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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 20:02:36
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Or maybe what was up? (Since i don't know what's become of Luskan in 4e)
In The Savage Frontier Arklem Greeth is stated to be the master of the Hosttower of the Arcane.
In Volo's Guide to the North Queltar Thaeloon is stated to be the Archmage Arcane and ruler of the Brotherhood.
In Lords of Darkness its stated that Arklem Greeth has always been the head of the Brotherhood since it's founding and that he, an 18th level wizard, ruled over the Overwizards listed in Volo's Guide to the North, each of which was higher level than him (levels 20, 22, 21 and 19). Furthermore it's stated those 4 rebelled against him and he fled alive, came back and forced all to flee (except one that he killed) ... what gives?
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 21:04:49
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Beast has an excellent summary written up about the Arcane Brotherhood and the many different leaderships in the 1300s on a thread here at Candlekeep (hopefully he sees this and links to it or copy/pastes).
Basically some of the lore from those books doesn't really make a lot of sense, but you could think that Arklem was acting behind the scenes with Queltar as the figurehead at some points before he takes it over. For the levels, well when you're dealing with wizards of a certain level, adding an extra hitpoint or extra 9th level spell doesn't really mean they are going to win in a fight. Arklem could have just had better magic items, been a lich, had more underling supporters, etc. when the fight happened?
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 00:35:13
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I'm not sure, Seravin. Was this the post you were talking about, posted on <03 Oct 2013 : 06:29:13>?
A summary of the Arcane Brotherhood's history follows, based on the info in that post:
1311 DR: AK arrives in Luskan and declares himself Archmage Arcane (Lost Empires of Faerűn, The Grand History of the Realms).
Late 1357 DR: AK is considered to be the AA (The Savage Frontier).
Early Spring, 1365 DR (in conjunction with Passage to Dawn / The Silent Blade): Arklem Greeth is listed as AA (Villain's Lorebook).
Unknown precise date, 1360s DR: Queltar Thaeloon was thought to be the Archmage Arcane by Volo, along with the older list of four Overwizards (Volo's Guide to the North).
1365 DR: Suggested date for AK's transfer of day-to-day control of Host Tower operations to his assistant, Queltar Thaeloon (George Krashos's The North Timeline--Revised).
Spring, 1369 DR: QT is listed as AA, along with the older list of four Overwizards (The Accursed Tower).
1370 DR: QT is listed as the AA, and Arklem Greeth as master of the Host Tower (The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier).
1372 DR: AG listed as AA, with his top lieutenant the Wizard of Green Fire [possibly this is QT] being assassinated in an attempted coup, and four new Overwizards being appointed (Lords of Darkness).
1376 DR: Captain Deudermont of Waterdeep leads an expedition to seize control of Luskan from the Arcane Brotherhood and the High Captains, as well as the four new Overwizards (The Pirate King).
Autumn, 1376 DR: AK explodes the Host Tower, and retreats to his pocket plane beneath Old Illusk; the Arcane Brotherhood ceases to be [EDIT: ceases to be active, although some mages do survive and scatter from the area] (TPK).
1377 DR: The High Captains lead an insurgency against the rule of Governor Deudermont, and take control of Luskan for themselves (TPK).
Spring, 1377 DR: Robillard, Deudermont's mage and personal bodyguard, kills (disembodies) AK, whose spirit retreats to his phylactery (TPK).
[EDIT: By 1385 DR: The high captains lose power over Luskan because of infighting, and the city falls to successive waves of gangs and monsters (FRCG {4E}); however, the high captains do survive and continue operations (Gauntlgrym, Neverwinter).]
Ensuing years: AK's spirit goes completely mad (Gauntlgrym).
1452 DR: Jarlaxle removes AK's phylactery from Old Illusk and begins studying it (Gaunt.). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 10 Dec 2013 20:33:58 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 08:01:38
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| @BEAST: I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your comprehensive timeline posts when someone asks a question here. And I am sure I am not alone in being grateful. Thank you. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 08:46:12
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Great! Awesome stuff BEAST, as always.
Now i'll go check the other sources you referenced that are in my possession and then i'll probably post another thread that will need your insight.
Many thanks! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 09:30:07
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| On a side note: with all those trecks to Old Illusk, is anything about the Old Ones or the Grand Cabal revealed in Gauntlgrym or The Pirate King? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 13:34:07
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Only that the water from the sea that helps hold Maegera comes from the bay at Luskan, transported by the 'roots' of the Host Tower.
Also, despite Arklem being gone, the AB is on the way back up (members believe he's going to return). They're small but they've got agents pretty much everywhere in 1485 [Legacy of the Crystal Shard]. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 10 Dec 2013 13:36:40 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 20:12:39
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Hey, I'm happy to help, folks! There are far too many trivial tidbits of lore to keep track of purely in my head, so I have to take lots of notes. And then I feel obsessively compelled to reorganize my notes to try to make sense out of them. My mind really takes to timelines on whatever subjects I find interesting. I'm glad my efforts are useful to others, out there.
Demzer, bring it on, friend!
TPK had one scene in which Greeth opened a portal in front of a charging Drizzt which sent him and Guenhwyvar to some other plane, in which they had to fight various shadowy creatures. After fighting them for a while, the two returned to the Material with Guen's multi-plane recall ability. I do not know if these monsters were in any way meant to be suggestive of the horrors beneath the Hosttower, or if they were just some random challenge that Greeth was throwing in Drizzt's path.
The FRCG (4E) says that lesser undead creatures roam Cutlass Island around the ruins of the Host Tower, but greater horrors still remain entombed below. With the Gauntlgrym fire primordial's prison having been weakened due to the destruction of the Host Tower, it stands to reason that that of the "greater horrors" might also have been. (I'm not going to Cutlass Island to find out!)
hashimashadoo, If the AB are coming back, then I guess they did not really cease to be in TPK. It said that some of the mages survived, but then they scattered. So I guess the AB simply ceased to be active, at that point, rather than ceasing to be altogether? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 10 Dec 2013 20:49:43 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 12:16:58
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Well George Krashos did provide some very nice lore regarding the host tower arcane that even links with some 4e lore regarding the primordial and its link to the host tower.
It involved Jeriah the chronomancer and a mythallar hidden in the roots of the host tower in an extra dimensional space that was used by the elves to bind the primordial into slumber.
The netherese arcanist that supposedly created the host tower merely stumbled upon the previous elf tower (where the mythallar was still housed) and used it to create a settlement very quickly and morph the tower into what we now know as the host tower. In doing so he doomed himself because as he drew upon the power of the mythallar it drew upon him. Rumours are he still survives in some fashion linked to the mythallar.
So if you accept George's lore (which i definitely do because his work is amazing and often finds its way into official lore anyway). Admittedly he splits Gauntlgrym into two cities, the old underground dwarven city which existed long ago, and the upper human city of Gauntlgrym which was built later by the arcanist Maerin.
We know the old ones exist or existed in an extra dimensional space, and so does this mythallar. So the two could be linked.
We have the arcanist Melathlar possibly still existing as some kind of sentient force linked to the mythallar and therefore the tower so he might be influencing the old ones and indeed the entire arcane brotherhood.
The Old Ones are former members of the Grand Cabal which is first mentioned in -425 in GHoTR. Note this happens before Melathlar discovers the Mythallar and erects the host tower arcane.
quote:
Netherese settlers refound Illusk [–2103, –354] as a magocracy. The ruling group of arcanists, known as the Grand Cabal, names Fynran the Flamelord as high arcanist and ruler.
Then in -354
quote:
The arcanist Melathlar flees Netheril and travels to Illusk [–425, –350]. Fearing phaerimm assaults, he sacrifices his life to power a mighty work of the Art that raises the great stone Host Tower [95], walls, and powerful spellwards around this fledgling settlement.
Now the grand cabal and host tower arcane survive numerous sackings of the city by orcs, uthgar, and everyone else. Laeral Silverhand herself finally seals the host tower arcane and the old ones/grand cabal inside the extradimensional space.
Now at first the grand cabal do not appear to be evil, they rule illusk as a magocracy and one arcanist; Maerin commissions the city of Gauntlgrym to be built in which to house various peoples, including humans from Illusk, so their actions could be seen as benevolent at this point.
However as time progresses they do turn more evil , this quote from GHoTR appears to be the start of a war with the elves and from then on things get more evil.
quote:
–15 DR Year of the Embrace: Gripped by the imperial urge, the leaders of Illusk [–108, –10] expand their nation southward and eastward.
In 806 Laeral seals the grand cabal within the host tower
quote:
806 DR Year of the Warrior’s Rest: The realm of Stornanter is established in the North with Laeral the Witch- Queen as its ruler and Port Llast as its capital. Realizing the importance and strategic location of ruined Illusk, Laeral sees to the rebuilding and resettling of this city. After personally exploring the Host Tower [611, 1311] and encountering the lich survivors of the Grand Cabal, Laeral [762, 841] erects magical barriers around the structure to bar entry.
So by this point the grand cabal is undoubtedly thoroughly evil and a danger to the realms.
Now i am thinking that Melathlar did survive somehow as a disembodied spirit inside this extradimensional space. In fact if it was me i would make the extradimensional space they all dwell in actually exist inside the mythal itself. It is a weird paradox that the mythal exists inside an extradimensional space inside itself but thats what magic is for and it makes it nearly impossible to find (ait doesnt appear Laeral found it).
I think the grand cabal originally was nice (for arcanists) and originally may have dwelled in the host tower, but not inside the extra dimensional space. When the city was attacked, they first retreated inside it. At this point Melathlar began twisting the grand cabal. As they spent more and more time inside the space they become more and more evil, until finally when they were sealed inside it by Uthgar and later Laeral, they are totally evil liches.
Now i dont believe Greeth in any way controls the grand cabal. He was an 18th level wizard in the earliest details of him so there is no way he could overpower or control an entire group of ancient netherese liches that have existed for a thousand years.
I think that over time the wards Laeral created weakened, or the grand cabal/Melathlar found a way to communicate with those outside of the host tower, and they helped Arklem Greeth breach the wards and gain entry. Once inside i reckon the grand cabal/Melathlar dominated Greeth, and use him as their connection to the outside world.
I think the grand cabal/Melathlar are still bound to the extra dimensional space and unable to leave, so they need a society of mages to help them complete their goals.
Of course half of this is Georges work with some dates from GHoTR, the other half is my musing, and i have never read a novel because they tend to ride roughshod over lore in order to make a good story.
The only problem with the above and the grand cabal is that in the LoD writeup it made no mention of the grand cabal. Arklem Greeth was briefly ousted by rebellious overwizards and took an erinyes as his ally in order to obtain lichdom.
He then returned with many powerful fiends and scoured the host tower arcane of its rebellious elements making sure everyone that remained was loyal to him.
So upon his return did Arklem Greeth destroy the grand cabal and the old ones, or did he leave them alone and intact. I'm not sure that even with the help of Balor he could destroy a cabal of demiliches from Netheril.
So is Arklem as of 1371 operating with the grand cabal still or ignoring them in favour of the erinyes and her demonic superiors in her quest to destroy the silver marches. |
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What's up with the Arcane Brotherhood?
