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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 18:11:40
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MY prime issue with this landmass situation and what mundane creatures should live where, is a matter of geological events.
Earth's current species are results of geologic separations and mass extinctions. Meurobboros (SP?) was the Pangea equivalent. Scientifically, on Faerun the tectonic plates are moving like lightning, because in about 10,000 years meuroborros made the spread that earth continents made from Pangea in 270 million years. With plates moving that fast nothing has a chance to evolve. In fact it seems the FR is extremely young; grand history states the history starts at -35K DR. Now what came before? Well the creator races were there, but humanity on earth is even longer lived as a species than the elves on Faerun.
SO much of this is why I hate bringing arbitrary science into fantasy. It just does not work as a whole. I do not apply this to basic science, that works as it does on the earth, but our concept of evolution, ecosystems, biology, chemistry, that is all out of the window.
Dragons have solid bones and are flying.
Giant Insects can exist on land.
Giant kind can stand with no strain.
Dragons are said to be reptiles yet have all the metabolical results in their muscle structure of Warm bloods (Notice lizard legs do not support like Warm blooded creatures, they cannot through their metabolism generate the force to hold the weight for long periods like mammals can.)
Any attempt to make the realms scientifically feasable is folly. I think that the hesitation to place marsupials smack in the middle of Cormyr, is a narrow minded one (No offense to anyone please, and I personally do not include marsupials in alot of areas), because we have no problem placing Asian, European, African, North American, and South American Fauna and Flora right next to each other. Why is Australian Fauna out of place then? Because they give live birth but cannot carry young to term? Marsupials and monotremes should be placed anywhere the DM desires. The characteristics of monsters nullify any logic when debating where our monotreme and marsupial mammals should be placed.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 05 Aug 2013 18:14:15
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 18:18:23
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Ok this was meant as a reply to the marsupial thread. I suck at forums.
Still as a scientist, one of my pet peeves has always been the arbitrary application of science. I am somewhat hypocritical in this because I do not allow Anime physics in my game, indeed I can barely tolerate watching it for the physics. I do notice a lot of developers feel the need to 'explain' monsters scientifically, and they do such a terrible job at it, that it would be better left alone. Paizo is especially guilty of this. I love them but alot of their 'scientific' explanations make me cringe.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 18:24:16
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| I was wondering where the seemingly random rant was coming from. You are right, of course, science in fantasy is subject to severe logic failure. I guess it's a by-product of our scientific society that we seek to explain fantasy in scientific terms. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 19:10:02
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Mournblade,
About the time issue, you may note that creationist scientists believe the tectonic plates move way faster than what's generally accepted. Of course, some don't accept evolution at all, but most accept evolution in a smaller scale (natural selection differing species within some pre-existing genera or families, at most). In a world of divine powers, this could be an alternative. As for your statement about giants, giant animals and dragons, there's no explanation but magic, for sure.
Besides, I do tend to use only eurasian animals in Faerūn, not mixing them with north-american (or somewhere else's) animals, and I even try to limit regionally-specific mythical creatures, having mummies and sphinxes more restricted to Mulhorandi, for example. I know Faerūn is not Earth, but i chose to do this to have different creatures and cultures in each place. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 19:16:11
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quote:
About the time issue, you may note that creationist scientists believe the tectonic plates move way faster than what's generally accepted.
Believing something doesn't make it true, however, and a "creationist scientist" isn't a scientist. I see where you're coming from with "a world of divine powers" but still... brrr. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 01:15:46
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| The main reason I posted the marsupials thread was to see if there were any documented cases of marsupials (I honestly didn't expect to find any except for possibly an opossum). That being said, as I was writing it, I was tickled with the idea of halflings and various marsupials for some reason... and given that Lurien and the Shaar are near another... I honestly wouldn't be too surprised to find marsupials in the Shaar... even dire marsupials that could serve as mounts. How would I scientifically explain it away? I wouldn't. Magic does wondrous things.... and so does nature. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 04:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Mournblade,
About the time issue, you may note that creationist scientists believe the tectonic plates move way faster than what's generally accepted. Of course, some don't accept evolution at all, but most accept evolution in a smaller scale (natural selection differing species within some pre-existing genera or families, at most). In a world of divine powers, this could be an alternative. As for your statement about giants, giant animals and dragons, there's no explanation but magic, for sure.
Besides, I do tend to use only eurasian animals in Faerūn, not mixing them with north-american (or somewhere else's) animals, and I even try to limit regionally-specific mythical creatures, having mummies and sphinxes more restricted to Mulhorandi, for example. I know Faerūn is not Earth, but i chose to do this to have different creatures and cultures in each place.
Agreed. Other than you only using Eurasian fauna, I pretty much keep to cultural equivalents like yourself.
As to the plate tectonics, I agree it is moving through divine constructs. I spend alot of time online correcting creationism and there are many sects of the creationist mythologists who do not think the continents were ever in other places.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 04:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The main reason I posted the marsupials thread was to see if there were any documented cases of marsupials (I honestly didn't expect to find any except for possibly an opossum). That being said, as I was writing it, I was tickled with the idea of halflings and various marsupials for some reason... and given that Lurien and the Shaar are near another... I honestly wouldn't be too surprised to find marsupials in the Shaar... even dire marsupials that could serve as mounts. How would I scientifically explain it away? I wouldn't. Magic does wondrous things.... and so does nature.
Exactly. There is no need to explain anything scientifically in faerun. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 12:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Believing something doesn't make it true, however, and a "creationist scientist" isn't a scientist. I see where you're coming from with "a world of divine powers" but still... brrr.
Beware of scientific fundamentalism... As famous scientists believed in God and creation in the past (like Newton), there are religious men that are scientists nowadays and that resort to science to explain what can be explained through it, but resort to faith to those issues that go beyond science's limitations. Of course, this is a delicate issue, in which respect for each other's postures is essential. 
Edit: And yes, when I was saying that those scientists believe tectonic plates move faster than it's believed, I was talking about RW creationists, who also believe our dating methods can be wrong (they question it scientifically). But of course, in a "world of divine powers" it fits perfectly. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 06 Aug 2013 12:44:28 |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 15:11:23
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| I'd like to discuss the topic but I fear it could derail this thread quickly so I'll just say that we agree that in a world of divine powers, things can happen just as an author/gamemaster sees fit (after all, "divine powers" = magic anyway); I am not sure what dangers are inherent in scientific fundamentalism to beware, unless you mean to say I sounded like it in my post. However, I *must* say that creationists do not question dating methods scientifically - they just question it because they want it to fit their silly worldview. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 17:08:19
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My intention was only for the way you sounded, yes, and I believe there are creationists and creationists, as there are evolutionists and evolutionists. Creationists are not always silly and tendencious, as you stated (and calling all like this is kind of disrespecting, once again), but then again, this is not the thread for this discussion.
As for divine powers or magic influencing fauna and flora, I've posted another info in the marsupials thread, it is going in a nice way. But yes, the deities and the creator races, transmuters (like Duhlark Kolat) and magical events as the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague do affect the world by bringing into existence new creatures, who are subject to natural selection. I've read somewhere about extinct species in the Realms, this could even be the topic for another thread (or is there one already?). I think 2e Draconomicon also cites proto-draconic forms and the reasons why they don't exist anymore. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 17:40:16
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Yes, let's please not go any further into the discussion of real-world topics such as creationism and science. I, personally, get more than enough of that just on my Facebook wall. 
Though it is valid to note that in a fictitious world, the truth may lie anywhere between the two viewpoints. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 19:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Believing something doesn't make it true, however, and a "creationist scientist" isn't a scientist. I see where you're coming from with "a world of divine powers" but still... brrr.
Beware of scientific fundamentalism... As famous scientists believed in God and creation in the past (like Newton), there are religious men that are scientists nowadays and that resort to science to explain what can be explained through it, but resort to faith to those issues that go beyond science's limitations. Of course, this is a delicate issue, in which respect for each other's postures is essential.
Edit: And yes, when I was saying that those scientists believe tectonic plates move faster than it's believed, I was talking about RW creationists, who also believe our dating methods can be wrong (they question it scientifically). But of course, in a "world of divine powers" it fits perfectly.
The creationists questioning of helium dating has been thoroughly debunked. Their concerns have been well addressed. That is not to say that scientists cannot be men of faith. Creationsism is not a respected viewpoint in the scientific community. Its only merits if any are philosophical. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 19:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Believing something doesn't make it true, however, and a "creationist scientist" isn't a scientist. I see where you're coming from with "a world of divine powers" but still... brrr.
Beware of scientific fundamentalism... As famous scientists believed in God and creation in the past (like Newton), there are religious men that are scientists nowadays and that resort to science to explain what can be explained through it, but resort to faith to those issues that go beyond science's limitations. Of course, this is a delicate issue, in which respect for each other's postures is essential.
Edit: And yes, when I was saying that those scientists believe tectonic plates move faster than it's believed, I was talking about RW creationists, who also believe our dating methods can be wrong (they question it scientifically). But of course, in a "world of divine powers" it fits perfectly.
The creationists questioning of helium dating has been thoroughly debunked. Their concerns have been well addressed. That is not to say that scientists cannot be men of faith. Creationsism is not a respected viewpoint in the scientific community. Its only merits if any are philosophical. All of the 'science' tehy use to question the dating has been proven wrong.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 19:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes, let's please not go any further into the discussion of real-world topics such as creationism and science. I, personally, get more than enough of that just on my Facebook wall.
Though it is valid to note that in a fictitious world, the truth may lie anywhere between the two viewpoints.
Indeed despite my debunking of creationism in the real world I use it as the primary mechanism of genesis in the FR.
Sorry I made my response before i read your message.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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On Fauna and flora
