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Aquanova
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Posted - 04 Jan 2006 :  18:35:41  Show Profile  Visit Aquanova's Homepage Send Aquanova a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have several questions for some of you loremasters. I need some information on the ancient Jhaamdathan pantheon, mainly the roster. Also, was there ever a mercantile deity or naval deity in said pantheon? Ala Waukeen or Valkur, possibly?

In case you're wondering, it's because I'd like to implement aventi (from Stormwrack) into the Realms, and I'd like to be consistent and prudent. Any information would be helpful.

Dargoth
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Posted - 04 Jan 2006 :  22:33:03  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Officially its never been detailed (With obvious exception of Auppenser)

For my Jhaamdath article Ive created the following unofficial Jhaamdathan pantheon

Auppenser
Borem
Deneir
Lliira
Savra
Shaundakul
Valigan (Third Born)
Waukeen

With the exceptions of Liira and Borem all of the deities are children of Auppenser. Lliira is Valigans daughter

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  00:48:05  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been toying with a project to detail all the pantheons for the various human races before they became one, cohesive Faerūnian pantheon. I've made a start but other recent projects have sidetracked me. What struck me early on however was the utility of deities such as Chauntea, Myrkul/Jergal, Oghma, Silvanus, Talos and a few others. As such, I thought that every pantheon would include Chauntea and others, but not necessarily AS Chauntea (in other words, they'd call the deity something else). As for the Jhaamdathan pantheon, I'd add a version of Chauntea (hey, they gotta eat), Garagos, Jergal and Bhaelros (Talos).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Dargoth
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  01:00:42  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I've been toying with a project to detail all the pantheons for the various human races before they became one, cohesive Faerūnian pantheon. I've made a start but other recent projects have sidetracked me. What struck me early on however was the utility of deities such as Chauntea, Myrkul/Jergal, Oghma, Silvanus, Talos and a few others. As such, I thought that every pantheon would include Chauntea and others, but not necessarily AS Chauntea (in other words, they'd call the deity something else). As for the Jhaamdathan pantheon, I'd add a version of Chauntea (hey, they gotta eat), Garagos, Jergal and Bhaelros (Talos).

-- George Krashos




Hmm I am missing a nature god

Valigan is god of Anarchy so he sort of doubles as the god of destruction. Borem is the god of Anger which makes Jergal (god of Hatred) uneccessary

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The Sage
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  01:01:42  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

As such, I thought that every pantheon would include Chauntea and others, but not necessarily AS Chauntea (in other words, they'd call the deity something else).
Hmmm... we know that Chauntea has grown as Toril has grown -- changing and developing as the world evolves. Perhaps the Chauntea of the Jhaamdathan pantheon is actually a derivative form or earlier interpretation of the Grain Goddess.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  02:40:07  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hmm I am missing a nature god

Valigan is god of Anarchy so he sort of doubles as the god of destruction. Borem is the god of Anger which makes Jergal (god of Hatred) uneccessary



I was thinking Jergal more as a god of the dead. You've got nothing for that either. And given Garagos' geographical links with Jhaamdathan territory or spheres of influences (Dragon Coast and Border Kingdoms) I'd suggest him as your chief war god with perhaps Borem as an early version of Assuran (Hoar), later subsumed. Just a few thoughts.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  02:41:12  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not being up on the "gods" like the rest of you, where does it say Silvanus and Oghma are interloper deities? F&A? F&P? Just curious.

-- George Krashos




Mod Edit: Removed Kuje's post

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - The Sage on 05 Jan 2006 13:43:09
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1804 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  02:49:29  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Not being up on the "gods" like the rest of you, where does it say Silvanus and Oghma are interloper deities? F&A? F&P? Just curious.

-- George Krashos




I would posit that Jergal is a non-human, alien deity who has been worshiped in the Realms for a very long time. He's likely to have been worshiped in scattered locales around the Realms, including the Chultengar and north of the Lake of Steam.

See my conversion notes for "Spires of the Long Shadows" on the Paizo site when they are eventually posted.

Look closely at his picture in Prince of Lies (the novel) and see if you can spot a resemblance to a certain race in the Monster Manual ...

--Eric



Mod Edit: Removed Kuje's post

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Edited by - The Sage on 05 Jan 2006 13:43:45
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KnightErrantJR
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  03:03:40  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always thought he reminded me of an Ultraloth, but that's not in the monster manual . . .

From the 3.5 MM, Chokers and Dopplegangers . . . I'd vote for the latter if anything sinister is involved . . .

Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 05 Jan 2006 03:17:03
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  04:19:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh, that's where we differ in approach. I don't let products without the FR logo on them to mess with 'my' Realms (mainly because I don't have any of the Planescape material!). Given the change in editions, Planescape material arguably isn't binding on the Realms anymore - even if people thought it so to begin with (and I don't).

And I'm not sure (but I'll check) that the references in the 1E Cyclopedia were talking about the Realms so much as where to find information on the gods in question, or where they have 'real life' origins. Of course, there are allusions to our world and the Realms co-existing in the planar firmament, so the references to Tyche, Loviatar et. al. may be a 'lore' reference and not a 'game mechanic' reference, but as I said, I'll have to check.

For consistency's sake, we'd no doubt want to be as inclusive as possible re Planescape, but what suits the Realms (ala having a nature deity or deity of learning that is indigenous to the setting) may not suit Planescape. In that case, I help the Realms first and Planescape as a dead product line can look after itself.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Jan 2006 04:23:48
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  04:26:38  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and one last thing, just because you are an interloper deity may not necessarily mean that you weren't there from 'the beginning' or close to it. You might simply have turned up 10 minutes after the natural, indigenous deities burst forth into godhood - a bit like the Vulcans in "First Contact" noticing humans using warp technology for the first time.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe

USA
565 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  06:38:34  Show Profile Send Dhomal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Officially its never been detailed (With obvious exception of Auppenser)

For my Jhaamdath article Ive created the following unofficial Jhaamdathan pantheon

Auppenser
Borem
Deneir
Lliira
Savra
Shaundakul
Valigan (Third Born)
Waukeen

With the exceptions of Liira and Borem all of the deities are children of Auppenser. Lliira is Valigans daughter



Hello-

Well - I agree with the others - that a nature deity should probably be present. :) I would also like to add that I'm surprised - but pleased to see you include Shaundakul!

Now - the question - you said at the beginning - " For my Jhaamdath article " - WHat are you referring to exactly? I am curious mainly because I am a big fan of Shaundakul - and would welcome more information! :)

Also - you mentioned that - with 2 exceptions - the deities were all children of Auppenser - is that something you have come up with - or is that documented someplace?

Just curious mainly - Oh - and I dont know about anyone else - but I see Shaundakul's influence growing - as if I recall correctly - part of his portfolio is portals - which seem to have gotten a big 'step-up' in the more recent Realms info.

Dhomal

I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  07:19:08  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't say that we shouldn't include Planescape references or Spelljammer or GH or DL or anything. What I was trying to say (and obviously failing miserably) is that those references are secondary to the Realms and should be shaped to fit the Realms as it is currently and has evolved since 1987 in published products.

Just what is the fascination with Sigil anyway? I can't think of a single way in which Sigil affects the Realms other than being a potential hub for travellers both leaving or coming to the Realms. If the former, then you really have a generic, planar campaign with few if any FR tie-ins other than gods specific to Toril or other planar wanderers from the Realms. If the latter, then the fact that such travellers have come from a place called Sigil is about as important as if they came from my home town of Adelaide. They are in the Realms - that's what is important.

I look outward from the Realms, not from the outside into the Realms. I'm certainly not going to model my Nine Hells on a bunch of 2E Planescape accessories when I've got Ed's awesome series of FR articles on the Hells. My rulers of the Hells include Moloch, Geryon and Baalzebul and forget the changes wrought otherwise - because in the Realms, that's the way it should be and always has been. Despite what you say regarding Ed not following the "Only FR logo'd products are for FR" attitude (which misrepresents what I was saying and isn't my attitude at all), Ed does just what I do - he looks at the Realms first and the rest follows in train. "Elminster in Hell" with his treatment of Mystra's travels there, ability to affect Asmodeus et. al. are cases in point. As I understand it, from a Planescape point of view, neither of those things could or should happen. But they did.

But I do acknowledge your point re the deities of other pantheons coming from elsewhere and establishing their worship in the Realms. As to whether such aspects of the Realms should be viewed through the lens of the Planescape material is another matter entirely.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Jan 2006 07:20:27
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  07:54:51  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I get a strong sense that Silvanus is the son of Chauntea. I don't remember where I recall that reference from. If he is the son of Chauntea then he would not necessarily be an interloper, right?

I can think of a way that Silvanus could both be the son of Chauntea, a native born Realms god and still be consistent with the name Silvanus being from an interloper god.

Assume you have a native born nature deity, son of Chauntea, lets call him Oak Father. And there is a god of the Gauls/Celts/Romans on Earth and possibly other spheres named Silvanus who may or may not have interloped into Faerūn.

Scenario 1) Silvanus never interloped but some people from Earth migrate to Faerūn and pray to the Celtic/Gallic/Roman god Silvanus. The Oak Father adopts that name as an alias and answers their prayers as Silvanus. After awhile, he becomes so well known as Silvanus that it supplants his original name.

Scenario 2) Silvanus does interlope, but after a time his worship wanes and the Oak Father absorbs Silvanus into himself, taking on his name which later becomes the primary name for the combined deity.

Scenario 3) Silvanus does interlope, and the myth of Silvanus becomes so intertwined with the myth of an ancient and moribund Oak Father that Silvanus absorbs Oak Father, with the Silvanus personality dominant.

There are precedents for this theory. I am thinking of how Zandilar merged with Bast to become Sharess. Also there is some indication that when Tyr interloped into Faerūn, he afterwards merged with a moribund calish'te god named Anach or Anachtyr.
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  07:57:31  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and one other possibility: Silvanus might be a native deity of Toril that interloped into the Celtic pantheon. Just a thought.
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  08:20:12  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, I very much agree with George that there may be some gods who were trans-pantheonic (for lack of a better term): Mystryl/Mystra, Jergal/Death, and Chauntea are prime candidates.

In some cases these gods might have used alternate names (aliases) between different pantheons (eg: Chauntea/Jannath) or might have splintered off distinct aspects, becoming fragmented.

I suspect the god of War actually fragmented into Garagos, Tempus, Tempos, Targus, etc. to service isolated and distant populations. Likewise I believe one original god of destruction and storms splintered into Talos, Kozah, Bhaelros (and Malyk?).

As the isolated Faerūnian cultures began to merge back together into a greater Faerūnian super-culture, so too did the fragments of these gods merge back to some degree, or in the case of War, the fragments seem to have battled for superiority, with Targus getting slain and Tempus triumphant over Garagos (Garagos only survived by yielding his portfolios to Tempus and adopting unclaimed related portfolios).

I agree with George that Jergal, because of his unique function as keeper of the Fugue, would have had to be the same figure in every pantheon. Maybe not worshipped, maybe not called by the same name everywhere, but certainly at least known in every pantheon and not challenged by any competing death deities.
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Kuje
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  08:22:09  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nevermind,

I don't want to argue this, even though I was asked to supply the references that have been ignored. Could Alaundo or the Sage edit the posts that I was quoted on since I deleted my replies that were quoted. Thanks.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 05 Jan 2006 08:26:15
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  08:25:49  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Oh, and one other possibility: Silvanus might be a native deity of Toril that interloped into the Celtic pantheon. Just a thought.



--quote removed by Gray at request of quotee--

Well, its just a theory. I am putting it out there for people to poke holes in if they see any. Even still, he could have been native to Faerūn originally, interloped into the Celtic pantheon and later interloped back to Toril.

Toril has so many interloper gods, and has had so many close ties to Earth, why can't we assume, that within the context of this fictional universe, that a god interloped from Toril to Earth (or beyond) and became much more famous in his adopted pantheon? And from there it is not too far of a stretch to think that god might return home after his popularity and worship abroad had waned? And why wouldn't he return to Toril? Not much left for him on Earth in the way of worshippers these days...

Edited by - Gray Richardson on 05 Jan 2006 09:40:18
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  09:37:37  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here are the gods I think were probably in the Jhaamdathan pantheon:

Auppenser
Garagos
Helm
Borem
Murdane (perhaps a daughter of Auppenser)
Nobanion
Silvanus was worshipped in the Chondalwood & Vilhon Reach area, but I don't know how far back. I don't know if he was actually part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon or not, and in fact might be better associated with the North and the Talfiric pantheon. Although he might have been allied with the elves & Chondalwood inhabitants in opposition to Jhaamdath.
Valigan Thirdborn (possibly the thirdborn child of Auppenser, but alternatively he could have been an ascended mortal who arose in the Jhaamdath area after Jhaamdath had already fallen to the elven cataclysm. Not sure if Valigan's rise in -269 DR was an initial rise to power, or more of a revival after he had been forgotten following a long period of Pax Jhaamdatha. Valigan's portfolio of Anarchy seems a lot like Bane's portfolio of strife, so if Bane got strife from Borem, then Borem might have obtained custody of strife for a time in the wake of Tyr slaying Valigan in -247 DR.)
Malyk (this guy is just weak speculation, he may rather be an ascended mortal or a god of the Underdark. But his name comes up in relation to Talos so I had an inkling he could be the Jhaamdathan storm god.)

Shaundakul was big in Myth Drannor, and in the pantheon of the ancient Rus and was big in the Moonsea area. Not sure if he was venerated as far South as Jhaamdath, although we can't rule it out.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  13:46:42  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Nevermind,

I don't want to argue this, even though I was asked to supply the references that have been ignored. Could Alaundo or the Sage edit the posts that I was quoted on since I deleted my replies that were quoted. Thanks.

'Tis done .

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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  18:47:07  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since Shaundakul's center of worship was in Myth Drannor, it is reasonable to assume that he was worshipped in the Jhaamdath/Chondath area. There seems to be very few bits of Realmslore about his origin, though.

Shaundakul is also known in Anauroch as 'the Lurker in the Sands' (Beshaba in disguise, if my memory serves me). This might indicate that he has played in that area as well, perhaps in the post-Netheril era?

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  19:11:58  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The reference to Malyk comes from a rumor in the Menzoberranzan boxed set. I built on this in a Polyhedron article in my Forgotten Deities series a long time back.

--Eric

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 05 Jan 2006 :  19:13:12  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For inspiration on the Jhaamdathan pantheon, I would suggest looking at the Seven Lost Gods (the current set and their predecessors). I think I listed them in Cloak & Dagger in the Westgate section or in the C&D web enhancement timeline.

--Eric

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The Sage
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Posted - 06 Jan 2006 :  00:12:11  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

For inspiration on the Jhaamdathan pantheon, I would suggest looking at the Seven Lost Gods (the current set and their predecessors). I think I listed them in Cloak & Dagger in the Westgate section or in the C&D web enhancement timeline.

--Eric

Aye... the Shrines are mentioned in C&D. And you put the listing in the C&D web enhancement which, for the curious, can be found here:- http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/WGtimeline.doc

The other C&D enhancement, a listing of royal dynasties in Westgate, is also available here:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010327d

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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 06 Jan 2006 :  01:55:46  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I made an error above. I thought Nobanion might have been in the Jhaamdathan pantheon. I had the right place but wrong time period. He is definitely worshipped in the area but he is an interloper god and only interloped a few centuries ago. Nobanion could not have been known in Jhaamdath.
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 06 Jan 2006 :  10:53:35  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, if the seven hills outside Westgate are any indication, then we could likely include: Savras, Silvanus, Ghaunadaur, Moander, Jergal, and Garagos in the Jhaamdathan pantheon.

This seems to affirm that the proto-human pantheons were not exclusive and that there were certain trans-pantheonic deities. Jergal as the god of death appears to have been known both by the Jhaamdathans and the Netherese. Moander seems also known to both the Jhaamdathans and Netherese. Silvanus was likely known in both the Jhaamdathan and Talfiric pantheons.
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