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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 13:31:01
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As for your musings on Kiputytto - you may want to read the excerpt featuring loviatar in Complete Book of Necromancers, somewhere around page 65. It doesn't mention her by name, but who else would be Loviatar's 'sister' (they came from the same pantheon originally).
What is strange about that tale is that it also features Cyric. That gave me my theory that Kiputytto didn't truly die in her battle with Talona (what deity does?), but rather, was placed in some sort of 'deep coma' and hidden away (in a secret tomb beneath one of the Cormyrian swamps, perhaps?) During the ToT, she would have been restored to her mortal form (as all other gods were), and she got herself re-killed (probably by Talona... again). That is how she could have wound up in the afterlife, with Cyric ruling (because anything else breaks the continuity).
On the other hand, it could be that Myrkul had her all along, and used his power to hide her from Loviatar. After the Tot, loviatar is restored, Myrkul is no more, and Cyric is in power (and has no clue about Kiputytto being hidden within his realm, or he just didn't care).
Either way, Kiputytto is still around, in one form or another, and I find it interesting that she had a mortal soul (because she went to the afterlife... which gods do not do). That would validate your supposition that she was an ascended Fey (archfey). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2013 13:32:43 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 14:15:04
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Big chunks of singular elements is how i picture the first primordials (i think that maergera beneath gauntlgrym sounds like one of these), reminiscent of the dawn titans in the Disney Hercules film.
Thats why i'm having renaming the titan that killed the batrachi emperor to a dawn titan so he can be some massive volcanic mass, or huge block of earth, or big tidal wave.
So Shar would be a massive block of dark matter, Selune would be the moon.
Then as time progresses the primordials have kids which are slightly lesser in raw power, but more complex in their nature. So fire + earth = a lava titan. Lava + water = a stone titan. Water + earth = mud titan.
If you have ever played the alchemy phone game, eventually you come up with a human.
Now i'm not saying this happened on Toril, but i kinda liked the idea of the elemental maelstrom - so the inner planes all mixed in the middle and that created the material plane, a great big blob of elemental mass that gradually split into litte worlds as the plane expanded outwards (like our universe).
Perhaps Faerie was created when magic came into being and a large block of this elemental mass disappeared off into it's own planar pocket by accident. A similar event may have happened to form the far realm.
Either way i think primordials came first and ascended to godhood. Once the first few gods were formed, the idea of gods became entrenched and so gods could be formed spontaneously out of nothing but worship of an idea.
I think primordial children come in two varieties, those children created by mating/mixing with another primordial. This creates some kind of amalgam primordial and a unique creature in its own right.
Alternatively the primordials can reproduce asexually (although really its more like taking elemental mass and energy and forming it) to produce an exact replica of itself, but smaller and not a primordial, a lesser race. A creature that can die of old age, get sick, etc.
These are the races we have today.
I dont really care about other worlds and deities that moved between them. I dont believe earth should ever have gods, merely some primordial wandered into earth and was worshipped but never ascended (he remained a primordial) because magic doesnt exist here, this plane is broken. And so popping back through to Toril where magic does exist he actually became a god thanks to being worshipped. We call anything really powerful a god, in Toril a god actually means something and has definition because they can be seen and touched and interacted with.
This is all purely to do with FR cosmology so no real life theological arguments please.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 18:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for your musings on Kiputytto - you may want to read the excerpt featuring loviatar in Complete Book of Necromancers, somewhere around page 65. It doesn't mention her by name, but who else would be Loviatar's 'sister' (they came from the same pantheon originally).
What is strange about that tale is that it also features Cyric. That gave me my theory that Kiputytto didn't truly die in her battle with Talona (what deity does?), but rather, was placed in some sort of 'deep coma' and hidden away (in a secret tomb beneath one of the Cormyrian swamps, perhaps?) During the ToT, she would have been restored to her mortal form (as all other gods were), and she got herself re-killed (probably by Talona... again). That is how she could have wound up in the afterlife, with Cyric ruling (because anything else breaks the continuity).
On the other hand, it could be that Myrkul had her all along, and used his power to hide her from Loviatar. After the Tot, loviatar is restored, Myrkul is no more, and Cyric is in power (and has no clue about Kiputytto being hidden within his realm, or he just didn't care).
Either way, Kiputytto is still around, in one form or another, and I find it interesting that she had a mortal soul (because she went to the afterlife... which gods do not do). That would validate your supposition that she was an ascended Fey (archfey).
Ok, I just read the entry in Complete Book of Necromancers. Oddly, my first thoughts were the story sounds just like the greek story of Persephone and Hades, with the note about winter (which would have made me think Mielikki, also from the Finnish Pantheon). However, my research shows Loviatar as being the daughter of the Lord and Lady of the Dead (Tuoni and Tuonetar) and having 3 sisters (Sister of Kivutar, Kipu-Tytto and Vammatar). Vammatar appears to be a goddess of evil and misfortune, so it could be that this deity was long ago replaced by Beshaba. It could also be that her other sisters are still just powerful fey hags and that Cyric captured one of them.
However, Erkalla (also commonly called Irkalla) and Ganzir are from Babylonian mythology, making Cyric having claimed the domain of Nergal.... which could fit if Jergal and Nergal are the same being (both being lords of the dead... one being a Faerunian deity and the other being a dead Untheric deity who died in the orcgate wars).
So, in essence, I find this entry in Complete Book of Necromancers as interesting, but ultimately there's too many interesting options. The only thing I would say is that whatever happened had to have happened in the short time that Cyric was lord of the dead. The one factor that I see is that it is doubtful that its actually a goddess, since Cyric doesn't have control over dead gods/goddesses. I also find it interesting that this being doesn't go to the Finnish land of the dead Tuonela under Loviatar's parents (Tuoni and Tuonetar the Finnish god and goddess of the underworld), so the question could also be was the "sister" of Loviatar actually dead.
If I were to go anywhere with this, I'd state that the being that was in Cyric's domain was actually one of her other sisters, who is some kind of powerful Archfey Hag. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 18:54:15
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| Oh, and since she goes to Cyric in the winter and is returned to Loviatar in the summer.... perhaps this is the Bheur Hag, who is killed in the winter. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 21:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not only do I believe its the same Tyr
Which is actually flat out stated in the relevant Planescape sources. On Hallowed Grounds states that Tyr/Loviatar/Mielikki are the ones and sames from the Norse/Finnish pantheons who connected to Toril to avoid fading with their former pantheons (Tyr because others were poaching on his traditional role, the other two because they felt like their whole pantheon was preparing to "fade away / ascend to an unknown higher status beyond the planes" and they felt "too young" to follow the rest)
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There is also the question of “dead“ gods. D&D basically states that a god without any worshippers or faith to sustain him becomes something of a dormant stonelike icon drifting around the Astral.
Also happens to dead deities who are slain.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Yet we have “The Dead Three“, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, whose collective divinity was thrust upon Cyric. Much has been written about these four deities, and it seems that somehow, in the end, none of them has actually managed to stay “dead“.
Few deities manage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Moander was also declared dead (though I have my doubts), his divinity given to Finder. Does this mean Moander is floating around the Astral, or is he truly gone forever?
As a dead deity he's floating around. Just like the dead three were
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What about Realms-Tyche? Split into Tymora and Beshaba, but does her divine identity still exist in a dormant state? (I‘m assuming she is technically a *different* goddess than Olympian-Tyche, from whom she was clearly modelled.
I just checked it in On Hallowed Grounds: She has no corpse floating in the Astral (or at least no one has found it yet) but she's gone from her realm in Olympus and it's fading away just like realms of dead deities do.
The fellow olympians have no clue what happened to her, and are barred from the torilian sphere and so far unable to find out more (at least the members who actually care, the pantheon as a whole isn't really looking for her)
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Edited by - Mirtek on 11 Dec 2013 22:08:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 13:52:18
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So I guess Tyche just had a run of bad luck. 
A very odd theory just popped into my head. We know of the existence of conjoined and tripatriate gods. I'm sure there are examples of even more deities joining together to form a single entity; that sort of thing happens all the time. What if Tyche was two separate beings in the beginning, and was separated by the Dawn Cataclysm?
Then another odd though struck me - something similar happened with Mystra. One of my many theories about the whole WoL&D is that Selune and Shaar were two halves of some whole - two different faces of something greater. What if the War of Light & Darkness accidentally created one of these conjoined deities using most of their power? Thus, Mystra would almost be like a prison for the 'bad half' (Shar) of Selune. Supposedly, this 'bad side' got out during the ToT (or earlier?), and Shar was able to get her power back (or at least access it). Thats a theory I've been toying with for awhile now (amongst many others - there is some critical piece of info we are missing about those three).
Here's the new, very weird thought that just struck me - what if Mystra = Tyche. 
If the shadowy part of Mystra did 'get away from her' at some point, which is hinted at in a couple of sources, could that have been during the Dawn Cataclysm? Could Tymora be another aspect of Selune, and Beshaba another aspect of Shar? 
EDIT: And here's another interesting twist - that would mean magic works similar to how it (sometimes) works in Marvel Comics: Wanda (Scarlet Witch) 'does magic' by altering probabilities - thats just changing the luck, right there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2013 13:57:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 14:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I guess Tyche just had a run of bad luck.
A very odd theory just popped into my head. We know of the existence of conjoined and tripatriate gods. I'm sure there are examples of even more deities joining together to form a single entity; that sort of thing happens all the time. What if Tyche was two separate beings in the beginning, and was separated by the Dawn Cataclysm?
Then another odd though struck me - something similar happened with Mystra. One of my many theories about the whole WoL&D is that Selune and Shaar were two halves of some whole - two different faces of something greater. What if the War of Light & Darkness accidentally created one of these conjoined deities using most of their power? Thus, Mystra would almost be like a prison for the 'bad half' (Shar) of Selune. Supposedly, this 'bad side' got out during the ToT (or earlier?), and Shar was able to get her power back (or at least access it). Thats a theory I've been toying with for awhile now (amongst many others - there is some critical piece of info we are missing about those three).
Here's the new, very weird thought that just struck me - what if Mystra = Tyche.
If the shadowy part of Mystra did 'get away from her' at some point, which is hinted at in a couple of sources, could that have been during the Dawn Cataclysm? Could Tymora be another aspect of Selune, and Beshaba another aspect of Shar?
EDIT: And here's another interesting twist - that would mean magic works similar to how it (sometimes) works in Marvel Comics: Wanda (Scarlet Witch) 'does magic' by altering probabilities - thats just changing the luck, right there.
I don't see this as being accepted by the community. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 15:37:50
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Well, as soon as I thought of it, I was also like, "nah... too many holes in that..."
But then I've always wondered what the 'Dawn' in Dawn Cataclysm stood for. I realize Lathander was involved, but that seems a little too simple, ya know? And besides, his 'dawn aspect' may cover other types of dawns (like ages), not just the sun coming up. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 21:49:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if Tyche was two separate beings in the beginning, and was separated by the Dawn Cataclysm?
According to OHG Tyche may have split voluntarily (or not). Or may have split voluntarily in the beginning but these "costumes" overwhelmed her and she was truly torn into the two.
Doing it voluntarily may have been her plan to hide her activities from her fellow olympians. They are a very jealous and powerfull bunch, and Zeus would have surely destroyed her on the spot if he found out that she's planning to migrate from them to another pantheon.
That would also explain why neither Tymora nor Beshaba have ever approached the olympians on the planes or the olympians have never approached one of them. Just being barred from looking into Toril would certainly not have been enough to prevent this story from reaching olympian ears. But if the ladies Luck are actively trying to prevent their former colleagues from discovering it? Seems more plausible that way. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 12 Dec 2013 21:51:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 00:14:19
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The novel “Tymora‘s Luck“ provides much more detail about Tyche‘s division into Tymora and Beshaba.
The usual theological argument is that absence of proof is not proof of absence, but in this case I think it‘s pretty clear that canon categorically identifies Mystra and Tyche as distinct individuals because it just happens to be a simple and obvious truth. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Primordial, Deity, or Cosmic Entity
