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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 03:12:38
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Been very disinterested in the 4E Realms. One RSE too far in my book.
I was excited to hear about the Sundering reboot and picked up the first Sundering novel, "The Companions". I enjoyed the book, especially the Bruenor parts, but it was apparent that this tale was running side by side with Salvatore's "Neverwinter" saga. A week or so later I found "Gauntlgrym" in a $3 bargain buy bin and thought "Why not ...?".
It's taken me to p.312 to find out why I shouldn't have. The Gauntlgrym thread has been running through Salvatore's work for a long time, beginning I think with "The Orc KIng". Bruenor was obsessed with finding the place as it stated as being a lost legendary city of Delzoun. This was in early 2004, although I'm guessing the novel was written in 2003.
Of course there was lore on Gauntlgrym already. Dating back to before Salvatore even knew that there was a campaign setting called the Forgotten Realms. In the venerable sourcebook FR5 The Savage Frontier, published in 1988, at p.41 Gauntlgrym is described as "a large underground city built by dwarves of Delzoun for men (my emphasis) in the early years of an amicable existence of dwarves, elves, and men in the North (long before the Fallen Kingdom)".
Ed Greenwood strikes me as a very generous, goodhearted individual. You only have to see the dedications present at the start of all of his novels to see that friendships and family figure prominently in his life. I'm guessing that he has forged a strong friendship with Salvatore, and he set out why RA's take on Gauntlgrym as an old dwarven city of Delzoun was correct here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.aspTOPIC_ID=13186&whichpage=93&SearchTerms=gauntlgrym
So now we have two underground cities in the Crags: Gauntlgrym for the dwarves of Delzoun and Gauntulgrym for the humans, built by the dwarves of Delzoun.
All of that works (albeit still needing a substantial further massage, which isn;t really necessary at this time ...) and we find Salvatore finally bringing Bruenor to Gauntlgrym in the book of the same name. Published in 2011.
In 2007, a small little book titled "The Grand History of the Realms" was released. It provided dates and events. Bucketloads of them. Lots from the area known as the North, some of which had already made an appearance in "Lost Empires of Faerun", published in 2005. ON p.137 of that book, we see the dates and events relating to Gauntlgrym (should be Gauntulgrym after Ed's clarification) and the Hosttower of the Arcane.
So why on p.312 of the novel "Gauntlgrym" written in 2011, does Salvatore ignore the clear, existing realmslore on the Hosttower and spin ... stuff ... about the dwarves building the Hosttower for elves in return for them binding a primordial to fire a forge in Gauntlgrym?
I'm guessing that it was because it didn't fit into the story he wanted to write. Because he considered that he could ignore the existing lore in favour of his own vision and "great ideas". Because no one would care, or if they did it didn't matter to him anyway. We'll never know the real reasons, but they are questions that go to the heart of shared world writing.
When writing in a shared world, you have give respect. Respect to the setting and to the writers who have gone before you, alongside you and will work with your material in times going forward. It will be interesting to see what the 5E Realms will do with Gauntlgrym. Let's see if they treat RA's work with more respect than he did to the efforts of the writers of LEoF and GHotR.
The Swordsage
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Edited by - Swordsage on 01 Oct 2013 03:14:18
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 05:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
The Gauntlgrym thread has been running through Salvatore's work for a long time, beginning I think with "The Orc KIng". Bruenor was obsessed with finding the place as it stated as being a lost legendary city of Delzoun. This was in early 2004, although I'm guessing the novel was written in 2003.
Bob first wrote of Bruenor's obsession with Gauntlgrym in 2001, for the 2002 release The Thousand Orcs.
I think Bob had actually been planning on the search for Gauntlgrym to be Bruenor's rationale for heading from Icewind Dale back into Luruar/the Silver Marches. But late 2E's/3E's meme of the revenge of King Obould kinda got in the way of all that. So instead, Bob wrote that Bruenor left Icewind Dale because King Gandalug died, and on the way back to Mithral Hall, he ran into King Obould, and a war ensued. This was a case of Bob putting his pet project on the back burner, and letting the higher priorities of the new edition of the Realms reign.
quote:
Of course there was lore on Gauntlgrym already. Dating back to before Salvatore even knew that there was a campaign setting called the Forgotten Realms. In the venerable sourcebook FR5 The Savage Frontier, published in 1988, at p.41 Gauntlgrym is described as "a large underground city built by dwarves of Delzoun for men (my emphasis) in the early years of an amicable existence of dwarves, elves, and men in the North (long before the Fallen Kingdom)".
Ed Greenwood strikes me as a very generous, goodhearted individual. You only have to see the dedications present at the start of all of his novels to see that friendships and family figure prominently in his life. I'm guessing that he has forged a strong friendship with Salvatore, and he set out why RA's take on Gauntlgrym as an old dwarven city of Delzoun was correct here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.aspTOPIC_ID=13186&whichpage=93&SearchTerms=gauntlgrym
So now we have two underground cities in the Crags: Gauntlgrym for the dwarves of Delzoun and Gauntulgrym for the humans, built by the dwarves of Delzoun.
As politely as I could, I pushed both Bob and Ed on all of this. I don't know what actually happened, but I can only tell you what they have both said, after the fact.
Bob says he has fuzzy memories of talking to Ed long ago about Gauntlgrym actually having been THE Delzoun mother lode of a fortress, which was subsequently built over for humans. Regardless of all the lore tidbits that gamers got about the human town over the various editions, Bob, with his fascination with dwarves and all, always remained intrigued by that older, original city.
When he was approached by WOTC to return to the fold and start writing Realms fiction again, he was actively pursued. They really wanted him! But we all, in the fandom, don't know necessarily know what all the terms and conditions were of that return. I'm not saying this to sound all cloak and dagger, or to spur conspiracy theories. I'm just saying that they wanted him, and after his previous falling out with TSR, he wanted some things, too. Obviously.
That original town of Gauntlgrym remained intriguing to Bob--clearly so, since he kept putting the name of the town into Bruenor's mouth in book after book.
I learned of the controversy about the "true" nature of Gauntlgrym from here at Candlekeep, and after reading a lot of one-sided bashing of RAS over the issue, I decided to ask Ed to clear up the matter. Ed gave us the theretofore publicly unheard-of compromise explanation, which you linked to.
Now, you can take what Ed said, through THO, at face value, or not. That's your choice.
Or you can insinuate that something else was going on, there, because of Ed's good nature and all.
All I know is that I, personally, was tired of one-sided hatemongering against Bob on the issue, so I did something about it, and went straight to the horse's mouth. And that's where it stands, to this day.
quote:
So why on p.312 of the novel "Gauntlgrym" written in 2011, does Salvatore ignore the clear, existing realmslore on the Hosttower and spin ... stuff ... about the dwarves building the Hosttower for elves in return for them binding a primordial to fire a forge in Gauntlgrym?
I'm guessing that it was because it didn't fit into the story he wanted to write. Because he considered that he could ignore the existing lore in favour of his own vision and "great ideas". Because no one would care, or if they did it didn't matter to him anyway. We'll never know the real reasons, but they are questions that go to the heart of shared world writing.
When writing in a shared world, you have give respect. Respect to the setting and to the writers who have gone before you, alongside you and will work with your material in times going forward. It will be interesting to see what the 5E Realms will do with Gauntlgrym. Let's see if they treat RA's work with more respect than he did to the efforts of the writers of LEoF and GHotR.
You seem to forget that the concept of "shared world" cuts a lot of different ways. It doesn't just mean that one author (say, Bob) has to conform to everything everybody else has written, hollowly parroting that which has come before. It means that lots of writers get to add to the mix, creating a smorgasbord concoction for us all to consume, or sample from, at our leisure. The respect that you write of must be extended to all writers and their creative instincts and inputs. When Ed signed over the Realms to TSR, and later WOTC, he agreed to loosen up the reins like that. Therefore, we all need to recognize that looseness in those reins.
The design team for 4E coordinated on the direction of things in their first major adventure area for that edition, which was Neverwinter. There were going to be Bob's novels in the area, the Neverwinter Campaign Setting sourcebook, and a video game. There had to be coordination on this stuff, for all of that.
Bob was approached about the opportunity to destroy the town of Neverwinter. I don't know whose idea it was to use a primordial to do it, or to modify the Hosttower's history in order to jibe with the primordial story, but it all was agreed upon early on, and incorporated into all of the canonical materials, from that point on. These were 4E team decisions. So it's really not right to appropriate blame for any unseemliness of it to any one person.
Remember, the Realms are shared. They are not dictated. Various people get to add stuff into the pot. And over time, the concoction changes. You can resent the fact that it has changed from what it originally was. But don't blame the various cooks who were given permission to add things into the pot.
On the other hand, it can be argued that the Realms have long been in need of another "traffic cop" (or maybe that should now be "head chef", owing to my metaphor?) in order to coordinate things better. The sharing obviously stands to be coordinated better. But that need has to be addressed at the management level. The consequences for the lack of an effective traffic cop/head chef should not be blamed on any one of the affected authors. That is a misappropriation of blame. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 01 Oct 2013 06:00:03 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 08:10:47
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I think the OP takes issue with the fact that RA Salvatore now has the dwarves of Delzoun building the Hosttower.
The Neverwinter campaign setting does a fair job of weaving in the Maerin reference in GHotR to the novel but they don't go near the Hosttower reference.
Clean up crew on aisle 7!:)
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 08:15:15
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Oh and P.S.: I don't agree that writers aren't bound by 'what has gone before'. No FR work should ever be ignored. It can be massaged, tweaked, explained away, etc but it should never be ignored.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 14:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh and P.S.: I don't agree that writers aren't bound by 'what has gone before'. No FR work should ever be ignored. It can be massaged, tweaked, explained away, etc but it should never be ignored.
-- George Krashos
Exactly.
It's a shared world. It's not a new world every time a author writes a new book. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 15:24:49
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One has to be a bit philosophical about this, or risk going mad over the numerous contradictions one will find between the works of different scribes.
I think of the designers, authors, and loremasters of the setting as sages, all of whom have their own motivations, opinions, and methods of research. They might all/mostly agree on every day, easily confirmable details, but when you get into the nitty gritty, particularly on a subject that is hard to confirm one way or another, or is extremely old, or is still shrouded in mystery, sagely opinions differ widely. Gauntlgrym has been lost and reduced to myth for a long, long time--it's no surprise that some sages simply got it wrong, misinterpreted the information, or focused on the wrong facts in their studies. We know historians do this in our world, and we're a lot more connected to the facts here.
We like to think we know everything there is to know in the Realms, but that's just not the case. It is a living, breathing, evolving world, and sometimes the facts can surprise us. Which is not to say that authors/designers should not take into account what has gone before--it just means that a little fuzziness is to be expected and, indeed, celebrated.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 18:44:35
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I think you have to go back to a theme at the core of the realms.....that of the unreliable narrator(s)......so what if old bag O'bones McSaggy Pants said way back in the year of the twisted knickers that the Hosttower was built by so and so.
Old McSaggy Pants was wrong......just as we must assume this new more modern source could be as well in the future when more "facts" are uncovered
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 02:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
the year of the twisted knickers
New entry in the Roll of Years. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 06:29:13
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Let's look at some key sources concerning the Host Tower, shall we?
1993: Volo's Guide to the North, unknown current year. Gives a list of the leadership of the Arcane Brotherhood, including the four Overwizards, and one Queltar Thaeloon as the Archmage Arcane. There is no mention of Arklem Greeth.
1996: The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier, 1370 DR. Lists both Thaeloon as the Archmage Arcane, and Greeth as master of the Host Tower. Also lists both Dendybar and Whisper as notable, still-living NPCs of Luskan--even though both were killed off in 1356 DR in RAS's Streams of Silver (1989).
1998: Villain's Lorebook, "current date" varies by NPC article, but the RAS NPC articles seem to be set about spring, 1365 DR, between Passage to Dawn and The Silent Blade. Acknowledges that Dendybar died in Streams of Silver, and lists Greeth as the leader of the Arcane Brotherhood. Makes no mention of Thaeloon.
1999: The Accursed Tower, 1369 DR. Lists the same Arcane Brotherhood leaders as VGTTN, including Thaeloon as Archmage Arcane. Makes no mention of Greeth.
2001: Lords of Darkness, 1372 DR. It is clearly said that no one knows the origins of the Host Tower. Calls Greeth the Archmage Arcane, but says that his top lieutenant, the Wizard of Green Fire, was assassinated in a coup. There is no explicit mention of Thaeloon, or explanation why he had been cited as the Archmage in numerous previous works. Four new Overwizards are listed, including Valindra Shadowmantle and Arabeth Raurym.
2005: Lost Empires of Faerūn, unknown current date, but post-1358 DR. Despite recently being told that no one knows the origin of the Host Tower, suddenly, precise dates and explanations are given for the construction of both the Host Tower and Gauntlgrym [Gauntulgrym]. The sources of this remarkable, newfound information are not provided--they are simply laid out, in apparently absolute terms. No acknowledgment is made that no one knew this information until quite recently, or how profound these new revelations truly are, given that fact. The context of the mystery surrounding the Host Tower's origins is completely ignored or set aside. Also, Greeth is now said to have declared himself Archmage Arcane of the Brotherhood as early as 1311 DR--there is no mention of Thaeloon.
2007: The Grand History of the Realms, 1385 DR. Many of the dates from LEOF concerning the origins of the Host Tower and [Gauntulgrym] are repeated.
2008: The Pirate King, 1376-1377 DR. Lists Greeth as the Archmage, as well as all four new Overwizards from LOD.
The early sources introduced a Queltar Thaeloon as the Archmage Arcane of the Host Tower. At some point, it was apparently decided to clumsily begin phasing in lore about Arklem Greeth, but the Thaeloon lore still lingered. RAS went with the more established Thaeloon lore, as well as the established list of Overwizards, when he lead the team that put out The Accursed Tower game module.
For some odd reason, the writers of TN:GTTSF totally missed the fact that RAS had long since killed off two of his characters in SOSi, and listed them as still alive and kicking in Luskan in 1370 DR. Fine, whatever.
To show that he could be a team player and acknowledge changes in the lay of the land, when new Overwizards were appointed in Lords of Darkness, RAS picked up the new Overwizards, as well as the fact that Greeth was clearly the Archmage Arcane at this point, in his novel The Pirate King.
But for some reason, Lost Empires of Faerūn does not mention Thaeloon, at all. It says that Greeth declared himself as the Archmage Arcane practically as soon as he came to Luskan in 1311 DR. It ignores this established lore about the identity of the Archmage Arcane which had been cited in no less than three previous sourcebooks.
Now, I do not mean to demean the awesome amount of work that went into the timelines of LEOF. I am amazed every time I check that book out and see how well everything fits together.
But it needs to be realized that RAS is not the only one who has missed things along the way, here. He is not the only one who has moved forward with a project or agenda without fully acknowledging previously established lore, or explaining it away.
Re: the Queltar Thaeloon stuff.
I would suggest that Arklem Greeth may have set up Thaeloon as a front man, to serve as the alleged Archmage Arcane of the Host Tower. Greeth may have secretly exercised influence from the shadows for a long time, much like the Old Ones are said to have done. He might not have wanted to be the obvious, public face of the Arcane Brotherhood. (Jarlaxle Baenre has similarly taken a back seat in certain political structures.)
Thaeloon may have also been the top lieutenant, this so-called Wizard of the Green Fire, who was assassinated. And when that happened, it probably set the stage for Greeth to finally become the incontrovertible, openly avowed Archmage Arcane, once and for all, in 1372 DR.
Re: The stuff about the supposed origin of the Host Tower in LEOF and TGHOTR.
Perhaps history has been mis-reported, in that Melathlar did not actually raise the Host Tower. Maybe he only renovated or reformed it. Maybe a preexisting Host Tower was severely damaged at some point, and he rebuilt it. And maybe his efforts were so successful, that he has since been credited with having done more than what he actually did. Perhaps the true origins of the Host Tower were forgotten, or censored, in order to puff up the legend of the great and powerful Melathlar.
What if the treelike branches of the original Host Tower were shorter, and lower to the ground? Might Melathlar's actions have somehow caused the structure to grow, taking on an even mightier, more majestic appearance than ever before? If the reformed Host Tower overshadowed the original tower, that would go a long way toward explaining why history could have been misreported concerning its origins. Seen in this light, Melathlar did raise a Host Tower--this current Host Tower--just not the original one.
This has just been my attempt to try to massage the lore, as George said. I really don't think any of us needs to pick on any one writer for failing to take everything that came before into full consideration in follow-up works. Stuff happens. We should acknowledge that, but instead of playing the blame game about it, we should try to make sense out of it, and then move forward with it. There are so many inconsistencies in Realmslore--many of which interestingly enough actually have nothing to do with RAS!--that we could easily drive ourselves crazy and turn into total curmudgeonly old men and women if let ourselves obsess and hold grudges over them. Isn't it far better for us to think of creative ways to smooth over the differences in the sources, and then to move forward? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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joeplummer
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 12:14:12
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| the forgotten realms/dungeons and dragons universe has been written by dozens of authors over an expanse of 40 years, there are going to be many inconsistencies some big and some small |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 12:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Let's look at some key sources concerning the Host Tower, shall we?
<SNIP>
Now, I do not mean to demean the awesome amount of work that went into the timelines of LEOF. I am amazed every time I check that book out and see how well everything fits together.
Why thank you. All that information and the dates come from my "North Timeline" which was written in 2002 and then subsequently revised a few years later. You should have seen the timelines originally proposed for LEoF.
It can be found in a few places around the web and has a solution of sorts for the Queltar/Greeth/Wizard of Green Fire issues you raise. I thought it quite elegant actually. I can e-mail you a copy if you like.
I've been having a few thoughts on the Gauntlgrym issue and should have something up on my thread tomorrow that might smooth over a few of the speed bumps and appease the aggrieved (as much as they can be appeased).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Oct 2013 13:01:41 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2013 : 06:09:00
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... and posted on my thread.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 19:14:59
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Just do what I do...
RAS writes in a separate dimension then the rest of the writers - nothing his says is canon. He's located somewhere out on Toril 615. What happens there has no bearing on the real Realms.
There, all fixed, and that vein in my forehead didn't even twitch this time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gauntlgrym. Really?
