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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2013 :  14:51:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a god in the Complete Book of Dwarves - a dwarven 'High God', who supposedly created the Morndinsamman IIRC (and is not really a part of it).

Thats where I got my theory that Odin, Annam, and this unnamed High God are all one and the same. He would be a primordial earth god, and not a deity.

The elven and dwarven pantheons should be closely associated with the Norse (and now we are right back to Tyr). In fact, ALL the pantheons should be interconnected (with gods operating under different alias' within different settings).

The first dwarves used their eldritch (Rune) magic to make powerful magical artifacts for the gods, in several pantheons.

Oh... almost forgot. Ptah (one of the ArchOrdials in my cosmology) is a dwarf. Just sayin'...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Nov 2013 14:53:25
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2013 :  15:15:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On Fenris & Kezef:
I like the idea of them being the same, but this may be one of those rare cases when we are better-off keeping things separate, despite the lore anomalies.

What if it begins as Sleyvas suggested, but with a twist - Fenris is the offspring of Kezef (with Loki). When Tyr entered the Realms, his followers would have said "Tyr lost his hand to the Chaos Hound", and Faerunians could have simply interpreted it as Kezef (when in fact it was Kezef's spawn that did the deed).

It all comes down to dogma - what people of a world (or region) believe to be true becomes 'The truth' for that setting.

Aside:
Interestingly, I just Wiki'd Fenris (Fenrir), and his name means 'fen dweller', so he is associated with corruption on some level. That could lend credence to an argument that he is the same as Kezef (although I still prefer to keep the two separate - I kinda like the idea of 'spawn of Kezef' running around).

More on the Main Topic:
I also think that 'The World Serpent' is the same being as Gaea - the ArchOrdial that sacrificed herself to save the universe. In my cosmology, she "wrapped herself around the dying form her lover and brother Imarr, to still his thrashing." By merging her energy (life) with that of the world (Ymir), she was able to save it from dying, but not from separating into thousands of 'crystal spheres'. So in terms of The Forgotten Realms, Gaea = World Serpent = Earth Mother. Because she has merged her consciousness with the comatose Ymir, she is not as... mentally nimble?... as other 'gods' anymore.

The same would hold true on every D&D world. A setting such as Athas, defilers have drained most of the 'mana' from the world, so there is very little left of the earth mother. Thus, the world is 'dying'. Of course, energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed, so all this 'spent mana' can be re-collected, and is, inside of mortal souls. If enough people (Preservers) pour their own energy into it, the world can be healed. We've seen Elminster do this very same thing with Silver Fire, and we know that the Chosen can 'fix' (heal?) both magical chaos and magic-dead zones.



Nah, Fenris was born of Angrboda and Loki. Don't go changing that. The true Fenris may be a primordial with the "god template". So, Tyr and Fenris both spin off "avatars" for this new crystal sphere when followers come here. Maybe Fenris TRIED to come over and Ao said "screw you, we've already got a primordial wolf", and that being took up the alias. Maybe Jergal, in his great wisdom, found a way to strip weakened gods of their god template entirely, and in so doing turned the Fenris "god" aspect in the realms into a primordial and covered it in maggots and named it Kezef. Maybe the Fenris aspect in the realms was killed, and Jergal used its god corpse to animate a new primordial. Maybe this stripping of the primordial and god left behind a "something" that was the gray wolf that Uthgar took over (especially considering Uthgar was a warrior of Ruathym / Rus heritage). Similar things might have happened with other Norse animals and Uthgar such as Black Raven/Huginn & Munin.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2013 :  20:36:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do we know of Angrboda? After all, her name means 'one who brings grief' - sounds about right for Kezef.

I have it where original (planer) giants = primordials (Jotuns), although very few would have been of god-like status. Thus, Angrboda could just be a Norse name for the same being as Kezef (maybe having sex with loki drove her mad lol).

As for gender - that really doesn't matter (and shouldn't even apply) at these levels of power. 'Gods' can be anything they want to be when they take physical form.

If we say the Midgard Serpent actually = Dender (rather then 'the world serpent', which I've already said I've connected to gaea), Then Dender becomes the sibling of Fenris, which also sounds about right.

Hel is a problem... I've pegged PF's Pharasma as a surviving vestige of Hel (she obviously didn't do so well in her war with Hades/Lucifer over The Gray Wastes - once again, siting MY OWN homebrew cosmology here). So why does Hel look so human? Or should I fall back on my own advice, and realize that a god's appearance isn't really its true form? Thus, Hel could be a terrible monster, and still look like Hel (from Marvel comics) or even Pharasma, depending upon the local dogma/canon or just however she wants to appear.

And since I am picturing the Marvel comics version of all these beings (and that cosmology as well), where does Mephisto fit into all of this? Is he simply Asmodeus?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Nov 2013 20:40:22
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2013 :  23:05:28  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I‘m a little apprehensive about deities being able to migrate their faith to new worlds/spheres simply by deploying avatars ... personally, I‘m more comfortable with the assumption that a deity cannot become manifest until worshippers exist to demand his presence. Perhaps Realms-Tyr was able to appear (at the vanguard of his celestial army) because sufficient faith in Tyr was already present, believers who brought him across the planes and phlogiston and whatnot. The distinction provides a good reason why interloper gods rarely set up shop in each others‘ worlds. It also seems to provide an explanation for how a god might arrive at a new world while (according to some of the OP‘s assertions) gods cannot usually visit a Prime directly.

AD&D described how great deities can form “aspects“ - an ability lost in later D&D editions - in essence, to form from themselves an entirely new and independent deity of lesser stature and similar temperament and alignments, given some portion of the original deity‘s “portfolios“, domains, and powers. I like aspects more than avatars because they can still be “clones“ of their progenitor yet they possess their own self-willed consciousness. It‘s conceivable that aspects can diverge along unique (and possibly opposing) paths over time, it‘s even possible for aspects to grow in divine power and form aspects of their own, as similar or as different as they like. I might be mistaken, but I see Azuth as a divine aspect impressed upon a mortal, Mystra basically gave him her portfolios of wizards and spellcasting.

@Markus -
Time and space, as we understand them, do not necessarily apply to beings eternal whose existence spans worlds and planes. Specifically, the subjective history of any given deity might be filled with myth and paradox and prophecy tangled beyond mortal comprehensions - multiplied by each instance of the deity known across countless worlds. Perhaps some quasi-Tyrs lost their hand to some form of battle or treachery which differs from the popular wolfbite tale, and yet they are all still Tyr.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Nov 2013 23:16:32
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2013 :  23:31:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is also the question of “dead“ gods. D&D basically states that a god without any worshippers or faith to sustain him becomes something of a dormant stonelike icon drifting around the Astral.

Yet we have “The Dead Three“, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, whose collective divinity was thrust upon Cyric. Much has been written about these four deities, and it seems that somehow, in the end, none of them has actually managed to stay “dead“.

Moander was also declared dead (though I have my doubts), his divinity given to Finder. Does this mean Moander is floating around the Astral, or is he truly gone forever?

What about Realms-Tyche? Split into Tymora and Beshaba, but does her divine identity still exist in a dormant state? (I‘m assuming she is technically a *different* goddess than Olympian-Tyche, from whom she was clearly modelled.)

I think the answers to these sorts of questions could help define whether or not a particular deity qualifies as a “cosmic“ entity.

I recommend Neil Gaimond‘s “American Gods“, an okay novel which presents some interesting ideas. One of these being that gods are sort of like living memes, their existence both sustained and altered by those who worship them ... such gods can only truly die if they are completely forgotten, but who and what they are is also forcibly defined by the ever-changing needs and understandings of those who believe in them. A central theme in this story is how certain “old“ gods try to destroy themselves, yet are powerless to exert any control over their own destinies in a modern world which remembers them only through distorted myths.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Nov 2013 23:38:02
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2013 :  14:21:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That last part you said there - I've been thinking much the same thing all along. When a 'dead god' comes back, it isn't really the same being at all, its just people's memories of that being.

However, I think that that only applies to deities - primordials and other 'cosmic entities' came before mortal worship, thus their existence should not depend upon it.

I think this may all come down to the soul again (something I feel deities have, and other outsiders do not). When a deity is forgotten, its soul dissolves back into the mana-pool of the universe. Its mind, however, remains intact in the astral, just as anyone's does. When a group of mortals (or perhaps even a single mortal) become aware of the deity (and believe in its divinity), some mana is exchanged and the mind of the deity is 're-awakened' from its slumber. The soul is key, me thinks. The persona comes from the mind, and that can just be 'downloaded' into any being at any time.

At first, the returned god would be a demi-power (or even just a vestige), but when enough people start to believe, the god becomes a higher DvR. This is the basis for all worship and religions.

Thus, the gods power-level is actually an amalgam of its believers souls - all of that energy becomes the new soul of the god. No souls = no power, and it goes to hibernate in the astral again. Somehow, in FR, the gods were able to get around this for a time, but Ao set things right after the ToT and now deities are dependent upon their worshipers again.

@Ayrik - I think powers should be able to migrate whenever they want (unless the guardian/Overgod closes the sphere), but with much risk. For every level of power (DvR) a god has, it can create one avatar. Suppose a level 20 deity decides it wants to expand into 15 new worlds and sends avatars there; if those avatars are destroyed, that leaves the deity at level 5 - a mere demi-power - in its own sphere! Other opposing deities would pounce at that time. In some spheres (like FR), the balance of power is so close that even losing just one DvR level could send things spiraling out of control. Thus, there is risk, which is the built-in limiting factor. The universe is just a vast 'casino' to the gods, and they are all playing 'the great game'. You can't win anything if you don't risk something.

A sphere like Realmspace is already over-filled with deities. The normal evolution of such things - pantheons growing and 'consuming' each other - has been unbalanced by all the interloping mortals (brought in by the Imaskari and others). Toril had too many gods competing over everything all at the same time, and thats probably why Ao had to erect the godwall (I don't think it was the Imaskari at all - I think it was Ao, and they just found a way to use it to their advantage). Picture it being like a country limiting immigration - an Overgod can't allow it's sphere to become unbalanced with too many powers, so they have to occasionally set-up a border that stops more immigrants from crossing over. Thats not the default setting for the universe - thats a stop-gap measure. The material of the Sphere itself is sort of like a 'firewall', and it can be tweaked to let various things in or out.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2013 14:25:06
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2013 :  14:34:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since a level 20 deity can split itself into 20 different avatars, that means it can be in 20 places at once. I just wanted to point this out in case anyone was having trouble picturing the same power being in several pantheons at once.

I really do have to make-up a chart at some point of who I think is who (which I think was the original purpose of this thread?) I don't think their are nearly as many 'gods' as people think there are... and at the same time, I think there are far more (because we must include outsiders both above and below that power-tier).

Suppose an Oni or some fey spirit is 'watching over' a waterfall, or a glade, etc, and the local people start to venerate (as in, "give offerings to") that spirit: They have inadvertently started it up the cosmic ladder toward godhood. It would only be an exarch/demigod at first, and probably come under the authority of a higher power (who could crush it at anytime), but it would be on its way. If it ever decides to grab a soul for itself, then it creates the symbiotic relationship with mortals required for deity-hood.

I think fiends find work-arounds to all of this. I think fiends setup cults with a 'high priest', and its really that High priest that is funneling that power to the fiend (so the priest becomes a DvR 0 exarch. at least, at first). People send worship at the priest, and he converts it (an automatic function of the universe) into that divine energy (mana). Just think of High Priests as 'power converters' in these cults. On the downside (for the fiend), there is always the chance the High Priest turns on him and grabs the power for himself, or for some more powerful being (and I am sure these double-crosses happen ALL the time).

I think Asmodeus didn't absorb Azuth at all - that would have been too dangerous (Why would Asmodeeus want to risk having a soul?) I think Asmodeus actually has Azuth trapped in something, and is drawing on his power to 'fake' being a deity.

Deities are like vampires, in a way; they are parasites. They need mortals to survive and gain power. This is a very common trope, through fantasy literature as well as RW mythos/religion.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2013 14:42:38
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2013 :  22:44:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What do we know of Angrboda? After all, her name means 'one who brings grief' - sounds about right for Kezef.

I have it where original (planer) giants = primordials (Jotuns), although very few would have been of god-like status. Thus, Angrboda could just be a Norse name for the same being as Kezef (maybe having sex with loki drove her mad lol).

As for gender - that really doesn't matter (and shouldn't even apply) at these levels of power. 'Gods' can be anything they want to be when they take physical form.

If we say the Midgard Serpent actually = Dender (rather then 'the world serpent', which I've already said I've connected to gaea), Then Dender becomes the sibling of Fenris, which also sounds about right.

Hel is a problem... I've pegged PF's Pharasma as a surviving vestige of Hel (she obviously didn't do so well in her war with Hades/Lucifer over The Gray Wastes - once again, siting MY OWN homebrew cosmology here). So why does Hel look so human? Or should I fall back on my own advice, and realize that a god's appearance isn't really its true form? Thus, Hel could be a terrible monster, and still look like Hel (from Marvel comics) or even Pharasma, depending upon the local dogma/canon or just however she wants to appear.

And since I am picturing the Marvel comics version of all these beings (and that cosmology as well), where does Mephisto fit into all of this? Is he simply Asmodeus?



Angrboda was a female giantess, not a dog (literal version)... turning her into a dog skews stuff too much. We don't say the midgard serpent = Dendar, because Dendar = Nidhogg per Powers and Pantheons. Nidhogg is the Norse serpent in Niflheim who ate at the roots of Yggdrassil and was entrapped by its roots. Hel may not have come over, as well as other Norse deities may not have come over.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2013 :  23:24:25  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Helm seems pretty cut-and-dried Heimdall to me, about the difference being that he guards celestial staircases instead of rainbow bridges. I‘d willingly call Helm an aspect of Heimdall.

The jotun legends in the Realms seem strongly inspired by our Norse counterparts. Although dwarves and dark elves of the Realms have little equivalency with the Norse versions.

I‘m not seeing Hel in the Realms. Shar seems to be her closest counterpart, but the two differ far more than they‘re alike. It would be like claiming that Thor came along, too, and became Tempus or Talos - and we know it just ain‘t so.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2013 :  15:21:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Helm seems pretty cut-and-dried Heimdall to me, about the difference being that he guards celestial staircases instead of rainbow bridges. I‘d willingly call Helm an aspect of Heimdall.

The jotun legends in the Realms seem strongly inspired by our Norse counterparts. Although dwarves and dark elves of the Realms have little equivalency with the Norse versions.

I‘m not seeing Hel in the Realms. Shar seems to be her closest counterpart, but the two differ far more than they‘re alike. It would be like claiming that Thor came along, too, and became Tempus or Talos - and we know it just ain‘t so.



Absolutely agree on the Helm aka Heimdall thing. There is no doubt in my mind that his name just got shortened over time. I'd feel safe in saying that from the Norse pantheon we have Tyr, Heimdall, Nidhogg and Fenris in the realms, and it not be a major issue for anyone. Note, this does also raise an interesting issue in that Tyr slays Helm and then later dies.... so the last two Norse deities put the smack down on each other leading into the spellplague.... also only a few years before Kezef/Fenris is released.

On the Talos/Thor link.... the two personalities are different, but I have this feeling that there's something there... a story of some sort. Talos seemed like a dark amalgam of Thor and Odin to me at one point, but I don't know that that would gain wide acceptance.

Speaking of that though, this just screams that at least some of the Norse Pantheon came to the realms and THINGS happened to them. We have an obvious link with the Rus. Do we have an arrival date for the Rus?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  00:13:07  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I'm going to be a tad heretical here. On the assumption that most FR campaigns are exclusively played in Faerun, with perhaps a few side jaunts to various planes of existence here and there, why is it important to fold in all the planar/god lore of games and campaign settings external to the Realms, into the Realms?

I can understand why TSR/WotC wanted and continue to try and create a homogenous whole out of all of their campaign settings and games - they want to sell books. Lots and lots of books. What I'm less able to understand is, unless you are planning a campaign involving a plane-hopping endless jaunt through the multiverse, why you would bother trying to explain how primordials/fey/small green men from the moon fit into the Realms. Ed's answer was always very simple - they've come from "somewhere else" via gates (now portals). He didn't need to explain anything about that somewhere else or how it existed in the great universal firmament viz a viz the Realms because there was no need to do so. He was more concerned about what merchant caravan was pulling up to the outskirts of Shadowdale and how many Zhent agents were secreted within it.

My Realms exist from the inside out. It's the Realms first and then everything external to the Realms second. If my FR PCs went to Avernus in the Hells, they would find Ed's Nine Hells from Dragon magazine, not anything I've read in a Planescape book or Fiendish Codex. If I place a primordial somewhere in my Realms, it doesn't matter where they've come from. If I introduce a new deity to the Realms (ala Tyr), again it doesn't matter where it's come from (and as an aside in my Realms Tyr subsumed a range of 'local' deites of law/justice when he arrived in the Realms - their names can be found in "Prayers From the Faithful").

I get that planar lore and deities are some people's shtick. Heck, mine is history. But when I see the Realms contorted, time and again, by WotC trying to shoehorn in the lastest buzz idea (that means you Far Realm!), I feel that it promotes a view that the Realms is pigeonhole 34B of some grand, framework of D&D excellence, and that it must be made to fit into that pigeonhole. The fans, as they do, go along for the ride. Bah humbug. Leave my Realms alone.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  02:02:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I think I'm going to be a tad heretical here. On the assumption that most FR campaigns are exclusively played in Faerun, with perhaps a few side jaunts to various planes of existence here and there, why is it important to fold in all the planar/god lore of games and campaign settings external to the Realms, into the Realms?

I can understand why TSR/WotC wanted and continue to try and create a homogenous whole out of all of their campaign settings and games - they want to sell books. Lots and lots of books. What I'm less able to understand is, unless you are planning a campaign involving a plane-hopping endless jaunt through the multiverse, why you would bother trying to explain how primordials/fey/small green men from the moon fit into the Realms. Ed's answer was always very simple - they've come from "somewhere else" via gates (now portals). He didn't need to explain anything about that somewhere else or how it existed in the great universal firmament viz a viz the Realms because there was no need to do so. He was more concerned about what merchant caravan was pulling up to the outskirts of Shadowdale and how many Zhent agents were secreted within it.

My Realms exist from the inside out. It's the Realms first and then everything external to the Realms second. If my FR PCs went to Avernus in the Hells, they would find Ed's Nine Hells from Dragon magazine, not anything I've read in a Planescape book or Fiendish Codex. If I place a primordial somewhere in my Realms, it doesn't matter where they've come from. If I introduce a new deity to the Realms (ala Tyr), again it doesn't matter where it's come from (and as an aside in my Realms Tyr subsumed a range of 'local' deites of law/justice when he arrived in the Realms - their names can be found in "Prayers From the Faithful").

I get that planar lore and deities are some people's shtick. Heck, mine is history. But when I see the Realms contorted, time and again, by WotC trying to shoehorn in the lastest buzz idea (that means you Far Realm!), I feel that it promotes a view that the Realms is pigeonhole 34B of some grand, framework of D&D excellence, and that it must be made to fit into that pigeonhole. The fans, as they do, go along for the ride. Bah humbug. Leave my Realms alone.

-- George Krashos



For me, its all about finding links and tying them to make a story. More often than not, I throw an idea out to see what someone else makes of it. Sometimes it leads nowhere. Personally, my interest in the "Norse Gods of the realms" is that there's obviously some mystery here. There's links to the Norse and Greek Pantheons throughout the lore. Yet, its all hand waved away as you say. Meanwhile, the history that person X writes about how X country was founded is supposed to be more important to us. Personally, the religions that were around back then are just as important to me as who was the king, or who was the general that led the army into some mountains. That's why I'd really like to see some kind of history worked on about the various pantheons that have occurred throughout Toril's history. It would be something fresh, applicable to all eras, and would probably be as embraced by people as much as the GHotR has been.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  03:43:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I think I'm going to be a tad heretical here. On the assumption that most FR campaigns are exclusively played in Faerun, with perhaps a few side jaunts to various planes of existence here and there, why is it important to fold in all the planar/god lore of games and campaign settings external to the Realms, into the Realms?

I can understand why TSR/WotC wanted and continue to try and create a homogenous whole out of all of their campaign settings and games - they want to sell books. Lots and lots of books. What I'm less able to understand is, unless you are planning a campaign involving a plane-hopping endless jaunt through the multiverse, why you would bother trying to explain how primordials/fey/small green men from the moon fit into the Realms. Ed's answer was always very simple - they've come from "somewhere else" via gates (now portals). He didn't need to explain anything about that somewhere else or how it existed in the great universal firmament viz a viz the Realms because there was no need to do so. He was more concerned about what merchant caravan was pulling up to the outskirts of Shadowdale and how many Zhent agents were secreted within it.

My Realms exist from the inside out. It's the Realms first and then everything external to the Realms second. If my FR PCs went to Avernus in the Hells, they would find Ed's Nine Hells from Dragon magazine, not anything I've read in a Planescape book or Fiendish Codex. If I place a primordial somewhere in my Realms, it doesn't matter where they've come from. If I introduce a new deity to the Realms (ala Tyr), again it doesn't matter where it's come from (and as an aside in my Realms Tyr subsumed a range of 'local' deites of law/justice when he arrived in the Realms - their names can be found in "Prayers From the Faithful").

I get that planar lore and deities are some people's shtick. Heck, mine is history. But when I see the Realms contorted, time and again, by WotC trying to shoehorn in the lastest buzz idea (that means you Far Realm!), I feel that it promotes a view that the Realms is pigeonhole 34B of some grand, framework of D&D excellence, and that it must be made to fit into that pigeonhole. The fans, as they do, go along for the ride. Bah humbug. Leave my Realms alone.

-- George Krashos



I agree with friend Krash, for the most part (I would use Planescape lore, where appropriate ). I've never understood the need to try to find connections simply because of similarity, or to assume if deity X from pantheon A came over, then so did the rest, or to bolt on chunks of other settings.

It's obvious that I've no problem borrowing and Realmsifying concepts, as I did with the warforged. I've also been fiddling with an NPC who is essentially a draconian. He's a one-off case, with an entirely different backstory, but someone from Krynn would assume he was a draconian or dragonspawn.

Like many of us, I do like other settings and game settings... But I don't want the settings merged into one or mixed and matched into something else -- if I'm playing in the Iron Kingdoms, I want to be a Cygnaran gun mage, and I want to keep that guy in western Immoren. He's not going to bump into hobbits with a ring, the Defender he's marshaling isn't going to be smashed by a passing Clan Wolf Shadow Cat, and he's not going to encounter Tanis Half-Elven as he steps out of a shower in 1948 Berlin. Each setting has its own strengths and weaknesses, and I like to take each one as it is.

I love Looney Toons. I've enjoyed most of the recent Marvel movies. But if I see Elmer Fudd joining the Avengers, then I'm out. Some things are meant to forever remain separate.

As I've also mentioned in the past, I do love to play in the grey areas of Realmslore. Look at my livegolems: we know the Raumathari liked and used constructs in their war with Narfell. Nothing says they tried making intelligent, free-willed constructs -- but nothing says they didn't, either, and it's not an unlikely development. So in that grey area, I put livegolems.

Ditto with my recent Halaster thread: we know Halaster's dead, we know how he bought the farm... But the official story seems to be lacking, as if there were more details that we never found out. There's a grey area -- so in there, I suggested a far-reaching plan that required his (temporary!) demise.

On the flipside, I don't see a grey area in some of what's been discussed, or I don't see enough of one. Helm and Heimdall, for example. Okay, so one covers guardians, and one guards a bridge. Okay, there are three letters in common in their names. It's not enough for me. I don't see a grey area to play in.

With Earth Tyr losing his hand to Fenris, and Toril Tyr losing his hand to Kezef, that's a grey area -- but it's a small, limited one. One possible interpretation is a connection between Kezef and Fenris. But with no other connection, I need more... If we had more connecting them, I would consider it a larger grey area, and I'd be more amenable to the idea of some connection betwixt the two.

But it seems to me that it's also possible that Toril Tyr lost his hand to a canine monster as a reflection of what happened to Earth Tyr. It's also possible that it's something inextricably tied to Tyr's destiny or essence -- on every world where Tyr is worshipped, he is destined to eventually lose a hand to some nastybad there. Those possibilities take us out of that grey area... When it's that easy to explain something away, and when there isn't solid evidence of something more, then I don't read more into it.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  08:49:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Marvellous, and now that Krash and Wooly have put my thread back on track. More ideas for deific categorisations please.

How about the orc deities.

I know Markus is a big fan of them being fey primordials at some point and i'm a big fan of this idea as well but there are possibilities.

We have a big story involving Gruumsh losing his eye to Corellon Larethian. Again this is a physical event and so both deities would have to be a physical entity at that time. Its clear Corellon was a fey creature so therefore Gruumsh was as well.

There is also the what at first seems a ridiculous idea of Gruumsh and Talos being the same deity all along. However, barring the cross pantheonic nightmares that causes, Gruumsh is a very good fit for a destruction deity, and what better way to get one over on the pesky humans than by persuading to worship a deity working towards their own destruction. Its probably the only 4ed deity lore i would actually entertain.

This however does beg the question of when, where and how the elf and orc gods ascended to godhood.

Given the fact that the elves that originally migrated to Toril in -27,000 DR worshipped the seelie court and not Corellon, then you can assume the Seldarine were still a primordial family at that point. Lolth had been banished to the Abyss, and there are some indications that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were banished to Toril.

Then in -17,600 DR the sundering happened and the elves transplanted a piece of Arvandor (the elvish pantheon's planar home). So by this time the elves did worship the Seldarine.

So when did the orc gods ascend.

We know the orcs arrived before the elves and the first note we have of orcs in Toril is in -24,400.
quote:
The elf city of Occidian is sacked by a horde of orcs led by the abyssal fiend Haeshkarr


Given that the orcs were led by a demon it gives some support to the idea that Gruumsh and the other orc gods had not yet ascended.

Now we don't have a time or a place for Gruumsh and Corellon's battle with each other. We do know that Gruumsh aided Lolth in her attack on the Seldarine so maybe Gruumsh lost his eye in a battle related to that conflict. And for his troubles perhaps he was banished to Toril (along with Vhaeraun and Eilistraee).

However i am thinking that following the elven and orcish migration to Toril, both primordials noticed the absence of their children and went searching for them, arriving through gates in Faerun.

Here the two families of primordials had an encounter and battled as they usually do, and during this conflict Gruumsh lost his eye. Following the two races (orcs and elves) witnessing the conflict of these awesomely powerful primordials parents they began open worship of the elven and orcish primordials and hey presto we have full blown deities - obviously the date would be sometime between -24,400 and -17,600 for this battle, the older the better)

Of course this does beg the question why nobody pinpointed a date and noted this event in the annals of history but sometimes things just get lost in time.

Any other ideas for these two pantheons?

Just as a side thought, are there any actual deities in Faerie, because it seems that all the true deities have sent followers to Faerun and i am thinking that the primordials (archfey) themselves migrated to Faerun in order to ascend because there is something about Faerie that is stopping them - i.e blocking the link between worshippers and hoping to be gods.


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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  13:38:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the deities in Faerie, etc... idea... where did they finally settle with Arvandor. Outer plane or part of the feywild.... or part of the feywild that separated out into the outer planes somehow?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  14:06:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i only really pay attention to 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition lore.

I think most people go with the great wheel cosmology as that makes the most sense, but even in 3rd edition arvandor was in the outer planes.

Deities are all about belief and that belief forms the outer planes. It makes no sense for a deitie's realms to be placed anywhere else.

Obviously demigods are the exception but thats kind of the reason for this thread as not all demigods are gods at all but are in fact primordials.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 29 Nov 2013 :  23:00:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More than that, deities are metaphors. Stories told about them are also metaphors; the battle between Gruumsh and Corellon or the tale about Tyr‘s wolf-bitten hand are described in physical, tangible, concrete ways. But the actual place and time and weapons and methods of these conflicts were probably beyond physical constraints and beyond mortal comprehensions, they inflicted permanent spiritual wounds upon the very essence of these maimed deities, the wounds themselves are metaphors which symbolize particular limits imposed on these deities. I imagine these conflicts as having occurred on a many-layered battlefield, but most understand hand-bit-off and spear-poked-out-an-eye more readily than they do injuries caused by a combination of these things with divine manifestations, magic-vs-magic, clashing artifacts, psionics, and legions of elves vs hordes of orcs.

[/Ayrik]
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 30 Nov 2013 :  07:03:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well thats where I disagree. We have an example of one of these metaphysical events. Its called the dawn cataclysm and details of it are nonexistent because no one witnessed it.
Conversely these stories have much more detail and so must have had witnesses which makes them real events

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 30 Nov 2013 :  14:31:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@GK - for a guy who likes to 'connect all the dots', I find it sort of strange you stop at FR's Crystal Sphere.

Just as knowing FR lore well gives us an infinite number of plot possibilities, then adding the extra layer of the omniverse on top of that gives us that much more to use in our games. For instance, the Vedic Pantheon is present on Toril, but the Norse is not (with the exception of Tyr). Some Sages believe that the Æsir from the Norse mythos are the same as the Assura from the Vedic pantheon, which opens up a world of possibilities in that regard: What if the Norse pantheon doesn't emigrate to Toril because the Vedic pantheon are their primordial enemies? What happens in FR doesn't necessarily STAY in FR (just ask Asmodeus).

I had more here, but I'll just let it go to get back On-Topic.

Gods, Outsiders, and 'tiers':
For game-purposes, we try to create 'hard rules' for how all this stuff works, but the simple truth is, EVERYTHING is on a case-by-case basis. All of these 'spirit beings' are individuals, just as mortals are, and just like no two mortal characters are alike (unless people use gawd-awful 'builds'), no two of these beings have the same powers and abilities. If we throw in that they actually change from sphere to sphere (and have different power levels, etc), then you can see how we can never truly nail-down anything specific as far as what they can and can't do.

In other words, the lines between these different levels of beings are not so defined - they are blurred, A LOT. I theorized (along with others) that 'deity' is just a template any 'god' (spirit-being/Outsider) can acquire. What if there are others we are unaware of? What if another of these theoretical divine templates is 'Elemental ally', or 'Chaos-Infused', etc? Lets say their are an infinite number of these, just as there are an infinite number of mortal templates (SERIOUSLY - have you seen the 3e splats? ). Now lets say that within these are multiple choices, sort-of how Rangers can choose between two-weapon and bow, except that these choices are also near-limitless. That means no two gods are alike, and 'which is more powerful?' is dependent on circumstances as well.

So gods are like liches (perhaps more then I think); there is a place where they keep their 'essence' (their realm), and every last one of them got to where they are by different means, and have a completely different laundry-list of things they are capable of. You can try to categorize liches, but the fact remains, no-two are alike, and any list you create starts to fall apart upon close scrutiny. As hard as we may try, we end-up with way too many exceptions when we try to create rules governing gods as well. We can (probably) figure-out their origins, and list them that way (as Dazzerdal is attempting), but that does not define them, at all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 30 Nov 2013 :  21:11:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i'm really trying to figure out if all those gods are gods. I am going by the best sources (2nd edition god books), but it is clear that not all of these gods are gods, and as an interesting aside I was hoping to find out if they have always been gods.

As to their backstory that's not so important. What's important is if they are primordial, deity, cosmic entity, vestige etc, and of course supporting evidence for and against so we can make a balanced decision.

Once we know what a being is we can figure out what its limits are in a general sort of way (i.e. primordials don't grant spells - at least in my world anyway).

I am with you on the method of a being becoming a superbeing can be unique (although not always so) and always makes an interesting side story but it is not the main focus of my search.

The average god seems to ascend because enough people believe he is a god. So Tyr accomplished this with his procession through Jhaamdath (realms only), the orc, dwarven, and elven gods may have ascended in a similar manner (although we have no details on their ascension just ancient stories that one would not necessarily attribute to a deity).

Whereas the unique ones are Uthgar (looks like he bound a bunch of primordial to serve him and was sponsored by Tempus as a result), Velsharoon may have stolen another gods power with Talos' help. The Dark Three were gifted their godhood by another power after they performed some quests for him. Cyric and Mystra 2 obviously had unique circumstances for ascension as well.

I wonder if Ilmater didn't ascend after making the supreme sacrifice which would make him an ascended mortal but that's just a total guess.

Certainly a lot of the Faerunian deities seem at first to be ascended mortals. They take on humanoid forms and appear to have humanoid values, but from reading other threads here they are the amalgam of many deities from other deities that have merged together as the pantheons merged.

So anyone have any other weird deities that might not be deities or may once have been something else as suggestions.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Dec 2013 :  15:40:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well now that i have my digital copy of Faiths and Avatars i am slowly getting through the various gods.

Came across a few interesting pieces on Talona.

Number 1 - The description of Talona as a withered old crone with a scarred and tattoed face in religious texts.

Number 2 - Her personality is that of a petulant child alternating between aloof and attention seeking

Number 3 - She murdered Kiputytto after the demipower challenged Talona for her portfolio.

Now i am ascribing a lot to the words used which were probably picked for other reasons.

But point one seems odd that she is depicted as a scarred old woman with tattoos and that this depictions is only in religious texts.
Now going from real world situations, the written word is a lot more faithful to its original than oral traditions, and a picture is even more faithful than the written word (spelling mistakes can play havoc with a text over millenia). So i am thinking that Talona really was a decrepid old woman with a scarred and tattoed face. This doesnt necessarily mean she was human, i am thinking (and this will probably please Markus in some way) that she was a Hag of some kind.

Point two, it is an interesting personality for a deity to have, such paradox and inconsistency could possibly highlight a fey link (which would make her a primordial to me).

Point three, and this is most interesting. Kiputytto was a demipower (which we now know means she may have been a primordial), the fact that the word murder was used implies that she was mortal. Normally a god would destroy its opponent and absorb its power, worshippers and portfolio. Here Kiputytto was just plain murdered.

So was this a battle between two ancient rivals. Some on these boards have suspicions that Kiputytto adventured with the dark three for a time which isnt something a god can or would do. Could it be that both Talona and Kiputytto were both very powerful Hag faerie lords (or ladies if you prefer).

Talona probably migrated to Toril much earlier and became a god (alternating between lesser and demipower status as her worship waxed and waned between plagues.

Kiputytto may have ventured into Toril much later when Talona was a demipower (and confined to a single avatar on Faerun) and sought to wrest the deific mantle from her. In the struggle it looks like Kiputytto lost and was either slain or it could be she was imprisoned in the High Moors near the Stonelands, or maybe both, she was slain and her soul imprisoned in the High Moors.

Either way i am thinking both Talona and Kiputytto may have been primordials/archfey from faerie.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Dec 2013 :  16:14:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sune likewise seems a very fey like deity.

She dwells with an elf (Hanali Celani) which i suspect all elves to have been fey primordials at one point.

She is rather aloof, rarely manifesting on the material plane.

She is listed as being a friendly rival with Hanali over who is more beautiful, humans or elves, but this could just be worshipper interpretation, and really the two goddesses are rivals over which of them is the more beautiful and it has nothing to do with their worshippers.

Her list of enemies include deities that are also probably fey in origin: Talos (otherwise known as Gruumsh), Auril, Umberlee (probably the only non fey in this list), Malar, Talona, Tempus (i picture seelie fey as devoting themselves solely to the perfection of an ideal so Tempus could have been a fey devoted to the perfection of war).

Anyway, its just a possibility, although the list of possible fey linked deities is now getting rather large, but then again the links with Toril and Faerie were incredibly strong in ancient times so that is probably why.


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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2013 :  16:31:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well now that i have my digital copy of Faiths and Avatars i am slowly getting through the various gods.

Came across a few interesting pieces on Talona.

Number 1 - The description of Talona as a withered old crone with a scarred and tattoed face in religious texts.

Number 2 - Her personality is that of a petulant child alternating between aloof and attention seeking

Number 3 - She murdered Kiputytto after the demipower challenged Talona for her portfolio.

Now i am ascribing a lot to the words used which were probably picked for other reasons.

But point one seems odd that she is depicted as a scarred old woman with tattoos and that this depictions is only in religious texts.
Now going from real world situations, the written word is a lot more faithful to its original than oral traditions, and a picture is even more faithful than the written word (spelling mistakes can play havoc with a text over millenia). So i am thinking that Talona really was a decrepid old woman with a scarred and tattoed face. This doesnt necessarily mean she was human, i am thinking (and this will probably please Markus in some way) that she was a Hag of some kind.

Point two, it is an interesting personality for a deity to have, such paradox and inconsistency could possibly highlight a fey link (which would make her a primordial to me).

Point three, and this is most interesting. Kiputytto was a demipower (which we now know means she may have been a primordial), the fact that the word murder was used implies that she was mortal. Normally a god would destroy its opponent and absorb its power, worshippers and portfolio. Here Kiputytto was just plain murdered.

So was this a battle between two ancient rivals. Some on these boards have suspicions that Kiputytto adventured with the dark three for a time which isnt something a god can or would do. Could it be that both Talona and Kiputytto were both very powerful Hag faerie lords (or ladies if you prefer).

Talona probably migrated to Toril much earlier and became a god (alternating between lesser and demipower status as her worship waxed and waned between plagues.

Kiputytto may have ventured into Toril much later when Talona was a demipower (and confined to a single avatar on Faerun) and sought to wrest the deific mantle from her. In the struggle it looks like Kiputytto lost and was either slain or it could be she was imprisoned in the High Moors near the Stonelands, or maybe both, she was slain and her soul imprisoned in the High Moors.

Either way i am thinking both Talona and Kiputytto may have been primordials/archfey from faerie.



Kiputytto is a Finnish demigoddess (see the old 1st edition deities and demi-gods). Presumably, she came over with Mielikki and Loviatar, who are also from that pantheon. According to that resource, she appeared to the world most often as "a black skinned, twisted old cron with a scarred face. The members of her cult seem to have all suffered from some wasting disease and bear the marks on their faces."

Because of the fact that she's a multi-spheric deity, I'd be hesitant to say that Kiputytto is actually "dead". Its likely to make people upset. I'd be more likely to say that Talona somehow used her powers of disease to "infect and absorb" Kiputytto's sole avatar that she had manifested in the realms. To her worshippers, they may have seen the avatar of Kiputytto literally change into Talona (or maybe they watched the two fight and literally saw Talona absorb the other).

I do like your idea that Talona was an "archfey" hag who was possibly manifesting her ability to rise as a goddess specific to Toril. This maybe gave her some homefield advantage.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2013 :  16:39:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well given that lots of ancient scandinavian and germanic folklore includes fey creatures, just because a deity is detailed as being worshipped by the Finnish, doesnt mean she didnt still come from Faerie.

The deities of Faerun if they were at one time primordials may have dallied in both worlds (through gates that used to link Faerun and Earth, or just between Faerie and Earth and Faerie and Faerun). Worshipped by beings on both worlds, but never really ascended to godhood on Earth and so eventually moved to Faerun (because the rules on Earth are different and so gods arent possible here - but thats just me being an atheist)

The description of Talona's avatar is also reminiscent of a hag. A tall gaunt human woman with reaching fingers. That coupled with the withered old crone with tattos and scarring description just evokes in my mind the image of that hag from the 3.5 edition monster manual (admittedly it might be the night hag i am thinking about which is an outsider, but still a hag).


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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 09 Dec 2013 :  16:54:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I said, I think the proto-(PROTO)Pantheons weren't really so much like our modern view of them, but rather alliances amongst certain groups of gods, that may have come from all different backgrounds. Some may have been ascended mortals from the Creator Races, and some may have been Primordials, or even agents of higher beings (like fiends/celestials).

I can't see primitive peoples discounting gods of other peoples so easily (even the Romans didn't do that - they absorbed them). Why would early humans create their own 'nature deity', when there was one already available amongst the fey right next door?

I think what happened is, over time, exarchs (Chosen) were elevated by various powers to act on their behalf amongst different races, and in-time, those exarchs (ascended mortals) attained full godhood themselves. That means they may or may not still be subordinate to the original power they worked for. In fact, the same deity may be subordinate to different gods in different spheres, because each sphere is a different arena for these powers to play 'the great game'. It all comes down to the portfolios being held, not the god itself.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Dec 2013 16:56:06
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2013 :  00:04:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Sune likewise seems a very fey like deity.

She dwells with an elf (Hanali Celani) which i suspect all elves to have been fey primordials at one point.

She is rather aloof, rarely manifesting on the material plane.

She is listed as being a friendly rival with Hanali over who is more beautiful, humans or elves, but this could just be worshipper interpretation, and really the two goddesses are rivals over which of them is the more beautiful and it has nothing to do with their worshippers.

Her list of enemies include deities that are also probably fey in origin: Talos (otherwise known as Gruumsh), Auril, Umberlee (probably the only non fey in this list), Malar, Talona, Tempus (i picture seelie fey as devoting themselves solely to the perfection of an ideal so Tempus could have been a fey devoted to the perfection of war).

Anyway, its just a possibility, although the list of possible fey linked deities is now getting rather large, but then again the links with Toril and Faerie were incredibly strong in ancient times so that is probably why.





Sune is a deity whose origin will cause some "heated discussions" around here. Some people want her to be Venus renamed. Others think maybe she really is Hanali. Others think she might be fey like you say. Others think something entirely differently. Personally, I'm undecided.

On Tempus, personally, my preference is that Tempus is actually Tempus from the Thieve's World trilogy. He was a bloody mercenary who was plagued with being favored of a god named Vashanka. However, other war gods also favored him. He had a whole slew of novels about him, and he even visited our world <or a world much like ours> in one of them (which I'll chalk up to some time travel/planar mystery). I personally prefer that at some point he "ascended", because the persona is very similar. That's my personal take mind you, and I'm betting not many would like it.

If I had to pick a deity as definitely fey originating AND not likely to cause a lot of fuss... Leira, the goddess of lies and illusions. I'm not sure what kind of fey, but it definitely fits her persona.

Some folks might also get upset over this idea, given the dawn cataclysm and them wanting to be literal with it... but Beshaba also as an unseelie fey, stepping in possibly to take advantage of the death of Tyche would fit. Just her physical description kind of screams fey to me.

In all, I guess I'm seeing it more palatable that the non-multispheric deities might have these fey origins. By that statement, I mean less likely to upset the shared community.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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15724 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2013 :  00:35:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Fey deities (Seldarine, etc) and the Olympians all hangout in the same region of the Planes (Arborea), ergo, its not to much of a stretch if Hanali = Aphrodite, and thus Venus = Sune. We needn't choose one theory over another - all could be true.

Even when pantheons are not physically near each other some deities 'cross over'. When people see these 'different' gods (aspects) interacting, what they are really seeing is a god creating multiple avatars of itself - gods probably 'talk to themselves' all the time.

Some deities may be doing other things besides talking. For Sune, that would be the ultimate expression of narcissism.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2013 00:37:43
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 10 Dec 2013 :  10:52:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now Silvanus is an interesting one.

He is a nature god, which is typically the province of fey creatures and it would seem fey primordials that ascend to godhood.

However, Silvanus has a very different personality to the other fey like deities. He is nurturing, caring, and paternalistic to his worshippers, whereas fey like deities are either cruel and capricious towards their worshippers (for unseelie) or just aloof and uncaring (for seelie).

Also the fact that Silvanus is True Neutral seems bizarre and out of character for a fey. Typically the fey are about extremes of ideology rather than balance, so they are either lawful, chaotic, evil, or good (although none of those alignments mean anything to a fey since they are not thinking or acting in terms of morals).

All this points me to thinking Silvanus was not a fey. This doesnt necessarily mean he wasnt a primordial, but i havent seen anything to suggest that he was so far.

So that leaves ascended mortal, interloper deity (although even then i would prefer to know how he originally became a deity), cosmic entity, or something else.

Given his love of nature and connection with dryads (one of his holy days allows dryads to leave their trees for a day) i am thinking Silvanus was one of the very first druids in the realms. No idea what race that would make him, it would probably be some time before the days of thunder and so perhaps he was a member of the proto human race that existed back then.


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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 10 Dec 2013 :  11:01:40  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just noticed Silvanus has two distinct avatars. The Old Father and the Young Man.

Now to my mind that means Silvanus is a deity incorporating at least two separate deities into one being.

So The Old Father is Silvanus' face sprouting from trees, which speaks to me of Treants, so maybe Silvanus was a treant deity or treant primordial that ascended.

At some point when the other races come along he has merged with, or conquered, or subsumed the Young Strider.

Now this Young Strider sounds an awful lot like a typical druid, and so he probably was the first druid that ascended to godhood through worship and over time and confusion the two deities merged to form what we know no as Silvanus.

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Markustay
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Posted - 10 Dec 2013 :  13:16:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, another thread got me thinking about the elemental lords and primordials. There are just so many problems with 4e having made them primordials, but making them anything else doesn't make as much sense, within the new cosmology... or does it?

The following is all based upon my theory that the pre-Sundered Realms (circa -35+K DR) was really the first world - one enormous plane that encompassed the prime material.

What if primordials aren't as specific as we have been lead to believe? What if each of them is just a sentient chunk of the Elemental Maelstrom? They are living chunks of primal fury, encompassing all energies and elements. Thats would mean FR's elemental lords are more like 'false primordials'...

Which could actually be archfey.

If the Creatori (Creator races) rose up on this 'first world', then everything that happened there would trickle-down to all the D&D worlds. Thus, if a select group of Archfey (ascended fey) took on the portfolios of specific elements (and energies - we know Auril took 'cold'), then these 'elemental lords' would be known throughout the spheres (core), and be mistaken for primordials, because they are part of the 'old gods' - those deities that came into being on the First World.

That gives you yet-another tier - 'Old Gods' are the ones that arose before the world was Sundered. They would be the first of the ascended mortals, and incredibly powerful, ancient beings (but NOT primordials). I'd probably take a sprinkling of gods from other pantheons to ad to that tier (it could even replace my 'High God' tier in my own cosmology). Set, for instance, would also make a good candidate for 'Old God' (along with a few other beast-lords, like Lurue & Nobanion).

EDIT: Rather then say 'Old Gods', we could use the term Elohim, which sounds much cooler.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2013 13:19:25
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