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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  06:49:49  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Loki's not a deity of fire, and his stays at Winter's Hall are when he isn't cheerful (he's in Asgard at those times).

I imagine when they're together romantically, storms in the realm are pretty fierce, and I don't think it is love at all between the two.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  02:00:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a thought - why can't Rhiannon be a fey-aspect of Hanali Selanil? Then everything works out (since the latest cosmology lore has it where Corellon and the Seldarine created the Fey). Thus, as Hanali, Rhiannon DID indeed create the fey. It may just be the simplest solution (Occam's Razor and all that).

I am only connecting Baba Yaga to the fey because I want her connected to Cegliune (she was to be Cegliune's replacement eventually, but when Aurilandur touched the Back Diamond and got corrupted, everything was thrown out-of-wack and Auril usurped the Queen of Air & Darkness crown from Cegliune (who moved on to become The Hag Queen). Baba Yaga's spot got 'usurped', and that's why she's always in such a foul mood (that, and her house has chicken-legs). don't think Baba Yaga should be full-on fey, nor do i think that would entirely appropriate for Cegliune, either, since I associate Hags with giants. There is a really good story in there somewhere, and someday I hope to find (and write) it.

And just to come full-circle to the current topic, Loki is also at least part-giant. I think there is entire sub-gorup of 'halves' from back when the before the fey and giants came to blows in the Feywild. Aside from all the delicious Irish folklore, we also have the Norse, and they Vanir were not only 'elven gods' (former Seldarine?), but three of them were even 'hostages' within the Aesir pantheon (the Vanir were considered a spearte pantheon/group). So we have a pantheon of giant-related deities (Norse) having a war with fey-related Deities (the Vanir), which syncs-up perfectly with the Irish folklore of the Tuatha Dé Danann and the giants (Firbolgs and Fomorians), AND our D&D lore which has Fomorians and other 'nastybads' (like cyclops) at war with the Eladrin/fey.

Corellon discovers the Feywild, and then creates the Eladrin from the existing fey (spirits) of the feywild, but somewhere in between that the giants also moved into the Feywild, and it seems they got along with the fey... at first. Maybe it was because of the Eladrin (or later elves... still waiting to see what MToF does with that) that conflict broke out? The smallish fey seem to be okay with giants (the two just ignore each other - too far apart in the ecosystem matter). I almost feel like Corellon's 'meddling' with the feywild caused all the problems (doesn't it always?) And then there's the fact that Corelln's 'brother' (which may only be figurative) looks like a cyclops. The two (possibly three, maybe even four) pantheons are all woven together, way back then.

And now I just found out our new Firbolgs look more fey (which is great) - they look just like Irda, or WoT's Ogier. In another thread I mentioned that maybe all the giantkin (Jotunkyn back then) are maybe half-fey? The Voadkyn definitely fit. Hobgoblins also became more feyish-looking, IMO (like bestial versions of elves).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 02:01:15
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  07:56:56  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not really much for deeply interwoven (or as I think of it, soap-operatic) connections between the pantheons. I rather see the pantheons operating much as the Aesir and the Vanir are handled in Norse mythology. As such, I usually try to strengthen the internal connections rather than external ones. To each their own, however.

Regarding Rhiannon, the simplest explanation is that she is an alias of Titania; both are considered the Queen of Faeries. I don't see anything that connects her to Hanali Celanil besides being a female sylvan being. As to Baba Yaga, I dropped some loose hints about her and Cegilune in my entry on Ysshara (it might take some research to suss them out though). That connection (which admittedly mostly exists in my head right now) is one of the ones I'm most proud of. :)

I personally would limit strong connections with hags and other creatures to just ogres (and maybe humans, due to witchcraft legends). Connections to faerie creatures are more along the lines of antagonist/predator-prey/magical interference type stuff. Mind you, I'm also not a fan of designating dozens of creatures "fey"; I feel that makes the term lose any real meaning. I generally stick to using the term just for faerie-type creatures (sprites, pixies, nixies, atomies, etc.), and not include dryads, nymphs, brownies, centaurs, korreds, or even elves. Essentially, I see the categorization being, from smallest group to largest group: Fey -> Seelie/Unseelie (which would include brownies, quicklings, etc, but not elves or centaurs) -> Sylvan (which would include centaurs and elves).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  19:32:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because Titania is a PERSON - an actual fey Eladrin, making her mortal-ish (and ascended mortal, or in 4e jargon, an archfey). She could not have 'created herself'.

I agree that there is no prior lore connecting Rhiannon to Hanali or anyone else for that matter, but two of the pieces of Angharradh turned out to have human aspects - Sune is Hanali and Selûne is Sehanine, so this is a furthering of the lore trend, rather then a back-peddling. I'm not looking for similarities, I am looking for solutions, and saying Rhiannon is Hanali (or even weirder, Aerdrie Faenya), at least places her in the proper 'position' in both the timeline and the lore. Its a simple, if inelegant, fix.

In the new (4e/5e) lore, the Fey and the elves are the same thing. They really can't be kept separate anymore. At the very least, the fey Pantheon (we really need a name for that - 'Fæyvanû' or some-such) should be a 'minor branch' off the Seldarine tree. Also, Titania isn't around anymore either - 4e replaced her with Tiandra (for no reason what-so-ever). I only just watched the video on the Eldarin last night (what they did to them in MToF), and although I think that spin (on their backstory) makes no sense at all, it is what it is. I am already hoping that 6e retcons lore in a book that isn't even out yet. LOL

As for the soap-opera-ish connections, that's pretty-much all RW mythology is: Divine Soap-Operas. There were no pantheons in the beginning - the Estelar (and primordials, etc) were just 'one big group', who later formed into 'cliques' which mortals started calling 'pantheons'. The very idea of pantheons is a mortal conception - those Elder Gods don't really have to abide by any of that. To say this (elder) being and that (elder) being were part of this or that pantheon is actually anachronistic. To me, its like saying Ghengis Khan was a Nazi.

And NONE of this is my idea, although I have had theories along these lines over the years (in fact, Corellon and Gruumsh being 'brothers' WAS my idea - I was even asked to use it!) I used to keep everything separate - in my own previous cosmological musings, I had the fey coming first, and then them creating the Elven gods (I had it where Titania was Corellon's mom, and I really, really liked that). Basically, the Seldarine were the 'royal family' of the fey. 4e stomped all over that, and its taken me years (the entirety of the 4e era) to 'get over it' and re-write my own homebrew to match the mess 4e made. One of our newer scribes here - Zeromaru-X - wrote a pdf called History of the Nentir Vale, and although its 4e and supposedly about the Nerath setting, the fact is at least half of it is D&D proto-history, and its ALL canon (he even included all the inconsistencies). Its all footnoted with references, and he did an amazing job (and he is constantly updating it). Its at least as good a 'fan-work' as Brian James' original Grand history of the Realms. I've been using that as my 'bible' in rewriting my own homebrew god-lore, to keep it consistent with the 4e/5e model. And therein, there is no mention of 'Seldarine' (in the Time Before Time), or any other pantheons- the (elder) gods are all mixing freely together, which makes me think the pantheons were something that must have shook-out in the aftermath of the Godswar, which was long after (3000 years?) the Dawn War. This makes perfect sense, because when you really think about it, D&D has only ONE pantheon - the D&D pantheon, because all the deities within it interact. 'Pantheonic Realms' are really nothing more than social clubs for the gods - mortals just read too much into them.

Mostly IMO, of course.


Oh, and Hags - I agree with the Ogre thing, but unfortunately, D&D (and especially FR) has placed Ogres with the giants. I see they've made the Firbolgs into something very close to Krynn's Irda, which I find VERY interesting; I can definitely work with that (I love firbolgs, and I've been wanting to make sense of the all the inconsistent ogre-lore for years). I think there is a REALLY good story in there. In my purely Homebrew world (that I have been tinkering with for 30+ years), I have all races, folklore, and gods interconnected (there are very few 'real' gods, and even then, not so much). So a lot of my hag-stuff stems from my own world, and I realize a LOT of it doesn't shoe-horn well with established D&D canon, but I do try to work in bits of it when I can get it to fit. My apologies for my vanity.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 20:49:43
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7432 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  22:44:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I'm not really much for deeply interwoven (or as I think of it, soap-operatic) connections between the pantheons. I rather see the pantheons operating much as the Aesir and the Vanir are handled in Norse mythology. As such, I usually try to strengthen the internal connections rather than external ones. To each their own, however.

Regarding Rhiannon, the simplest explanation is that she is an alias of Titania; both are considered the Queen of Faeries. I don't see anything that connects her to Hanali Celanil besides being a female sylvan being. As to Baba Yaga, I dropped some loose hints about her and Cegilune in my entry on Ysshara (it might take some research to suss them out though). That connection (which admittedly mostly exists in my head right now) is one of the ones I'm most proud of. :)

I personally would limit strong connections with hags and other creatures to just ogres (and maybe humans, due to witchcraft legends). Connections to faerie creatures are more along the lines of antagonist/predator-prey/magical interference type stuff. Mind you, I'm also not a fan of designating dozens of creatures "fey"; I feel that makes the term lose any real meaning. I generally stick to using the term just for faerie-type creatures (sprites, pixies, nixies, atomies, etc.), and not include dryads, nymphs, brownies, centaurs, korreds, or even elves. Essentially, I see the categorization being, from smallest group to largest group: Fey -> Seelie/Unseelie (which would include brownies, quicklings, etc, but not elves or centaurs) -> Sylvan (which would include centaurs and elves).

Jeff



I like that terminology for the fey. There should be some kind of human sized "fey", those being these beings of extreme magic like the Leshay... but they should not be equated with elves. Elves should be to them almost as barbarians are to civilized humans (an entirely different moral code, etc...).

On hags, not sure what you're getting at there, but I would personally have hags involved with many of the "ugly" races of giantkind. For instance, I can see hags producing children for Fomorians, ettins, cyclops, ogres, trolls, hill giants, ogre magic. However, I can also see different hags producing children with other beings (for instance, Bheur hags producing children with frost giants and ice trolls OR sea hags producing children with Merrow, etc...). In these instances, I'd have it that, like elves, hags "breed true"... so if its a male child its like the father, if its female its like the mother. Hagspawn would be the unusual situation of a hag and a human, and specifically because humans seem to have this strange ability to mate with most anything. Then there's how they reproduce through eating children as put forth in 5e.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

826 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  01:08:23  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's kind of odd to bring up your headcanon, 4e and 5e in a thread primarily concerned about 2e, where the pantheons are distinct and separate.

Even the D&D pantheon is just the Oeridian pantheon; you'll notice that 3e's Manual of the Planes was too terrified of actually bringing in real world religion and previous lore, which is why Mellifleur is Melif and no mention is given about his divinity, the Trickster is never mentioned to be Loki, and the Teardrop Palace's ruler, the Chinese god Sung Chiang, is never mentioned.

Even D&D takes real world inspiration for the pantheons; the RW pantheons are so powerful and potent that they've influenced the naming of several planes; the trinity of Arawn, Hades and Hel are the most respected death gods; the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons hate each other; the Finns are implied to be dying out; etc.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  02:05:34  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Because Titania is a PERSON - an actual fey Eladrin, making her mortal-ish (and ascended mortal, or in 4e jargon, an archfey). She could not have 'created herself'.


But that "created herself" element doesn't have to be *accurate.* One of my pet peeves about RPGs in general is that *everything is true.* This is one reason why I often include mutually exclusive elements, so everything can't be true. People and deities lie or are wrong, and the religions can have dogma disassociated from real events.

Anyway, that's why I based this project on 2nd Edition canon, so I don't have to worry about or deal with all the stuff I specifically didn't like about lore changes in later editions, and am generally dealing with things that were newly created at the time. It's much less complicated, which is the way I like it. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oh, and Hags - I agree with the Ogre thing, but unfortunately, D&D (and especially FR) has placed Ogres with the giants.


But only loosely, and it really doesn't have to be a significant element of their being. They should be treated as their own thing rather than just large goblinoids or small giants.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On hags, not sure what you're getting at there, but I would personally have hags involved with many of the "ugly" races of giantkind. For instance, I can see hags producing children for Fomorians, ettins, cyclops, ogres, trolls, hill giants, ogre magic. However, I can also see different hags producing children with other beings (for instance, Bheur hags producing children with frost giants and ice trolls OR sea hags producing children with Merrow, etc...). In these instances, I'd have it that, like elves, hags "breed true"... so if its a male child its like the father, if its female its like the mother. Hagspawn would be the unusual situation of a hag and a human, and specifically because humans seem to have this strange ability to mate with most anything. Then there's how they reproduce through eating children as put forth in 5e.


I didn't mean to imply that they only consorted with ogres, and I agree they would breed true with almost any other race. However, D&D hags are drawn from folklore about witches and non-English villains that often get translated as "ogress," so I think hags are more closely related to ogres than anything else. I see their relation to the sylvan creatures as being one of predator and prey, and perhaps a case of corruption of sylvan magic. When I get to Cegilune, I'll get these ideas more fleshed out.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  04:25:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hence my hombrew lore (as in, my OWN setting) that hags can change size and shape (Very much like Fey). I've pushed my own lore back into 'The Time Before Time', and say that all giants are just one group (Jotuns), before allt hese subgroups appeared among them. This makes them very much like how giants were in Glorantha (Runequest), which is an old game and setting I really love. Primordial Giants are also all male, or another way of looking at is androgynous, since these would have pre-dated the concept of 'sex'. Thus, when they (and others) needed to 'mate' after the rules of the universe changed (the presence of death also caused the concept of 'birth', or procreation, to come about), the hags - a group of dryad-like Fey creatures - took up the call, and began changing their form to suit their 'partners' needs.

In the case of humans and hags, we get Hagspawn, which gave birth to the ogres. With each Race, they would create different progeny, some superior to the parent, others, not so much.

Now, with this new look and take on Firbolgs, I am thinking abut spinning the Færbholga as a sort of 'giant fey', some branches of which have 'devolved' over time. A group that went to Krynn could have been the 'High Ogres', some of which stayed true and are now the Irda, while others were corrupted and/or tainted and became ogres (and minotaurs). This also meshes nicely with WoT's Ogier. So I suppose if Firbolgs and Hags bred, they could crate ogres as well.

But, since you've already said your stuff here is all based on 2e (which was a great edition... except for THACO... I still have nightmares about THACO), I guess you don't even have to address the 'Time before Time' (The 'Age of Legend' from the Time Bandits movie LOL), which is what existed before the current iteration of the universe even existed (with all its separate worlds, Crystal Spheres, and Planes). Post-Dawn War, things became less mutable and more 'set in stone', so that is when all the pantheons would have become important ("the lines were drawn"), and all the sub-races actually became sub-races (before that, these were probably just 'templates').

Cheers

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

826 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  05:37:12  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I didn't mean to imply that they only consorted with ogres, and I agree they would breed true with almost any other race. However, D&D hags are drawn from folklore about witches and non-English villains that often get translated as "ogress," so I think hags are more closely related to ogres than anything else. I see their relation to the sylvan creatures as being one of predator and prey, and perhaps a case of corruption of sylvan magic. When I get to Cegilune, I'll get these ideas more fleshed out.

Jeff



When Cegilune first appeared in 3.5e (in Dragon, IIRC), her origin was retconned to being a benign moon deity that fell to her own vanity. Is this where you're going with Cegilune, or will she be something else (the very first Night Hag, an ascended hag, Baba Yaga's mother, etc)?
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  06:32:27  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hence my hombrew lore (as in, my OWN setting) that hags can change size and shape (Very much like Fey).


Sorry, I tend to assume anything posted in this thread is a suggestion for the project, rather than general/homebrew musing, which is why I tend to respond with thoughts based on my project's parameters. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But, since you've already said your stuff here is all based on 2e (which was a great edition... except for THACO... I still have nightmares about THACO), I guess you don't even have to address the 'Time before Time' (The 'Age of Legend' from the Time Bandits movie LOL), which is what existed before the current iteration of the universe even existed (with all its separate worlds, Crystal Spheres, and Planes). Post-Dawn War, things became less mutable and more 'set in stone', so that is when all the pantheons would have become important ("the lines were drawn"), and all the sub-races actually became sub-races (before that, these were probably just 'templates').


As far as I'm concerned, everything before recorded game history is unknown and unknowable, and portrayed much as myth is in the real world, and varies from race to race (with most of the major ones claiming their deities created everything first). I really see no reason to document such things when they only serve as backdrop for the game. We're talking on the scale of millions of years (which is where the oldest elements of Spelljammer history is set) before we get to all of that, which is well outside the scope of any individual campaign.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

When Cegilune first appeared in 3.5e (in Dragon, IIRC), her origin was retconned to being a benign moon deity that fell to her own vanity. Is this where you're going with Cegilune, or will she be something else (the very first Night Hag, an ascended hag, Baba Yaga's mother, etc)?


I haven't decided for sure yet, as I will need to do more research to form up my ideas, and I'm not at that point yet (still working on the aerial/aquatic/scaled deities), but it definitely won't be that. I do see a connection between her and Baba Yaga and ogres, and I will be drawing upon Slavic and Finnish folklore, as well as folklore about witches. I will preserve the possibility of a connection to Titania, but given the existence of the Queen of Air and Darkness, I don't think it should be interpreted as "genetic." Exactly what the relationship is I will explore when I get to her.

The moon is powerful and magical, and that's where her lunar connection comes in. I don't think she is a "lunar deity" in the same way that Selune is, representing the moon itself. Rather, her connection is more akin to the ancient idea of lunacy, where the moon has power over people, and that's what she draws upon. I haven't fleshed it all out yet.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

Edited by - AuldDragon on 01 Mar 2018 06:34:36
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7432 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  11:03:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On hags, not sure what you're getting at there, but I would personally have hags involved with many of the "ugly" races of giantkind. For instance, I can see hags producing children for Fomorians, ettins, cyclops, ogres, trolls, hill giants, ogre magic. However, I can also see different hags producing children with other beings (for instance, Bheur hags producing children with frost giants and ice trolls OR sea hags producing children with Merrow, etc...). In these instances, I'd have it that, like elves, hags "breed true"... so if its a male child its like the father, if its female its like the mother. Hagspawn would be the unusual situation of a hag and a human, and specifically because humans seem to have this strange ability to mate with most anything. Then there's how they reproduce through eating children as put forth in 5e.


I didn't mean to imply that they only consorted with ogres, and I agree they would breed true with almost any other race. However, D&D hags are drawn from folklore about witches and non-English villains that often get translated as "ogress," so I think hags are more closely related to ogres than anything else. I see their relation to the sylvan creatures as being one of predator and prey, and perhaps a case of corruption of sylvan magic. When I get to Cegilune, I'll get these ideas more fleshed out.

Jeff



Yeah, I could definitely agree on that as well. For FR, I was specifically making Dun-Tharos/Narathmault/"The Dark Pit" one of the original places where hags were showing up on Toril (arriving through the same gates that the fey used). I called the place Bheuristahl for that time, and I had them getting involved with the giants, but LIVING with them were ogres and ogre magi.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

826 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  13:37:31  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought I'd point this out: Thrym's entry lists the gnomish pantheon as one of his foes. The collective name for them is 'Lords of the Golden Hills', much like how the elven deities are the Seldarine.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  04:33:43  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I thought I'd point this out: Thrym's entry lists the gnomish pantheon as one of his foes. The collective name for them is 'Lords of the Golden Hills', much like how the elven deities are the Seldarine.



Yeah; that's how it was listed in Demihuman Deities (probably because it is shorter) so I stuck with it.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  04:35:52  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eadro the Deliverer: http://bit.ly/Eadro

It took me a little while to decide what exactly Eadro represented, as he was described simply as the patron of the merfolk and the locathah. I eventually decided that he represented the strong bonds of community that merfolk and locathah are characterized as having, and this makes him a good addition to the loose “pantheon” of good and neutral aquatic deities.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
317 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2018 :  23:10:43  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shekinester the Three-Faced Queen: http://bit.ly/Shekinester

Shekinester, creator and queen of the nagas, is one of the most complex deities in the D&D multiverse. She has three distinct aspects, each representing a different alignment, with different portfolios of interest, but all elements of her overriding portfolio of Wisdom.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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LordofBones
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Posted - 02 Apr 2018 :  08:27:01  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two things stand out in Shekinester's entry.

First, Ravana has only one 'n'.

Second, Ravana - at least, the Ravana of actual myth - was a Brahmin, and in some accounts he was given the nectar of immortality as a boon by Brahma, in addition to being a great devotee of Shiva. Of the Big Three of the Vedic pantheon, only Vishnu has known feuds with the rakhshasa and their lords.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Apr 2018 :  13:44:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon



I haven't decided for sure yet, as I will need to do more research to form up my ideas, and I'm not at that point yet (still working on the aerial/aquatic/scaled deities), but it definitely won't be that. I do see a connection between her and Baba Yaga and ogres, and I will be drawing upon Slavic and Finnish folklore, as well as folklore about witches. I will preserve the possibility of a connection to Titania, but given the existence of the Queen of Air and Darkness, I don't think it should be interpreted as "genetic." Exactly what the relationship is I will explore when I get to her.

The moon is powerful and magical, and that's where her lunar connection comes in. I don't think she is a "lunar deity" in the same way that Selune is, representing the moon itself. Rather, her connection is more akin to the ancient idea of lunacy, where the moon has power over people, and that's what she draws upon. I haven't fleshed it all out yet.

Jeff



I'm intrigued to see what/how you interpret that lunar connection as well. I've wondered about how to properly do it justice as well. In FR, Selune is portrayed so much as a goddess of good and the moon as "light", unlike other moon deities such as those in Krynn who are about magic. However, Selune is also known to be about magic related to women as well, as well as being tied to a woman's cycles. It has occurred to me that perhaps Cegilune has actually found some way to tap into this part of the moon, given that she is a "female-centric" deity, and given that monthly a woman actually has a small portion of herself "die"... its kind of grisly, but one could almost see it as a strange sort of sacrifice.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 02 Apr 2018 :  18:08:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the take on Shekinester. You now have me thinking about merging her with Angharradh (an elven aspect of the serpent proto-deity).

And why I say that is because my own (homebrew) write-up has Angharradh as very similar to the way you wrote-up Shekinester - as a 'reflection' of the three norns/fates deities of other mythology (I also have it where Araushnee was part of the original Angharradh - she was 'the weaver', but afterward Rhiannon - the winged goddess of fairies - took her place as Aerdrie Faenya).

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Two things stand out in Shekinester's entry.

First, Ravana has only one 'n'.

Second, Ravana - at least, the Ravana of actual myth - was a Brahmin, and in some accounts he was given the nectar of immortality as a boon by Brahma, in addition to being a great devotee of Shiva. Of the Big Three of the Vedic pantheon, only Vishnu has known feuds with the rakhshasa and their lords.
I've done a bunch of stuff with Ravana myself. He HAS been mentioned in canon D&D lore (probably a Dragon article or two), but I am not sure how the D&D version is spelled.

On other counts, he seems to have been somewhat different than his mythical counterpart - more like how Vishnu saw him, rather than how his greater body of actions made him out to be.

And I also also have him trapped beneath the Yehimals... but thats another story.

(P.S. - The Black Panther - Bauhei, Hei Te Pao, etc. - is his brother Vibishana... although now that I just read there was a 3rd brother - Kumbahaarna - I might just respin the two names above and have the Black panther actually be two different siblings of Ravana, which could be more fun from a D&D perspective).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2018 18:18:06
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Markustay
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Posted - 02 Apr 2018 :  18:40:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just reading further - 2nd paragraph, near the end - the word 'us' should be 'is'.

Because of her tripartite nature and aspects, she also seems a lot like Kali, who is also associated with destruction (through Shiva), but for all the 'right' reasons. And Kali also has an 'mother'-like aspect - The Black Earth Mother. Unfortunately, you've spun her an an enemy of Ravana, and if she is an aspect of kali (or rather, both are aspects of some greater, more primal proto-power), Kali is a protector of Shiva and Ravana is Shiva's highest priest. Nevermind - the interpretation of her depiction as standing upon Shiva differs among scholars, and some believe it shows more of her 'triumph' over him (and he is just a corpse). In that interpretation, the idea that Ravana hates Kali/Shekinestor works beautifully.

Which is really neither here nor there, because most of these ancient, primal aspects of Over/Ubergods have gone their own way so long they may as well just be separate beings at this point.

I also think Kali makes an excellent human (Vedic) aspect of Lolth - Black skin usually depicted as blue in art, small fangs, glowing eyes, eight limbs, and the ability to both 'mother' her people while also being a batcrap-crazy evil b*tch. And the Kali Thuggee cults are all about 'revenge against the oppressors', and that sounds a lot like how the Drow feel about the surface elves. But of course, this is just me trying to find paralleles everywhere.

EDIT:
I notice you don't mention Set at all - was that on purpose? I suppose Set's own all-pervasiveness within many other pantheons (he is now known to also be the new Zehir from 4e) could become problematic. He absorbed Sseth, I thought, so does that now make him Shekinester's enemy, or is that all forgotten now? Or has that 'not happened yet', since this is 2e?

If Shekinester and Set hate each other, it would make Baast her natural ally, but if they like each other, then Baast would have to be her enemy, which is also complex because she has merged with a few others (including a Fey power) and has a presence in multiple pantheons now. It would probably be better-off spinning Baast as an enemy, because Baast would also (naturally) have connections to the rakshasas.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2018 18:07:47
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  04:57:10  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Two things stand out in Shekinester's entry.

First, Ravana has only one 'n'.

Second, Ravana - at least, the Ravana of actual myth - was a Brahmin, and in some accounts he was given the nectar of immortality as a boon by Brahma, in addition to being a great devotee of Shiva. Of the Big Three of the Vedic pantheon, only Vishnu has known feuds with the rakhshasa and their lords.



For now, I'm using the canon spelling, based on Dragon #84 and Dungeon #73 (and I think he is mentioned in Planescape as well). I may change it later when I have a chance to do research, but for now, I'll stick with it.

What the naga say about Ravanna and the Vedic pantheon may not be the same thing the followers of the Vedic pantheon say about Ravanna. That said, the Rakshasa make good villains for the Vedic pantheon, much as giants do for the Norse pantheon. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  06:23:37  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Just reading further - 2nd paragraph, near the end - the word 'us' should be 'is'.


Thanks for catching that!

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Because of her tripartite nature and aspects, she also seems a lot like Kali, who is also associated with destruction (through Shiva), but for all the 'right' reasons. And Kali aso has an 'mother'-like aspect - The Black Earth Mother. Unfortunately, you've spun her an an enemy of Ravana, and if she is an aspect of kali (or rather, both are aspects of some greater, more primal proto-power), Kali is a protector of Shiva and Ravana is Shiva's highest priest. Nevermind - the interpretation of her depiction as standing upon Shiva differs among scholars, and some believe it shows more of her 'triumph' over him (and he is just a corpse). In that interpretation, the idea that Ravana hates Kali/Shekinestor works beautifully.


It's entirely possible to have one entity allied to a second and enemy to a third, when the second and third are allied. Shekinester isn't part of the Vedic pantheon, so her relationship with Ravanna need not be as complex as it might be for one of them. Also, within the context of the game, elements like Ravanna being high priest of Shiva may be in the past, rather than current. I haven't done the research yet for him.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I notice you don't mention Set at all - was that on purpose? I suppose Set's own all-pervasiveness within many other pantheons (he is now known to also be the new Zehir from 4e) could become problematic. He absorbed Sseth, I thought, so does that now make him Shekinester's enemy, or is that all forgotten now? Or has that 'not happened yet', since this is 2e?


Sseth and Set are separate during 2e, so that's what I'm sticking with (same reason I didn't address 3e's two new aspects for Shekinester, which would also have necessitating writing up the new naga race). I don't really see the pair interacting much at all; Set isn't the "big evil" of Egyptian mythology that he is made out to be (which isn't to say he isn't *an* evil of it); Apep/Apophis is, and Set is portrayed as aiding the others in that struggle. Overall, he is neither aligned directly with or directly against any of her portfolios.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  06:52:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
D&D kind of muddies the waters; Sobek and Apep should definitely not be demipowers. Pathfinder's version of Sobek is far closer to the real myth of the crocodile god than the cowardly sycophant of the Mulhorandi pantheon, while Apep should either be a greater power or something equivalent to Jormungandr or Dendar - a cosmic horror intrinsicly tied to his pantheon.

Set himself is generally overhyped as a villain. Yes, he is a fratricidal monster, but he's a valued member of the Egyptian pantheon and the protector of Ra. In myth, he and Horus eventually buried the hatchet.

Ravana is an interesting deity. In myth, he's the child of the sage Vishrava and the daitya princess Kaikesi. His father left in disgust when Ravana overthrew Kubera for rule over Lanka, and his mother appealed for the return of Sita to Rama. Despite his lusts, Ravana is also a skilled bard, mystic, scholar and theologian. He penned books on astrology and medicine, and was devoted to Shiva until the very end.

In game terms, I'd say that the rakshasa devoted to Ravana refuse to harm a cleric, worshipper or temple of Shiva, and worshipers of that deity can pass through the rakhshasa realms in Acheron unmolested and are often treated as honored guests. Spellcasters, especially wizards and clerics, are often invited to the power's palace for discussions on philosophy, magical theory and theology; bards are invited to perform for Ravana's court. Those who fail to impress are slain outright or tortured; those who do impress are allowed to peruse the Lord of Lanka's vast libraries of grimoires, masterpieces and esoteric texts.
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  18:26:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Sseth and Set are separate during 2e, so that's what I'm sticking with (same reason I didn't address 3e's two new aspects for Shekinester, which would also have necessitating writing up the new naga race). I don't really see the pair interacting much at all; Set isn't the "big evil" of Egyptian mythology that he is made out to be (which isn't to say he isn't *an* evil of it); Apep/Apophis is, and Set is portrayed as aiding the others in that struggle. Overall, he is neither aligned directly with or directly against any of her portfolios.
Yeah, I realize that - Set is to the Pharonics what Loki is to the Norse (without the sense of humor).

Set and Baast have an ancient relationship - I have theorized it may even predate the Egyptian pantheon (in D&D, obviously not RW). Part of her 'job' with that pantheon is keeping a close eye on Set, who isn't all that trustworthy (thats Egypt canon). Now both have 'gone on' to become parts of other pantheons (in D&D, and strangely, RW as well), so their relationship has become extremely complex. I almost can get the vibe that they have been enemies for so long they morphed into 'frenemies' ("no-one kills you but ME").

But yeah, Set gets a bum wrap in modern folklore, just as Hades does - neither of them were overtly evil, just selfish douches (and what gods aren't?)

So all of this now has me thinking of a very primal storyline wherein a 'serpent' and tree are involved, and my first thought of course was the story of Adam and Eve. The reason for this is because 4e made Corellon one of the most ancient, omnipresent Gods (Estelar) in the Creation Myths (of everyone, not just elves), hence the tree representing 'nature'. I was trying to come up with a way of connecting Corellon's now uber-status in the grand hierarchy of 'elder gods' to a conflict with 'The serpent'. Anyhow, after the A&E thing popped into my head, the next thing was The Little Prince, which I recall seeing as a child and thinking it a horrific story when you break it down.

But I may be able to work with that, if I make 'The Prince' an allegory for Corellon...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  19:31:32  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Set went waaay beyond 'selfish douche' when he murdered his brother and dismembered him.
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Baltas
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Posted - 03 Apr 2018 :  19:54:58  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-AuldDragon

(Hey, long time no see)

Very interesting write-up of Shekinester, although as we discussed, you didn't include Ssharstrune, although he (it?) may be just Toril-specific.

I thought other aspects of Shekinester, would be alied with other aspects of Kali/Parvati/Durga (Shakti) - specifically Preserver with Parvati, and the Empowerer with Durga.

I also think now Shekinester could have an eninimity, or relation in the Weaver aspect with Shaktari, who is worshipped by some Naga.

Especially that Shaktari takes on may similar themes as Shekinester.

- Markustay

I personally, connect Aerdie Fenya with Freyja - Aerdrie Faenya's very name, seems to be call back to Freyja - "Fenya", even sounds like a corruption/alteration of Freyja, and Aerdie, being a corruption of Erda/Jord, who often is thought to be the mother of Freyja (ie Erda being the same as Nerthus/Njordr's sister-wife). So Aerdie Fenya, could be in reverse order, basically a version of "Freyja Erdadottir" - Freya, Daughter of Erda. Aerdrie Faenya, even sonce earliest lore, spends half of her time in Ysgard, and has a domain there. Freyja, also since irst edition, has a Falcon as a symbol. So I think there is a deliberate connection...
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