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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 17:18:16
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I'm trying to figure out why my group is taking down CR 7+ encounters with not alot of trouble. Why am I running my group against such high encounters? Well besides the fact that encounters their level are not much of a challenge, I run random encounters, and not every encounter is meant to be combat/defeated. Last session they pretty easily defeated 6 gnolls, a 3rd level gnoll ranger with dire wolf and a 3rd level adept. there are 4 PCs of 4th level: Sword and board fighter, druid with cat, elven wizard, hobgoblin rogue. Granted the fighter and rogue are min/maxed pretty well, i just can't seem to find the sweet spot for pushing this group to the limit of their resources without serious danger of total wipe. Any ideas as to what's going on? We don't have a ton of magic items, the fighter has a +2 long sword, lots of potions and scrolls that we never have to use. Two PCs have rings of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1 etc. I calculated how much in gold pieces the PCs should have in terms of gear and they are at or under the appropriate value for their level.
This is in Pathfinder set in the Silver Marches.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 17:41:00
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Maybe you should simply toughen the encounters. Instead of gnolls go for trolls. Do you "cheapen" the DM dice by not counting crits and saves ? If so, donīt, let the player feels the heat and force them to use the potions.
If you think their gear is too high, have them stumble upon a lair of rust monsters. That should solve the problem. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 17:55:39
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Well either the match is wrong, the players are very good at tactics or possible as DM you are not good at tactics.
There is also of course luck with dice.
The foes were 9 and the party 4 (maybe 5 counting the cat). The Encounter calculator does indicate a difficult encounter, but winnable. In part it might be how much time the party has to recover from each encounter. Sooner or later the potions and scrolls should run out, unless the treasure finds replace them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 18:21:49
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Well the ranger surprised them, and the adept got off all his spells so I don't feel like my tactics were all that bad. I am not fudging dice rolls as DM unless there is a story driven reason as to why. The thing is their equipment is pretty standard for the level. One thing is they DO make sure they rest pretty much every day so for 99% of the time they are going into encounters 100% full HPs and spells. One issue is the fighter is MIN/MAX'd as is the rogue and they put up some major damage, and they have alot of HPs. The fighter has like 51. Most CR 3 creatures they can take down in 2-3 rounds.
I did run them against two wraiths (CR 5) which gave them some trouble obviously, but not as much as I thought they would. The druid was down to about 12 HPs and 8 CON. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 18:23:48
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| Try to limit the amount of time your PCs can spend resting and unless your monsters are particularly good at it, don't allow them to get pulled into a fair fight. Use ambushes and hit & run tactics where you can, bottleneck the PCs so they can't bring their full numbers to bear and maybe apply the advanced simple template to some of your random encounters. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 18:45:22
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| are they fighting only one encounter between resting so they are always are full hp and have full access to all their spells? or do they face multiple encounters in a day so they may have used up some of their spells and may be down some hitpoints the next encounter? |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 18:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
are they fighting only one encounter between resting so they are always are full hp and have full access to all their spells? or do they face multiple encounters in a day so they may have used up some of their spells and may be down some hitpoints the next encounter?
In some dungeons at 3rd level they have run more than one encounter between resting. But they usually will rest between encounters, even if they go outside and camp. So 99% of the time they are full HPs and spells. |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 19:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
are they fighting only one encounter between resting so they are always are full hp and have full access to all their spells? or do they face multiple encounters in a day so they may have used up some of their spells and may be down some hitpoints the next encounter?
In some dungeons at 3rd level they have run more than one encounter between resting. But they usually will rest between encounters, even if they go outside and camp. So 99% of the time they are full HPs and spells.
a group is always going to run roughshod over an encounter if they are full health and full spells and know that they can just blow everything on the encounter and then just rest. You need to come up with ways to make them think about not leaving to rest or ways to prevent it.
If they leave, the other monsters in the dungeon can prepare for them to come back, set up traps, set up ambushes or even follow the party outside and wait until they go to sleep and attack them while they are sleeping and are not wearing any armor and have not had a chance to relearn their spells in the morning so would be down on spells.
The monsters could also if they just saw their friends easily slaughtered could up and leave with all the treasure and find some place else to go that is safer. Or they could send a runner out for reinforcements, increasing the monsters they need to fight or even depending on how long it takes the reinforcements to arrive, could arrive after the party has gone back inside and now the party has monsters in front of them and monsters behind them. |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 20:54:01
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the inhabitants of the dungeon could cause a cave in of the entrance blocking the party inside so they can't just go out and camp.
The party may have to go down a pit or a slide of some sort to a lower level, with no way back up the way they came and must find another way out someplace else on that level.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 00:15:42
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| I second the comments above about forcing the party to continue going without much rest. The game, in general, is stacked in favor of the players if they are near full capacity...you need to limit this somewhat. Also, if your using Pathfinder rules, players tend to be bit stronger under that system than 3.5 so you may need to toughen encounters accordingly. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 04:22:40
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How do they handle ranged fighting without ability to move in with ease, like, crossing rope bridge in hail of arrows?
Dividing them or putting a caster who can kick out the party member out of fight or even turn dangerous for party with Confusion or the likes could possibly help, no? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 06:32:01
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Not all enemies must fight to the death. Stage some encounters designed to drain resources and escape. If the players are resting frequently, have the enemies use the time to prepare better defenses. If one CR7 is no challenge, try that same CR7 in favorable conditions (darkness, cover, narrow hallway, etc). Find ways to separate the party or attack them while they are resting. If playing by Pathfinder rules, keep in mind that spell casters can only refresh spell slots once per 24 hour cycle. If they truly are playing a 5 minute adventuring day, then put them on a timeline. As the GM, you control the difficulty.
But keep in mind what your players enjoy. There's a difference between preferring "Easy Mode" and wanting to be prepared. Try to find ways to challenge the characters without completely invalidating player choices (For instance, sending nothing but undead against an Echanter). |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 16:14:50
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You can also design the environments to be such a challenge.
Like, previously, with a rope bridge where orcs are firing arrows at them, or ogres are throwing javelins.
If your group really NEEDS enemies to face them in direct melee combat (where your fighter is at his best?), design encounters so that the enemies only stay ranged to soften up the PCs, and stay ranged from the high ground. A lot of good a power attacking, 2 handed magic sword wielding fighter with weapon focus & specialization is if he can't get within combat.
Situational effects are important too. Things like visibility due to smoke, fog, darkness can impede your PCs. Is there a harsh wind that makes your own PCs ranged attacks more difficult? Increases the likelihood of enemies being able to sneak up and get the drop on the PCs?
Also, if your PCs are playing the video game way (resting after every fight), well, then the monsters can win. The Princess gets eaten, the town gets overrun, or the enemies escape with all the captured merchant goods. When the King/Baron/Father/Storeowner askes 'where is my -----?" they can say they were sleeping. ;) No rewards for them!
And as DM, if they continue to do so, you can lower the experience given as well. If they are not meeting the story requirements of the adventure (if you make that a factor), then why should they be fully rewarded?
Also, as well designed as PF is for EL and such, it's still not strong enough against even the base classes, let alone against a party that has a smattering of magical gear. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 02:52:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
You can also design the environments to be such a challenge.
Like, previously, with a rope bridge where orcs are firing arrows at them, or ogres are throwing javelins.
If your group really NEEDS enemies to face them in direct melee combat (where your fighter is at his best?), design encounters so that the enemies only stay ranged to soften up the PCs, and stay ranged from the high ground. A lot of good a power attacking, 2 handed magic sword wielding fighter with weapon focus & specialization is if he can't get within combat.
Situational effects are important too. Things like visibility due to smoke, fog, darkness can impede your PCs. Is there a harsh wind that makes your own PCs ranged attacks more difficult? Increases the likelihood of enemies being able to sneak up and get the drop on the PCs?
Also, if your PCs are playing the video game way (resting after every fight), well, then the monsters can win. The Princess gets eaten, the town gets overrun, or the enemies escape with all the captured merchant goods. When the King/Baron/Father/Storeowner askes 'where is my -----?" they can say they were sleeping. ;) No rewards for them!
And as DM, if they continue to do so, you can lower the experience given as well. If they are not meeting the story requirements of the adventure (if you make that a factor), then why should they be fully rewarded?
Also, as well designed as PF is for EL and such, it's still not strong enough against even the base classes, let alone against a party that has a smattering of magical gear.
thanks for the advice. We aren't "playing the video game way". My players are very new but they are smart enough to know when they are low on HPs and spells and they will go outside and camp. Unfortunately the dungeons we've been running haven't been very conductive to wearing them down with multiple encounters. They've spent a week in game time exploring one dungeon. I kinda like that they do that but at the same time it's time to start pushing them more. I've tried some different tactics but clearly it's time to get nasty.
Due to the way I run random encounters, where we are there isn't much for sophisticated humanoids that would run with invisibility potions and the like.
It's time to bring in the trolls and the giants....possibly both at the same time :)
They are pretty good about thinking outside the box. They have bypassed at least one combat by using diplomacy and they are very aware that not every encounter is designed to be beaten in combat.
I've tried to have enemies disengage and escape but somehow they always catch them, mostly due to the druids and cats speeds. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 20 Nov 2013 02:54:57 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 12:38:53
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How good are they at camping? Have you tried challenging them with sudden attack of creatures at their camp?
Suddenly I thought of Phantom Fungus. Really nasty creature. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 13:33:58
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Cards77 - I think you are just fortunate enough to have some very good players. I wouldn't take that as a negative - I'd rise to the challenge (there is some excellent advice by others in this thread on how to do that).
Its not a competition. They are 'playing smart', so just enjoy it. I love having players who think things through, rather then try to barrel their way through everything. If they are that good at combat, then throw more RP situations at them, where the choices aren't so clear. You may want to avoid dungeons for awhile and just run urban adventures - that should change things up. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2013 13:34:31 |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 17:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Cards77 - I think you are just fortunate enough to have some very good players. I wouldn't take that as a negative - I'd rise to the challenge (there is some excellent advice by others in this thread on how to do that).
Its not a competition. They are 'playing smart', so just enjoy it. I love having players who think things through, rather then try to barrel their way through everything. If they are that good at combat, then throw more RP situations at them, where the choices aren't so clear. You may want to avoid dungeons for awhile and just run urban adventures - that should change things up.
I feel I should say that I also agree with Markustay. I love when my group challenges me as a DM to simply be better. If they are playing smart, maxing out their potential, and taking their advantages as they present them-good job to them! No doubt about it.
Yet, as the DM, I always want my PCs to know that in each situation, they can die. That was the most favorite thing I've ever heard from my players "Seriously Jim, I think each time we get into combat, we're all gonna die. It really is a huge thing to come through each of these scenarious."
Doesn't mean I'm making uber-kill zones to take them down a peg. But when I see them approach the battle map, I feel I have hardened them into a cohesive unit as to how they divide up the battle with natural and magical barriers, and with the precision they approach the fight as to how they divide up the enemies.
That's the fun I have DMing; you should have just as much fun in crunchy rules/combat stuff as they do!  |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 13:26:10
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As some posters already suggested, using the battlefield against them can make even a simple encounter difficult. Do they have characters with darkvision or low light vision? If not, select enemies with those types of vision and put the fight in less than well-lit areas. Or select some foes with blind fighting/invisibility/tremor sense/etc if you need to ramp it up to full blown out darkness. A pack of darkmantles (CR1 creatures) can give even a higher level group without the right racial mix and spells or supplies (torches, continual light stones) a hard time.
Do the rogue and warrior have multiple weapon types (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing)? If not, throw some creatures with damage resistance to specific types of weapons. Zombies and skeletons are great vs groups that are lacking the right weapons to keep melee classes pinned down. It also works if the players are too keen on always using the same weapon(s) because it has "better stats". Incorporeal creatures also do the trick.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 00:15:42
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| they just blew through a demigorgon and a gorgon both in the same day. So two CR 8s. I'm definitely doing something wrong. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 07:00:59
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True, your players are probably pretty nice guys and everything looks fine.
Aside from monsters much stronger than your characters getting blown away...
I am sorry for prying too close in it, but can I ask what setting you use and what sources do you have for dungeons and encounters? It sounds a bit off. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 05:07:38
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| I haven't read all of the replies above but another thought occurred to me. I've had discussions and seen threads dealing with this sort of thing before. One DM can go through an adventure with players that seem to breeze through while another DM can run the same one and kill off multiple members of the group. It all comes down to playing the opponents intelligently. Use what they have and what they know to their best advantage. Be sure they have a home field advantage (if applicable) and work to stymie player tactics where it seems feasible (especially if the opposition has access to scrying magic to determine said tactics). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 11:37:01
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To add to Arcanamach's post...
Example of the intelligent use of monster.
Shadow Mastiff, while having somewhat high CR, looks redundant with low Difficulty Class of it's abilities and weak basic stats. But, if there is pack of these creatures, it is very hard to resist their abilities if each of them will use the abilities simultaneously, beating quantity with quality.
If the players use teamwork, then that means the villains of dungeons must use one as well. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2013 : 00:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
True, your players are probably pretty nice guys and everything looks fine.
Aside from monsters much stronger than your characters getting blown away...
I am sorry for prying too close in it, but can I ask what setting you use and what sources do you have for dungeons and encounters? It sounds a bit off.
It's Pathfinder set in the FR. So far we've run the two dungeons from the 1st ED boxed set, and random encounters. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 09:14:23
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| So, just info from Pathfinder campaign setting? No supplementals like Book of Nine Swords or Complete Warrior/Adventurer/Scoundrel? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 02:42:55
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| A couple of scrags really gave them a challenge, which is odd. |
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Level 4 group blasting CR 7-8 encounters
