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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 07:18:34
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Hi there,
I was just wndering about the description of food prices given in various books.
Wheat costs 1cp ( Arms and equipment guide, 3,5 as example )
FLOUR then costs 3gp, increase by 3000% in price.
Who the heck can afford to live with the average payments then, and the majority of normal citizens??
Looking forward to input.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 09:09:25
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| Aurora's Catalog from 2e was pretty much the best source for realms specific items/food stuffs. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 09:28:44
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Yes, but I think in there these numbers are only confirmed. I will check, though.
Just checked Auroras:
A pound of Wheat flour costs 3gp ( page 115 )
whereas
A Pound of Pork Bacon only 4gp ( page 118 )
A pound of Corned Beef also only costs 3 gp ( Page 118 )
This seems MORE than odd for me.
More surprisingly:
A , readily baked "Sourdough" bread ( Page 121 ) is sold at 15 sp and weights 2 lb.
I can only imagine this as a printing error in the books, it shouldbe 3sp at most, more likely even only 3cp per lb of flour.
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Edited by - Jakuta Khan on 29 Aug 2013 09:50:44 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 18:10:25
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The trouble is that there isn't a whole lot of readily-available research on the internet about price comparisons in the middle ages/early renaissance. For what it's worth, I did find a listing of bacon vs. flour prices in 1890, with bacon being a bit more than 4x as expensive per pound. Several other meats were priced similarly to bacon.
We had a fascinating discussion on the price of slaves here on the boards a year or so ago, where a bona fide scholar weighed in. Perhaps we'll get lucky again. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 20:08:16
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| Well I have done some research into pricing, the problem is with commodities the prices change each year based of minor things like drought, war, plague and so on. D&D is not well suited to dealing with such a more realistic pricing scale. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 20:56:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The trouble is that there isn't a whole lot of readily-available research on the internet about price comparisons in the middle ages/early renaissance. For what it's worth, I did find a listing of bacon vs. flour prices in 1890, with bacon being a bit more than 4x as expensive per pound. Several other meats were priced similarly to bacon.
We had a fascinating discussion on the price of slaves here on the boards a year or so ago, where a bona fide scholar weighed in. Perhaps we'll get lucky again.
LOL, I remember, for it was me to start it ;)
I would take that the costs per day and head are much more the costs for the "meals a day" sections in the various PHB of the editions.
Stating:
Normal meals: 3sp a day
Good meals: 5-6sp a day
Poor meals: 1sp a day |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 21:25:49
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Something you may not be considering: those listed prices in Aurora's catalog, and other sourcebooks, are prices for adventurers. Rich-looking adventurers, as well. Basic household supplies that we might get at a grocery store are often massively overpriced if you're essentially a tourist or "hotel guest" in other cities.
The baker/cook who lives in a village all their life (as well as everyday commoners) are going to get their flour, eggs, local fruits, vegatables, and so on directly from farmers that they personally know - and it will be at a much, much cheaper cost than what a storefront merchant, innkeeper, or tavern would charge a "traveling through" kind of guest (like adventurers).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 21:56:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Something you may not be considering: those listed prices in Aurora's catalog, and other sourcebooks, are prices for adventurers. Rich-looking adventurers, as well. Basic household supplies that we might get at a grocery store are often massively overpriced if you're essentially a tourist or "hotel guest" in other cities.
The baker/cook who lives in a village all their life (as well as everyday commoners) are going to get their flour, eggs, local fruits, vegatables, and so on directly from farmers that they personally know - and it will be at a much, much cheaper cost than what a storefront merchant, innkeeper, or tavern would charge a "traveling through" kind of guest (like adventurers).
While it is true that some prices are based for adventurers, the game does not worry all that much about NPCs that are always poorer.
To say that the price structure is based solely for adventurers fails, the Lord of the Local realm has to pay the same prices when a new enterprise is planned. Thus purchase of a warship by an adventurer would required black market pricing, not going to a ship yard.
Of course 3rd Edition introduced commodity having a fixed price on the farm and in the city.
Of course stranger (by dress you can not tell if visiting NPC or PC after all) in town being charged more has been reported and prices did drop for those that stayed in same area longer then somebody marked as a tourist that was to be overcharged. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 23:38:34
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| Another thing to consider when dealing with prices for basic staples for the locals versus prices for adventurers (or out of town merchants) is that coinage is something most common folk don't need to use when dealing with other common folk for staple goods in the countryside. Barter is the trade currency of choice. So, these prices are automatically somewhat inflated for requiring coinage in the first place! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 07:39:58
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i was meaning the general price of flour for example.
at even just half the price of the listed, the average cost for a human to feed wouldbe over 3gp.
with the price given, a balanced diet costs about 5gp a day.
that is what find ridiculously high.
example:
i have a character wanting to start a mining expedicion into the wild. not considering anything else, which of course he has to but we r talking here about food pricings, at the prices given and a mix of bread (flour) bacon beans and some dried fruits - hard working men need good food - the food for a single man or woman would cost him
5,5 gp per day.
adding this up for 70 people, it would mean he has to pay 11.000 gp for food and month. that was why i said there has to be an error.
all the books, 2nd editin phb, sword & fist etc. state the daily costs for food per head are:
5sp for a decent diet
3sp fkr common diet
1sp fkr a poor diet.
that is, even taking the highest option, only 10% of the number above. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:11:17
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| It's D&D economics at its finest. Still, it's been a fun thought experiment. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:01:02
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It's not unlikely that different sources contradict each other, having been written by different authors. There is also no guarantee any one author was correct in their pricing knowledge, either in relation to established or more logical pricing or by their knowledge of pseudo-medieval economics. I would suggest sticking by the most logical prices and extrapolate from there.
On the other hand, if wheat costs 1 cp and flour then costs 3 gp for a 3000 fold increase, by default millers will be some of the richest people in such pseudo-medieval settings. Perhaps they're an unscrupulous monopolistic conglomerate who has enslaved the local peasantry to produce wheat for them at a pittance while raising their prices sky-high on the vital staple of flour. The peasants can then hire adventurers to revolt against the Miller Lords by conducting raids on their Mill Towers. Perhaps Don Quixote was onto something about windmills being giants. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:32:21
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| Actually some Lords outlawed the use of hand grist mills use by peasants, requiring all to have their grain processed by the Lord's mill at a charge of course. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
While it is true that some prices are based for adventurers, the game does not worry all that much about NPCs that are always poorer.
Actually, except in rare cases where you're looking at a very specific sourcebook, prices are always what adventurers would pay. What else would it be?
quote:
To say that the price structure is based solely for adventurers fails, the Lord of the Local realm has to pay the same prices when a new enterprise is planned. Thus purchase of a warship by an adventurer would required black market pricing, not going to a ship yard.
This argument really doesn't stand. In medieval times and even much of the Renaissance, commoners and locals would barter for basics and staples. Stability of pricing, where money exchange was involved, was -often- subject to price gouging by merchants of the wealthy or even upper-middle classes. Haggling was common and expected. High lords might be seriously price-gouged by other nobles who owned things the High Lord didn't, so negotiation and favor-swapping (sometimes selling of titles) was par for the course. Prices of "big ticket" items varied tremendously, based on what you could offer to the seller/merchant or noble.
Trade pricing was somewhat stabilized by guild controls, and you'd see the effects of that trickle down through smaller cities, villages and towns. But again, not always. If you had a guild with a monopoly over a certain thing, you can absolutely bet that they'll use that monopoly to improve profit.
quote:
Of course 3rd Edition introduced commodity having a fixed price on the farm and in the city.
I didn't know this. If you don't mind my asking, what sourcebook?
quote:
Of course stranger (by dress you can not tell if visiting NPC or PC after all) in town being charged more has been reported and prices did drop for those that stayed in same area longer then somebody marked as a tourist that was to be overcharged.
Absolutely yes. The more local and fixed one became in the process of settling somewhere, it would help over time in terms of making better deals. But at the end of the day, I'd still argue that someone walking around who looked like they had money would often get charged a lot more for the same products or services.
With everyday basics and staples, I'd argue that part of hiring a cook or chef means that -they're- going to go out and do the buying and haggling on foodstuffs for the employer or lord. They still might be price-gouged a little, but not as badly as if the adventurer or noble himself walked up and wanted something. Give a merchant any excuse at all to inflate a price (regional drought, pestilence, importing over long distances, rarity of item locally) and they will.
So if you see a massive discrepancy in pricing for flour or sugar, let's say: 3gp per pound in Aurora's vs. 10sp per pound in a manual that talks about hirelings and their costs, I don't really see that much of a problem. It reflects the serious price gouging that would happen if Khelben wandered into Aurora's and asked for a bag of flour instead of him sending one of his kitchen staff to go buy it. That's precisely why lords and nobles, and even many well-known merchants constantly operate through their agents and hirelings to buy things (often secretly).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 30 Aug 2013 19:04:35 |
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Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 00:08:13
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It can be expected that prices would fluctuate wildly depending on the region, the season, the political clime, the scarcity of the good, the seller's mood, the apparent wealth (and identity/reputation) of the buyer... For example, my D&D party had been adventuring in the Underdark recently. You can imagine the pain of the ranger attempting to replenish his supply of arrows while in Blingdenstone! Can the monk acquire herself a new wooden quarterstaff? Probably - but how many ribs is she willing to pay for it? Similarly, all that interesting drow loot we picked up off the bodies of our enemies might sell well... in places it won't vanish in the sunlight.
Considering all of those variables is quite fun and adds a great deal of flavor to the game, yes. But I think it begs the more fundamental question... do we look to the source material such as Aurora's as a DMing tool (here is what Aurora found to be the 'general' case for item cost, all else being equal... no sudden droughts to cause grain shortages or arboreal pests that destroy good hardwood trees), or is it only a subjective guide? The latter, while more flavorful, is less immediately useful to the player or DM! After all, these prices could be the whims of so many different circumstances, and therefore, we may as well not have prices at all. But if we assume the former, why, it's an odd world in which meat costs so little more than flour! Or flour costs so dramatically much more than wheat.
(One would think that a rich adventurer would get marked up on all commodities... the flour as well as the wheat; the pork as well as the flour. It would explain the high prices, but not the odd ratio between different prices.)
So in the end I think the original question really remains an interesting one. I suppose it remains up to us, as the beneficiaries of Aurora's cataloging work, to determine what that work really represents. Average costs of staple goods across the Realms? Or the costs an experienced adventurer such as cataloged it might be expected to encounter?
We can't have it both ways. Either the prices are objective (and odd) or they are subjective (and their value, as sheer source material, requires extensive interpretation! Not necessarily in itself a bad thing, at all. The best material does.)
Indeed, I will say, this is one thing I love so much about a good deal of Realms source material. Information is relayed subjectively, leaving us, who would likewise wander in that world, to puzzle out for ourselves with exactly how much of our gold we are willing to be parted! |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
Edited by - Karyl on 31 Aug 2013 00:10:28 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 00:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
example:
i have a character wanting to start a mining expedicion into the wild. not considering anything else, which of course he has to but we r talking here about food pricings, at the prices given and a mix of bread (flour) bacon beans and some dried fruits - hard working men need good food - the food for a single man or woman would cost him
5,5 gp per day.
adding this up for 70 people, it would mean he has to pay 11.000 gp for food and month. that was why i said there has to be an error.
all the books, 2nd editin phb, sword & fist etc. state the daily costs for food per head are:
5sp for a decent diet
3sp fkr common diet
1sp fkr a poor diet.
that is, even taking the highest option, only 10% of the number above.
Many of the source material also states that the weekly or monthly hire fee includes cost of food and board. The one that stands out best are guards for a castle, pay rates for mounted being a cost higher for mounted troop then a footman, even though both have same level of experience.
If any looks back over the last fews years on me you all might find that D&D economics does not work well at all and never did do so well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 15:06:36
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Yeah,that it what i thought as well.
So I do think that five silver pieces per day and head should do.
Even if you say it is 5sp per meal, it is still way more reasonable. |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 16:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Yeah,that it what i thought as well.
So I do think that five silver pieces per day and head should do.
Even if you say it is 5sp per meal, it is still way more reasonable.
Here, you could almost say it's comparable to what really happens with people that only eat and never prepare their own food at home.
Take someone eating Subway $5 footlongs morning, noon, and night. Even if you are going without drinks, you are still spending a minimum of $15 on prepared food.
Now, if you would have bought $15 of raw chicken, and a loaf of bread, you can eat some meals for up to 3 days.
But adventurers don't have time for cookin'! It's time to hit the trails, follow some maps, and delve some dungeons! |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 19:24:15
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| Here is the slave pricing scroll mentioned above, for those who are interested: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17757 |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Food Pricings in the realms
