingdom in Myth Drannor... and now... there has just been a massacre of epic proportions.
I would imagine this being like the Elves version of 9/11. There has to be some serious fall out as a result of this... it's hard for me to imagine the Elves just shrugging this off and going, "Oh well. At least the good guys won!" ...considering it was one of the good guys (Elminster) who caused the massacre of their people, likely the destruction of the Tree of Souls, and the destruction of their city.
I seriously hope this is not hand waved away. If there are a sufficient number of survivors, I could imagine a war starting up as a result of this, and if not a war - certainly retributive attacks.
I would imagine their first target would be Sembia, as that's a remaining power base of the Shades. That's who would take the initial blame.
...and they're going to want to know why the Enclave fell, because that obviously was not the plan of the Shades... which means they might learn that Elminster was involved, and was directly responsible for what happened...
Is there any insight into what will happen as a consequence of these events? |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 06:25:00
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@Aldrick:
I haven't read it yet either (just downloaded the ebook from Amazon), but I'm guessing that most of the inhabitants of Myth Drannor were already dead (killed by the Shadovar?) before Shade gets dropped on them.
You make a good point about the tree; however, I doubt that the surviving elves will be in much of a position to do anything about it, even if they are set on veangeance. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 07:55:26
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| @Aldrick: The Tree of Souls was never mentioned...guess they missed that one. As for the reaction of the elves to Shade being dropped on the city, they are fine with it because the city was already lost. Almost all of the survivors were children and elderly and there were still thousands of enemies in the city. There was no other way to defeat them. As El said in the book, dropping the city on them was a good way to reduce the number of people willing to wage (unnecessary/unethical) wars against others. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 09:30:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@Aldrick: The Tree of Souls was never mentioned...guess they missed that one. As for the reaction of the elves to Shade being dropped on the city, they are fine with it because the city was already lost. Almost all of the survivors were children and elderly and there were still thousands of enemies in the city. There was no other way to defeat them. As El said in the book, dropping the city on them was a good way to reduce the number of people willing to wage (unnecessary/unethical) wars against others.
That's crazy. So the Elves were basically telling Elminster, "Sure, we're totally cool with you destroying our city. The city that we lost, and fought like hell to reclaim through war. The city that we spent the last century rebuilding. The city that houses our most precious and sacred artifact, the Tree of Souls. Oh, and yes, of course, any of our people who still may be left behind - oh well. We'll just call them collateral damage. Go ahead and blow it up."
I mean... they didn't even come up with an alternative plan they tried to pitch? I mean, I'm just taking a step back and imagining myself an elf in the room with Elminster as he's pitching this idea. My immediate response would be something along the lines of, "Woah, woah, woah! Hold up! Let's not make that option A. Let's come up with three or four alternative plans to that, weigh their pro's and con's, and then make a decision before we callously disregard the lives, labor, and culture of my people."
It's just hard for me to imagine something like that going down - even if it was a last resort and had to be done. I don't think the Elves would just stand back and take it as an acceptable loss. If for no other reason than to protect the Tree of Souls.
Let's be clear... I think if Elminster was revealing his plan to the Elves, they'd probably assassinate him before letting him even make the attempt. Even if it meant the city falls to the Shades, and they end up winning. They can always try to reclaim it later, like they did in the past. They should have been willing to do anything to protect the Tree of Souls - no sacrifice should have been too small.
Let's remember what the Tree of Souls is (for those who don't know), from the Elves of Evermeet pg. 76:
quote:
The most powerful and valuable of all elven magical artifacts resides in magical stasis in the palace of Queen Amlaruil. It is possibly the most powerful artifact on all of Abeir-Toril. The tree of souls holds the essences of many ancient elves who chose to stay on Toril, rather than join Corellon Larethian in Arvandor, allowing their souls to be used to rebuild the elven nation. It is being held in safety, looking forward to the day (possibly thousands of years distant) when the elves finally return to Faerūn.
If planted, the tree will instantly sprout into a gigantic (500-foot-tall), white-barked, oak-like tree with gleaming green and gold leaves. The tree itself will then act as a permanent gate to and from the island of Evermeet. It will allow the free casting of high magic without penalty within 100 miles. This radius will increase at a rate of one mile per year after the tree has been planted.
Once the tree of souls has been planted, however, it can never be moved again. For this reason, in anticipation of an eventual return to the mainland, Amlaruil and the leaders of the elves (those few who know of the tree's existence) do not wish to plant it on Evermeet.
Okay, so let's recap. The Elves have in their possession at this point the most powerful artifact in the entire world. Undoubtedly, the most important artifact of their entire people. An artifact that, by this point gives them the ability to freely cast High Magic in a radius of roughly 200 miles around Myth Drannor.
...and at this point, the best plan they can come up with is to crash the Shade Enclave into Myth Drannor killing any of their people who might be survivors, spitting on the lives of everyone who sacrificed themselves to reclaim the city, abandoning over a century of work rebuilding it, destroying the most prized and important artifact of the Elven people, and likely dealing a death blow to Elven culture and society in the process.
Was there no one in the room with a wisdom score above three? Was there no one there who could have at least spoke up and said, "Hey, look I think that sounds like a good idea, but we should actually ask someone who is smarter than us just to run it by them before we go through with it."
This is just nuts. I mean, I guess they forgot about the Tree of Souls (again). But damn. There has to be some serious consequences to this for the Elves in the Realms - some long term consequences.
I basically consider this to be a death blow to Elven culture and society in the Realms outside of Evermeet. There are probably some other isolated pockets that hang on, but over all - that was it. The Elves are pretty much done in the Realms. Evermeet, to my knowledge, is still hanging out in the Feywild, but who knows how that has changed the Elves who've been living there for the past century. The last real pocket of Elven culture and society on Toril is Evereska, which will likely become even more isolated as a result of this event.
Something like this can't happen without there being significant fallout and consequences. It would be so utterly ridiculous if they hand waved this away.
This is exactly why I allowed this event (the reclaiming of Myth Drannor) to happen in my Realms. It was the freakin' Elves Last Stand. They were going to reclaim their place in Faerun, or they were going to die trying. They were going all in... and... now it's gone. Now there are inevitable consequences to the failure of that last stand. Which would be, at least in my opinion, the death blow to Elven culture and society. There will never again be another Elven nation or power on Toril, and they will slowly fade into the shadow of humanity, losing their unique racial identity - their culture, their gods, and likely everything else that made them stand apart. They're done. That's the significance of this loss.
Talk about loss... Shar sacrificed Telamont to hit the jackpot. I'm pretty sure there are scores of Elves giving into despair at this very moment, calling out to Shar to deliver them from their miserable pointless existence. Sacrifice your not-so-loyal servants to doom an entire race of people? Shar: "Yes, please. I'll take that deal."
That, to me, is the appropriate consequence to what happened here. Really, anything less is hand waving. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 10:25:50
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@Aldrick:
Apart from the tree getting squashed, I don't think its all quite as bad as you paint it. It does appear that Evereska is the only remaining elven enclave of any significant size left in Faerun, but on the other hand there are a lot of elves remaining in places like Silverymoon, etc.
Also, the fact that Ilsevele (the ex-Coronal) apparently survived may indicate that Ed has plans for her as a leader of her people in future storylines.
On the other hand, it looks likely that the elves of the Moonwood are going to get a pasting in RAS's forthcoming Rise of the King at the combined hands of the drow + orcs of Many Arrows. The elves of Faerun just can't seem to catch an even break, huh (what with the track-record of Evereska vs the phaerimm etc). |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 10:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
@Aldrick:
Apart from the tree getting squashed, I don't think its all quite as bad as you paint it. It does appear that Evereska is the only remaining elven enclave of any significant size left in Faerun, but on the other hand there are a lot of elves remaining in places like Silverymoon, etc.
Also, the fact that Ilsevele (the ex-Coronal) apparently survived may indicate that Ed has plans for her as a leader of her people in future storylines.
On the other hand, it looks likely that the elves of the Moonwood are going to get a pasting in RAS's forthcoming Rise of the King at the combined hands of the drow + orcs of Many Arrows. The elves of Faerun just can't seem to catch an even break, huh (what with the track-record of Evereska vs the phaerimm etc).
Yes, I know there are Elves scattered around the Realms. I'm not saying they'll be wiped out of existence. I'm saying that they're going to fade into the shadow of humanity.
Imagine a Realms where there are no real cultural centers for the Elven people. They're all gone. Now project forward three or four Elven generations into the future, as the Elves have lived so closely among humans such as in Silverymoon.
Distinctive Elven culture and society is going to be washed away.
In canon we already had situations where Elven deities were being proclaimed as really human deities. I imagine that these beliefs took root in a place like Silverymoon, where Elves and humans intermix heavily. If only because it doesn't make sense for such a belief to take root in a place like Myth Drannor which is nearly exclusively Elven.
That's how the Elves lose their deities. It's basically what happened to all the human cultural deities that ended up being merged into the Faerunian Pantheon.
So, in the end, as the majority of the Elves in Faerun will end up among humans... their culture, their gods, and all of that will ultimately be lost.
In fact, I would make losing the Tree of Souls have an even more immediate consequence. I'd make it so that Elves lose their long lives, and begin to age at the same rate as humans. They'd also be able to breed at the same rate as humans. That could be a consequence of losing the Tree of Souls, and effectively losing a mystical connection with Corellon.
That way we can actually see the consequences play out in a realistic time frame. (With Elven long lives it could take hundreds of years.) |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 11:27:55
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| If memory serves, the Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor was only a sappling from the actual Tree (Last Mythal trilogy). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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johnkw2014
Acolyte
United Kingdom
1 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 12:13:27
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| So is Larloch dead now? Or has he just been de-powered. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 15:30:23
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I like to point out that Elven City Khelben died bring back to life, although I have no idea what happened to it still exists. Then thier are countless Elven Cities in the Feywild, plus the Yerwood, Elf Harrows, and who knows what else.
Faerun became less important in practical terms to the Elves when its magical mirror in the Feywild returned closer. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 17:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
If memory serves, the Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor was only a sappling from the actual Tree (Last Mythal trilogy).
According to the write up of the Tree of Souls once planted it will instantly "sprout into a gigantic (500-foot-tall), white-barked, oak-like tree with gleaming green and gold leaves." It's my impression that it doesn't grow any taller after that. However, even if that is considered a sapling for the tree, it can still never be moved once planted. So it's a moot point.
The tree is canonically in Myth Drannor. Thus it will always remain in Myth Drannor because it can't be removed - there was no way like dig it up and save it or anything. It was a one shot deal once planted, which is why it was never planted in Evermeet.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I like to point out that Elven City Khelben died bring back to life, although I have no idea what happened to it still exists. Then thier are countless Elven Cities in the Feywild, plus the Yerwood, Elf Harrows, and who knows what else.
Faerun became less important in practical terms to the Elves when its magical mirror in the Feywild returned closer.
You're right. I forgot about Rhymanthiin, but we don't know what happened to it post-Spellplague. It still exists according to the 4E FRCS, though very well hidden much like Evereska.
Basically, it's like I said - there are small and hidden pockets of Elves. They will continue, mostly hidden and remote, withdrawn from the world at large, but the majority of the Elves will forget about these places over several generations. After all, they're deliberately hidden and secretive places with no intention of throwing their doors open and welcoming hordes of strangers.
When it comes to the Feywild - it's true that the Elves that remained on Evermeet ended up there. However, we have no idea how that changed them. Being trapped in the Feywild for over a century is going to change you in some fundamental way. It's like being trapped in the Shadowfell, the Abyss, or the Nine Hells for a century - you don't walk out of that experience without being fundamentally changed.
What lives in the Feywild may be more Fey than Elf.
And even if they do return - they'd be on Evermeet, and there would literally be a huge ocean separating them from Faerun. That was the point of the Tree of Souls acting like a portal, which allowed the Elves to freely travel from Evermeet to the place it was planted. It allowed them to migrate easily back to the mainland.
Really, I can't be the only one that thinks that destroying Myth Drannor and the Tree of Souls should have some drastic and dire consequences, right? Are people seriously behind a giant hand wave when it comes to the previously established lore?
 This is why I hate RSE's. People like blowing stuff up, but no one likes the consequences. So they are ignored. It's like blowing up Zhentil Keep, having it completely rebuilt within one year, and then blowing it up again, and having it rebuilt a year after that. It's stuff like that which poisons the canon and the lore of the Realms. If you're going to blow something up, you should accept the fallout. Otherwise, don't blow it up at all. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2014 : 18:46:16
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If gods can come back from the dead, the Tree of Souls might not be as far gone. Of course resurrecting the Tree might need a great and mighty adventure.
But given the issues I have gain from the web, Mystra might want to make amends with Corelleon and the Elves for the troubles connected to her and her predicessors. Even if Shar was a major source of the problems. While she might not be able to duplicate the Tree (unless she can with the elven gods help), she might be able to create an artifact or series of artifacts which could duplicate most of the effects (again with elven help).
Of course, those might also need a great adventure as well.
Many of the non-human races have been setback but they have found bounce back. Say like the Elven version of the Dwarf's Thunder Blessing.
PS: When it comes to RSE, they break it but you/your heroes/your DM have to fix it... till wizards fix it. So ask your self, if Myth Drannor and the Tree of Souls are broken... how do you and your game fix it? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 03 Jun 2014 18:52:17 |
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my review of the Sundering *spoilers*
