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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2017 :  23:01:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, there's Ruathym and Gunderlun on that map, and a tiny bit of The Purple Rocks (what an obnoxious name to type!). The only other 'large' (laughable) isle the Northmen come from is Tuern, way up north. So as small/funny as The Rivlands looks there, just think of how much worse the FR canon 'Northmen Realms' are! Even with the northern Moonshaes belonging to them, their homelands are ridiculously tiny compared to RW. They HAVE to come from 'elsewhere', which is backed-up by Ed's statements, of course, and some FR canon that says "they arrived from the south" (which is REALLY odd, but Ed did say portals were involved in that).

If its portals/gates, then it doesn't necessarily have to be from another world - it could be from Anchorômé, or some other landmass in that direction, or even in the Celestial Sea east of Kara-Tur (there is the huge honkin' 'arm' that extends across the top of the map from K-T).

EDIT:
Also, if they aren't 'from Earth', then perhaps it was a similar culture that originated in southern waters? Not necessarily near the southern pole - they could have been from a warm region. The Warhammer setting has some of their Norse-like folk (Norsca) coming from a jungle region (albeit they are descendants of ones that arrived from the north).

It could be FR's Northmen arrived 'from elsewhere', settled some other landmass on Toril (like that very large island to the south), and then spread north, where we see them today. So we could have some of those WH-style 'jungle Norse' in Fr somewhere.

EDIT2:
And thinking about where a group who have dragon-prows on their boats could have come from lead me right back to Abeir again.



So, the "Northmen" arrived from the south?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2017 :  02:27:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ayup.
quote:
From The North, pg.8 of Guide to the Savage Frontier
"In the far west, men also dwelled - wise, clever primitives called the Ice Hunters. They lived simple lives on the coast since time beyond reckoning, countless generations before Netheril's first founders set foot on the Narrow Sea's western shore. Yet this peaceful folk fell prey to another invasion from the south: crude longships that carried a tall, fair-haired, warlike race who displaced the Ice Hunters from their ancestral lands.
This race, known as the Northmen, spread farms and villages along the coast from the banks of the Winding Water to the gorges of the Mirar. Northmen warriors drove the simple Ice Hunters farther and farther north, forced the goblinkin back into their mountain haunts, and instigated the last Council of Illefarn. Within 500 years of the Northmen's arrival, Illefarn was no more - its residents had migrated to Evermeet."
Accent, mine.

You'll also note that this is where its inferred that the Netherese were not 'indigenous' to the Anauroch region, but came to be there from elsewhere.

It was also in that same introduction to The North's history that we learned of the creator races for the first time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2017 04:08:20
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KanzenAU
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Australia
545 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2017 :  03:27:03  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ayup.
quote:
From The North, pg.8 of Guide to the Savage Frontier
"In the far west, men also dwelled - wise, clever primitives called the Ice Hunters. They lived simple lives on the coast since time beyond reckoning, countless generations before Netheril's first founders set foot on the Narrow Sea's western shore. Yet this peaceful folk fell prey to another invasion from the south: crude longships that carried a tall, fair-haired, warlike race who displaced the Ice Hunters from their ancestral lands.
This race, known as the Northmen, spread farms and villages along the coast from the banks of the Winding Water to the gorges of the Mirar. Northmen warriors drove the simple Ice Hunters farther and farther north, forced the goblinkin back into their mountain haunts, and instigated the last Council of Illefarn. Within 500 years of the Northmen#146;s arrival, Illefarn was no more - its residents had migrated to Evermeet."
Accent, mine.

You'll also note that this is where its inferred that the Netherese were not 'indigenous' to the Anauroch region, but came to be there from elsewhere.

It was also in that same introduction to The North's history that we learned of the creator races for the first time.


I interpreted this "south" as being relative to the Ice Hunters rather than more widely ranging. Ruathym is southwest-ish of the North, for instance. I had imagined the Ruathym northlanders originally sailing directly east to the coast (just north of Waterdeep), and then pillaging up and down that coast. This way, they would be attacking the Ice Hunters (presumably around the northern coast from Fireshear to Leilon) from the south, ultimately driving them north.

Not even trying to massage the facts this time, this is just how I thought it happened. In addition to the above, (although I hate to keep bringing this up) we already know where the Northlanders came from, because Ed told us in his thread! I just don't see a need for imagining anywhere else.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 28 Mar 2017 :  03:37:35  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, from the south is right in the context of the original sources. It's just that later authors never picked up on this and wanted the Northmen to be vikings. They were called the Northmen because they came north, not because they were from the North. I tried to address this in my North timeline by having the Northmen come from the west and settle the various islands throughout the Trackless Sea and then start colonising the North proper from around Tavaray (current Lizard Marsh) northwards. It's a jury-rig but *shrug*.

In my view what should have been the case was that the Northmen were from the Moonshaes and the region of Amn, pushed out and north by other forces/people. Instead, they are the interlopers in the Moonshaes and the history of Amn is ... well kind of sketchy. I'll keep thinking about it.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
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USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2017 :  04:42:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could always use Evermeet.

Suppose this 'Northmen' culture came from northern Anchorômé (be it the large continent, or just the massive, wide-spread archipelago Eskember is a part of), and they sailed east and perhaps somewhat south - they run itno the bizarre weather patterns and 'magical chaos' that surrounds Evermeet. *Bing Bang Boom* they find themselves FAR to the south and east, in the vicinity of The Moonshaes (just looking at the maps, perhaps around the Wave Rocks would be best, which are between Ruathym and The Moonshaes, but somewhat west of them). From that point they spread outward, from whatever coasts they landed on. To the perception of the folks in Faerûn, they would have indeed 'come from the south'.

This exact same explanation could be used for the Utter East kingdom of Konigheim, if we say they wound-up even further south, off the coast of Chult, with most of them sailing north trying to find their 'cold homeland', but others sailing east looking for new places to settle (and eventually winding up in the Utter east). Of course, thats still WAAAAY too far to sail (blindly), in both directions, so maybe not. Near the Moonsahes is best, and then just have a portal dump some near the utter east at some point (I came up with one theory in my Candlekeep Compendium article, and I believe Brian James did a more normal version in his first 4e article on the Moonshaes, and while both are a bit over-the-top, even in the RW I would go with 'portals' over "they decided to go and explore and settle someplace insanely far away for no particular reason"... but thats just me).

And now you are forcing me (at gunpoint LOL) to modify the FRIA map I posted to include Ed's islands (version of Anchorômé), and then show a 'northmen migration' using arrows, like in old history books. Yeah... that would be sweeeeeeeet.

Its dadime (Dad's anime) time with my boys, so I'm off, but when I wake up tomorrow I shall attack this problem with much gusto... and coffee. LOTS of coffee.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2017 04:44:10
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sleyvas
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USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2017 :  00:38:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ayup.
quote:
From The North, pg.8 of Guide to the Savage Frontier
"In the far west, men also dwelled - wise, clever primitives called the Ice Hunters. They lived simple lives on the coast since time beyond reckoning, countless generations before Netheril's first founders set foot on the Narrow Sea's western shore. Yet this peaceful folk fell prey to another invasion from the south: crude longships that carried a tall, fair-haired, warlike race who displaced the Ice Hunters from their ancestral lands.
This race, known as the Northmen, spread farms and villages along the coast from the banks of the Winding Water to the gorges of the Mirar. Northmen warriors drove the simple Ice Hunters farther and farther north, forced the goblinkin back into their mountain haunts, and instigated the last Council of Illefarn. Within 500 years of the Northmen#146;s arrival, Illefarn was no more - its residents had migrated to Evermeet."
Accent, mine.

You'll also note that this is where its inferred that the Netherese were not 'indigenous' to the Anauroch region, but came to be there from elsewhere.

It was also in that same introduction to The North's history that we learned of the creator races for the first time.


I interpreted this "south" as being relative to the Ice Hunters rather than more widely ranging. Ruathym is southwest-ish of the North, for instance. I had imagined the Ruathym northlanders originally sailing directly east to the coast (just north of Waterdeep), and then pillaging up and down that coast. This way, they would be attacking the Ice Hunters (presumably around the northern coast from Fireshear to Leilon) from the south, ultimately driving them north.

Not even trying to massage the facts this time, this is just how I thought it happened. In addition to the above, (although I hate to keep bringing this up) we already know where the Northlanders came from, because Ed told us in his thread! I just don't see a need for imagining anywhere else.



Yeah, that's how I'd read that as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2017 :  00:52:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You could always use Evermeet.

Suppose this 'Northmen' culture came from northern Anchorômé (be it the large continent, or just the massive, wide-spread archipelago Eskember is a part of), and they sailed east and perhaps somewhat south - they run itno the bizarre weather patterns and 'magical chaos' that surrounds Evermeet. *Bing Bang Boom* they find themselves FAR to the south and east, in the vicinity of The Moonshaes (just looking at the maps, perhaps around the Wave Rocks would be best, which are between Ruathym and The Moonshaes, but somewhat west of them). From that point they spread outward, from whatever coasts they landed on. To the perception of the folks in Faerûn, they would have indeed 'come from the south'.

This exact same explanation could be used for the Utter East kingdom of Konigheim, if we say they wound-up even further south, off the coast of Chult, with most of them sailing north trying to find their 'cold homeland', but others sailing east looking for new places to settle (and eventually winding up in the Utter east). Of course, thats still WAAAAY too far to sail (blindly), in both directions, so maybe not. Near the Moonsahes is best, and then just have a portal dump some near the utter east at some point (I came up with one theory in my Candlekeep Compendium article, and I believe Brian James did a more normal version in his first 4e article on the Moonshaes, and while both are a bit over-the-top, even in the RW I would go with 'portals' over "they decided to go and explore and settle someplace insanely far away for no particular reason"... but thats just me).

And now you are forcing me (at gunpoint LOL) to modify the FRIA map I posted to include Ed's islands (version of Anchorômé), and then show a 'northmen migration' using arrows, like in old history books. Yeah... that would be sweeeeeeeet.

Its dadime (Dad's anime) time with my boys, so I'm off, but when I wake up tomorrow I shall attack this problem with much gusto... and coffee. LOTS of coffee.





I'm favored of your idea of the Anchorome idea, along with the idea of "Aurune" and the other large island near it. In fact, I'd probably throw a bunch of small islands between Aurune and the other large islands and thus making the use of longships as much more important. I'd even have it be multiple separate cultures of Northmen between Anchorome, Aurune, and that other island. Probably different pantheons too. Personally, if I were to use Aurune I'd also have some reason to have Aurune and that other island not be absolutely frozen (as in the north pole is actually even higher than we all think, and there actually being something to the idea of Ulutiu causing the great ice sea to extend as far south as it does)

I'd have the Poscardari elves still in the North lands (i.e. those who didn't go south to warmer climes) having conflicts with the Northmen.

Then I might even take your idea of taking the Knorrman of Jakandor and putting them in Osse (I'd say southwest coast). Maybe the other folk of Osse spell their name differently as Gnoermen or somesuch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  21:08:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just read that Tyr 'came over' to the Realms in -100 DR, which means about 1450 years before 1e, which means sometime in the early part of the 6th century (around 539 AD or so) on Earth. Vikings still worshiped the Norse pantheon at that time, but stopped about five centuries later. Just pointed that out because it all makes sense.

Perhaps the Norse deities foresaw the end (they did know about Ragnarok, after all) of their pantheon/rule, and some of them tried established churches on other worlds?

The Illuskans 'appeared' somewhere to the west of Faerûn around -3100 DR, according to the GhotR, and then settled Rauthym. Illusk was settled a century later. This means the cutlure appeared quite a bit before the first mention of Tyr. We can work with that, though. By the time he was thinking about leaving Earth, his people would have already well-established themselves on toril for a few thousand years, making it an ideal place to relocate (plus, the -100 DR source could be innaccurate - its from BRJ's Chronology. That could just be the date the first time Faerûnians became aware of Tyr (I doubt the Illusakns were stopping to chat with the people they were raiding on topics theological).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Apr 2017 21:39:47
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  01:57:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't have the Northmen as Tyr worshippers or vikings. Ed has stated that Tyr was a deity of the "Cradlelands" (i.e. the Vilhon/Old Empires region) and part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon for millennia. Geographically, that doesn't really work. I'm a fan of various regions having their own gods (some neighbouring regions worshipping the same god just using different names - which is why deities such as Silvanus, Mask and Auril have multiple names) for a long time before the Faerûnian pantheon coalesced out of the Dawn Cataclysm.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Ayrik
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Canada
6144 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  05:57:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyr as a deity could only arrive in the Realms (or any other world) after his faith was imported by travellers. For at least 50 years, lol. Or so sayeth the 2E rules from Spelljammer and Planescape. And we all know that gods of the Realms often break rules.

Regardless whether a particular group of Vikings worships Tyr, they all tend to worship some version of Norse mythology. The Yggdrasil world-tree is a prominent and constant feature of all Norse mythologies - as are the (nine) worlds it interconnects. I submit that we shouldn't assume Vikings came from Earth to the Realms. They might have come to Earth from the Realms. Or come from any of their nine worlds to any other - they may be spread across numerous worlds and planes, just like elves and dwarves and orcs, with no true "origin", each group might worship a different Norse-like pantheon and only know of a partial world-tree "map" to locally accessible worlds.

I suggest thinking of Yggdrasil as an entirely separate plane, not merely a fixture or conduit between other planes. It may overlap many worlds, and wherever it intersects there may be found some sort of Norse-like culture. The idea works for elves and the Feywild, why not also for Vikings?

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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moonbeast
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  06:59:17  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I understand that Tyr was incorporated into the Faerunian pantheon. Any reason why the other Earth Norse deities never made it to Toril? I mean, Odin (at least going by the classic AD&D Deities and Demigods) was a far more powerful deity than Tyr.
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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  07:33:52  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the idea is that Tyr is a deity native to Toril, namely Jhaamdath. He later expands to Earth and becomes a member of the Norse pantheon as well - not the other way around. Tyr's been on Toril for at least 5,000 years according to Ed, and if you're running concurrent worlds, Earth's vikings have been around for no more than a couple of thousand years, max (at a totally random guess). Timestreams in the different crystal spheres may be different though, so who knows.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  08:01:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The real reason is that one of Ed's players wanted to worship Tyr... and he let him.

But reality is kinda boring.

The only reason why I don't like the idea of doing the reversal with Tyr is because I've already done that with the entire Finnish Pantheon. However, I have NO problem with saying both Earth and Toril got Tyr from somewhere else (the planet Midgard?)

Even though I've also done that with the Eastern (Asian) deities (its a BIG Multiverse, so that one can get used over and over).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  09:33:37  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A bit off topic, but I kind of like the idea that none of the gods have ever actually been active on Earth - hence no divine magic - but planeswalkers have, including some followers of the various deities. In this example, a follower of the Great Wheel's Norse pantheon comes to Earth, lands in Scandinavia, and starts spreading the word among the early peoples there. The actual Norse pantheon don't end up taking interest in Earth, distracted as they are by other words (for instance, Tyr's interest is in Toril). It's not a perfect explanation by any means, but I haven't yet figured out why the gods would have been on Earth and not be active.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  20:07:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, one might assume that the 'D&D Earth' is the same one form the Gothic Earth Gazeteer (one of my favorite, oft-overlooked D&D products), in which magic is real, and gets used, and so are 'the gods' (and monsters) - its just that most folks just don't know about it. After all, we are talking about The Forgotten Realms here, and supposedly we get our info about the place by Elminster visiting Ed Greenwood, so either THIS Earth has magic and FR is real, or FR is connected to the D&D Earth (and thats actually canon - some TSR or WotC person explained the difference once), in which case magic works there (because Elminster and others have cast spells there), so why wouldn't gods also be real?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 20:08:51
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  16:46:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I think the idea is that Tyr is a deity native to Toril, namely Jhaamdath. He later expands to Earth and becomes a member of the Norse pantheon as well - not the other way around. Tyr's been on Toril for at least 5,000 years according to Ed, and if you're running concurrent worlds, Earth's vikings have been around for no more than a couple of thousand years, max (at a totally random guess). Timestreams in the different crystal spheres may be different though, so who knows.



Yeah, I picture the Jhaamdath "pantheon" as a mixture of Norse, Celtic, and Finnish deities, all of whom were simply interloping from what "earth" calls their pantheons. Then I'd throw in some deities whose stuff revolves around thought/psionics/dreams.



Based on some previous threads, I come up with the below

Auppenser
Borem
Lliira
Savra
Shaundakul
Valigan Thirdborn
Waukeen
Murdane (goddess of Pragmatism and Reason)
Helm (Heimdall) - who was in love with Murdane

other strong possibilities
Tyr (though he came later than Jhaamdath, there's some references that imply he may have been here prior under slightly different names like Anachtyr)

Talos (as either another name for Kozah OR a Jhaamdath deity) OR
Bhaelros (he's been in nearby Calimshan for millenia)

Umberlee (in possible relation to Murdane's death)
Silvanus
Oghma
Jergal (only mentioning him because there's some assumptions that he may have been down in the Shaar)
Garagos
Loviatar
Lathander
Sune
Eldath
Hoar the Doombringer (interloping from Unther and Chessenta)
Mystryl (only because of magic)
Leira (because a goddess of illusion seems to fit this region... working on belief and the mind)
Melith (a deity of creativity found in Chessenta, of which we have nothing other than an entry in Old Empires just saying she has creativity and not Lathander)
Malar


BTW, I love this from something Gray Richardson wrote back in 2006

Auppenser would come to love Eldath, a goddess of peace and the sea worshipped around the Sea of Fallen Stars area. As a nature goddess, she would have been aligned with Silvanus, but probably represented the more civilized aspects of the sea, including travel, sailing, peaceful contact and sea-trade, as well as the psionic discipline of psychoportation.

Together they bore (at least) 5 children:

Murdane (pragmatism, reason, foresight & clairsentience)
Waukeen (trade, communication & telepathy)
Valigan Thirdborn (anarchy, rebellion, free-thinking, & psychometabolism)
Liira (joy, dance & psychokinesis)
Melith (creativity, inspiration, self-expression & meta-creativity)



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Apr 2017 17:38:16
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  17:07:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just want to add what I said in the other (Aumanator) thread - the whole concept of 'pantheons' and 'multispheric' are really just mortal conventions.

ALL gods are 'multispheric', in that they go wherever they want. I went over the reasons why some would want to 'spread to other worlds', and some would prefer not to, in that other thread. We have to stop thinking in terms of gods 'belonging' to a certain world. THEY DON'T.

We are thinking in meta-games terms, because we know (RW) that these gods 'came from Earth', but that doesn't hold true in D&D. This is why they renamed the 'Egyptian' pantheon the 'Pharonic' one in newer sources. They should do the same with the Babylonian/Sumerian ones (and combine them, like how Greek & Roman are the same) - maybe call them something like 'the Potamian Pantheon' (because Mesopotamian is still a RW 'region' - maybe play-off the whole 'Fertile Crescent' thing and call them the 'Crescent Pantheon', which actually fits rather well, because most of the countries in the RW region use a crescent moon on their flags!)

I think the Greco-Roman pantheon got the same treatment in PS - its just called the 'Olympian Pantheon', which works. The Norse can just stay The Norse, because its not 'Northmen' or 'Scandanavia' or even 'Viking'. If someone did have a problem with it, it could just be the Asgardian Pantheon.

And all of these are more like 'private clubs' within the setting of Planescape (Great Wheel), and some gods may even be in more than one 'club' (while others may not be in any... they smell)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 17:08:30
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  18:16:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will jump in but only for a bit because i really dislike the god stuff.

The jhaamdathi pantheon like all other pantheons was not static. Over the few thousand years of jhaamdaths existence it changed a lot.

So assume jhaamdath was a normal natiom like others. It would have needed a naturr deity and other deities that related to powerful forces in the region. Over time jhaamdath took on a distinctly cerebral bent and so the pantheon morphed to reflect that.

Auppenser became god of knowledge. Murdane god of reason. Valigorn the antithesis of the two.

Jhaamdath also at various points in its past was expansionistic and violent so cue garagos the god of war


It is known that the jhaamdath and calishite pantheons started to merge. So we have anachtyr in calimshan and probably the anagram achanatyr in jhaamdath both representing justice and law. Iltyr was likely the beholder ripoff beast cult that began on the lake of steam. All tyrs unrelated to tyr who appeared after jhaadaths fall (tyr may mean something in some kind of divine language). Bhaelros almost certainly came from calimshan at some point.

Waukeen may have arrived later due to the emergence of trade between nations but it is equally possible she appeared after jhaamdaths fall.

Savras does seem a good fit but there is no concrete evidence so far.

Malyk was mentioned but its a different malyk than the underdark malyk (ed said many gods have the same name).


Borem was never a god. He was more of a localised menace that appeared in the far northern borders of jhaamdath. He may have appeared before but probably not in the same place.

Jergal was in a state of flux when he fled to the south. He gained some followers among the thrikreen but was mostly in hiding.



Before and after jhaamdaths fall the pantheons mixed as netherese refugees arrived. Thus we have the birth of new dieties and concepts born out of two disasters. Then the gods all change and some merge and some die out. We cant really state anything else with any confidence or certainty.

The remaining gods could be amalgamations of gods from multiple pantheons or entirely new ones from other pantheons or worlds.

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Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Edited by - dazzlerdal on 24 Apr 2017 18:29:00
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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  18:45:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyr emigrating from Toril has some possibilities. The Norse pantheon does include 'borrowed' deities from another pantheon - the Vanir (Tolkien's Valar, who should BE the original fey/Elven pantheon, before the Seldarine rose to prominence).)

And Silvanus is a 'Romanized' deity with Celtic origins (whos original name{s} is lost), so even in the RW we had pantheons borrowing from others (Ki is in at least two, that are geographically pretty damn far apart - possible Aryan deity?)

Interestingly, tracing the etymology of the name Tyr (Týr in Germanic), he may come from the Armenian Tir, who was much more like our FR Tyr (a god of wisdom, laws, and schooling). From Wikipedia:
"In the Hellenistic period Armenians considered Tir as the Greek gods Apollo and Hermes."

Apollo? Like Lathander?
On the other hand, FR doesn't HAVE a god of medicine (after all, we have divine healing), which is really odd, since most RW pantheons do have someone who serves in this respect. Tyr as Tir as Hermes could possibly work for us.

I am having a total 'brain fart' right now - where are both Savra and Valigan from? (we really need some sort of deific 'master list' around here).

I don't like giving Jhaamdath any Finnish gods - I give all those to Netheril (although I suppose a couple could have aliases in the other pantheon). I'd prefer to give Lurue to Jhaamdah, over Mystryl. Psionics seems to give magic-users some sort of 'leg up' over other casters (the equivalent of taking steroids in professional sports), and because of the psionic nature of Jhaamdath, and Lurue being a more 'primitive' take on magic (mana without rules, before Mystryl even came about), it just seem more natural for Jhaamdath to be 'in touch with' the earlier, more 'pristine' form of magic. Just my opinion, of course. Plus, once again, the Nethrese had Mystryl, and I'd like to keep the two 'mighty empires' as separate as possible.

As an aside to all this (and I feel another new thread coming on LOL), I'm thinking RW biology/genetics right now. We had this ancient culture in the west=central heartlands called the Talfir. The Netherese seem to have migrated from somewhere else, and 'from the east' makes the most sense (we already have the Northmen/Illuskans coming from the west, and a bunch of groups coming up from the south). Coming up from the SE we have the Turami and the Chondathans (Mulan?) right behind them. So now I'm thinking that if you don't use my 'Dathite' hypothesis (another group hinted at in canon to have been abducted by Imaskar), we could say that the modern-day chondathan group is really just the Mulan - and some Turami - that mixed with the indigenous Talfir in central Faerûn (so, 'olive skinned'). Then, as the chondathan group pushed even further into the Heartlands (pretty much all over the place), we had further mixing with the Talfir (a then-waning group), creating the modern 'Tethin' group (something racially looking like the people of the RW Iberian peninsula). Amnites would then be a mixture of that fairly recent group and the Calishite group - who most likely worked its way up from Zakhara.

ANYWAY (boy, does my brain get side-tracked), with all this 'new blood' mixing with the Talfir, and most especially with it mixing with the Mulan (people from another world), it would create an exponential increase in available genetic diversity - and the potentiality for 'mutations'.* In other words, its because of all that 'ethnic mixing' in central Faerûn that created the psionic abilites we see in Jhaamdath. And from that, maybe we can see how some powers - mortal and god alike - might not have liked where that was leading.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, I love this from something Gray Richardson wrote back in 2006

Auppenser would come to love Eldath, a goddess of peace and the sea worshipped around the Sea of Fallen Stars area. As a nature goddess, she would have been aligned with Silvanus, but probably represented the more civilized aspects of the sea, including travel, sailing, peaceful contact and sea-trade, as well as the psionic discipline of psychoportation.

Together they bore (at least) 5 children:

Murdane (pragmatism, reason, foresight & clairsentience)
Waukeen (trade, communication & telepathy)
Valigan Thirdborn (anarchy, rebellion, free-thinking, & psychometabolism)
Liira (joy, dance & psychokinesis)
Melith (creativity, inspiration, self-expression & meta-creativity)

Thats pretty cool - I hadn't been aware of that. Must have missed it somehow. Sometimes I get so enthralled with my own 'Over-Cosmology' that I tend to ignore other people's thoughts on the matter, which I am trying to change, because other people come up with some awfully nifty stuff.

It also happens to fit-in with my current line of reasoning for 'all things cosmological'. That archtypes at first 'seed' worlds (they are interested in) with versions of themselves. So at first, every world only has a handful of gods. Then those gods - who are autonomous aspects of the achtype - start developing their own life/history, and have their own relationships with others (in some cases, relationships that would shock their archtype forebears). Thus, we get a 'second wave' of deities. Then we get a third, and fourth, etc. After a time, these 'new gods' would not only be getting extremely numerous, they'd be showing back up on the Great Wheel and wanting a piece of the larger pie, which would be quite irksome to the 'Elder Gods' who don't care for all these upstarts.

And when 'Bane 7.0' shows up and kills and takes the place of 'Bane Prime', who's really gonna know? His closest friends? Not many of those, and they probably wouldn't care. Mortals wouldn't know a damn thing. And once again, I am seeing aig parallel between how gods work, and how vampire lore works in most settings - you have a 'Primogen' (ancient creator), and those create new ones, and so on, and so forth, with each successive generation getting weaker. Except every so often one of these 'newbs' gets really powerful, and takes the place of their 'upline'(their own creator).



*In the RW, 'mutts' (creatures who's genetic material came from more than one group, 'breed' in animal terms, and 'ethnicity' in people terms) are far more intelligent than 'pure breeds' (creatures with limited genetic diversity), Thus, my assumption here that [/i]multispheric[/i] interbreeding would cause an even greater potentiality in mental capabilities. A leap, I know, but Scify actually uses that one a lot.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 18:49:13
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  18:50:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



BTW, I love this from something Gray Richardson wrote back in 2006

Auppenser would come to love Eldath, a goddess of peace and the sea worshipped around the Sea of Fallen Stars area. As a nature goddess, she would have been aligned with Silvanus, but probably represented the more civilized aspects of the sea, including travel, sailing, peaceful contact and sea-trade, as well as the psionic discipline of psychoportation.

Together they bore (at least) 5 children:

Murdane (pragmatism, reason, foresight & clairsentience)
Waukeen (trade, communication & telepathy)
Valigan Thirdborn (anarchy, rebellion, free-thinking, & psychometabolism)
Liira (joy, dance & psychokinesis)
Melith (creativity, inspiration, self-expression & meta-creativity)






I don't recognize this... Where is it from?

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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  19:13:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found the old thread where they discussed the theoretical Jhaamdath pantheon. Pretty cool stuff. I think I was till (mostly) over at the WotC forums back then.

Soooooo... if Valigan* is Loki, wouldn't that make Auppenser Odin? He was known for wisdom (even traded his eye for it).

And since I think Annam is Odin (Woten - he's the original version),that would make Auppenser Annam. Hmmmm... I am going to have to think on that one. It has definite possibilities.

EDIT: Nevrmind - stupid Marvel comics screwing up RW mythology. Odin ISN'T Loki's father. Thus, Auppenser would not be Annam. However, it means Auppenser may have gone by the name Fárbauti.

Can you tell I love the idea of somehow slipping Loki into canon, through the back door?

EDIT2:
Added the link above for Wooly.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 19:18:35
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  19:21:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Found the old thread where they discussed the theoretical Jhaamdath pantheon. Pretty cool stuff. I think I was till (mostly) over at the WotC forums back then.

Soooooo... if Valigan* is Loki, wouldn't that make Auppenser Odin? He was known for wisdom (even traded his eye for it).

And since I think Annam is Odin (Woten - he's the original version),that would make Auppenser Annam. Hmmmm... I am going to have to think on that one. It has definite possibilities.

EDIT: Nevrmind - stupid Marvel comics screwing up RW mythology. Odin ISN'T Loki's father. Thus, Auppenser would not be Annam. However, it means Auppenser may have gone by the name Fárbauti.

Can you tell I love the idea of somehow slipping Loki into canon, through the back door?

EDIT2:
Added the link above for Wooly.



Thankee... I was actually just coming to delete my post, because I decided to do a bit of Google-fu and found that thread.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Apr 2017 19:22:14
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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  19:39:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There seems to have been some sort of 'heated discussion' in that thread, and posts were removed. DRAMA

I'm glad to see some 'grognards' have come around and finally accepted that The Forgotten Realms is NOT the 'end all, be all' of D&D. That it is a subset, and you can't actually say a subset trumps the over-setting (which would have been Planescape at that time). I realize the rule is "specific lore trumps generic lore', but this isn't quite the same thing. You are talking about an umbrella setting vs. the sub-settings.

It only trumps it in terms of the lore itself (which equates to 'mortal belief', which is true as far as the setting goes... but 'truth' is subjective, and can change thanks to dogma). Besides, so much has changed since 2006, the points of contention in that thread are small by comparison, in hindsight.

Still, I would have love to have seen Kuje's references...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 20:30:38
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