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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 16:03:25
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There is no doubt in my mind that the 3e Tome of Magic hints that Amaunator is a vestige named Amon. The fact that he was a deity of light and justice who hates Karsus.... enough said. If we were to accept that this is the case and that Amaunator was freed by rituals completed by heretical priests of Lathander and possibly binders, is there any chance that his being freed from the place where Vestiges go was somehow tied to the spellplague? As in the place that cannot exist and is beyond reality temporarily comes into phase with Toril again, which starts jostling Abeir and Toril.
Its somewhat hinted that the place where Vestiges go may also have ties to the far realm. Could this have something to do with this abolethic sovereignity (and I've read nothing about them, mind you) appearing in the world? Basically, all the places that Toril "shouldn't be able to reach".... the far realm, the place where Vestiges are, Abeir all seem to have come into contact relatively close to one another.
For that matter, might we find that Karsus also escaped from being a vestige? If he did, what would this do to the shadovar... as I'm seeing them being split. It could easily be that he was cast out and has been trapped or something for the past century in what remained of his petrified body. Or he could be in hiding or insane.
I just figured I'd throw out some possibilities here to fuel discussion.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 16:57:06
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From what I gather from the GHotR, Aumantor was already 'returning' some time before The Fall of Mystra, so it should not be connected to the Spellplague.
However - and now I am going back to an old argument I use to have on this subject - what, precisely IS 'The Spellplague'? We have two SEPARATE things going on on - Mystra dies and the weave collapses (so we assume - it could have just reverted to a more 'primal' form, without any controls on it), and we have the worlds of Abeir and Toril becoming Coterminous. We assume that one caused the other... but did it?
From what has been said - officially and unofficially - these 'conjunctions' happen every so often, but normally not to the degree we see it in the Spellplague. We've also had Mystra/Mystryl fall at least twice before, and the damage was not nearly so bad (except for the Netherese, but who really feels sorry for them?)
So here's my latest theory - the Spellplague was so damn catastrophic because Mystra/The Weave fell at the same time as Abeir became Coterminous with Toril - something that has never happened before (as far as we know). Normally, they are 'far enough' apart so there is no 'friction' between the two. When they do come together, we have The Weave (which I have always felt was a bit more then just 'the magic' - its more like a shield and set of laws/physics for Realmspace, like an immense Mythal) protecting Toril from much of the Mayhem: It acts as shock-absorber for all the 'cosmic hubub' that is going on as the worlds brush past each other.
So, what happened was like what would happen if the shocks in your car broke, and then you went off-roading... it was one helluva bumpy ride. Thats what I think the Spellplague truly was - just a really bad series of unfortunate events. Of course, Shar probably planned it that way (hoping to un-make Realmspace in the process).
So if thats the case, then the two worlds were already coterminous, and some of the 'funniness' was already underway, which may have included the return of Aumanator (assume whichever 'sun deity' is in its zenith goes to Abeir to 'hibernate'). Think of the conjunction like the phases of the moon - it gets stronger and stronger, is in full-blown conjunction, and then wanes as they move apart again. Aumantor's clergy (those 'heretics') were already preparing for his return before the day of Conjunction... and Shar was also waiting for that same day to make her move, and destroy everything in the process. She chose the worst time possible to bring down the Weave.
You know... that actually fixes several snafus...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jun 2013 18:08:53 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 18:02:10
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Markustay,
I concur with your analysis on this one. Mystra being killed (especially since we now know that wasn't quite as cut and dry as we'd first assumed...) causing the Spellplague AND the full impact of the 4E conjunction of worlds seemed a bit overblown. However, a timed assassination designed to shatter the world as planned by Shar (based on the timing of her 'alternate roll of years' as outlined in varied sources) makes a lot more sense. Duping Cyric into being her agent for such makes even more sense (as he'd be blinded to any larger considerations by his sheer hatred of Midnight/Mystra).
It might even be said to make good sense to have Shar as the hidden agent behind Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul's theft of the Tablets of Fate during the ToT in the first place (that way she'd have the proper foreknowledge to set the timing of her roll of years) or even events much further back in time than that (varied Sundering related Elven actions discussed here on another thread). After all, she's been around since Day One and her whole point for being is to unmake creation itself. What better way to do that than to encourage power hungry beings (mortal and divine alike) to tamper repeatedly with the 'things they were told not to mess with.' Her as the patron of the Netherese certainly fits (as perhaps does her whispering into Lolth's ear before she fell from grace). However, one need not make her the ultimate clever big bad if that doesn't fit your concept of the Realms, but it certainly can easily be made to work.
No matter what one thinks, I suspect Shar was pretty disappointed when the wheels didn't totally fly off the bus and when her backup plan, the Shadoweave, also failed to make it through the Spellplague intact. Although, I suppose it is possible that the Shadoweave was just part of her plan to trigger the Spellplague by having a magical power source that could be handed out to followers and not interrupted by Mystra during the lead up to the strike... So, maybe its loss wouldn't have been as much of a disappointment.
Shar is a 'big bad' in my campaign, with Selune being a 'big good' balancing her on the other side of the ledger. In particular, I use the connections/similarities between Eilistraee, Mystra, and Selune to tie those three goddesses together (maiden, mother, crone anyone?) in a way that puts some gas in my campaign's engine.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 12 Jun 2013 18:04:40 |
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lordsknight185
Seeker
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 13:10:25
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| Don't forget, James Wyatt mentioned in last years gencon sundering panel that Abeir and Toril starting to collide together was a direct effect of AO destroying the tablets of fate...and the spellplague simply sped up the process that would have taken place eventually anyway. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 14:07:06
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| I don't think vestiges can escape, more likely Amaunator had a corpse in the Astral plane. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2013 : 14:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I don't think vestiges can escape, more likely Amaunator had a corpse in the Astral plane.
The entry for Amon and Amaunator were too coincidentally alike. I mean a god of sun and justice who is killed... that also hates Karsus... that favored golden colored animals |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2013 : 22:09:29
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| so if amaun is that, what happen to Lathander |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2013 : 14:03:41
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We've discussed this before, in reference to the theory that Lathander and Aumanator are part of a tripartite deity along with Myrkul ('The Dusk Lord').
For my part, I felt some sort of deal had been struck 'in ages past' (The Sundering?) where one died (probably Aumanator) and the second sun replaced him (Lathander). The deal was that that Aumanator got to return to the world (a'la Peresephone in Greek mythos), but then lathander woud have to step-down for a time. Since the god of the dead (maybe Jergal back then) had to approve this, he, too, got a piece of the 'day' portfolio as the Dusk Lord. So like the cycle of the day, we have one god in full apex, while one god is waxing, and the other is waning. I think I once figured that the gods had 1000 year cycles they overlap by about 300 years, and that only two would ever be 'active' at the same time.
That leaves the problem of "where does Aumanator or Lathander go when they are not active?" I figure some sort of 'godly hibernation', whatever the hell that is. In FR lore, that could mean they are trapped on Abeir for their off-cycle. Unfortunately, that would mean that both sun gods should be aware of Abeir, and we have no prior lore saying any of the deities know about Abeir (although we also don't have lore saying they didn't). Other possibilities include some sort of Tomb in Hell/the Lower Planes, or just a 'corpse' floating in the Astral.
Even if their 'body' does float in the astral, I would think a vestige of their consciousness should still be trapped somewhere - that would be an interesting bit of lore for them to reveal (or hint at).
Mind you - most of the above is conjecture built on other conjecture - that there are indeed three 'gods of the day cycle' - so its really purely theoretical. In my own games, I run it where there is some overlap in portfolios, which FR/D&D doesn't really allow (because it makes rules for these things too complicated). I personally feel its all based upon worship and belief, and that no power is derived directly from the portfolio itself (so any deity can claim to be the god of anything, so long as they convince some mortals its true). But of course, that goes against FR canon.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jun 2013 14:04:30 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 04:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That leaves the problem of "where does Aumanator or Lathander go when they are not active?" I figure some sort of 'godly hibernation', whatever the hell that is.
The point of this thread explains that away. They got sucked to where Vestiges go. Maybe Lathander is there now. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Did Amaunator's being freed have anything to do wi
