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 Playing a pirate. Need sailing advice.
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  02:27:33  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So we are playing a pirate campaign and my character has two brigantines at the moment. Now i've tried to research ships and nautical terms as best I can. But frankly there is no better source of information than from the horses mouth. So what I'm looking for is anyone with some sailing knowledge or a good knowledge of ships to take a look at my ship and tell me if something seems out of place. Basically i don't feel as though the amount of cargo she is capable of holding is correct. My research tells me its actually more than what i have here. Also, check out the map of the ships layout and consider the size of the ship and type. Do you think my layout is too big for the ship class? Or would this brigantine actually be more akin to a brig via her length, hold and gun deck? Also one more question, in the game we dry docked her in Raven's Bluff and had the gun deck added on. My question there is, would a ship of this size be capable of having a gun deck built, or would the cannons simply be on the top deck?

Otherwise, if there is something out of place in the realm of 'realism' please let me know as to the best of your knowledge.

** Also, I recently posted the ships details and character sheet on another board. (Your most memorable character) I hope this doesn't go against forum rules being that its so long. I do not mean to spam or repeat a posting. But I didn't feel like I would get any feed back on that board about the ship itself.

--------------------------------------------
Brigantine: "The Black Gull" - Two-masted sailing ship with square rigging on the foremast and fore-and-aft rigging on the mainmast
Aft Castle
four deck (Top Deck, Gun Deck, Living Deck and Cargo)
110 foot Brigantine. Two mast square sails. Aft castle.
Bow: Black sea-gull in flight
Crew Capacity:15 to 25
Hold Capacity: 25 tons (50,000 lbs)
20,816 lbs of total cargo aboard ='s 29,184 lbs remaining
Current Draft: Nearly half
Flag: A field of white with a black seagull in flight

The Black Gull Floor Plan
http://i41.tinypic.com/kd2vid.jpg

BG1: Common Deck - Two masted
BG2: Forward Bow deck
(Two 4 lb swivel guns, 19 ball shots, 9 loads of powder, 9 fuses)
BG3: Aft deck, Helm
BG4: Boarding planks (8 - 4 X 18)
BG5: Bow (Wooden Black Seagull carving)
BG6: Captain's Quarters - Aft Castle (Bed, Table, Chairs) (Turel's Cabin)
Hanging along the wall is a oil painting of a women holding a smoking pot
Hanging along the wall is a Scimitar with a black handle and gold flecking
Tiger skin rug in center of cabin
Raptor Skin hanging on wall with 2 talons
- Personal Chest 1
LOCKED: Excellent lock
TRAPPED: Spring loaded needle (Sv Vs poison 'Hassock poison')
2,089 GP, 65 SP
Hillsfar Captain's Log
Hassocks case (3 vials of liquid)
Slavers book
Black velvet bag #1 - 77,800 GP worth of yellow diamonds (1556 total worth 50 GP each)
Black velvet bag #2 - 11,450 GP worth of Cintrines (458 total worth 25 GP each)
18 tiger agats - worth 30 GP each
- Trunk #1
67,089 GP
- Trunk #2
10,600 SP
- Personal chest 2
350 GP, 20 ft of fishing line, fly fishing lure, 10 light crossbow quarrels, Hacksaw,
Metal File, Funnel, small (brass with steel mesh covering), Leather strap (pair)
Charcoal bundle, Grappling Iron, Climbing Spikes (8),
Crowbar, Lock Chisels (set of 3), 6 Silver Fox furs, 5 bars of lavender soap, 2 kings tear earrings, 9 Black Pearls worth 100 GP each,
- Desk
6 poisoned light Crossbow quarrels (poisoned 1 use each - SV for 11dmg/0dmg)
Scroll tube - (Privateer documents of merit, Seals of guild memberships X2)
Tobacco bag (1/2 oz of Tobacco), 8 oz of long bottom leaf
- Small box
Two black handled flintlock pistols with 4 ball shots
- Armoire
Aquamarine silk sash, Dark blue velvet breeches 'boot cut', High leather boots rivetted with gold, Fancy leather belt with silver buckle, High leather boots with silver buckles, 3 white linen under shirts, 3 dark blue leather over coats with maroon embroidery, Blue cloak with gold trimmings, 3 silk dresses,
Sembian merchant flag
Cormyrian merchant flag
Raven's Bluff merchant flag
Mulmaster flag
Jolly Roger Flag (Black with white seagull)
BG7: Stairs to lower decks
BG8: Gun Deck
9 '12 lb' light cannons (500 lbs each)
27 ball rounds
27 grapeshot rounds
77 powder loads
77 flint locks and fuses
BG9: First Mate's Cabin (Bed, Desk, Cabinet, armoire, nightstand)
BG10: Surgeon's Cabin (Bed, Desk, Cabinet, armoire, nightstand)
BG11: Sailing Master's Cabin (Bed, nightstand, armoire, drafting desk, Water Clock)
Master Cartography kit, Master map making kit, sextant, Master Navigator kit,
Scroll tube (Star charts), Compass (Directional), Hand held weather vain, Hour Glass, 4 maps (Bay of sentia, good map of the Moonsea, X2 Moonsea Starcharts), 40 sheets of partchment,
Hudson's Personal Chest
Light Crossbow, 10 quarrels, Toiletries (comb, soap), Fiddle, Fiddle strings, Fiddle tuning equipment, 377 GP, 45 SP, 1 PP, 1 Yellow Diamond worth 50 GP, 1 Cintrine worth 25 GP, 1 Tigers Eye Agate worth 30 GP, 1 Short Sword
BG12: Boarding Master cabin (Bed, nightstand, armoire)
Glamdrick's Chest
400 Tribal EP
BG13: Carpenter's Cabin (Bed, nightstand, armoire)
Al-y's personal chest
227 GP, 45 SP, 1 PP, 1 Yellow Diamond worth 50 GP, 1 Cintrine worth 25 GP, 1 Tigers Eye Agate worth 30 GP, 1 Short Sword
BG14: Cabin (Bed, nightstand, armoire)
BG15: Cabin (Bed, nightstand, armoire)
BG16: Galley - Dinning table with bench seats
BG17: Galley storage
1 weeks prepared food stores ready for cooking, 40 lbs of Potatoes, 20 lbs of Radishes
BG18: Galley kitchen
All necessary cooking equipment (pots, pans, dishware, kettle), 2 weeks firewood, Flint & Steel, 10 lbs coal, 20 starting tinder bags
BG19: Sailors Cabin (28 bunks)
BG20: Forward Cargo Hold (Brig)
15 shackles
BG21: Main cargo hold
3 tuns of Rum, 40 lbs of tobacco, soap rations (20), 10 lbs rice, 10 lbs grains, 1 tun of Brown Ale, 305 lbs of Oats
4 suits of leather armor, black leather grieves, black leather bracers, 14 spears, 9 short bows, 1 Composite Long bow, 1 Long sword, 1 Gording Axe, 1 whip fixed with steel blade, 8 quivers, 230 flight arrows, 16 sheaf arrows, 6 short swords, 10 daggers, 4 whips
2 weeks sailing food store including water
3 chickens (hens) in cages, 1 goats, 60 lbs of oats, 30 lbs of seed, 4 bales of hay
2 tons of food stores and water, 7 Raptor skins, 14 Raptor claws
BG22: Aft cargo hold
Rigging gear, extra sail, pulleys, stitching, patches, 1 tun of tar, 1 tuns of oil, 1 crate of nails, hammers, saws, 1 tun of glue, 1 tune of black powder, Master Carpenters Kit
BG23: Rudder exchange

"Beware the Dream Fever!"

Edited by - Cbad285 on 21 Aug 2013 02:30:41

Kentinal
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4684 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  10:20:58  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had looked at your post, one of your few views. I of course looked again at your edit.

In some ways your ship might be too modern for the Realms, those swivel cannon for example.

Looking at 2nd Edition PHB, cargo space should not be a problem.

quote:
Knarr: This small ship was a common cargo ship of the Scandinavian region. It is 50 to 75 feet long and 15 to 20 feet wide. It has a single mast and a square sail. In times of poor wind, a few oars at the bow and stern can provide more power. The crew ranges from eight to 14 men. The cargo capacity is small, anywhere from ten to 50 tons. The ship is, however, relatively seaworthy and can be used to make long sea voyages (although it cannot be called comfortable). Its flat bottom makes it useful for sailing up rivers and estuaries, and it can be beached easily.

Longship: This is the standard Viking warship. It is more substantial than the knarr but not nearly as massive as the drakkar. An average longship is 75 feet long with 20 to 25 oars per side. Each oar is worked by a single man for a total crew of 40 to 50 men. There is also a single mast and a square sail. In addition to the crew, the ship can carry 120 to 150 men. A longship can be used for shipping, but its cargo capacity is only about 50 tons. It is, however, fairly seaworthy and can sail across the open sea when necessary.


Being too examples, the larger ships listed have greater cargo capacity up to 500 tons.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  10:26:21  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the matter of being 'modern' our dm has added black powder, cannons and flint lock pistols to the world. He's also pushed the year of the campaign to the 15th century. Even still, a couple hundred years from modern occurrence of guns and cannons, his reasoning being the realms offers magic to push the time frame of these inventions. We've also had black powder in our games since early 1350's so it wasn't such a long shot. pardon the pun.

**Edit**

My research has a Brigantine (being slightly smaller than a brig class) at somewhere around 200+tons but it ranges. I can't find a standard weight for the ships class. Do you mean that a Brigantine has the capacity for 500tons?

"Beware the Dream Fever!"

Edited by - Cbad285 on 21 Aug 2013 10:30:34
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  10:41:28  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Galleons reached 500 tons. Brigantines more likely fall in the about 250 Tons range plus or minus about 25.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 21 Aug 2013 10:48:35
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  10:43:13  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
word

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  10:51:08  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I worked on the one word, the Brigantine of course has a history of change, small to bigger, change of sail configuration as well.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2013 :  11:27:19  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At this point I'm going to have to talk to my DM and make him aware that the character's ship is more akin to a Brig, not a Brigantine, considering the size and number of crew he has me sailing with. He's under the impression they are the same thing, and they are obviously not.

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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rjfras
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261 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2013 :  00:02:41  Show Profile  Visit rjfras's Homepage Send rjfras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
have you checked out Stormwrack? it is a 3.5 book that deals with ships as far as speeds, cargo, size, etc as well as alot on sailing such as water hazards, perils, navigation, combat plus more. it also has prestige classes, monsters, magic items, spells, how classes work on a ship as far as things they might be good at, etc....
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Hoondatha
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USA
2449 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2013 :  00:05:10  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Same thing for the 2e book Of Ships and the Sea.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2013 :  00:23:14  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
didnt know there was a book for 2e on ships. word again.

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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Razz
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USA
749 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2013 :  03:12:53  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Canons have been in the Realms since even the 1200s D.R. It's been noted as such in the "Grand History of the Realms" on page 126.

"First recorded use of bombards by Lantan." in 1246 D.R.

By the 1370s I am sure canons were made and used. They're not widespread, though. Still rare items and extremely expensive to the point where it's almost not worth it. In one of the Drizz't novels they encountered a ship with a canon I believe.
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TBeholder
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2378 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2013 :  06:25:25  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Non-mechanical artillery and supplies come from Gondsmen (Lantan) and spelljamming smugglers community or Red Wizards (Pirate Isles).
"Usual" smokepowder weapons and smokepowder itself is supplied by the same sources; Lantan at least is reliable, if remote. Either way there's an oligopoly and you can expect prices set accordingly. Shou make smokepowder, of course, but its stability is somewhat suspect, especially given that they don't use powder artillery.
Red Wizard version comes in format of Big Fugly Bombards - these things are not mobile, hurl hideously destructive (mainly explosive/incendiary) mageshot and (according to some sources) use liquid propellant. Prices, naturally, are fully monopolistic, i.e. equal whatever Red Wizards think pirates of Fallen Stars can fork out for safety of their main base.

From less-core-FR materials, see also Al-Qadim box "Corsairs of the Great Sea" (TSR#9449), it was free on Wizards' site, so find links or use Wayback Machine.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 27 Aug 2013 06:30:15
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BlackAce
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United Kingdom
358 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2013 :  21:31:22  Show Profile Send BlackAce a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Black Gull looks fine. The only things I'd note are that 4lbs is quite a heavy shot for a swivel gun and 12lb cannons are far too heavy for such a small ship, 6 lbs is more what a Brigantine could handle. Lastly, 25 men is far too small a crew for a ship that size, you should probably double it. 12pdrs need a crew of 5 each to operate effectively (though you don't need to man both broadsides) and you'd need at least 24 men to handle rigging; 14 top men and 10 deck hands. Throw in 2-3 lookouts, 2 helmsmen, 2 carpenters, a bo's'un then double it for two watches.

Edited by - BlackAce on 27 Aug 2013 21:32:18
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2013 :  09:51:45  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blackace, I certainly agree with your assessment of the caliber of weapons on the ship. 4lb swivel guns from what I've learned should be more like 2lb guns. And the 12lb guns should definitely be lighter. I haven't decided on what wt I should go with. In-Game we have spent a good amount of time updating the gun deck, and with this posting we have changed the class of the ship(s) to Brigs from Brigantines since the the layout for the ships have come about to be a little larger than your traditional brigantines. I'm thinking 8lb guns, but will need some research to back this up with my DM.
I would definitely be interested in more information on crew sizes for a brig.

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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BlackAce
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 29 Aug 2013 :  20:34:15  Show Profile Send BlackAce a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A Brig would only require a slightly larger crew than a Brigantine (or Snow) as she has two square rig masts instead of a Trysail so probably around 30 sailors rather than 24. Other than that it's all much the same. :)
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