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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 10:48:51
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Im trying to figure out what were the borders of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows around 1375 DR. I know that there aren't clear cut political boundaries but i'm trying to get a general idea of how much territory the Kingdom covered.
I've tried looking for a "Faerun 4e political map" on the web to no avail, the 4e campaign map shows the Kingdom as completely on the Spine of the World, pushed against the Endless Ice Sea but there is no indication of borders so where the name is on the map and where the actual nation is may be different, besides that map is more than one hundred years too late for me (but it can give me a good idea about future expansion for the Kingdom).
The 3e sources i checked (FRCS and Silver Marches) don't have the Kingdom of Many-Arrows yet but in the political map of the FRCS the Silver Marches cover all the Moonwood and the eastern banks of the Surbrin way up north and stop at The Lands Against the Wall.
The Forgotten Realms Wiki says that the Kingdom of Many-Arrows "stretches From Mithral Hall in the west to the Moonwood in the east and to the Evermoors in the south" and this surprises me because either the Kingdom is a tiny vertical strip of land stuck between Mithral Hall and the Moonwood or it stretches right to the doorsteps of Silverymoon (somewhat believable) and Citadel Felbarr (this i find much more difficult to believe), meaning the orcs snatched close to a quarter of the original territory of the Silver Marches for themselves (another thing i find difficult to believe).
Ignoring for a moment anything official said on the matter and looking at maps (The Forgotten Realms Atlas, the map that comes with the 3e FRCS and the map in Silver Marches) it seems that the Kingdom of Many-Arrows hasn't much space to expand to (peacefully) to the east and to the south (with the Silver Marches and later Luruar there and with the Treaty in place), to the north it has the Endless Ice Sea (nothing to conquer there, no reason for the orcs to go farther north than the Spine of the World) and the Tholvarr's Frost Giant allies to the north-east (unsure if they're still allies after the Treaty, anyway i don't think the orcs could easily expand into firmly ruled frost giant territory). This leaves only the west open for expansion and conquest, meaning more Spine of the World, the Lurkwood and Mirabar and surrounding lands (noting here that Mirabar is not a member of the Silver Marches in 3e).
Part of my problems rise from the fact i don't know what borders were agreed upon with the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge (meaning how much territory of the Silver Marches did the orc snatch before signing the peace). Also the Kingdom was born in 1371 and the Treaty was signed in 1372, this leaves (for my purposes) 3 years of expansion to the orcs (in a territory chock full of wandering barbarian tribes, other monsters and goblinoids everywhere, giants of all hilks on every inch of ground above sea level and mad werebeasts in the woods) meaning that probably the borders are still very close to the initial ones sanctioned by the Treaty.
Any help appreciated.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 12:49:56
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FR nations don't have 'hard borders' - they never have.
The current iteration of Many Arrows doesn't even encompass their former lands (Many Arrows Keep), and is very loosely "The Spine of the world', which include the surrounding foothills.
And there's the rub - the entire North is very hilly - it could be argued that the whole thing is one chain of foothills with lots of massive valleys. Thus, the kingdom of Many Arrows really exists wherever a large number of Obould's Orcs happens to be.
A short story somewhere (featuring Drizzt) described in detail a series of forts being built by the Orcs all along their border - that may help. It was the one where he was returning that elf-maid's body to her people for burial.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2013 12:50:32 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 13:29:04
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| The wikis description of Many-Arrows borders is actually based on a quote from the Orc King. Many Arrows is pretty small as far as nations go but I'm guessing that the majority of the population lives inside the Spine (as the orcs always have). I'm sure if BEAST saw this he'd confirm it for us. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 14:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
FR nations don't have 'hard borders' - they never have.
Oh, i know.
But there should be somewhere a place where 9 scouts of Luruar out of 10 tell you that's tuskers territory, and another where 8 dwarves out of 10 of a patrol from Mithral Hall refuse to go because what's there is greenskins concern (so let the greenskin patrols deal with the crazy owlbear over there). Repeat for miles and you have something close to a border while not having a real "hard" border. |
Edited by - Demzer on 10 Dec 2013 14:26:27 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 05:21:11
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(I apologize to Demzer for the delay in responding to this scroll, but it involved a great deal of research into a subject that I have never gotten around to exploring in much detail before now. I have rectified that situation and will be reporting in full, as I have the time.)
THE NAME OF THE KINGDOM:
While many may not be aware of it, Obould's envisioned empire or kingdom of orcs has apparently undergone a series of name changes.
"Obouldar" Early on, when Obould lay in the Spine of the World mountains, seething over the loss of the Citadel of Many-Arrows, he imagined an orc empire of Obouldar (Silver Marches, The Lay of the Land: The Lands Against the Wall: Dark Arrow Keep: p34).
"Kingdom of Dark Arrows"
"Kingdom of Many-Arrows"
GENERAL SUMMARIES OF THE BORDERS OF THE KINGDOM:
SPECIFIC DETAILS OF THE BORDERS OF THE KINGDOM:
North (the foothills of the Spine of the World):
Initially after the disaster at the Citadel of Many-Arrows, no one was quite certain where King Obould had run off to (The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier, I: "Recent History": p10). But soon, it became apparent that he had fled with a contingent of his orcs north into the Spine of the World, where his orcs displaced fog, cloud, and hill giants, who would eventually go on to displace trolls in the Evermoors (Silver Marches, TLOTL: A Brief History of the North: p6). Specifically, he led his orcs to a high vale in the mountains and began fortifying an old castle formerly occupied by giants, and renamed it Dark Arrow Keep (SM, TLOTL: The Border Areas: TSOTW: "Dark Arrow Keep": p33). From there, he gathered forces for an assault upon the lands of the North (FRCS {3E}, Geography: The North: Silver Marches: p172: Important Site: "Citadel Felbarr").
At first, in 1368 DR, King Obould had his sights set on conquering the lowlands below the Spine of the World (FRCS {3E}, Geo.: TN: SM: p175: "King Obould Many-Arrows"). Certainly, he wanted to regain Citadel Felbarr, but he saw no particular reason to stop there.
But then, in 1370 DR, a group of four warmongering drow interlopers facilitated an alliance between King Obould of the orcs, Gerti Orelsdottr of the Thorvarr (frost giants), and eventually Proffit of the trolls (The Orc King, P4:C22). The drow advised Obould to concentrate his attacks within the mountains of the Spine of the World and the land near the Trollmoors, to avoid retaliation from the other powers of the North; the other settlements could wait (The Thousand Orcs, P1:C1). And in a theretofore unheard-of act of wisdom, Obould consented.
He began sending out orc raiding parties into the Spine of the World, known as "warfists" (SM, TLOTL: TBA: TSOTW: "DAK": p33). These scouts were assigned to test enemy offensive tactics, observe defensive measures, and map the land (SM, Politics and Power: Enemies and Threats: p103: "King Obould Many-Arrows"). By winter, early 1371 DR, a hundred bands composed of both orcs and frost giants roamed the mountain chain, looking for targets of opportunity (TTO, Prelude).
One of these combined bands is known to have attacked the village of Clicking Heels (TTO, P1:C6), which was said to have been one of those sorts of secluded settlements that rarely show up on any map (TTO, P2:C9). There, Obould learned of two dwarves who had fled a previous orc raid attack (TTO, Pre.), and that they were intending to head off to Mithral Hall (TTO, P1:C6). This would eventually bring two kings, one orc and one dwarf, together in an epic clash.
When the two dwarf survivors ran into King Bruenor's caravan, which was headed through the Fell Pass enroute to Mithral Hall, a dwarven war party broke off from the main caravan and headed up into the Spine of the World (TTO, P1:C7). This war party found the ruined village of Clicking Heels (TTO, P2:C9), and from there, moved northeast to visit communities on the Surbrin along the way to the town of Shallows (TTO, P2:C11). (The Surbrin actually ran to the east of Shallows {TTO, P4:C21}, which would place Shallows on the western bank of the river.) Obould's orcs and Gerti's giants tracked the war party to Shallows (TTO, P4:C21), and then proceeded to attack the town: the giants from the north, and the orcs from the south (TTO, P4:C24).
So King Obould Many-Arrows is known to have conquered land at least as far north up into the Spine of the World mountains as the town of Shallows. It is unknown exactly how many such towns he sacked, but it was enough to sent a stream of refugees to Mithral Hall (The Two Swords, Pre.).
However, later in the war, in autumn of 1371 DR, Obould told Gerti that he would take the land from the foothills of the Spine of the World southward, and that the frost giants could have the mountains for themselves (TTS, P2:C10). Therefore, this would serve as the far northern border of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows.
West (The Fell Pass & the western entrance to Keeper's Dale):
While Obould would eventually claim the Fell Pass as part of his kingdom, it's not entirely clear why. He doesn't appear to have ever actually conquered that particular stretch of land.
When Bruenor's caravan traveled from Icewind Dale back toward Mithral Hall, they first went through Khedrun Pass. Once out of the pass, Catti-brie found two pairs of footprints: one for a frost giant, and one for an orc. These prints already appeared to be several days old by that point. The caravan then continued on its way through the Fell Pass, which Bruenor referred to as "a haunted pass" (TTO, P1:C5).
This would indicate that King Obould must've sent a warfist westward through the Fell Pass, and almost to Khedrun Pass. But there is no record of any recent battle there, or of any settlements being erected there.
In the winter, late 1371 DR, Drizzt and Innovindil overflew the western reaches of the new Kingdom of Many-Arrows, and it is said that they "broke clear of the orcs in the Haunted Pass to the west" ("Comrades At Odds"). This was probably a reference to the Fell Pass, as Bruenor had previously called the Fell Pass "a haunted pass", and it extended over the northwestern side of Mithral Hall. And if they broke clear of orcs there, then that might mean that there were orcs all along the western side of Mithral Hall until the duo arrived at the Fell Pass, or it might mean that the Fell Pass was the last place that the two actually saw any Many-Arrows orcs. The former option is probably the correct one, for in the winter, early 1372 DR, Bruenor's adventure party to the Fell Pass encountered plenty of deep snow, but not a single orc at all (TOK, P2:C9).
Obould's orcs pursued Bruenor's dwarves from the ruins of Shallows all the way to the sloping grounds north of the cliff overlooking Keeper's Dale (TTO, P4:C26; The Lone Drow, P1:C2). Obould led a force out past the western end of Keeper's Dale and then squeezed the dwarves back into the valley (TLD, P4:C27-30), and it was at this point that the dwarves on the northern cliff fled over the cliff and down into the valley, and then all the way back into Mithral Hall's western gate (TLD, P4:C30).
From there, the frost giants began sealing up the western doors (TLD, P4:C31). Those doors were closed and barricaded (TTS, Pre.). Then a force of tens of thousands of orcs and frost giants set up camp in the valley (TTS, P1:C2), where they practiced formations, prepared weapons, and erected a pair of seige towers (TTS, P1:C7). Their invasion of the Hall through those western doors (TTS, P1:C7 & P2) would eventually be repelled (TTS, P1:C9 & P2:C10), so Obould ordered his orcs to begin digging in within Keeper's Dale, building stone walls as defensive lines and re-sealing the western doors (TTS, P1:C9 & P2:C10).
These fortifications would continue through the winter of early 1372 DR (The Orc King, ...). The majority of Obould's army would remain within or near Keeper's Dale (TOK, P3:C18 & P4:C24).
King Bruenor ordered the western door, Keeper's Dale, and the northern cliff off-limits ("Bones and Stones"). And because all subsequent cases of people accessing Mithral Hall took place through the eastern door, it would appear that the western door must have remained sealed from then on (...).
This was as far south as Obould's forces would go along the western front during the First Orc War; he did not send any orcs into the land southwest of Mithral Hall during the war. While his ally, the troll leader Proffit, would conduct a campaign in the tunnels between the Trollmoors and Mithral Hall (...), the orcs steered clear of this land aboveground during the war. Obould eventually turned his back on the trolls' underground campaign, altogether (...).
But as soon as the war reached its stalemate in the winter of late 1371 DR, and the goodly forces of the North decided that they would not retaliate against Obould's orcs, the orcs flooded the area southwest of Keeper's Dale. Drizzt's and Innovindil's overflight of the area revealed much orc activity throughout the region ("CAO").
Therefore, the western limits of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows would stretch as far as the approach to Keeper's Dale, and the expanse between Khedrun Pass and Fell Pass.
East (The Surbrin):
South (The Evermoors/Trollmoors):
HARD BORDERS AND BORDER MARKERS:
(Very much a work in progress . . .) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 02 Jan 2014 05:38:42 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 14:49:08
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Absolutely no need to apologize, BEAST.
Take your time, no need to hurry and many thanks for your awesome work. |
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Borders of Many-Arrows (1375)
