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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3084 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2017 :  11:53:26  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Links working fine for me as well. Perhaps try a different browser?

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6918 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2017 :  12:29:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

btw, for some reason that link doesn't work for me. Not sure why.



It works for me. Do other Bitly links work for you? If you're using a blocker program, it might be preventing it from operating.

Jeff



Weird, working now. Guessing something with my ISP.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6918 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2017 :  12:39:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Water Lion the Sharkslayer: http://bit.ly/2x7BNwt

Water Lion is an unusual and mysterious deity who wanders the planes for reasons unknown, although there are many theories about his purpose. He has only a small and dispersed following among the aquatic races, mostly loners and hunters.

Jeff



Hmmm, I like this guy. Where is he from? Is he maybe someone I forgot from Monster Mythology or somewhere else entirely?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2017 :  15:48:51  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I like this guy. Where is he from? Is he maybe someone I forgot from Monster Mythology or somewhere else entirely?



He's from Monster Mythology, p.95. He doesn't get much mention anywhere else, though.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6918 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2017 :  02:26:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I like this guy. Where is he from? Is he maybe someone I forgot from Monster Mythology or somewhere else entirely?



He's from Monster Mythology, p.95. He doesn't get much mention anywhere else, though.

Jeff



That settles it then, I may have to use him with my cat folk as a sea god.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  02:01:10  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quorlinn the Filcher: http://bit.ly/2iTi41K

The patron of the kenku is one of the more interesting deities in the AD&D game, because heís not terribly comfortable having the responsibilities of godhood that have been thrust upon him. This isnít exactly a rare situation, however; what makes Quorlinn different is that he was never a mortal like most of those who share those feelings. It creates a much more interesting deity, as does the merging of eastern and western elements that kenku represent.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15652 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  02:21:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very nice.

No love for the Dire Corbies?

There was also a Horde (Tuigan) specific variant. 'Manni' I think.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 02:22:44
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  03:38:24  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Very nice.

No love for the Dire Corbies?

There was also a Horde (Tuigan) specific variant. 'Manni' I think.



Kenku and Tengu (in AD&D at least) have arms and wings, whereas Manni only have wings (with hands on them). I don't see them as particularly closely related. I would have Manni be closely related to Ravenloft's Ravenkin (MC10), who are very similar in appearance. They'd also be more closely related to Aarakocra than Kenku.

I don't really know much about Dire Corbies, partly because they never got their own individual MC sheet with artwork. They don't (and didn't) have arms and wings, though, so I would not have them closely related to the kenku.

I haven't paid that much attention to the lore on the creator races, but IMO, I would say kenku are not descended from the avian creator race, and instead originate in the east, either as the forebearers of the tengu or descended from them.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  23:11:00  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sekolah the Great Shark: http://bit.ly/2iyzGR3

Sekolah is the patron of the so-called Sea Devils, one of the greatest scourges of the deeps and the shallows. He did not create them, instead having adopted them as his chosen when he discovered them on one of his many great hunts among all the seas of the worlds, and molded them into the powerful and dangerous society they are today.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2018 :  19:57:09  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sess'innek the Emperor Lizard: http://bit.ly/2EuSHcW

Happy New Year everyone! The ascended tanar'ri lord Sess'innek, long ago tiring of the Blood War, turned to followers on the Prime Material Plane as another path to power. Seeing the general complacency of Semuanya, he has been slowly usurping that power's authority over the lizard men with the creation and leadership of his chosen followers, the Lizard Kings.

Jeff


My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2018 :  06:47:46  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Krocaa the Crimsonfeather: http://bit.ly/2BL3ddK

Krocaa was introduced in Dragon #124 as the deity of the aarakocra. With DMGR4 Monster Mythology, however, he was replaced with Syranita. Combining the pair into a small pantheon required some alterations to his original characterization and dogma to make the pair synergize well, with Krocaa being more of an active defender than Syranita, with an additional emphasis on hunting.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15652 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  06:28:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting - nice find. Glad you were able to keep both (I just happen to mention the Aearee/Aarakocra pantheon a few minutes ago - I was musing about how Aerdrie Faenya may have been a power that shifted from the bird-folk pantheons over to the Seldarine). I wanted to try and tie her to Fileet/Tyaa but the personalities are too different (different aspects, perhaps?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  06:55:58  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't Tyaa from Nehwon? I don't think I'd connect Newhon stuff to other D&D stuff, even though there was a long line of AD&D products for the setting; I don't know that WotC still has the license for it. I'm not familiar with Fileet.

I don't think I'd have Aerdrie as coming from an avian pantheon; elven identity is too strong for that IMO. There's some worshiper crossover, but that's just due to a long history of friendship; Aerdie is no more avian (and Syranita is no more elvish) than Geb is dwarven or gnomish.

Note that other than Syranita and Krocaa, I don't really see there being an avian pantheon. They're just a loose grouping of somewhat similar deities whose chosen races sometimes worship other deities in the group. Syranita, Remnis, Quorlinn, and Aerdrie are all patrons of specific races, and Quorlinn was the creation of another deity (and there aren't any avian deities to do the creation).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6918 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  12:47:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Note that other than Syranita and Krocaa, I don't really see there being an avian pantheon. They're just a loose grouping of somewhat similar deities whose chosen races sometimes worship other deities in the group. Syranita, Remnis, Quorlinn, and Aerdrie are all patrons of specific races, and Quorlinn was the creation of another deity (and there aren't any avian deities to do the creation).

Jeff



Amongst the gods I've looked up, there's a few others that COULD fit (not saying you'd have to shoehorn them in). The Phoenix is one that at least in our world is cross cultural and would seem to fit (having many of the same portfolios as Lathander). Pazuzu as an evil alternative (who is also a demon cult, so admittedly not the same thing). There's a few others, but as you say, they don't necessarily fit a "avian pantheon" so much as they are gods with bird-like aspects.... other than one that I periodically seem to find stuff about but I can't tell if he's a real myth of our world or one that's been fostered by the internet (Heresa Heri, the Vulture King of South American mythology).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  16:47:45  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pazuzu works fine as a cultic interloper (as Asmodeus or Ogremoch does in other cultures), but I don't see him as part of the pantheon, in part because he is already part of the Mesopotamian pantheon (and that's also why I wouldn't add in other real-world human deities for the most part). I could see, say, Eris functioning as the deity of harpies, but I still wouldn't add her to an overall avian pantheon.

Phoenixes were mythic creatures, not divine, and they're Greco-Roman (other "phoenixes" are really just superficially similar). They already exist as monsters in D&D anyway.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1583 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  17:05:35  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I don't think I'd have Aerdrie as coming from an avian pantheon; elven identity is too strong for that IMO. There's some worshiper crossover, but that's just due to a long history of friendship; Aerdie is no more avian (and Syranita is no more elvish) than Geb is dwarven or gnomish.

Note that other than Syranita and Krocaa, I don't really see there being an avian pantheon. They're just a loose grouping of somewhat similar deities whose chosen races sometimes worship other deities in the group. Syranita, Remnis, Quorlinn, and Aerdrie are all patrons of specific races

True, but:
1. For some reason avatars of Syranita summons elementals, while Aerdrie Faenya summons avians. That's curious.
2. Aerdrie is the closest with Syranita and vice versa, than either of them with any other power. Which may mean something more.
Especially given the secretive past and uncertain origins of the Avariel. I mean, what if they were created ("uplifted") by the Aearee? This interpretation fits well both the situation at the time when this could happen and all those Avariel quirks.
Then she could have ascended as "Winged Mother" due to being either the one who created them or among the first created.
Sure, the other elves venerate her, but so do some birds. And the elves sometimes venerate Eilistraee. Or human deities. They had problems with mixing icky stuff into precious perfect elven blood and/or those other guys acting "un-elvish" only after they fell from the throne and started hand-wringing about it. And either way the Avariel stay away from the ground elves.
The Seldarine also were concerned about all that terrible heresy later, and even then reacted slowly, but would they complain about having a good ally when their followers were still villainously devoured? Then she would be just "grandfathered" in.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Amongst the gods I've looked up, there's a few others that COULD fit (not saying you'd have to shoehorn them in). [...] a few others, but as you say, they don't necessarily fit a "avian pantheon" so much as they are gods with bird-like aspects....

Yes, but when they come with their own bird-like species, the whole "Creator Race" thing sitting in the background makes it very ambiguous. For one more example, couatls.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  19:30:30  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

True, but:
1. For some reason avatars of Syranita summons elementals, while Aerdrie Faenya summons avians. That's curious.


There's really no deep inference here. Aerdrie, as a non-avian entity, has avians as part of her area of control. This doesn't say anything about her other than a personal affinity of hers, much as some people prefer dogs or cats for companions/pets.

Syranita IS an avian, but not a god OF avians (just aarakocra). She doesn't have an affinity to all avians any more than Zeus has an affinity to all mammals. If aarakocra were an old urbanized race, then Syranita might be a deity of livestock in addition to everything else, but that wouldn't make her a mammalian god just because she'd have sheep, cows, and pigs as part of her area of control. To a certain extent, the complete lack of these sorts of deities among the reptilian, piscine, amphibian, and reptilian deities is part of the assumption that none of these races are as civilized as humanity. Even elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings aren't given the same deific depth as humanity.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

2. Aerdrie is the closest with Syranita and vice versa, than either of them with any other power. Which may mean something more.
Especially given the secretive past and uncertain origins of the Avariel. I mean, what if they were created ("uplifted") by the Aearee? This interpretation fits well both the situation at the time when this could happen and all those Avariel quirks.
Then she could have ascended as "Winged Mother" due to being either the one who created them or among the first created.
Sure, the other elves venerate her, but so do some birds. And the elves sometimes venerate Eilistraee. Or human deities. They had problems with mixing icky stuff into precious perfect elven blood and/or those other guys acting "un-elvish" only after they fell from the throne and started hand-wringing about it. And either way the Avariel stay away from the ground elves.
The Seldarine also were concerned about all that terrible heresy later, and even then reacted slowly, but would they complain about having a good ally when their followers were still villainously devoured? Then she would be just "grandfathered" in.


"Birds of a feather flock together."

They're kindred spirits, with similar outlooks and concerns. I've certainly known people who have *substantially* better relationships with a friend than they do with family and spouses.

Whatever happened with the Avian Creator Race on Toril, Aerdrie was around first (she couldn't have been part of Angharradh if she arose later).

Besides, there's too great of a tendency to credit the creation of a substantial and disparate part of the D&D canon to the Forgotten Realms. The Realms, while more detailed than most other worlds, should just be one of many worlds, all of which contributed roughly the same amount to the multiverse, IMO. I.e. the Realms isn't the most detailed because it is the most important, it is the most detailed because of a curious quirk of information transmission (i.e. no other worlds had an Elminster who met an Ed Greenwood).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1583 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  23:33:55  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon


"Birds of a feather flock together."
They're kindred spirits, with similar outlooks and concerns.

Well, yeah, that's the point. But a supposedly Elven deity gets along with someone else more than with the Seldarine.
Unprecedented!
This would make more sense if she moved from outside in:
- A lot of the Elves think Avariel are awesome, and now some of them venerate you, so... we count you as one of the Seldarine, m'kay?
- Fine with me, I'll drop by to chat now and then.
quote:
Whatever happened with the Avian Creator Race on Toril, Aerdrie was around first (she couldn't have been part of Angharradh if she arose later).

This relies on mythology of Toril elves to be accurate and give date to events.
Also, this doesn't necessarily mean they were developed for the war with dragons and thus after it started. This could have been the other way around, the precedent gave Fey ideas.
It's enough for a bunch of Elves or Aearee to go planewalking/word-jumping, and run into the other group. "Hi, you seem to admire those eagles, would you like your descendants to fly like eagles?.. Can be done."
quote:
Besides, there's too great of a tendency to credit the creation of a substantial and disparate part of the D&D canon to the Forgotten Realms. The Realms, while more detailed than most other worlds, should just be one of many worlds,

Yes, but when creatures are already in, the only question left is whether they moved "from", or "to". And the Avariel are one of more mysterious cases either way. Also, they fit this bill better than most.
quote:
all of which contributed roughly the same amount to the multiverse, IMO.
This would be weird, IMO. Between different ages and different access to planewalking/spelljamming - between natural quirks (starfly plant, lots of naturally occurring vortices/portals or wrapped in a nasty plane like Athas), developed traditions, limitations due to hostile creatures (someone got stuck with a whole planet of illithids for neighbours, what you can do) or accidents (Netherese spelljammers), it looks more like a big lottery.
They need
- Something to "contribute", that would be competitive enough to stick. Australian fauna is ostensibly cool, yet it keeps being overrun by less than awesome critters again and again.
- Chance for it to actually spread, at the right time and place.
- Become known for this. Ah... Oops. A lot of creatures are known to be transplanted, yet still have return address never known, lost, deliberately erased or obviously unreliable. Egarus came from some Prime world, what's its name? Loxoth? Manscorpions? Aranea supposedly were created in at least two different places... sure that Calishite wizard, how him, not known for doing anything else like this sounds very trustworthy (I'd buy an used camel from him right away! )... Dragons and that Maztican giant centipede fell from the sky in the eggs, but what were their ports of departure, and how did they travel?..
quote:
I.e. the Realms isn't the most detailed because it is the most important, it is the most detailed because of a curious quirk of information transmission (i.e. no other worlds had an Elminster who met an Ed Greenwood).
That's fine. More critters are known to be from or at least can be traced to Toril than some other specific place, mostly because there's more known about Toril than almost any place.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15652 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  02:12:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Isn't Tyaa from Nehwon? I don't think I'd connect Newhon stuff to other D&D stuff, even though there was a long line of AD&D products for the setting; I don't know that WotC still has the license for it. I'm not familiar with Fileet.
Fileet was only a few pages away from Tyaa in the original (first print run) 1eDD, in the Melnibonean mythos. VERY similar goddesses. Going with the flow of the conversation, I would possibly say Fileet was a more 'primal' aspect of the bird goddess, like Syranita, and Tyaa was more of an anthropomorphic aspect, like Aerdrie Faenya.

Unlike you, I am not worried at all about stepping all over IPs LOL. I - being a private person NEVER associated with any company - I have a little more freedom in that regard. I often sneak little 'Easter Eggs' from other settings onto my maps (and one even accidentally made it onto a canon map released in 4e... I got a nice little lecture over that one at Gencon LMAO) So, that's one of the reasons I no longer emulate the '3e style' of maps.

The Misbegotten Realms map I was working on for awhile had no less than 30 settings all mashed-up. It was a thing of beauty. Too bad I got bored before I finished it.

Anyhow, my own, personal cosmological musings have more to do with my never-ending quest to create a unified 'mono-myth' for D&D (and all settings, for that matter - one set of 'creation lore' that works for every single setting). That requires me to blend-together a lot of gods and pantheons, unlike what you do, which is treat each one as a separate entity. Different approaches to the same subject, is all.

I just now looked over your full list - its going to save me quite a bit of research. You know that they turned Auril into the Queen of Air & Darkness, right? Her name was Aurilandur back then. However, a few of us have been tinkering with all of that and we think that the "Queen of Air & Darkness" may have just been a title, and that Aurilandur was simple the Frost Sprite Princess (Brian James' 4e canon says she was the Frost Sprite Queen, but we think it would work better if she never got to be queen, because of the whole Black Diamond-corruption thing). Which means someone else may have been the QoA&D, and that may have been Cegliune. Aurilandur gets corrupted (and loses part of her memories), and then she takes on the mantle of the QoA&D from Cegliune (possibly her aunt), and Cegliune herself becomes the hag Queen instead (possibly stealing that crown from Cailleach). Its a big mess, and the raven Queen and possibly even Kiaransalee were involved, hence us creating a McGuffin called "The Regalia of Winter" (that some of Aurilandur's memories got imprinted on when she lost them). The Ring of Winter is part of the Regalia, as is Ulutiu's Ice Necklace. The Crown of Horns is another possibly candidate as regalia.

Convoluted, but fun.

Also, you seem to have forgotten the fey creator deity, Rhiannon, from Dragon #155, She's in a separate article from the other Seldarine in that issue (and now that D&D has merged the fey and elves together, the pantheons really should be merged as well). In that regard, I think Rhiannon might make a nice aspect of Angharradh (considering her position as 'creator of the fey').

Thanks again for doing this - its very helpful to a lot of us.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 02:16:42
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  07:37:29  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon


"Birds of a feather flock together."
They're kindred spirits, with similar outlooks and concerns.

Well, yeah, that's the point. But a supposedly Elven deity gets along with someone else more than with the Seldarine.
Unprecedented!
This would make more sense if she moved from outside in:
- A lot of the Elves think Avariel are awesome, and now some of them venerate you, so... we count you as one of the Seldarine, m'kay?
- Fine with me, I'll drop by to chat now and then.


Is it? Deep Sashelas has a dolphin as a consort and heads a close alliance of disparate deities (including Syranita herself). Erevan has a dragon as a boon companion. Fenmarel can barely even tolerate the other elven deities.

On top of that in Monster Mythology, Deep Sashelas and Rillifane were considered isolated enough from the core elven deities and more of an affinity with others to be placed elsewhere in the book (Sashelas with the aquatic deities and Rillifane with the Sylvan deities, although he was then inadvertently left out).

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Besides, there's too great of a tendency to credit the creation of a substantial and disparate part of the D&D canon to the Forgotten Realms. The Realms, while more detailed than most other worlds, should just be one of many worlds,

Yes, but when creatures are already in, the only question left is whether they moved "from", or "to". And the Avariel are one of more mysterious cases either way. Also, they fit this bill better than most.


Avariel weren't created for the Forgotten Realms. They were originally a generic non-canon demihuman race in Dragon #50, and canonized as a generic elven subrace in the Complete Book of Elves. The name of the race from Dragon #50 has never been used in the Forgotten Realms to my knowledge, but is used in Planescape and Mystara. Those in Planescape consider the name "avariel" to be an improper Clueless term. Saying that all winged elves everywher ein the multiverse originated from Toril gets exactly at what I complained about: Assuming generic D&D creatures arose on Toril because it is a favored setting.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

all of which contributed roughly the same amount to the multiverse, IMO.
This would be weird, IMO. Between different ages and different access to planewalking/spelljamming - between natural quirks (starfly plant, lots of naturally occurring vortices/portals or wrapped in a nasty plane like Athas), developed traditions, limitations due to hostile creatures (someone got stuck with a whole planet of illithids for neighbours, what you can do) or accidents (Netherese spelljammers), it looks more like a big lottery.



I didn't intend to mean we should then absolutely quantify it all, but what is contributed can also be relatively local. Oerth contributed a considerable amount of magic to the Realms, but those spells have not spread to Krynn or Athas. The small Loxoth population on Toril could be just the tiniest tendril of what their homeworld contributed, and we just haven't seen everything else. But when certain things are included in the core books and generic supplements (and I', looking at this from 2e's core/generic books, not other editions which have different assortments), the assumption should be that the majority of those don't have a specific, single origin within the canon (multiple origins work, as with the demihuman races on Krynn and the other worlds).

Ultimately, Toril should be treated as having a position equal to the others, and one among many, rather than a position of pre-eminence.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

That's fine. More critters are known to be from or at least can be traced to Toril than some other specific place, mostly because there's more known about Toril than almost any place.



Right, but in the case of avariel, it is a co-opted element, rather than something that was created *for* the Forgotten Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Fileet was only a few pages away from Tyaa in the original (first print run) 1eDD, in the Melnibonean mythos. VERY similar goddesses. Going with the flow of the conversation, I would possibly say Fileet was a more 'primal' aspect of the bird goddess, like Syranita, and Tyaa was more of an anthropomorphic aspect, like Aerdrie Faenya.


Ahh, I thought it might have been a deity I'd missed.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Unlike you, I am not worried at all about stepping all over IPs LOL. I - being a private person NEVER associated with any company - I have a little more freedom in that regard. I often sneak little 'Easter Eggs' from other settings onto my maps (and one even accidentally made it onto a canon map released in 4e... I got a nice little lecture over that one at Gencon LMAO) So, that's one of the reasons I no longer emulate the '3e style' of maps.


I've dropped in easter eggs (I'm positive no one has noticed the Ultima easter egg); I don't have a problem with that. The difference is that I'm not making these for a home campaign (although I do use them), so I don't want to add in things that a lot of people can't/won't use, or that might make the project non-viable. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just now looked over your full list - its going to save me quite a bit of research. You know that they turned Auril into the Queen of Air & Darkness, right?


Know it, and disregard it. Extant 2e details of the two are nothing alike, in personality or powers and attributes. IMO, syncretising deities should have a very high bar in D&D.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, you seem to have forgotten the fey creator deity, Rhiannon, from Dragon #155, She's in a separate article from the other Seldarine in that issue (and now that D&D has merged the fey and elves together, the pantheons really should be merged as well). In that regard, I think Rhiannon might make a nice aspect of Angharradh (considering her position as 'creator of the fey').


I haven't forgotten; I just haven't decided how to deal with her. There already is a more detailed Faerie Queen, Titania, who has much greater characterization (and the advantage of a Shakespeare play to draw upon), whereas Rhiannon falls into the classic D&D category of reusing an extant deity (or legendary/mythic) names without any attention paid to the source. She's nothing like the Rhiannon of the Mabinogi, nor is there an attempt to make her like that. She is just a generic faerie queen with a reused name.

I wouldn't merge the Seldarine and the Seelie Court. D&D elves are based off of Tolkien and Norse mythology, rather than the Anglo-Germanic fairy tale elves. Make them long associates, or maybe even distant relations, but not merged into one.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  08:32:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did a write-up trying to fix all the oddness revolving around the QoA&D and Auril (addressing precisely the points you make), and also brought Kiaransalee into the mix, just because there are way too many common elements there (fey-related goddess of death with memory loss issues). Its over in the 'Bane' thread if your interested (threads do seem to meander all over the place around here when we start discussing gods).

Rhiannon is more of a primal, 'creator deity' ('primal Spirit' in 4e lingo), whereas Titania was their queen. Thus, Titania was their second 'Queen' (Danu was the first - I had to sync-up the Irish folklore as well), and when Danu sacrificed herself to create Faerie (within the Feywild), her daughter Titania took the crown, and thus became the first queen of the Fey in Faerie (so 2nd queen overall, or perhaps just the first to be officially called that). Now in 4e/5e we have Tiandra, and since they didn't bother explaining that, I say that Titania finally 'moved on' and became the Harvest (Autumn) Queen, and her daughter Tiandra took her spot in the court of Stars.

And if you think that's convoluted, I have it where Baba Yaga was supposed to be the next Queen of Air & Darkness, after her mother Cegliune moved on to be the Hag Queen, but Aurilandur usurped her spot, and Baba Yaga left the Feywild and swore she would not return until she had the power to destroy Auril. Just 'cause folks live forever don't mean they get to keep their jobs forever - just look at the fiends. And Danu (my homebrew of her) and Cegliune were sisters (Fey nobility tend to be born as twins), thus the connection to Titania - Cegliune becomes Titania's aunt in all of this (Cegliune may have even felt she was supposed to take Danu's place as the head of the Fey, and that could be why she left - or was booted - from Faerie, when her young niece got the crown instead).

Anyhow, 4e/5e has this quasi-tier of 'Gods' above our regular, sphere-specific Gods (what I've always called 'archtypes', but 4e named them 'Estelar'), and those are the 'Elder Gods' - the ones that existed in the beginning. long before mortals were even created. Thus, if we place Rhiannon way back there (where she should be, if she created the small fey), than Titania is actually just an archfey - an actual Fey that rose in power to become a quasi-deity (archfey, in 3e lingo). Just like how in The Complete Book of Dwarves, they say there is an 'all-father' dwarven High God above Moradin who is never named - the creator of the dwarven pantheon. So Rhiannon is like that, IMO. No-one created her - she just 'is'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 02:03:52
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LordofBones
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656 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  15:01:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Baba Yaga has ever actually been a faerie. It's left ambiguous in 3.5e (but Iggwilv's statted as a human conjurer 26/archmage 4), and in Pathfinder she's a human witch with the advanced template.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  01:52:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AuldDragon, since we're here talking about Auril, I'd like to pick your brain a bit (heh). Auril shares her realm with Loki, so what's her relationship with the Norse pantheon. Many Faerunian deities share their realms with older deities (Lathander and Ushas, Velsharoon and Mellifleur, Waukeen with the other powers of the Marketplace Eternal), but Auril and Loki have little in common, so it just sticks out in my mind.
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AuldDragon
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USA
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  02:27:31  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

AuldDragon, since we're here talking about Auril, I'd like to pick your brain a bit (heh). Auril shares her realm with Loki, so what's her relationship with the Norse pantheon. Many Faerunian deities share their realms with older deities (Lathander and Ushas, Velsharoon and Mellifleur, Waukeen with the other powers of the Marketplace Eternal), but Auril and Loki have little in common, so it just sticks out in my mind.



On the meta side, I think they put her in Loki's realm because it was called "Winter's Hall" rather than having to create a new realm for her. Planescape material makes no mention of Auril living there, I will point out.

Lore-wise, since Loki doesn't reside there all the time (only when he is grumpy and tired of the other Aesir, basically), I would say Auril created the realm originally, and Loki set up a "vacation home" at some point after a dispute with the Aesir. He probably discovered it because it had frost giants, and he struck a deal with Auril allowing him to construct a hall, and they're probably occasional lovers. Auril probably didn't have an actual dwelling at the time, and now uses his hall when she desires.

That's just what I came up with right now, I'd flesh it out more if I were working on Loki's entry (which won't be for quite a while).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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LordofBones
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656 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  06:19:19  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, they're sort of like the evil versions of Wee Jas and Norebo, only on the elemental axis instead of the law-chaos axis? Auril is a literal Ice Queen and pretty humorless when she's not raging, while Loki's a deity of fire, a prankster and pretty cheerful.
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