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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  00:50:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Just wondering, do we have any idea when Auril was introduced to the realms? I know she was Aurilandur the frost sprite queen Archfey prior to being infected by the dark gem and becoming the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Unseelie Court, according to 4th edition stuff. I'm just wondering if there's possibly linkages between her, Shar, and Zotha (I know none officially/canonically exist, I'm just wonderin on the possibility). Anyway, ideas as to WHEN she became the Queen of Air and Darkness might be useful. Also, any extra info on the Stormstar Requiem (if there is any). I'm trying right now to create a wizard's account (because its saying it has problems with my old one) to subscribe to DDI and download articles, but their site sucks royally.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  01:22:48  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hm. I can say that Shar was the Netherese deity of winter, which means that she lost the portfolio to Auril or another deity (which Auril then got it from) after the Fall of Netheril. (Netheril: Empire of Magic, pg. 55)

Zotha was likely a male primordial being, probably in the form of a dragon. Pretty much all that is known of him is written by an unreliable narrator in second edition's Draconomicon on pg. 2.

I can't really speak to the whole Auril being the Queen of Air and Darkness thing.

A theory that could be put forward is that Shar was the Queen of Air and Darkness and Selune was Titania. They became known as Shar and Selune in the Realms. Their stories are similar, they're both sisters, one of which turned evil. Auril could have been an aspect of Shar that broke away after the Fall of Netheril. As a result, this would also technically make Auril the Queen of Air and Darkness.

I don't think this theory is very strong, and I don't like the linking in particular, but with the right perspective and twisting it could be made.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  02:30:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Hm. I can say that Shar was the Netherese deity of winter, which means that she lost the portfolio to Auril or another deity (which Auril then got it from) after the Fall of Netheril. (Netheril: Empire of Magic, pg. 55)

Zotha was likely a male primordial being, probably in the form of a dragon. Pretty much all that is known of him is written by an unreliable narrator in second edition's Draconomicon on pg. 2.

I can't really speak to the whole Auril being the Queen of Air and Darkness thing.

A theory that could be put forward is that Shar was the Queen of Air and Darkness and Selune was Titania. They became known as Shar and Selune in the Realms. Their stories are similar, they're both sisters, one of which turned evil. Auril could have been an aspect of Shar that broke away after the Fall of Netheril. As a result, this would also technically make Auril the Queen of Air and Darkness.

I don't think this theory is very strong, and I don't like the linking in particular, but with the right perspective and twisting it could be made.



They linked Auril as the Queen of Air and Darkness in Dragon #367.


Hmmm, thanks for the reminder of the Netheril boxed set. So, in it Shar was the goddess not only of winter, but also the goddess of illusions and lies, thievery, and also murder. So, at some point, Auril took over as the goddess of cold/winter and Leira took illusions/lies from her. As well, Mask took his portfolios and Bhaal took murder (which is a twist on the classic telling that Jergal held murder).

Hmmm, so either Auril was already around during Netheril and the two pantheons came to a head..... or somehow or other, Shar was involved with the black gem that enslaved Aurilandur.

On the fey gods being correlated to the Seelie/Unseelie Court, I'm thinking we COULD correlate Shar to the hag goddess Cegilune (an evil lunar goddess of darkness its noted in Monster Mythology) that in that book they state appears to be Titania's sister, except that the Queen of Air and Darkness also appears to be Titania's sister (its noted as a Quandary there). So, that means we would have a trio of sister gods (Selune/Titania, Shar/Cegilune, and Auril/Aurilandur aka Queen of Air and Darkness) and not just two goddess sisters. This might be pushing things though with associating Selune and Titania and Shar as Cegilune. For instance, Cegilune actually gains power with the full moon and uses moonbeams... so Cegilune sounds more like an evil version of Selune or a variation of Hecate.

So, I'm guessing, easier to just assume a case of interloper pantheons interacting and portfolios being lost.

You know, I'd love to see an article one day that travels back to the time of say Netheril and makes sense of all the various pantheons that existed before the combined Faerunian pantheon existed. The only problem being I don't think anyone but Eric Boyd could make sense of it all. That would be a good topic of research however. For instance, the whole Kozah, Talos, Bhaelros ... and apparently now Gruumsh (which I still hold to be a heresy and a lie)... thing would be of interest, with Kozah the Stormstar having both eyes and Talos missing one.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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silverwolfer
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789 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  04:47:54  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(1987). Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (Cyclopedia of the Realms), p. 10.
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  05:15:02  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, Bhaal was the deity of Death, with a focus on especially violent or ritual death. His title was Lord of Murder. That's not to say you're incorrect, though, as Bhaal's Death portfolio certainly covered murder as well. (Faiths and Avatars, pg. 44)

It's a bit different with Kelemvor as the god of death. He seems to have surrendered the less favorable aspects - in particular murder - to Cyric. This seems to be a similar arrangement that Jergal had with Shar when they were both worshiped as Netherese deities.

We also know that Mask was Shar's son, and that he stole a portion of her power. This information is revealed at the end of Shadowrealm - right before Shar reabsorbed him.

I'd also love to know about all the shifting of the portfolios, there are likely countless temples spread out across the Realms of long and forgotten deities.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  08:26:17  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that Auril first appeared during the last ice age. Aurilandur and Rellavar Danuvien were possibly of the fey creator race, archfey of the frost sprites. Human worship of Aurilandur created Auril. At that time Selune's name was Bright Nydra.
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  15:34:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IF Shar was the 'dark power' responsible for the transformation of Aurilandur into the Queen of Air & Darkness (through the black diamond, which seems fairly reasonable), then it would make sense that she would allow Auril to slowly assume at least one of her portfolios.

In the case of most gods - good and evil - we see that in most cases, when a deity sponsors a mortal to godhood, the new demi-power usually takes on a sub-category of one of the sponsoring deity's portfolios. If Shar had 'winter' in her portfolio - a rather broad category - I can easily see how cold could have been sheered-off of that (or vice-versa; 'cold' is a very broad category as well). She probably (if any of this were to be true) slowly took on a larger portion of the cold/winter portfolios as she herself grew in power (most-likely with Shar's blessing - everyone needs 'subordinates' to run a large operation, and Shar has a lot on her plate).

I'm going to cross-over slightly into Gray's thread for a moment: My thinking here is that each of the 'Creator Races' had arch-somethings that would fit the current 'Exarch' tier, and that various primal powers probably sponsored a great many of them, both to help manage their rather large (initially) portfolios, and also to give them more power during conflicts with opposing primal powers (and I'm am thinking specifically of Shar and Selune here).

Sooooo... how much different is it when a god (deity, primordial, or whatever) grants another (mortal) being a piece of its portfolios (which = POWER), and what happened when Selune 'accidentally' created Mystryl? From the lore we have and questions I have asked Ed, we know that the power that is Mytsryl/Mystra (The Weave) needs to be 'hung on' (attached to) a mortal, for whatever reason. It may be as simple as giving a non-sentient portfolio its own consciousness. Whatever. We are talking about a god taking a chunk of its power (and some of its sister's power) and attaching it to a mortal... seems to me that was pretty popular 'back in the day' (and we still see gods doing this - mostly recently The Red Knight, if I am not mistaken).

So there it is - for whatever reason, primal powers seem to need to link parts of themselves (aspects/portfolios/power) to mortals. On the surface this may look altruistic, but evil powers do it just as often, if not more. There is something there... some secret kernel of 'truth' we are missing... something about mortals that 'the gods' (the original, primal ones) couldn't do by themselves. It could just be the tropey 'Gods may not interfere directly' thing (in which case, mortal-born deities could fall outside of that clause). But whatever it is, we see this constantly - ancient powers sheering-off parts of themselves to create new deities which are under their command... at least at first.

I don't think Selune makes a good fit for Titania. In my own (homebrew) musings I have it where Titania is the daughter of Danu (and amazing Goddess that appears in several different, wide-spread ancient RW religions), and that Danu was 'the first Archfey', who sacrificed herself to remove Faerie from the mortal world and bring it to the Feywild (sort of how the High-Magic Elven ritual brought a piece of Faerie - Evermeet - back to the mortal Realms). She is no longer quite a person, but rather, the essence of Faerie itself (in much the same way as 'The Earthmother' is of The Moonshaes). Her consciousness has now become part of the land. However, as Titania's mother, she would also be Auril's mother.

I wasn't a big fan of that piece of lore - turning Auril into the QoA&D, but I suppose I could still make it work. In other musings, I had it where Araushnee was the daughter of the QoA&D, and Corellon and Grumsh were 'twin' sons of Titania (but with different fathers). Thus, Araushnee (Lolth) is cousin to both Corellon and Grumsh (and the whole icky 'cousins thing' wouldn't really matter to these sorts of beings, considering their ancientness and their heritage). Unfortunately that would make Auril (the QoA&D) Lolth's mommy, which I find a bit odd. At first (upon hearing about that 'revelatoion') I thought it completely nuked my homebrew lore, but I am starting to see how it could still work. We've never really known all that much about Auril (who may have been one of the Yuir Totems), but I had always assumed she was a much younger power then Lolth. However, we don't necessarily know that for sure (or do we?)

Auril would date from the time before the Fey fled Toril (the Sundering) and went to the Feywild, and Lolth would date from the time after the Fey had already firmly established themselves in Faerie (according to what we 'saw' in Evermeet: Isle of Elves). In fact, the whole Black Diamond affair could be tied to the Sundering as well (the first major destruction of large tracts of Abeir-Toril's geography). So although I think it odd that Auriul is the Queen of Air & Darkness, it still all works within the canon if she IS Lolth's mother.

Bear in mind that I am blending a LOT of my different (homebrew) musings with known canon, trying to figure out how all of this fits together - take all of this with a grain of salt. I think the Fey/Celtic pantheon were once one and the same, and one of the first (five?) pantheons in existence (in the pre-Sundered, pre-shattered world/universe). Auril being part of that actually works just fine - she should predate the rise of the Elves/Eladrin and the Seldarin. That pantheon (and those people) should not have 'risen' until after the fey migration to the Feywild. Especially when you consider she could be a Yuir Totem, which should make her one of those 'Fey powers' mentioned early-on in the GHotR (the ones that sent the Sylvan Elves to Toril).

One thing still bothers me - what was the connection between Cegilune and the QoA&D? I can't seem to find it ATM.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2013 13:55:20
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2013 :  22:57:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The connection between Cegilune and the Queen of Air & Darkness is via Titania.

On Cegilune it says
"She is believed to be related to the sylvan deities, allegedly a dark sister to Titania, their natures being irrevocably opposed as are light and darkness, yet neither can exist without the other. It is widely believed, even by some deities, that should either goddess perish, the other will automatically perish also; so the gods of good have their hands tied in opposing the evil mistress of Hades and her eternal hunger for souls. This relation cannot be the whole truth, because of Titania's known dark sister the Queen of Air and Darkness, but there is some relation between the dark hag and the fair Faerie Queen. Cegilune is seen by the sylvan beings as a fearsome stalker in darkness, and even hags themselves have no love of their goddess. They fear her greed and avarice, believing that she will take from them the spoils which are rightly theirs".

Now, the question that pops in my head is "didn't they replace Titania in 4E? Or did they just rename her?".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2013 :  01:22:31  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Included here is some extra lore that was edited out of the 'Hall of the Frostmaiden' article. As such, it's not canon but you may find it useful nonetheless.

Paraphrased from the Stormstar Requiem, a parable in verse sung by druids of Mielikki, warning against the dangers of coveting the lands and property of others:
quote:
Revealing himself as Gruumsh—ancient diety of conquest and father of the Orc Pantheon— Talos the Stormstar gathered a mighty host of planar warriors and conscripted the Gods of Fury (Auril, Malar, and Umberlee) for a surprise assault against the elven dominion of Arvandor.

Distracted by the tumultuous events of the Spellplague, Corelleon and the goodly powers of the Seldarine were taken completely by surprise from the audacious attack. Not since the Days of Thunder had an enemy force set foot in the storied dominion of the elves.

The opening salvo was devastating to Seladarine forces resulting in the deaths of Sehanine Moonbow and Aerdrie Faenya, the later by Auril’s retributive strike.

Yet victory was fleeting for Talos who was Gruumsh. The fey powers of the Seelie Court rallied to the aid of their elven allies and methodically turned back the horde of invaders.

Twice denied the spoils of Arvandor, Gruumsh unleashed his anger on his lieutenants, slaying Ilneval outright and severely maiming Malar the Beastlord.

Compounding his defeat, the dominion of Fury’s Heart began to unravel from perturbations stemming from the Spellplague. Abandoning the Gods of Fury to their fate, Gruumsh retreated to his holdings in Nishrek to lick his wounds and ponder the conquest that nearly was.

Before breaking up completely the realms comprising Fury’s Heart were saved from an unlikely source. Reshaped by the indomitable will of Silvanus, the Oak Father, Fury’s Heart was once again joined with the House of Nature, as it was in a time millennia past.



Paraphrased from the Fallen Aurilandür, a parable in verse sung by lythari of the Border Forest, warning against hubris and the coveting of power:
quote:
Millennia before the first elves set foot on Abeir-Toril, the world was home to the Iqua-Tel’Quessir, the fabled creator races. Counted among their number were the leShay, progenitors of several fey species including korreds, sprites, and pixies. A race born of eldritch power, the leShay were intertwined into the very fabric of Faerie, the otherworldly plane known today as the Feywild. It was they which first architected the mystical fey crossroads and backroads which interweave Faerûn today.

One among the many divine powers venerated by the leShay and their fey progeny was Aurilandür the Frost Sprite Queen. As harbinger of winter and its crisp, chilly, winds Lady Frostkiss was revered as one of the Sy’Nys’Pyenelath; the goddesses of the four seasons. Aurilandür was beloved by the fey and great celebrations were held on Winter Solstice in her honor.

It’s not known when exactly Aurilandür first came to be corrupted by the Stormstar—a baleful artifact of indeterminate age or origin—but within a few short centuries the Frostmaiden became consumed with avarice and spite until little of her former self remained. With wicked new powers at her command, she joined with the Dark Seldarine in a failed assault against Arvandor. Energized even in failure, the Frost Sprite Queen returned to Faerie to challenge the fey gods. Before being forever banished from the Seelie Court she achieved some measure of retribution by brutally striking down the sisterhood of Sy’Nys’Pyenelath.

After wandering the planes for a time she allied with Talos-who-was-Gruumsh and carved out an icy kingdom from Fury’s Heart. From Winter Hall she sent out agents into the mortal world, cultivating new faithful from the primitive human tribes of Faerûn; all the while plotting vengeance against the Seldarine and their Seelie allies.


Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2013 :  14:32:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On Cegilune it says...
"She is believed to be related to the sylvan deities, allegedly a dark sister to Titania, their natures being irrevocably opposed as are light and darkness, yet neither can exist without the other. It is widely believed, even by some deities, that should either goddess perish, the other will automatically perish also; so the gods of good have their hands tied in opposing the evil mistress of Hades and her eternal hunger for souls. This relation cannot be the whole truth, because of Titania's known dark sister the Queen of Air and Darkness, but there is some relation between the dark hag and the fair Faerie Queen. Cegilune is seen by the sylvan beings as a fearsome stalker in darkness, and even hags themselves have no love of their goddess. They fear her greed and avarice, believing that she will take from them the spoils which are rightly theirs".
A possible 3rd sister, but I don't think so. She could be a cousin of Aurilandur and Titania, but then we'd need to figure-out who Cegliune's mother was (who would be a sister to Danu, in my HB musings). Cegliune or her mother may have been Macha, of the three Morrigan - she could easily have been an Archfey and sister to Danu. In fact, looking at the Irish folklore ATM, Cegliune could be definitely be part of 'The Morrigan', who is a tripatriate goddess, (the other two being Badb and Nemain). Being part of a 'covey' seems right in line with her being a hag (and can also then be connected to the Norse Norns and the Greek Furies, etc).

Once again, going back to my HB lore: In my version of the Black Diamond affair, Danu sacrificed herself to create the Realm of Faerie within the Feywild - a region once known as 'the giant wilds' (in giantish, of course). This is the basis for the (Irish) myths regarding the Tautha De' Danann (people of the Goddess Danu, who would be my Fey Creator race), and their invasion of the ancient giantish lands and war with the Firbolgs (which the Irish interpreted as being Ireland, but the truth is Ireland was just one of many islands that were part of a pre-sundered chain).

I have it where all (true) giants are male. The females of the {original} giant race were hags (who can modify their size as need arises). Hags - being part of the ancient, primordial giant race - are able to mate with just about anything. When they mate with male giants they produce other true giants (taking after their father), but when they mate with humans they produce hagspawn. This only applies to male children; all females born to hags are also hags. Because of blood dilution over the millenia, there are now female giants... which hags consider an abomination. Like I said, this is part of my homebrew world background (not D&D) - I like to reconclie all myths, legends, and folklore together.

So if I take this and throw it into the mix, and we say that Cegliune is an ancient Giantish power, we can easily see how she is connected to the fey, and the 'daughters of Danu'. Because of her hatred for the Fey powers (who she feels usurped her ancestral lands), she could also be the one responsible for the Black Diamond Affair (perhaps even with Shar's help... I can see them working together).

EDIT: I just realized Cegliune would NOT have hated them yet, because they wouldn't have invaded the Feywild (Jötunnwild?) until after the Black Diamond corrupted Auril(andur). That could be an interesting spin - Cegliune would then also have it out for whoever was responsible, be it Shar (or Shar's father, which in my homebrew lore I have as Erebus - 'the dweller on the edge', or simply, 'The Dark God'). I love it when evil powers hate it each other (which makes a lot of sense).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Now, the question that pops in my head is "didn't they replace Titania in 4E? Or did they just rename her?".
Thats one of those 'YOU decide' pieces of 4e lore. At first I hated it, but then I saw its usefulness. 'Titania' is used in Mystara (OD&D) and many other worlds, and so we got a more generic/FR version of the name in 4e. Thats how I reconcile it - its just an alias. However, I remember having discussions (with Quale IIRC) about this, and we could just as easily spin Tiandra as the daughter of Titania, who herself has 'moved on' through a 'progression of courts' (so after 10,000 or so, she has gone from being the 'Summer Queen', to the 'Autumn Harbinger', or some such).

Other then that, I am completely unfamiliar with 4e fairy lore, which is something I need to rectify.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2013 14:42:51
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  14:26:34  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great stuff Brian!

So maybe there's an Autumn Queen and a Vernal Queen somewhere? Do they rule separate courts I wonder? Or maybe they are fey goddesses/archfey that are long dead. Long forgotten sisters of Titania.

They remind me somewhat of the Horae, also called the Hours, the Greek goddesses of the seasons, although the Greeks only had 3 I believe, which suggests that they divided the seasons differently, and so it's possible that the fey might too. Perhaps there were only 3 sisters or Sy’Nys’Pyenelath, although Brian's lore does mention four seasons.

I believe Verenestra was Titania's daughter. Perhaps there were 3 sisters and Titania originally had sort of a combined springy-summery portfolio and gave the spring part to Verenestra. Verenestra could be the Vernal Queen (spring queen? queen of green?) Although this is not totally satisfactory as Verenestra has not to my recollection been associated with that season and there's not much about her to make the connection. I can't find any other candidates, though. Perhaps Spring and Autumn are just lost gods.

Note that Mielikki has the portfolio of Autumn for the Realms, which suggests either that the fey god of Autumn died, merged with or surrendered her portfolio to Mielikki a long time ago. Or perhaps it simply means that the Autumn Queen's control of that portfolio in the Feywild does not extend into the material Realms.

Tiandra is the current Summer Queen of the Feywild. Not sure if that is another name for Titania or if Tiandra is a descendant of Titania. A different faerie queen named Rhiannon was mentioned in Dragon #155, so my inclination is to think they comprise a dynasty of very long-lived Summer Queens, several of whom have been named Titania. (Just as there have been multiple Henrys, Elizabeths, Caesars or Augustii).

Alternatively, Titania the goddess (if she's still around) may have ascended to godhood through worship by mortals in the material realms, possibly even by fey or even humans in the North region. Consequently her ascension precluded her from attending to her temporal duties as queen of the Summer Court, and thus she had to pass the governing of it on to her successors.

Interestingly, I read that Shakespeare actually invented Titania, and he supposedly got the name from Ovid's Metamorphoses, where the name Titania is more of a patronymic that refers to any daughter of the Titans.

Which begs the question. Perhaps the original Titania of the Seelie Court (I say original, because it could be a popular name taken by many successor queens) was the daughter of a fey (or archfey) and a dawn titan or primordial. It would be interesting if she rose to such greatness despite (or because of) being a halfbreed.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  14:55:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Included here is some extra lore that was edited out of the 'Hall of the Frostmaiden' article. As such, it's not canon but you may find it useful nonetheless.

Paraphrased from the Stormstar Requiem, a parable in verse sung by druids of Mielikki, warning against the dangers of coveting the lands and property of others:
quote:
Revealing himself as Gruumsh—ancient diety of conquest and father of the Orc Pantheon— Talos the Stormstar gathered a mighty host of planar warriors and conscripted the Gods of Fury (Auril, Malar, and Umberlee) for a surprise assault against the elven dominion of Arvandor.

Distracted by the tumultuous events of the Spellplague, Corelleon and the goodly powers of the Seldarine were taken completely by surprise from the audacious attack. Not since the Days of Thunder had an enemy force set foot in the storied dominion of the elves.

The opening salvo was devastating to Seladarine forces resulting in the deaths of Sehanine Moonbow and Aerdrie Faenya, the later by Auril’s retributive strike.

Yet victory was fleeting for Talos who was Gruumsh. The fey powers of the Seelie Court rallied to the aid of their elven allies and methodically turned back the horde of invaders.

Twice denied the spoils of Arvandor, Gruumsh unleashed his anger on his lieutenants, slaying Ilneval outright and severely maiming Malar the Beastlord.

Compounding his defeat, the dominion of Fury’s Heart began to unravel from perturbations stemming from the Spellplague. Abandoning the Gods of Fury to their fate, Gruumsh retreated to his holdings in Nishrek to lick his wounds and ponder the conquest that nearly was.

Before breaking up completely the realms comprising Fury’s Heart were saved from an unlikely source. Reshaped by the indomitable will of Silvanus, the Oak Father, Fury’s Heart was once again joined with the House of Nature, as it was in a time millennia past.



Paraphrased from the Fallen Aurilandür, a parable in verse sung by lythari of the Border Forest, warning against hubris and the coveting of power:
quote:
Millennia before the first elves set foot on Abeir-Toril, the world was home to the Iqua-Tel’Quessir, the fabled creator races. Counted among their number were the leShay, progenitors of several fey species including korreds, sprites, and pixies. A race born of eldritch power, the leShay were intertwined into the very fabric of Faerie, the otherworldly plane known today as the Feywild. It was they which first architected the mystical fey crossroads and backroads which interweave Faerûn today.

One among the many divine powers venerated by the leShay and their fey progeny was Aurilandür the Frost Sprite Queen. As harbinger of winter and its crisp, chilly, winds Lady Frostkiss was revered as one of the Sy’Nys’Pyenelath; the goddesses of the four seasons. Aurilandür was beloved by the fey and great celebrations were held on Winter Solstice in her honor.

It’s not known when exactly Aurilandür first came to be corrupted by the Stormstar—a baleful artifact of indeterminate age or origin—but within a few short centuries the Frostmaiden became consumed with avarice and spite until little of her former self remained. With wicked new powers at her command, she joined with the Dark Seldarine in a failed assault against Arvandor. Energized even in failure, the Frost Sprite Queen returned to Faerie to challenge the fey gods. Before being forever banished from the Seelie Court she achieved some measure of retribution by brutally striking down the sisterhood of Sy’Nys’Pyenelath.

After wandering the planes for a time she allied with Talos-who-was-Gruumsh and carved out an icy kingdom from Fury’s Heart. From Winter Hall she sent out agents into the mortal world, cultivating new faithful from the primitive human tribes of Faerûn; all the while plotting vengeance against the Seldarine and their Seelie allies.






So, this would hint that Talos was the reason Aurilandur became the Queen of Air and Darkness and eventually Auril. This I could definitely buy, given Talos' ties to the wind and "the end of all things".

Note, I will not accept that Talos was Gruumsh. I will accept that Talos gave up some of his power to raise up Velsharoon, Velsharoon turned on him and went to Mystra, Talos also invested power trying to get the name Malyk going as god of wild and destructive magic.... and he spread himself thin and Gruumsh slew him during the spellplague and took his name to lead this assault on Arvandor. This nicely allows Talos to come back

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  15:06:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the case of MielikKi, I associate he with the Sumerian goddess Ki, whom she is very much like (I personally feel the two are one and the same, from some proto-religion here on Earth). Perhaps there was a minor deity named Miel or some-such that she merged with. It might not jibe 100% with FR canon, but I try to create a proto-mythos, which every other setting's religions can shoe-horn into (meaning that there are 'deeper truths' buried in the legends, and the legends themselves are just world-specific stories that have been altered over time).

Ki would have been one these primal (Archfey?) powers from the beginning, and be worshiped under various aliases in hundreds of different religions. Ki would have come over with the rest of the Sumerian pantheon, which merged (in FR) with the Babylonian to become Unther's pantheon. So the Sumerian Ki may have merged with an FR power at that time, or Mielikki (being Finnish) may have been an already-existing aspect of her on Toril.

I also have it where Mielikki is a 'third sister', the other two being Loviatar and Kiputytto (there is an interesting story regarding those two and Cyric, in The Complete Book of Necromancers). In my HB musings, I have it where kiputytto was 'saved' from total obliteration by her sister Mielikki, who - with Oghma's help - manged to hide her essence (vestige) somewhere in the Stonelands/Tunlands region (after she was completely depleted from her battle with Talona). During the ToT, Ao restored and placed her avatar on Toril - as he did with all other deities - and she had a final conflict with Talona (as mortals), and lost once again. The story in the CBoN is from a time after the ToT (because Cyric is already a god in it).

In my homebrew cross-mythos, the Norse, Celtic, and Finnish pantheons are amongst the oldest in the universe (only certain gods), and they are closely related (all three having close ties to the Seldarin/Fey powers... whom they might actually be.. at last some of them). The Norse pantheon actually began as the giant pantheon (once again, HB), so that the Celtic/Fey pantheon and them were not always so friendly (note that at least three Norse gods are actually Vanir - ELVEN deities captured in war). This fits perfectly with my 'invasion of the Feywild' by the Fey (when they fled Toril during the Sundering, after the Black Diamond corrupted Aurilandur)). Frey, Freya, and Njörðr were taken as part of a bargain to end the war (between the Fey and Giants), which threatened to destroy all the Feywild - they are 'hostages' (but well-kept, like how they did things in Medieval chivalry with the sons of other nobles). In fact, I think Njörðr is the same being as Ukko (Finnish), Poseidon (who actually gets an obscure mention in Realmslore), and Deep Sashelas (which makes perfect sense - he is a fey power even in the Norse). The Romans called him Neptune, an he most-often depicted with pointy ears.

And he may be the father of Umberlee, whom I suspect is yet another forgotten Yuir Totem.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jun 2013 15:10:46
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  15:19:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Great stuff Brian!

So maybe there's an Autumn Queen and a Vernal Queen somewhere? Do they rule separate courts I wonder? Or maybe they are fey goddesses/archfey that are long dead. Long forgotten sisters of Titania.

They remind me somewhat of the Horae, also called the Hours, the Greek goddesses of the seasons, although the Greeks only had 3 I believe, which suggests that they divided the seasons differently, and so it's possible that the fey might too. Perhaps there were only 3 sisters or Sy’Nys’Pyenelath, although Brian's lore does mention four seasons.

I believe Verenestra was Titania's daughter. Perhaps there were 3 sisters and Titania originally had sort of a combined springy-summery portfolio and gave the spring part to Verenestra. Verenestra could be the Vernal Queen (spring queen? queen of green?) Although this is not totally satisfactory as Verenestra has not to my recollection been associated with that season and there's not much about her to make the connection. I can't find any other candidates, though. Perhaps Spring and Autumn are just lost gods.

Note that Mielikki has the portfolio of Autumn for the Realms, which suggests either that the fey god of Autumn died, merged with or surrendered her portfolio to Mielikki a long time ago. Or perhaps it simply means that the Autumn Queen's control of that portfolio in the Feywild does not extend into the material Realms.

Tiandra is the current Summer Queen of the Feywild. Not sure if that is another name for Titania or if Tiandra is a descendant of Titania. A different faerie queen named Rhiannon was mentioned in Dragon #155, so my inclination is to think they comprise a dynasty of very long-lived Summer Queens, several of whom have been named Titania. (Just as there have been multiple Henrys, Elizabeths, Caesars or Augustii).

Alternatively, Titania the goddess (if she's still around) may have ascended to godhood through worship by mortals in the material realms, possibly even by fey or even humans in the North region. Consequently her ascension precluded her from attending to her temporal duties as queen of the Summer Court, and thus she had to pass the governing of it on to her successors.

Interestingly, I read that Shakespeare actually invented Titania, and he supposedly got the name from Ovid's Metamorphoses, where the name Titania is more of a patronymic that refers to any daughter of the Titans.

Which begs the question. Perhaps the original Titania of the Seelie Court (I say original, because it could be a popular name taken by many successor queens) was the daughter of a fey (or archfey) and a dawn titan or primordial. It would be interesting if she rose to such greatness despite (or because of) being a halfbreed.




Lathander is lord of Spring, which makes me wonder if there isn't a lord and lady for each season. However, like you say, Mielikki took autumn from Myrkul who was a male. Auril would be winter. If Titania/Tiandra were the Queen of Summer, that would make for all 4 seasons.

I'd even say that there could be an Archfey/god(dess) of All Seasons. Silvanus and/or Chauntea could fall into that role. Not sure that I favor it, but its a thought.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Jun 2013 :  16:00:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aside from the four main 'Courts', there are probably numerous other courts, which mortals are less-aware of, and there is probably quite a bit of overlap between them. For instance, there is probably a 'lady of dreams' and a 'Nightmare King' (I closely associate Faerie with the Dreamlands). I assume a 'local lord' for each chain of islands (which corresponds to a world), and also three lords for each condition, corresponding to the Seelie, Unseelie, and twilight Courts (alignments in D&D).

Thus, there should be three lords for Winter - good, bad, and neutral. For example, 'Grandfather Winter' (the hogfather, etc) would be the good-aligned lord of Winter. Someone like Myrkul would rule its Twilight/neutral aspect (that all things must come to an end, so the cycle can begin anew), and someone like Auril would be the 'Winter Witch' (like the Ice Queen of Narnia).

Umberlee might represent Spring's 'flooding' aspect.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jun 2013 16:01:15
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Jun 2013 :  01:20:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Aside from the four main 'Courts', there are probably numerous other courts, which mortals are less-aware of, and there is probably quite a bit of overlap between them. For instance, there is probably a 'lady of dreams' and a 'Nightmare King' (I closely associate Faerie with the Dreamlands). I assume a 'local lord' for each chain of islands (which corresponds to a world), and also three lords for each condition, corresponding to the Seelie, Unseelie, and twilight Courts (alignments in D&D).

Thus, there should be three lords for Winter - good, bad, and neutral. For example, 'Grandfather Winter' (the hogfather, etc) would be the good-aligned lord of Winter. Someone like Myrkul would rule its Twilight/neutral aspect (that all things must come to an end, so the cycle can begin anew), and someone like Auril would be the 'Winter Witch' (like the Ice Queen of Narnia).

Umberlee might represent Spring's 'flooding' aspect.



See, this is what I was hoping they had fleshed out more with 4e. I would have loved to have seen the feywild fleshed out with a bunch of Archfey and various Courts as described. They could have been the counter to all the great and powerful demon lords (and still be challenges because they don't think like humans nor particularly care about Toril).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Quale
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Posted - 13 Jun 2013 :  14:19:41  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They did add a bunch of new archfey, but nothing as interesting as in Monster Mythology. The courts were, Winter, Summer, Gloaming, Sea, fomorians, and unaligned archfey.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Jun 2013 :  15:34:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

They did add a bunch of new archfey, but nothing as interesting as in Monster Mythology. The courts were, Winter, Summer, Gloaming, Sea, fomorians, and unaligned archfey.



Was this done in Dragon or something else? I ask because I recently and rather quickly reviewed through a lot of the 4E dragons. I did see the Auril article and I saw a prince of Frost one. I didn't see these others (though I must admit to skimming the table of contents just to get an idea of what was in them... catching up on about 4 years of backlogged dragon magazines will take some time).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 14 Jun 2013 :  14:02:53  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This guy put together "The Feywild Codex" a pretty comprehensive compilation of all the 4e Feywild players, places & polities. It's a nice list, and a good reference:

http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/the-feywild-codex
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Jun 2013 :  14:04:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Great stuff Brian!

So maybe there's an Autumn Queen and a Vernal Queen somewhere? Do they rule separate courts I wonder? Or maybe they are fey goddesses/archfey that are long dead. Long forgotten sisters of Titania.

They remind me somewhat of the Horae, also called the Hours, the Greek goddesses of the seasons, although the Greeks only had 3 I believe, which suggests that they divided the seasons differently, and so it's possible that the fey might too. Perhaps there were only 3 sisters or Sy’Nys’Pyenelath, although Brian's lore does mention four seasons.

I believe Verenestra was Titania's daughter. Perhaps there were 3 sisters and Titania originally had sort of a combined springy-summery portfolio and gave the spring part to Verenestra. Verenestra could be the Vernal Queen (spring queen? queen of green?) Although this is not totally satisfactory as Verenestra has not to my recollection been associated with that season and there's not much about her to make the connection. I can't find any other candidates, though. Perhaps Spring and Autumn are just lost gods.

Note that Mielikki has the portfolio of Autumn for the Realms, which suggests either that the fey god of Autumn died, merged with or surrendered her portfolio to Mielikki a long time ago. Or perhaps it simply means that the Autumn Queen's control of that portfolio in the Feywild does not extend into the material Realms.

Tiandra is the current Summer Queen of the Feywild. Not sure if that is another name for Titania or if Tiandra is a descendant of Titania. A different faerie queen named Rhiannon was mentioned in Dragon #155, so my inclination is to think they comprise a dynasty of very long-lived Summer Queens, several of whom have been named Titania. (Just as there have been multiple Henrys, Elizabeths, Caesars or Augustii).

Alternatively, Titania the goddess (if she's still around) may have ascended to godhood through worship by mortals in the material realms, possibly even by fey or even humans in the North region. Consequently her ascension precluded her from attending to her temporal duties as queen of the Summer Court, and thus she had to pass the governing of it on to her successors.

Interestingly, I read that Shakespeare actually invented Titania, and he supposedly got the name from Ovid's Metamorphoses, where the name Titania is more of a patronymic that refers to any daughter of the Titans.

Which begs the question. Perhaps the original Titania of the Seelie Court (I say original, because it could be a popular name taken by many successor queens) was the daughter of a fey (or archfey) and a dawn titan or primordial. It would be interesting if she rose to such greatness despite (or because of) being a halfbreed.




Lathander is lord of Spring, which makes me wonder if there isn't a lord and lady for each season. However, like you say, Mielikki took autumn from Myrkul who was a male. Auril would be winter. If Titania/Tiandra were the Queen of Summer, that would make for all 4 seasons.

I'd even say that there could be an Archfey/god(dess) of All Seasons. Silvanus and/or Chauntea could fall into that role. Not sure that I favor it, but its a thought.



Just noticed, Chauntea has summer, and Angharradh also has spring.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Jun 2013 :  14:06:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

This guy put together "The Feywild Codex" a pretty comprehensive compilation of all the 4e Feywild players, places & polities. It's a nice list, and a good reference:

http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/the-feywild-codex



Thank you Gray. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Quale
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Posted - 14 Jun 2013 :  15:19:55  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

This guy put together "The Feywild Codex" a pretty comprehensive compilation of all the 4e Feywild players, places & polities. It's a nice list, and a good reference:

http://www.neuroglyphgames.com/the-feywild-codex



Thank you Gray. This is exactly what I was looking for.



Also

Dragon 406 has short descriptions of Eachthighern and Maiden of the Moon.

Dragon 420 – full article on Carrion King (Psilofyr).

Dungeon 205 – The Trinket Lord – gnome archfey.

Dungeon 211 – adventure, at the end you meet Tiandra and Oran.
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Bladewind
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Netherlands
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Posted - 14 Jun 2013 :  16:02:19  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh, I like the James Bro's lore parts about Fury's Heart and it being part of the House of Nature, like in ancient times. Perhaps the Deities of Fury had waged a war previously on the domain of Silvanus, conquering a piece of the House of Nature by wrecking it with unbalanced elemental magics. If I'd but a time on the creation of the Fury's Heart I'd peg it into the late eons of the Founding Times (around -3 to -5 000 DR).

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

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Markustay
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Posted - 15 Jun 2013 :  14:19:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the things I really like about 4e is that they 'downsized' the planer structure - I did that myself quite some time ago. I have always felt it was weird that there were more (major) planes (on The Wheel) then there were alignments for them. Thats why I did THIS. What I didn't like was that they took it another step further and reduced the alignments themselves.

So I shoe-horned quite a bit of the planes together, and now refer to these regions (previously known as planes themselves) as 'Domains', and they work much the way godly domains do (or the Domains in Ravenloft - each has its own set of specific rules, within the greater structure of the over-plane itself).

Thus, 'The Happy Hunting Grounds' and 'The Beastlands' were always part of the Feywild, which represents the First world in all its primal glory. Several pantheons also have major connections to that plane - The Norse, The Celtic, the Elven, and the Greco-Roman. Thus, the Greek and Elven pantheons have always been 'neighbors', being the quickest route between their domains was a short trek across part of the Feywild (which would be Arboria on my version of the Great Wheel - I did that quite some time ago, before the Feywild even existed). Also, 'The Great Wheel' itself is just a symbolic map - the truth of how the planes are positioned in the multiverse is way beyond mortal (or even deity) understanding. Each of the major planes has a major portal (the 'Gate Towns') that leads to The Outlands, which is 'neutral ground' (and which I also use as my version of The Fugue - I don't use the FR version of death and the afterlife... its just too nonsensical for my tastes).

EDIT: Once again, a topic here at the Keep has got me re-thinking a few things. If I combine my older idea of the 'Nine Major Planes' with my newer concept of Dimensions, then there should be two more Major planes not represented by my model (thus giving us 11). 'The World' (the Prime Material) and the Shadowfel should be the other two. Not sure how I can represent that in a 2D or even 3D model - I'd need at least one more dimension to represent how the feywild, Shadowfel, and Material planes all interrelate (since I also came up with THIS arrangement awhile back).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jun 2013 14:29:16
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Quale
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Posted - 19 Jun 2013 :  16:21:40  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a good idea if you want to simplify the cosmology, the Beastlands, Faerie, and Arborea all in one place. Tough I still haven't found a name for it, Feywild is not good enough.
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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 20 Jun 2013 :  00:14:28  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For the Forgotten Realms, the House of Nature (now the Deep Wilds) is sort of a combined Beastlands, Elysium, Arcadia, Bytopia, Arborea and Plane of Concordant Opposition. Although, it has no alignment properties. It is an Astral reflection of the natural world. And it is probably the 2nd divine plane to come into being in the cosmos.

The first, of course, was Selûne's Gates of the Moon. I assume she and Shar shared that together, until they fell out, and that Shar never had a place of her own before she withdrew into the Plane of Shadow.

The House of Nature was formed by Chauntea at the dawn of life on Toril, when she was the goddess of life for the whole world. Most all the nature divinities had a home in the House of Nature, and many planes that are separate today once had their start as a part of that plane before they split off.

Fury's heart, for instance, was part of the House of Nature before the Gods of Fury wrenched it away to liberate themselves from Chauntea's sovereignty.

Chauntea's handmaiden, Othea, a demigoddess or primal spirit of a mountain in the North, had a small dominion in the House of Nature. When the interloper god Annam wed her, and they spawned the giant races of Toril, her realm came to be called Jotunheim.

The interloper Corellon and the Seldarine first settled in the House of Nature when they came to the Realms cosmos. In fact, they claimed territory that was also claimed by Annam, and the Seldarine fought wars with the Giant pantheon over the boundaries of Arvandor, which is why Arvandor is littered with the ruins of giant castles to this day.

Annam and Othea separated their dominion from the House of Nature, thus forming the separate plane of Jotunheim, in order to retreat from the face of elven aggression, nurse their injured pride and fortify their remaining borders.

The interloper goddess Tyche had settled in the House of Nature, right next to Arvandor, on a mountain which she came to call Olympus, after the home of her former pantheon. Tyche, however, got along much better with her neighbors the Seldarine, and at some point, together they too separated their dominions from the House of Nature to form the dual plane of Olympus/Arvandor, which was sometimes known jointly as Arborea.

After Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora, the fighting between them became so intense, that the Seldarine teamed with Tymora to banish Beshaba from the plane (or did she flee?) taking the top half of the former Mount Olympus with her to form Beshaba's Blood Tor, now relocated to the Barrens of Doom and Despair.

Tymora was left with a roughly circular plateau, which she called her Great Wheel of Luck. It was on this plateau that the city of Brightwater sprang up. After Suné and Lliira came to live there, the city of Brightwater grew to occupy the entire plateau and environs beyond. Each goddess's area came to be referred to as a quarter of the city, and so Tymora's domain came to be called the Quarter of the Great Wheel, Lliira's the Quarter of the Orange Lanterns, and Sunés realm the Heartfire Quarter.

Brightwater, as a plane, separated from Arvandor only very recently. The Planescape box set Planes of Chaos, Book of Chaos p.48 tells us that "Brightwater is only 50 years old." I'm not sure of the exact date in the Realms chronology that Planes of Chaos was intended to line up with, but I put it only a few years after the Time of Troubles. Figuring that the 3 goddesses of Brightwater and the Seldarine would part amicably after a great celebration, I dated the separation of the two planes to Shieldmeet in the Year of the Griffon, 1312 DR, at the feast of Cinaelos’ Cor — a festival of great importance in elven culture.

Cases can be made that several other planes began as part of the House of Nature and then divided from the parent plane. The Fated Depths may have begun as a sea in the House of Nature until the Great School pantheon separated it to form a plane of their own.

The interloper gods of the dwarves, halflings and gnomes probably first took residence in the House of Nature before splitting off to form Dwarfhome, Green Fields and the Golden Hills.

Deep Caverns was surely once the underdark beneath the surface of the House of Nature.

Even the planes of the interloper monster gods, Dragon Eyrie, Nishrek, and Clangor, were probably once torn from the House of Nature.

I don't think the Feywild has anything to do with the House of Nature, though. The House of Nature is an Astral reflection of the realms as created by Chauntea and maintained by her divine will and that of all the nature gods that have resided there through the ages. The Feywild is a different type of reflection of the material plane, but it is a mortal plane, not a divine one.

It is likely that the House of Nature is the same "Spirit World" that you can directly access from the geographic regions of Kara-Tur in lieu of the Astral sea (see The Player's Guide to Faerûn p. 165). Or perhaps within the geographical region of Kara-Tur, the Astral Sea has been reified by the collective psyche of the people of Kara-Tur into a landscape that bridges seamlessly into the House of Nature. Or, it could have something to do with the ancient Imaskari god barrier that prevented access to the Astral sea somehow, another strong possibility I think.
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Quale
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Posted - 20 Jun 2013 :  13:33:33  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

For the Forgotten Realms, the House of Nature (now the Deep Wilds) is sort of a combined Beastlands, Elysium, Arcadia, Bytopia, Arborea and Plane of Concordant Opposition. Although, it has no alignment properties. It is an Astral reflection of the natural world. And it is probably the 2nd divine plane to come into being in the cosmos.

The first, of course, was Selûne's Gates of the Moon. I assume she and Shar shared that together, until they fell out, and that Shar never had a place of her own before she withdrew into the Plane of Shadow.

It is likely that the House of Nature is the same "Spirit World" that you can directly access from the geographic regions of Kara-Tur in lieu of the Astral sea (see The Player's Guide to Faerûn p. 165). Or perhaps within the geographical region of Kara-Tur, the Astral Sea has been reified by the collective psyche of the people of Kara-Tur into a landscape that bridges seamlessly into the House of Nature. Or, it could have something to do with the ancient Imaskari god barrier that prevented access to the Astral sea somehow, another strong possibility I think.



From a FR perspective it may appear that the Gates of the Moon and others are planes, but they are just realms of known powers, beyond them there is an infinity. While the realms are now connected with the Astral, I don't think that was at the beginning. True Astral is a void, everything there is an interloper, the Astral Sea are distilled thoughts that crept into the void, shapeable by belief. All the planes formed in the Ethereal, including the Demiplane of Shadow and the Realms crystal sphere. The Spirit World is a collective name for in Kara-Tur for the Outer Planes, the Celestial Bureaucracy did not move because a small percentage of their worshippers moved to another crystal sphere.

quote:
I don't think the Feywild has anything to do with the House of Nature, though. The House of Nature is an Astral reflection of the realms as created by Chauntea and maintained by her divine will and that of all the nature gods that have resided there through the ages. The Feywild is a different type of reflection of the material plane, but it is a mortal plane, not a divine one.


The Seelie Court travels between the Beastlands, Arborea, and Ysgard, and considering the 4e changes on fey I'd not call its rulers divine, but archfey. No outer plane is wholly divine, it makes no sense that an overgod creates crystal spheres while its underlings can make infinitely larger universes. It is similar to Cyric declaring himself the ruler of Pandemonium/The Supreme Throne, but really ruling a ruined castle and 100 miles around it. I don't think that such a huge plane composed of Faerie, Dream, Beastlands, spiritworlds etc. should be just a reflection of the material, the reflection should only be border/coterminous areas. The plane as a whole should be transitive, between mortal, dead, and elemental planes.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2013 :  04:10:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

For the Forgotten Realms, the House of Nature (now the Deep Wilds) is sort of a combined Beastlands, Elysium, Arcadia, Bytopia, Arborea and Plane of Concordant Opposition. Although, it has no alignment properties. It is an Astral reflection of the natural world. And it is probably the 2nd divine plane to come into being in the cosmos.

The first, of course, was Selûne's Gates of the Moon. I assume she and Shar shared that together, until they fell out, and that Shar never had a place of her own before she withdrew into the Plane of Shadow.

The House of Nature was formed by Chauntea at the dawn of life on Toril, when she was the goddess of life for the whole world. Most all the nature divinities had a home in the House of Nature, and many planes that are separate today once had their start as a part of that plane before they split off.

Fury's heart, for instance, was part of the House of Nature before the Gods of Fury wrenched it away to liberate themselves from Chauntea's sovereignty.

Chauntea's handmaiden, Othea, a demigoddess or primal spirit of a mountain in the North, had a small dominion in the House of Nature. When the interloper god Annam wed her, and they spawned the giant races of Toril, her realm came to be called Jotunheim.

The interloper Corellon and the Seldarine first settled in the House of Nature when they came to the Realms cosmos. In fact, they claimed territory that was also claimed by Annam, and the Seldarine fought wars with the Giant pantheon over the boundaries of Arvandor, which is why Arvandor is littered with the ruins of giant castles to this day.

Annam and Othea separated their dominion from the House of Nature, thus forming the separate plane of Jotunheim, in order to retreat from the face of elven aggression, nurse their injured pride and fortify their remaining borders.

The interloper goddess Tyche had settled in the House of Nature, right next to Arvandor, on a mountain which she came to call Olympus, after the home of her former pantheon. Tyche, however, got along much better with her neighbors the Seldarine, and at some point, together they too separated their dominions from the House of Nature to form the dual plane of Olympus/Arvandor, which was sometimes known jointly as Arborea.

After Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora, the fighting between them became so intense, that the Seldarine teamed with Tymora to banish Beshaba from the plane (or did she flee?) taking the top half of the former Mount Olympus with her to form Beshaba's Blood Tor, now relocated to the Barrens of Doom and Despair.

Tymora was left with a roughly circular plateau, which she called her Great Wheel of Luck. It was on this plateau that the city of Brightwater sprang up. After Suné and Lliira came to live there, the city of Brightwater grew to occupy the entire plateau and environs beyond. Each goddess's area came to be referred to as a quarter of the city, and so Tymora's domain came to be called the Quarter of the Great Wheel, Lliira's the Quarter of the Orange Lanterns, and Sunés realm the Heartfire Quarter.

Brightwater, as a plane, separated from Arvandor only very recently. The Planescape box set Planes of Chaos, Book of Chaos p.48 tells us that "Brightwater is only 50 years old." I'm not sure of the exact date in the Realms chronology that Planes of Chaos was intended to line up with, but I put it only a few years after the Time of Troubles. Figuring that the 3 goddesses of Brightwater and the Seldarine would part amicably after a great celebration, I dated the separation of the two planes to Shieldmeet in the Year of the Griffon, 1312 DR, at the feast of Cinaelos’ Cor — a festival of great importance in elven culture.

Cases can be made that several other planes began as part of the House of Nature and then divided from the parent plane. The Fated Depths may have begun as a sea in the House of Nature until the Great School pantheon separated it to form a plane of their own.

The interloper gods of the dwarves, halflings and gnomes probably first took residence in the House of Nature before splitting off to form Dwarfhome, Green Fields and the Golden Hills.

Deep Caverns was surely once the underdark beneath the surface of the House of Nature.

Even the planes of the interloper monster gods, Dragon Eyrie, Nishrek, and Clangor, were probably once torn from the House of Nature.

I don't think the Feywild has anything to do with the House of Nature, though. The House of Nature is an Astral reflection of the realms as created by Chauntea and maintained by her divine will and that of all the nature gods that have resided there through the ages. The Feywild is a different type of reflection of the material plane, but it is a mortal plane, not a divine one.

It is likely that the House of Nature is the same "Spirit World" that you can directly access from the geographic regions of Kara-Tur in lieu of the Astral sea (see The Player's Guide to Faerûn p. 165). Or perhaps within the geographical region of Kara-Tur, the Astral Sea has been reified by the collective psyche of the people of Kara-Tur into a landscape that bridges seamlessly into the House of Nature. Or, it could have something to do with the ancient Imaskari god barrier that prevented access to the Astral sea somehow, another strong possibility I think.




really liking this idea. Especially the part about the House of nature and feywild NOT being related. It makes for the gods and the archfey truly being separate entities (granted, we do have some crossovers).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2013 :  13:30:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For a story-setting, perhaps there's no such thing as 'too much', but similar regions should be combined, IMHO, in an RPG setting - what I can do in the House of nature I can do in the Feywild. I do not need both. My Feywild is a massive series of archipelagos - similar in look to Earthsea, but a million times more vast, with chains of islands forming into super-archipelagos (in lieu of continents). That set-up gives me the ability to have many different things in the Feywild that don't necessarily interact. Considering that planes are near-infinite, there is no reason why tons of beings can't be in one and never, ever meet. Understand that my Feywild is not the canon one, so the 'seas' between the land-masses are more like the 'Ethereal seas'. The same voyage between two islands could take a day, a month, or a year - there are so many variables. Navigating my Feywild is similar to navigating space in SJ.

So there is one insanely huge plane/dimension, with many 'Realms' - Domains akin to both RL-type domains (with Archfey and other lords), and Godly Domains. As of now, every island is its own domain. These would be like pockets within that plane where certain beings hold sway, which isn't all that different then how it is in canon (I just reduce the number of planes all of this happens in).

In fact, FR has a similar set-up - we just call them Mythals and Mythalars (and there are probably other types, such as Drow spell-webs). A Mythal is sort-of a mortal version of a 'Domain', where a person or group of persons creates their own local physics (rules).

So gods can dwell "on high", on Mountain tops and in cloud castles, etc... but that doesn't change the fact that they live in the same planes as all those similarly-based creatures. I just don't need more then one 'woods between the worlds'. I've even done the same with 'The Hells' - there are three planes (one for each evil alignment), and each has three layers (thus giving me Nine). One is ruled by Asmodeus (LE), one is ruled by Lucifaer (Hades - NE), and one is ruled by Satan (CE). Although Satan is usually just payed lip-service by all the other powerful archdemons (so its a kind of 'in name only' rulership). Within those, there are many domains as well.

But then again, my planer model, campaign, and settings keep drifting further and further away from any sort of canon, so maybe its time for me to move on.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jun 2013 12:11:19
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2013 :  15:57:06  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My Feywild is more like the Demiplane of Dread but of course, more wild.

The Demiplane of Dread has its mists that allow one (if they haven't attracted the attention of the Dark Powers) to travel to another domain on the plane. My Feywild uses the Fey Crossroads system to let one travel to a different natural terrain as long as the Crossroads Guardian doesn't have some reason to stop one from doing so. The Crossroads are placed essentially at random, so finding them is a lot trickier than locating one of the mist borders.

Each section of natural terrain is rougly the size of the High Forest (except for the archipelagos which I also have), though in game terms they're essentially infinite. As with the intrusion on Toril from Abeir, I've had some parts of the Feywild intrude on the House of Nature, however the Crossroads links are still there so one might enter a Crossroads from a desert to a forest, walk a few feet then find themselves in Silvanus' Astral Dominion and hardly notice until they come upon their first petitioner.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2013 :  13:08:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that's pretty-much how I picture it as well, except I am concentrating more of the 'Islands of Dread' aspect.

Originally I had pictured a central, 'core' continent (very much like RL), but I gave that up for awhile, and now am not sure if I should have one or not. I like the idea, but it doesn't fit well with my central concept (that each small chain of islands corresponds to the continents on some world). I am now thinking it might be better to have some worlds physically connected by land in the Feywild (Thus, you could walk between Earth and Toril).

Still not sure though - both ways of doing it have merits.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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