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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 17:18:12
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I haven't kept up with 4e. I gather from other scribes that the official story is that Lathander is an aspect of Amaunator. I see them as totally different personalities, so I offer this alternative view: what if they're two completely separate entities?
Amon was a "Duke of Hell" serving Geryon in 1e AD&D. There's nothing in his description (Monster Manual II) about light or golden colors or wrestling or lawmaking, but we probably wouldn't have to look too far for precedents of demons/devils making a show of power among primitive peoples in the interest of gaining followers, or pretending to be gods just to peeve the real gods.
I'm not trying to suggest that any of this is canon in any way.
Suppose Amon is a high muckymuck among the devils. Second to the Lord of the Fifth. Suppose he knew what the demons and other devils who played at being godlings were up to, and decided that there was something to be gained from it. Maybe he had a rivalry with Graz'zt or Gargauth; who knows; doesn't matter what his precise reason was. Suppose he made a show of power among the humans of Seventon, calling himself Amon...ator. He's probably devilishly devious, but there's no rule saying he has to be creative.
As Seventon grows into Netheril, then, he periodically makes appearances and does dramatic things. A cult grows, the way it always seems to. It's reasonable that most of his powers/spells involve fire. A god of heat isn't very appealing, however, since the people are predominantly farmers, and if they really wanted a god of fire Kossuth is already available. So, in the interest of filling a needed role, Amon tweaks his facade a bit and becomes the Netherese god of the sun, light, and probably various relevant things. Humans are short-lived creatures, and over a few brief generations while his cult is still building itself a foothold, he could change his appearance and apparent powers without anyone taking notice.
As Netheril turns into an empire, more tweaks occur in the cult of Amaunator. He (or rather his following) takes on the role of justice and lawmaking. Amon himself finds this delicious; it's not antithetical to his nature at all. Justice is Lawful, but not necessarily Good. Amon is Lawful-Evil... the shoe fits.
When Netheril falls, so does the cult of Amaunator. However, since Amaunator was never a god, he doesn't shrivel up and fall off his throne into the Astral Plane like the scholars expect him to. He does lose interest in the Realms for a bit, because building his cult took centuries and it was tedious work. Maybe the payoff failed to live up to his expectations, so starting over and building a new cult for himself in another land is not terribly important to him.
He does, however, want to keep a finger on the pulse of the land where his cult flourished. So he sends a couple of agents into the Bedine tribes who arrive in Anauroch shortly after the fall of Netheril. These agents start building him a new cult. The Bedine are very different from the Netherese, however; they already have some religious traditions, and they're far more poetically inclined than the Netherese were. The Bedine don't have a space in their pantheon for a male god of the sun. They do, however, have an opening for a vengeful woman opposed to the male god of the night. Amon takes it, and his name is shortened to At'ar.
Amon doesn't care too much about what happens to the Bedine, which fits marvelously well with his new role as a vindictive witch; the people don't expect him to care about them, or do anything for them. His cult, however, grows and spreads across the desert... and eventually becomes known to the wider Realms.
Scholars promptly note the similarity between "At'ar" and "Amaunator" and put forth the theory that the Bedine goddess of the unforgiving sun was once the Netherese god of justice and the predictable warm sunrise. Faerun already has a god of the sun and light and the lifegiving warmth that farmers' fields depend on... Lathander. Scholars also note this, and suggest a link between them; perhaps Lathander is a son... no, a former servant, of Amaunator. Yes, that has the ring of authenticity to it.
At some point, Amon notices that his cult is expanding. Suddenly there are more people calling on his assumed name, and their voices are stronger than the Bedine... almost as if Netheril has returned. So he opens an eye onto Faerun once more, and finds that his servants are not calling from Netheril (although there is something happening there too) but from the greener lands to the south. His cult has found its way out of the desert, and is spreading like a cancer across the land. Even more pleasantly, they're doing it without his help.
However, Amon finds cause for concern. There is considerable doubt among the so-called learned folk of the Realms regarding his continued existence. Apparently some are spreading tales that since his "church" died he must be a rock floating in the Astral Plane, and his cult must be drawing their power from somewhere else. This has created some confusion between him and some disgusting godwhelp named Lathander. The idea that a god might absorb and benefit from his cult is beyond unacceptable. Destroying Lathander directly isn't an option; he has too many allies, and he's basically surrounded by them at all times. No, the solution is more devious.
Amon quickly comes up with a two-pronged plan. (Once again, simplicity.) The first step is to declare his own power and make sure that people know he is very... much... alive. An investment of power will accomplish that... there, now there's a miniature sun floating over a human city. No priest of Lathander has ever done anything as dramatic as creating a permanent sun; this will get everyone's attention and create questions regarding the relative power of Amaunator and Lathander. Some will continue to believe that they're the same god, and this serves Amon's interest because the second step of his plan is to have his followers swallow the church of Lathander. People should believe either that Lathander is merely a new face of Amaunator, or that Amaunator is more powerful.
In time, Lathander will be nothing more than a shriveled husk in the Astral Plane.
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 18:52:06
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| Hmm I ...really don't see this happening . I would find it more logical that Kossuth was doing all this rather then amon. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 18:58:18
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| Fact is that some people were arguing that Amaunator would be Amon. This would be Amon-Ra, the egyptian god of the Sun. However, since Amon was a pagan God, he was also seen as a fiend, and in an early edition of the game he was portrayed as a Duke of Hell. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:21:37
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To each their own; myself, I find it very unlikely that Kossuth would do this. His interest lies solely in elemental flame; some cultures stretch it to include the destruction or purification that come from exposure to fire, but I don't recall seeing Kossuth actively interested in his cult anywhere in the Realms. He just doesn't care. Gods care, which adds support to the idea that Kossuth is a different sort of critter. Nothing wrong with that; Amon isn't a god either... I'm just saying that there's more canon support for a devil making appearances in the Realms and putting effort into impersonating a god than there is for Kossuth doing it.
I won't fight your interpretation Barastir, except to note that the rest of the Egyptian pantheon (not to mention Zeus, Thor, and Shang-ti, among thousands of other pagan gods) are written up as gods rather than fiends. The Egyptian Amon (pretty sure Amon-Ra was an amalgam of two deities) would logically also be written up as a god, not a fiend; I think the writers of the original Deities & Demigods cherrypicked a handful of representative deities from each pantheon, and Amon didn't make the cut for a handful of reasons including the sheer volume of gods the Egyptians venerated over the various dynasties and because he wasn't necessary; his portfolio (though that term wasn't in use yet) was probably covered by other gods. Plus, Amon-Ra would have been (partly at least) redundant with Ra.
This does emphasize a totally valid point, though: two entities with similar names don't necessarily have anything to do with each other. Amaunator doesn't have to be Amon, At'ar doesn't have to Amaunator, and Amon-Ra could be someone else too.
I'm just suggesting that it's possible that Amaunator could be Amon, in spite of their apparently-antithetical natures. There are ways in which this could work and make sense... enabling us to, if we want to, make Amaunator and Lathander different entities, very much opposed to each other. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:23:24
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| Hmm. I hadn't thought about the idea of Amaunator being Amun-Ra. That might actually be kind of cool, if after leading the rebellion against Imaskar, he didn't just settle down in Mulhorand, but also set out into the wider world to see what else was there. That would put his arrival sometime in the early days of Netheril, and he might decide to settle down in his "sun" and "stodgy bureaucrat" persona. Because goodness knows, "stodgy" is a good term to describe Mulhorand. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:24:58
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| Well, don't forget that all the way up to 4e, Lathander and Amaunator are completely separate entities. If you don't want there to be any kind of link, just ignore that whole 4e "faces of the same coin" thing. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Well, don't forget that all the way up to 4e, Lathander and Amaunator are completely separate entities. If you don't want there to be any kind of link, just ignore that whole 4e "faces of the same coin" thing.
There was a heresy in the waning days of 3E that suggested they were the same deity. I think it was in Power of Faerūn. It was suggested before that, in places like the Realms-L list, though I believe it wasn't worked into canon until that heresy. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jun 2013 19:52:50 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 19:57:28
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I see Lathander very much like Apollo, that would be a later version of the Sun God that Amon-Ra (Amaunator) once was.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 21:15:13
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Bah, the gremlins poodoo'd my reply.
Starting over and maybe being more clear (ha! unlikely) than I was in the vanished version...
Sorry I didn't make the connection with Imaskar from your earlier post, Barastir. I was thinking "why would an Egyptian deity be worshiped in Netheril?" I didn't get it until Hoondatha spelled it out.
I can see Amaunator's attitude/priorities being consistent with the God-Kings, but this raises other questions.
If Re and Amun-Ra/Amaunator were the same entity, then how do we explain the persistence of Amaunator after the death of Re? Lost Empires cites Horus as leading the gods who rescued the mulan; Re was only mentioned in the earlier FR10 version of history. So we're left with the implication that Horus was in charge of the battle against Imaskar, but Re ruled Mulhorand until his death circa -1000 DR, at which point he merged with Horus to become Horus-Re. If Amaunator was Re's little project in the north, would Horus-Re continue supporting the church of Amaunator given his responsibilities in Mulhorand? And if he wanted to, could he? The canon portrayal seems to be that the God-Kings were distinctly less powerful than gods. Plus, the God-Kings owed the Netherese nothing; Netheril would have been simply a diversion for one who had time to dither about... which, around the time of the Orcgate Wars, they did not; they were busy fighting. I think the church of Amaunator would have lost all its divine support at this point if Re was its source of power. There would have been a period of strife in and around Mulhorand for some time after that, especially given the rise and competitive nature of Narfell and Raumathar, which lasted until circa -150 DR and through another big war and then the Second Empire of Mulhorand started immediately after that, keeping the God-Kings and their priests plenty busy enough in the south that they wouldn't bother with the north.
There are more questions: if Re created Amaunator in the north, why wouldn't other God-Kings also venture out and create alias-gods? Particularly Thoth (knowledge) and Set (all sorts of reasons to seek additional power)? Nephthys was all about wealth and nobility and probably commerce... wouldn't she have been interested in Netheril too, and/or Jhaamdath/Chondath? I don't want "yes" answers to these questions... I like diversity and distinction and creativity, which seem to be consistent with Ed's worldbuilding. Melting everything together and reducing differences came later, and imo that started us on the slippery slope toward wholesale loss of lore.
Back to the point, this would mean that Amaunator would have been a manifestation with one or more incarnations from about -2500 to 1357 DR. The manifestation would undoubtedly be a prophet of the faith, and a destination of pilgrimages. The incarnation would be the public face of the church; it's most likely that the priest who started that heresy was the last incarnation.
During the Time of Troubles, the manifestation would have been reduced in power, and the incarnation(s) would have fallen comatose. This is totally irrational, of course, but that's how the God-Kings are handled in canon.
At some point soon after the Time of Troubles, the manifestation would most likely have vanished, and the incarnation would have lost all his powers. That's what happened to the God-Kings, and if Amaunator is the same sort of creature then that's what happened to him too. The choice to leave the Realms might have been voluntary, and their specific reasons are not (as far as I know) stated officially, but Amaunator would more than likely have had the same reasoning as his fellows in Mulhorand. For one thing, the manifestation is a huge vulnerability... if something managed to kill him, the faith would be crippled. Choosing to depart the surface of Toril, in contrast, can be spindoctored into a sad but ultimately neutral event.
None of these things are supported in canon. The incarnation's lost of power, especially if he's the priest who appears to lead the church (which is the only really logical choice), would be a huge blow... though maybe it could be concealed by letting another priest take over the church.
The mulan connection could make a workable story, from a purely lore-perspective, but the official handling of the God-Kings makes it difficult if not impossible to make Amaunator consistent with the God-Kings.
But that's just my take. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 01:47:35
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Hmmm, pointing out that Amun-Ra (Amon-Ra) could be the vestige that is Amon does make me wonder on some things. As I research Amun-Ra he has a big affinity to Rams, which Amon also has according to Tome of Magic. Given that vestiges are not necessarily tied to the realms, this is a doable thing.
I also find it interesting that Amun-Ra means Hidden Light ... with Amun/Amon meaning hidden. So, the name of the vestige means "Hidden". Not sure what to make of that, but interesting.
On the idea of Ra/Amon/Amaunator being the same being, it was possible for the Mulhorandi pantheon to become full-fledged gods despite the Imaskari barrier. We see this in the case of Bast becoming Sharess. However, Ra and Amun were separate beings in Egyptian History. Ra came first. Amon came later. It was earth's lore that mixed the two gods into an amalgam. Just because they both came from around Egypt shouldn't make them the same deity. Heck, at one point, people associated Amon-Ra to Zeus too.
However, I still see a point in relating Amon and Amaunator. They are very close in all their descriptions. We also have some links between the two already established by WotC at the below link
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718
SOME EARTH HISTORY OF RA
Ra was an ancient god, but not the oldest of the gods; the first references to Ra date from the Second Dynasty. However, by the Fifth Dynasty he was a powerful god who was closely associated with the pharaoh. The Pharaoh was already seen as the embodiment of Horus and so the two gods became linked, sometimes as the composite deity Ra-Horakhty ("Ra (is) Horus of the Horizon"). Ra also came to be associated with Atum (the creator god of the Ennead in Heliopolis) as Atum-Ra. By the Fifth Dynasty the pharaoh was referred to as the son of Ra and the name of Ra was incorporated into the throne name of every king from that point onwards. Many Old Kingdom pharaohs built sun temples in which to worship Ra.
The Middle Kingdom saw the rise to prominence of Amun of Thebes. Although Ra kept his association with the pharaoh, he was to some degree absorbed by Amun as Amun-Ra . However, the priests of Amun became very wealthy and influential and so some of the pharaohs of the New Kingdom chose to elevate Ra in his stead, perhaps partly because he was already closely associated with the pharaoh.
SOME EARTH HISTORY OF AMUN/AMON
Amun was one of the eight ancient Egyptian gods who formed the Ogdoad of Hermopolis. He was the god of the air and his consort was Ament (Amaunet). However, during the Twelfth dynasty (Middle Kingdom) Amun was adopted in Thebes as the King of the gods with Mut as his consort. Amun and Mut had one child, the moon god Khonsu. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 02:35:47
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Ra was the leader of the Mulhorandi pantheon. He and Enlil led the struggle against the Imaskari. After it was over, he became the undisputed ruler of the pantheon until he was killed during the Orcgate Wars. His power eventually passed to Horus, who up until that point was just one of several second-tier gods in the pantheon, along with Set, Osiris, and Isis.
So he's definitely around in the Realms long enough ago to have Amaunator as an alias. As to why he would be in one place and not the other, remember that there was a great deal of distance between the two empires and that there appear to be something akin to buffers between pantheon dominions. So if he was worshipped in one place after he ceased to be worshipped in another, he likely would still stick around.
And why he didn't then go back is also easy: there had been a lawful succession of power. His going back could do nothing but foster chaos and a godly (and priestly) power struggle as he and Horus competed to see who would head the pantheon. That's pretty much the antithesis of what a god of Mulhorand, or a LN stick in the mud like Amaunator, would want to do. Therefore he didn't do it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 13:35:13
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Another thing comes to mind. Amaunator was around... then there was At'ar. I note Amaunator might also be said closely as Amon-At'ar. Given that our real world Amon was often taken as associating with other deities, could he have been some kind of dual-entity god similar to Angharradh. Amon may have been killed off, but At'ar survived. Later (or around the same time) Ra was also slain, leaving Lathander as the pre-eminent god of the sun.
MORE REAL WORLD LORE ON AMUN
His name is generally translated as "the hidden one" or "the secret one" and it was thought that he created himself and then created everything else while remaining distanced and separate from the world. In that sense he was the original inscrutable and indivisible creator. When he merged with Ra he became both a visible and invisible deity. This duality (the hidden god and the visible sun) appealed to the Egyptian concept of balance and duality leading to an association between Amun-Ra and Ma“at. Amun was also identified with Montu (who he pretty much absorbed) and the hybrid gods Amun-Ra-Atum, Amun-Re-Montu, Amun-Re-Horakhty and Amun-Min. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 22:30:40
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| Well am going to suggest maybe this, on a side note, Amataour was Lawful Neutral, Lathander was Neutral Good, and now Amauntor is Lawful Good. So I don't want to say maybe that the "god" has changed with the seasons, but maybe those that worshiped him have, as have the values of the realms from the point of the super powerful worshiping him to the every day layman. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 00:55:53
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quote:
Barastir
However, since [Amaunator/Amon-Ra] was a pagan God, he was also seen as a fiend, and in an early edition of the game he was portrayed as a Duke of Hell.
Not true in anything I've read from AD&D 1E (MM, MM2, FF) or 2E (MM/MC, Planescape, etc). Amon-Ra-the-Duke-of-Hell in found in which edition, which sourcebook?
This is a weak argument, since all the gods in every edition of the game could be called "pagan" gods, yet this distinction alone doesn't categorize them as fiends. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 02:18:32
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Hm. This is just me, but I don't see the Egyptian Amun and the fiend Amon being the same entity; not without a lot of handwaving anyway. Also, while either Amun (unlinked with Ra) or Amon might be in the Realms, I think Amun-Ra would be redundant with Re and for that reason shouldn't be done in the Realms... at least they shouldn't both exist at the same time.
Amun being one of the Egyptian deities who were brought into the Realms to defeat Imaskar might be possible, but the inevitable questions have only messy answers.
Amaunator could be a distinct deity, or he could be a sort of two-phase power linked with Lathander, or he could be something else. I just wanted to throw out the possibility of him not being a god at all but successfully pretending to be. Out of the possibilities that have been suggested in this thread, I still favor Amon (as a devil, not as an alias of a god) being the secret. But of course that's just me. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 04:54:21
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| I would like to go with the old theory of Pelor of the burning hate |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 13:06:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This is a weak argument, since all the gods in every edition of the game could be called "pagan" gods, yet this distinction alone doesn't categorize them as fiends.
Ayrik, the devil Amon is in the MM2 1e. It is a wolf-headed devil, in reference to the egyptian gods. Since designers were many, SOME gods were turned into devils or demons, just like Bel (which is a variant of Bhaal), Dagon, Mammon or Moloch, for example, which were canaanite/edomite gods. I'm not saying that game designers decided they would be fiends; they were gods turned into fiends by the western culture before being translated to the game world. Ashira, for example, is a demoness in jewish culture and in the Bible, but is a CG creature in the 2e Zakhara compendium.
EDIT: Agreed with xaeyruudh, I don't think they are the same entity in the game. I just think they were both inspired in the same deity/name. The devil, I think, in a really loose adaptation (more the name than anything else). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 19 Jun 2013 13:17:54 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 16:29:21
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| yea, the Egyptian Amun shouldn't be a demon, but a large group of people believing him to be one could cause the formation of another, fiendish Amun |
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A different take on Amaunator
