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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 15:31:57
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*Sigh*
I don't have any insight into what they were thinking. So I'm interested in the explanation too but all I have is commentary. My guess is that it was tying up loose ends so that Mulhorand and Unther could be vanished in 4e. The effect was removing the another piece of unique flavor for a large part of the Realms, and basically dumbing down the setting.
I'm ignoring it too, because it isn't consistent with my version of the story either. Plus, the whole idea of giving the gods game mechanics and making them all the same was lame to begin with, and I'm anti-lame. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 15:53:04
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| Hm, interesting variation. I had assumed that there would be only one Tiamat, which would mean that she was never one of the God-Kings. In my interpretation, the Tiamat of Unther is the Tiamat of other settings and the Marduk of Unther is the Bahamut of other settings. These two wouldn't be affected by stuff (like the hypothetical return to the outer planes) that affects the God-Kings, because they're powers, and the God-Kings wouldn't be affected by things (like the ToT) which affected the powers. I hadn't considered that there might be two Tiamats. Food for thought. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 16:18:21
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Well it just struck me that the story of Tiamat didnt make sense.
She existed as a god on Toril since -30000 DR or thereabouts and yet needed the migration of the Untheric peoples to bring her worship to humans.
She was killed in the ToT and reformed only to have her avatar killed again while she was a demipower, and then still have enough deific energy to kill Gilgeam on his home plane.
Then in the deity writeup in the powers and pantheons book it lists several different avatars. One a multi-headed dragon, and one a human sorceress (and the undead multiheaded dragon but it states she creates that about 1360ish).
So it seems entirely plausible to me, especially given that Unther has its own pantheon that there were two Tiamat's running around since the Untheric people arrived on Toril.
The draconic Tiamat (multiheaded dragon), and the Untheric Tiamat (human sorceress that liked to take the shape of a multiheaded dragon).
Untheric Tiamat did indeed die after Gilgeam killed her last avatar (although i just think it makes more sense for him to have killed her on the Outer Planes). Then Draconic Tiamat takes all of Untheric Tiamat's power and worship and destroys Gilgeam once and for all (after all she now has dragon and human worshippers and the power of two gods).
It just seems cleaner to have two separate beings.
As for the ridiculous planar barrier. If i assume it was destroyed along with Imaskar then i dont think it makes a blind bit of difference to the history of the realms.
The gods that came to save their people are still here (or dead) and can have avatars and the mulhorandi create incarnations (otherwise known as chosen). The ones that didnt come with their people obviously didnt want to in the first place and so stay where they are.
I think i might have Unther survive Mulhorands war. Nanna-Sin never died in my history (He and Gilgeam were afflicted by a disease/poison while fighting Yurtrus that rendered Nanna-Sin comatosed as his body fought the infection. Gilgeam however succumbs to its effects and is gradually turned evil and mad. Gilgeam keeps Nanna-Sin comatosed through deific power and buries him in a god-tomb).
After Gilgeam's death, Nanna-Sin is awakened by the Ship of the Gods volcanic eruption and sets about getting revenge on Gilgeam (destruction of the citadel of black ash) and saving Unther (the legion of Nanna-Sin).
Hoar is still around so he can make an easy come back now that Gilgeam is gone.
Enlil of course just disappeared one day so it is again possible that an insane and evil Gilgeam had something to do with this and Enlil is imprisoned in Zigguraxis somewhere just waiting for Nanna-Sin and Hoar to reclaim it and free him. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 17:04:22
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Nice twists. I agree that Tiamat was handled weirdly. The official story is wholly irrational to me, so I went all the way back to the founding of Imaskar and I'm developing it as its own setting like Arcane Age.
The snippet you posted is in Lost Empires (page 63), so it's likely that Eric or George might know more about where it came from and why. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 17:08:00
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As far as i can tell, the removal of the Imaskari Planar Barrier served only the purpose of "fixing" the "problem" of Mulhorandi deities walking the Prime.
The assumptions that incarnations are Chosens is very wrong, incarnations are full powered avatars of a deity, not stinking mortals with a spark of deific power. The problem for the Mulhorandi deities up until 1358 is that that's all they've got, incarnations and lesser manifestations (i think that's the power scale but it may be the other way around) roaming around and succeeding one another as pharaohs/generals/head-of-churches.
So when after the Time of Troubles Ao does house-cleaning he finally lets the Mulhorandi deities leave the Prime and behave like all the other deities (as in: out of the Prime and acting through their churches).
Again, for all i know this reference only served to say "Alright, from now on there won't be gods walking around eastern Faerun anymore, peace!"
I'll note here that Bast/Sharess is one possible exception with the fact she roamed freely and became part of the larger Faerunian pantheon much earlier and i really don't know what all this might imply for Hoar and Tiamat, the only surviving Untheric powers in 1358.
EDITED FOR: quotation marks! Quotation marks everywhere! |
Edited by - Demzer on 19 Mar 2014 17:27:22 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 17:23:32
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I'll agree with the quotation marks around "fixing" but I would put them around "problem" too. I would contend that it wasn't a problem at all, partly because they didn't wander... they stayed within Mulhorand and in fact mostly within the city of Skuld. Even if that was a problem for someone there are better solutions than removing the one thing which distinguished the Old Empires from the north/west of the Inner Sea.
The God-Kings were not originally written in FR10 as deities, and the incarnations were not avatars. The manifestations were the God-Kings themselves; the incarnations were in fact mortals with a spark of divine power. Not Chosen, but definitely not gods.
Someone decided to make the God-Kings gods. That created the problem (probably without quotation marks this time) of gods living on Faerun instead of being in the Outer Planes where they belong. Or "belong." Greyhawk has Iuz and possibly others, but it's arguably a problem there so I'm not using it to justify gods on Faerun.
But Ao wasn't fixing a problem of God-Kings. Ao was fixing a problem of gods, which was created by WotC when they "fixed" something that wasn't broken.
Anyway, I will inevitably veer off-topic on this subject because the Old Empires is one of the more interesting parts of the Realms for me, rather than one of the less interesting places it seems to be for WotC. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 19 Mar 2014 17:27:09 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 17:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I'll agree with the quotation marks around "fixing" but I would put them around "problem" too.
Oh, yeah, sorry, i intended quotation marks for problem too. Will edit it.
EDIT: ... ah, yes, i mixed incarnations and manifestations up. Show to me how better it would be if i checked my sources before posting. |
Edited by - Demzer on 19 Mar 2014 17:33:40 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 19:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
My guess is that it was tying up loose ends so that Mulhorand and Unther could be vanished in 4e. The effect was removing the another piece of unique flavor for a large part of the Realms, and basically dumbing down the setting.
As has already been pointed out, this bit of lore comes from the 3rd-Edition sourcebook "Lost Empires of Faerūn". I just wanted to jump in and remind folks that the core design team on the "Grand History of the Realms" had zero knowledge of 4th-Edition during our time on the project, and as far as I'm aware, no timeline entries prior to 1376 DR were altered by WotC staffers to fit a pro-4E agenda.
As to those last few pages of the Grand History that set up the 4E transition... they were as much of a disappointing surprise to us as they were to everyone else. WotC did not trust us with this secret. If they had, I'm confident that we could have put forth a much more sensible and lore-appropriate transition plan then the deific soap opera we were left with. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 20:16:20
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Thanks Brian. I have never meant to blame you for the disgrace that got passed off as the story/plotline transitioning into 4e, parts of which unfortunately darkened the end of the Grand History. And the Grand History was a different sort of project than other books; more a gathering of existing lore and less a creation of new lore. Of course, we're rarely given names to attach to the decisions we don't like, which has the downside of leaving innocent authors holding the bag. The Grand History is an awesome reference, and has value for all FR players and DMs, including those who reject certain events or entire editions of the Realms, which puts it in good company like Ed Greenwood Presents. I hope that the same can be said for more of the books in future editions.
My guess that it was in preparation for 4e comes from statements/rumors that WotC's decision to not develop the Old Empires in 3e was a result of their belief that it was an unpopular/undesired "corner" of the Realms. Hence even at the outset of 3e they would have already been looking for ways to get rid of this region.
A more direct cause would be the lazy and uncreative decisions to melt the God-Kings into gods and squish all the gods into the same template. I'm just putting forth the possibility that the treatment of the God-Kings and the Imaskari shield was a result of a 3e desire to replace the Old Empires with something more generic and palatable-to-critics. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7973 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 22:11:00
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| Well I, for one, am keenly interested in the specifications of this planar barrier. Evidently powerful enough to stop the individual/combined efforts of some fairly powerful deities, requiring Ao himself to dispel. Also evidently attuned to affect only specific deities, yet have no real affect on other deities, planar travelers, and summoned fiends/etc. I wonder if Ao was somehow involved in the construction of this barrier. I also wonder why he couldnāt use this deity-barrier approach on his primordial-deity problems, instead having to resort to a split-world planar prison arrangement. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 23:15:05
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Ive long had issues with the dissolving of the Imaskari planar barrier, but my annoyance is with something else entirely. Recall that when the Imaskari started abducting slaves and transporting them to Toril, the Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons attempted to directly intervene on behalf of their worshipers. When the deities found that a planar barrier blocked direct contact with their flock
did they give up? Hell no! They created semi-divine manifestations of themselves and physically travelled through wildspace to circumnavigate the barrier. When they arrived on Toril, these manifestations proceeded to bring the greatest human empire Toril has ever know to utter ruin. My point is that these deities were extremely invested in the wellbeing of these slaves.
Fast forward to 1358 DR when Ao dissolves the Imaskari planar barrier. The semi-divine manifestations abandon the Old Empires and rejoin their divine essences in the Astral. What happens next? According to canon, absolutely nothing. These same deities that were previously so invested in their followers they went to extreme lengths to aid them, simple do nothing
letting the Faerūnian pantheon a foothold in the region.
Recall that many of the Sumerian/Babylonian manifestations were destroyed during the Orcgate Wars, and most of the Egyptian manifestation were killed off in the centuries since. Its important to note that the manifestation died, not the deities themselves.
With the Imaskari barrier dissolved as of 1358 DR, the once barred deities would now have unfettered access to Toril, able to manifest full avatars should they choose. In my vision of events, Marduk would have manifested on Toril the millisecond the planar barrier was dissolved, reestablishing his church in Unther and beginning the process of driving out Tiamat worshipers in the region.
Of course, I realize this didnt happen because the 3E designers wanted to downplay the Mulhorand and Untheric pantheons, not give them prominence. But if that was their goal, dissolving the Imaskar planar barrier was the last thing they should have done.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 00:30:32
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damn good points Brian, though I'll disagree a little bit. Basically, Ao took the kid gloves off these deities. The dead deities should not be able to manifest in the realms though without core worshippers and permission from Ao (after all, one might say the right to stay is earned by staying alive). The Mulhorandi did try to expand during 3e, but it was only brought up right at the very end, and I was really intrigued by this lore.... only to have the designers chunk it aside. I can only hope that 5e brings back these two countries as a strong group.
Oh, and I'd really love it if the royal bloodlines learned some means to channel the manifestations of their deities in times of need (or some kind of divine twinkage to the rulers to give them a nod to their heritage). It should be a major thing if someone manages to kill one of the god-kings, just like it was when on of the Thayan Tharchions did it. The idea of them having god-kings was a really great thing to have. In fact, it would be interesting if the dead Faerunian deity "Siamorphe" were accepted in their pantheon because she espoused the "divine right to rule". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 20:45:27
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| Just a quick clarification for the thread: the barrier was dissolved not in 3e, but in 2e's Power's and Pantheons. That was the same book that formally introduced it (instead of the "shrouded in legend" version from Old Empires). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 18:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well this is where its easier for me because i dont do core. There is only one world and that is Abeir Toril.
When the Unther and Mulhorand pantheons came over they essentially moved house and so when they died they died good and proper.
It makes life much simpler that way and cuts down the need for explanation.
The planar barrier merely stopped them getting here so easily and immediately so they had to travel physically in avatar form.
I reckon they put all their eggs into that one basket (avatar form) and once they arrived on Toril they probably liked being in the avatar form so much that they decided to stay for several millennia and sample physical pleasures. However the orcgate wars happened and several of them actually died so they promptly decided that dwelling on the outer planes as a metaphysical being wasnt so bad after all (better than being dead anyway).
What is curious is this quote
quote:
The first big change occurred when many of the Sumerian deities died in the Orcgate Wars. The Untheri found many new gods and goddesses to worship, all belonging to the Babylonian pantheon.
So after the orcs killed Nanna-Sin and several other gods then they magically found new gods from a different pantheon (which doesnt appear to have a people on Faerun).
So either the babylonian people came over with the sumerian and egyptian people from earth and the babylonians went somewhere else (like south into the Shaar). Or the Imaskari planar barrier did disappear long ago (when the Imaskari died) and they just poached a few more gods from earth.
Where's that quote come from? Basically, the Untheric people always seemed to have both Sumerian and Babylonian gods in it. Inanna, Nanna-Sin, Utu, Ki, Enki, and Enlil were all Sumerian. Nergal, Marduk, Ramman, Ishtar, Girru were all Babylonian. Presumably, Gilgamesh is Gilgeam (and to note, Gilgamesh was a hero, not a deity). What is kind of interesting is that Tiamat (the 5 headed draconic deity) is Marduk's traditional enemy in the Babylonian pantheon, but there's also a 3 headed draconic deity (Dahak, draconic spirit of death... but also a being with strong anti-magic item capabilities) in the Babylonian pantheon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 18:59:11
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Also: While that quote is vaguely familiar, I don't remember any specific indication in lore that the Untheric pantheon re-expanded after the Orcgate Wars. As Enlil "left the realms" (which he couldn't do, given the official interpretation of the planar barrier) and Gilgeam took over and began persecuting the followers of other god-kings, and killing the other god-kings when he could, the pantheon crumbled down to just him and Tiamat. Ultimately, he was the instrument of his own demise; he had exiled/killed all of his potential allies and inspired his own followers to defect to the church of Tiamat. This is a tragic story ending with poetic justice, which helps to justify Hoar's transformation/ascension into the Faerunian pantheon... the fate of the Untheric pantheon could serve as the boost needed to elevate him into the ranks of actual deities.
Otherwise, if new gods came in after the Orcgate Wars, then we have to come up with a plausible story of how Gilgeam was able to persecute those churches out of existence. This would create more headaches, because either (1) the new gods were actually god-kings who piggybacked with the Mulhorandi and early Untheric pantheons from the parallel universe --- gods I hate that storyline, (2) the new gods are actually Faerunian powers masquerading as the Babylonian pantheon -- in this case their priesthoods would campaign to preserve their new churches in the South and they would potentially have provided more opposition than Gilgeam would be able to overcome, or (3) the new "Babylonian" gods were nothing; neither god-kings nor powers; simply names which are worshiped with no deity behind them, which means their priests would not reliably get spells, which means that these churches probably wouldn't last more than a decade or a generation because they would fail to inspire awe or intimidate people sufficiently to provide a real alternative to Gilgeam's very palpable power.
Just more ranting. YMMV. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 19:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I reckon they put all their eggs into that one basket (avatar form) and once they arrived on Toril they probably liked being in the avatar form so much that they decided to stay for several millennia and sample physical pleasures. However the orcgate wars happened and several of them actually died so they promptly decided that dwelling on the outer planes as a metaphysical being wasnt so bad after all (better than being dead anyway).
The problem I have with this is that the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons were well-established, meaning that they weren't brand new deities. In my mind, they had to have taken avatar form before, so it doesn't make sense to me that they would decide to remain in avatar form for a few millennia out of a discovery of physical pleasures. The manifestations sent to Toril also knew their own mortality... Ptah told the foreign powers what they would have to do to reach Toril and rescue their worshipers, and how vulnerable they would be. They weren't simply avatars; they were essentially new/weaker powers. If they died, then they died, unlike avatars whose power would metaphysically return to the deity which could then form another avatar. This vulnerability would have prevented them from enjoying their existence as manifestations. In spite of the many problems with this storyline, the part about them returning to the Outer Planes as soon as possible makes good sense (assuming they were powers to begin with). If they started out as powers, then 1358 was the soonest they could return, unless you just move the dissolution to another date... but then you're not talking about smoothing out canon anymore and you might as well change the worst parts of the story instead of just the smallest details. 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So either the babylonian people came over with the sumerian and egyptian people from earth and the babylonians went somewhere else (like south into the Shaar). Or the Imaskari planar barrier did disappear long ago (when the Imaskari died) and they just poached a few more gods from earth.
Okay, I can deal with the Babylonian pantheon settling elsewhere. Given Unther's expansion into the Eastern Shaar, those deities would be easy alternatives after the Orcgate Wars. It even explains why both Babylonian and Sumerian deities died in the Wars, since all of the god-kings would have cooperated to repel the orc gods. This can fit, except for the lack of any mention of a third group of manifestations coming from the other world, and the lack of a third empire arising in the Shaar at the time of Mulhorand and Unther's rise. Unther expanded into the Shaar and built cities there, implying that it was either empty before that or else the last civilization there had crumbled, which in turn implies that any god-kings who settled in the Shaar would have already died or gone elsewhere before Unther expanded into their territory.
The bit about Ao dissolving the planar barrier after the Time of Troubles directly contradicts the idea that the barrier vanished with the fall of Imaskar. The entirety of FR10 also contradicts it, given that the manifestations would have returned to the outer planes immediately and there would never have been god-kings or incarnations in Mulhorand or Unther... just avatars.
All just my opinion, and I know I'm coming from a different place than you are. And I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm probably just too heavily invested in my own interpretation. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 19:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Babylonian people suffer calamity after calamity which diminishes their short lived empire soon after it starts (probably calamities initiated by the Sarrukh of Okoth). So over time more and more Babylonians travel north and easily integrate with the people of Unther, bringing their gods with them in waves.
The first wave of people from the Babylon empire are followers of Gilgeam so he is among the first gods to join the Untheric pantheon.
Enlil does not leave, he is imprisoned and his power stolen by Gilgeam who then systematically eliminates all the Sumerian and Babylonian gods (as they arrive).
I kind of like that Gilgeam actually evicted gods from the Untheric pantheon. That means they may yet survive as demi powers worshipped by only a few people (probably in the Shaar) and so when Gilgeam dies there is the opportunity for them to return.
Okay, it's definitely homebrew, but I can hush and deal with all of that.
I also like the idea of Untheric deities surviving, since they're powers in your story rather than something else. Gilgeam did most of his dirty work before the TOT, so their survival is not necessarily linked with the size/devotion of their churches. Even without significant numbers of followers, they could be "cuffed to the radiator" somewhere.
It's also possible that some/most of the old Untheric deities have small groups of followers (families/individuals who favor "the old ways") scattered across Chessenta, Chondath, Sembia, the Coaster cities, Aglarond, Thay, Murghom, and perhaps even the Dalelands, as Untheric explorers and colonizers spread far and wide, and some of the more peace-loving Untheric god-kings (I'm thinking Ishtar but there were undoubtedly others) would be pleasant alternatives to the prevalent faiths in other lands (like Thay). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 06:51:44
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It should be noted that the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons were from the same area with overlap, but separated by time (the Sumerian gods appear to be the older). The original deities and demi-gods even makes notes that THEY had problems separating out who would be in which pantheon. So, they weren't exactly a "pantheon" like we would call the Norse Pantheon, where they were formed from whole cloth. In fact, perhaps some of these deities were just simply demi-gods on Toril who got picked up by the Untheric pantheon whenever said demi-god heard about "others" of his pantheon "from another world" arriving in this new world.... and the demi-god travelled to Unther along with some of his priests. Maybe not all were "manifestations" in other words.
So, in other words, maybe some of the Untheric Pantheon was originally "Sumerian" and some was "Babylonian".... and then later, Ramman hears about them and he had people down in the Utter East or Zakhara or the hordelands. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 10:15:01
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| I'm fairly certain in the mid-late 1300s it's canon that Ramman is the Untheric-Chessentan name/aspect of Anhur (the Mulhorandi god of war). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 10:20:49
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I can't believed i missed something so obvious.
The Babylonian peoples settled Chessenta.
Unther wasnt settled until -2087 DR. They drove the Turami westward it says towards Turmish. Which of course doesnt add up because Chessenta is in the way.
In the Chessenta writeup it states it was established in -1771 DR after the first magistrate Chess decreed the local Turami people should be cleansed from the area.
The history states that Chessenta was established as a vassal of the Untheric Empire but we already know that any Untheric history is unreliable because Gilgeam was wont to rewrite it whenever something shone him in a bad light.
Ignoring the one mention of greco-roman influence in Chessenta that i could find in Old Empires (in a section about wrestling). Wrestling happens to be a favoured sport of Gilgeam's. Chessenta has a few old empire deities in it's pantheon but the lack of them could be explained by it being a melting pot for cultures. So i'm going to ignore any greek or roman parallels with Chessenta.
quote:
The peoples of Chessenta are of many races: common humans are the Mulani (Unther/Mulhorand), Turami (Turmish), Rashemi (Rashemen), and Amnite (Amn)
So as time progressed, Chessenta abandoned many of its old gods since they all moved to Unther and left it to its own devices, and new immigrants brought new gods that were much more receptive.
I'm going to go along the lines of Mulhorand, Unther, and Chessenta were all formed as separate empires with their own pantheons (Egyptian, Sumerian, and Babylonian). They took part in the orcgate wars together, and the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons were severely weakened as we know.
Now maybe it was Unther conquering Chessenta, maybe it was a mutual joining of the pantheons to strengthen themselves. But at some point before -735 DR (when Enlil "left"), the Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons joined together and then Gilgeam set about eliminating the competition.
Of course we know that Gilgeam moved to Unthalass and probably spent all his time there which caused feelings of resentment in Chessenta and eventually in the 900's DR they fall under the sway of Tchazzar and break away from Unther.
Gilgeam promptly writes them out of history so that according to Untheric history he and the other Babylonian gods were always from Unther (and as far as Mulhorand is concerned, they could never tell the difference between Babylonian and Sumerian anyway because they were so similar).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 14:31:02
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I haven't looked at all of that in awhile, but I know there was some discrepancies between different sources, especially concerning who-settled-who and who-ruled-who amongst the Old Empires.
It seems Chessenta both ruled, and was ruled-by, Unther, and also ruled Chondath, IIRC. Don't quote me on this one, though - as I said, this been awhile since I read through that stuff, and I may be mixing-up some of it.
I figure that each country (and we can even include Sespech in this) has its own history, that places it in the best light, and that over the many, MANY centuries they've all existed (in one form or another), who-ruled-who has shifted around quite a bit (as fitting for a eastern-Mediterranean knock-off). The conquered become the conquerors, and re-write history, ad infinitum.
Picture the original Mulan peoples living on vast plantations through much of the western Imaskari provinces. The Turami people also still dwelt in these regions - the Imaskari just didn't bother with 'the natives'. Then, after the Imaskari Godwar, they probably formed dozens - if not hundreds - of little kingdoms, and everything went back-and-forth for years - and driving the indigenous Turami population out (and west). Eventually, several strong empires emerged, after all those little kingdoms ate each other. The borders moving-around isn't just a recent event - its probably the natural state-of-affairs in that region, with cities switching sides, or going completely independent. Its very much like the western Mediterranean of Earth in this regard, during the Medieval (and ancient) period.
Part of the problem with FR - and fantasy settings in-general - is that we tend to think of the borders as 'static', which isn't realistic, especially in a setting like The Realms, where 'hard borders' don't even really exist. The borders are shifting constantly, all the time, in ways most of the rest of the world is unaware of.
Lets go back to what I said earlier - suppose I did misremember it (which I am starting to think I am)? What if I am thinking of the relationship between Chesenta and chondath? Suppose at some point in time a Chessentan Emperor decided to move his court over to Chondath for some reason (at the time Chondath was part of Chessenta). The Chessentans would have just had it as a footnote in THEIR history, if at all. On the other hand, the Chondathans might remember it as "the time they ruled over Chessenta", which would be accurate, depending on how you looked at things. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 23:56:44
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I agree with Markustay that most empires with large territories would have had little control over farflung provinces or cities. Similarly, those farflung areas would have been prone to bouts of independnece and revolt. Heck, Arabel did it to Cormyr with regularity and in relative terms was a city that was close to the main hub of power. I see both Chondath and Chessenta as regional names rather than kingdom names in the earlier histories and my personal preference is to downplay the Earth analogues and stereotypes where possible.
Chondath has always interested me historically as Ed often mentions the place or people from it. I agree with dazzlerdal that Chessenta is a bit of a blank slate history-wise. The Ancient Greece stylings are a bit much too. I'd love someone to come up with an original look and feel for the Old Empires. Sure, they had real Earth progenitors, but over thousands of FR years would have developed their own cultural aspects, attitudes and looks.
I'm knee deep trying to do a fleshed out complete history of Impiltur so don't have any time to devote to anything more than thoughts on the topic, but would love to see what people can come up with.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Imaskari Planar Barrier
