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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 11:17:34
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| Doesn't Nimbral already fit the role of a Halruaan island? :p |
Edited by - deserk on 13 Jul 2013 11:30:55 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 11:59:36
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| Hmm some very interesting info on this scroll. Definitely made me more interested in the Sundering. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 13:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Doesn't Nimbral already fit the role of a Halruaan island? :p
True. However it is quite far from where Halruaa was, AFAIK. So maybe they and the halruaan survivors (if any...) started another one where the main realm was, as an outpost for the rebuilding.
Btw, what did the Spellplague do to Nimbral? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 05:29:51
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I think Forgotten Realms began to have problems at some point in the 3rd Edition. Nothing comparable to what was done in 4th Edition, but the third, I was thinking the setting very different from what I had known and charmed the 1st and 2nd edition.
I think it's lack of imagination all these "returns of..." Netheril, Imaskar, elves, Sammaster, dragons, etc., that have occurred in recent years. Many great histories of the past Realms were reused in the present. For me, it takes away the magic of these histories. I like these histories of Faerun in the past, not the present.
When I started playing in the Forgotten Realms, one of the things I liked most was the feeling of being an old world, very old, full of places to be explored. In the third edition, the past was so present due to these "returns" that I no longer felt that sense of ancestry Realms. All was very vibrant, modern and spectacular in the third edition. It seems to me that it was a way to appeal to sell more books, sacrificing the souls of the Realms. In the 1st and 2nd Edition, the world was more realistic, and somehow more palpable. It's hard to explain, but the setting was more nicer.
Finally, I never understood what was the point of killing icons characters of Realms. I was still mourning Azoun when Khelben and Halaster were also killed. This just to name a few.
I honestly do not know how they could fix the Realms without making a retcom of chronology. But I will hope ...
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 10:01:09
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who needs a retcon
we have.....maaaaggggiiicccc |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 13:40:56
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| And Ao. Everything fixed like np... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 17:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would love it if they did what I did - move all of that north, around The Inner Sea - much more useful to me that way.
I wouldn't mind them moving things around a bit but how would they reasonably explain such moves? The last thing I want is arbitrary changes to the Realms AGAIN. And honestly, this needs to be the last RSE evereverever.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd like to see the Halruaan refugees come down from the clouds and form a new little country in 5E. An island nation would be a good option, that way their skyship dynamic could remain intact. They would simply have a new home base on terra firm.
YES, an island somewhere around Sespech, in the old Northern Shaar region (perhaps where Shareach used to be, or even a bit north from that, where Red Hand of Doom took place, around Lake Lhespen). Its fairly easy to get an island around there somewhere - and now to address what Arcanamach said that I quoted above: 4e changed A LOT. 5e has something called 'The Sundering', which they have admitted will be the "mother of all RSE's" (and hopefully the very last one we will see). From the artwork someone linked elsewhere, and what has been said (at Gencon and elsewhere), it appears Abeir and Toril are going to re-merge, if only for a little while. We have newly (re?)built canal right by Innarlith - I am sure all sorts of 'badness' could happen to that during the Sundering, flooding certain areas and giving us a nice route between the inner and outer seas. Lots of potential there, me thinks.
What that means is that this is their golden opportunity to 'fix' all those things they tried to fix with 4e, but only managed to piss everyone off in the process. Useful things that were too far can now be brought closer. I gave one example above for Halruaa (applying what Krash said), but here's another: Luiren got hit with a Tsunami, and although many hin tried to rebuild in what was left, many more fled north to more stable regions, around the Inner sea, and started a brand-new halfling nation...
Anywhere we want to put it - along the north shore of the Gulthmere Forest region, as Dalor Dardern and I had done? There were at least two other areas that would make sense - regions that former lore supports; Sunset Vale and Greenest (although I personally prefer everything around the Inner sea, but thats just me).
This can be applied to whatever we want - the Dambrathi fleeing in their ships to somewhere else, etc. The coast was destroyed, but it does not mean those cultures wouldn't want to rebuild elsewhere. 4e broke things, but they were on the right track - there were things that needed 'fixing' to make them more useful.
So while I do love the 'classic Realms', I am also no longer a 'purist'. If they can make changes that make sense, and bring more of FR's far-flunged lore closer together, then thats a good thing, IMHO. If anyone can do that, it is Ed. His original solution to that particular problem was the portal network, but for whatever reason WotC did not want to embrace that, so instead of the more logical dispersion Ed had, we have to clump stuff together...
Or we could just go back to the OGB and use the damn portals Ed setup in the first place.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2014 00:22:15 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 04:22:09
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This isn't the only quote I am responding to, but I see a lot of posts with similar opinions to the one below and I am not sure that all RSEs are bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
5e has something called 'The Sundering', which they have admitted will be the "mother of all RSE's" (and hopefully the very last one we will see).
I think several of the RSE actually overall benefited FR by changing things up slightly. I hope going forward that there are no more events that are of the magnitude of the Time of Troubles, 4e transition and the third Sundering. However, I think every 3-5 years having a major event handle in the same manner as the Third Sundering keeps the setting fresh and gives the novels interesting material to cover.
To Clarify, below is what I think makes a good RSE:
Products:
-Novels describing the change
-Official Adventures during the change(may or may not have an effect on the outcome)
-At least 1 source book covering the change.
Traits:
-While the movers and shakers participate in the events, they do not solve all the problems(For instance the above adventures are not officially resolved, or are resolved with X was defeated by a band of adventurers/heroes)
-Very important the 3-5 IRL years seperating the event giving a fair amount of groups a chance to process the event before another starts(Obiviously, games running for 20 irl years are very going to make use of RSE, but with the above timeframe groups running 1-3 year campaigns could choose to periodically participate in a new RSE).
Additional Comments:
As far as how big an event, I think that Lolth's Silence, Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal and Shade conquering Sembia are all examples of what could have be good RSEs. Not all of the above items had the proper support, but I think the base ideas have the potential to be good.
The largest scale RSE that I can currently envision would be an invasion from Abeir via portals, or an invasion of Abeir via portals. However, I think wars between major countries or trading organizations could be good RSEs as well(There are a lot of other relatively small scale RSE that could work demon/devil prince takes over a major location running the city but not making it exclusively populated by fiends, A deity becomes imprisoned by another deity/primordial/devil/demon). I think the sign of a successful implementation of a RSE is the presents of more loose ends after the event than were present before the event. Using RSEs to simply remove content or closing existing plot hook without adding anything to the game is when they are incredible destructive. Also, having too many RSE in quick succession, or all the same thing(Return of the Archwizards, Return of Imaskar, Return of ancient civilization X) are very harmful.
Basically, I think that having events that grow the setting and engage the player group are a good thing, but we need time to process them. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 04:57:16
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You can do all of those things without killing off most of the gods (which MANY players like) or actually nuking whole cultures (such as Halruaa). I don't think anyone is saying that there cant be MAJOR events taking place such as wars b/w major countries, but true RSEs should be incredibly rare and, IMO, are usually best left as something that occurred 'in the past' to give a campaign flavor.
What you are basically getting at (I think) is to keep the setting from becoming stagnant and products simply keeping the 'status quo' and I agree with you on that. But the types of changes that WotC implemented were HARMFUL to the setting and the product line in general. There is a reason why they are having to revisit the issue now. They screwed up in a major way. Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 15:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
who needs a retcon
we have.....maaaaggggiiicccc
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
And Ao. Everything fixed like np...
In my humble opinion ... could be any such thing. I wish only go back to the decade of 1370-DR. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 15:35:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would love it if they did what I did - move all of that north, around The Inner Sea - much more useful to me that way.
However, I understand that the 'traditionalists' among us would probably hate that, and want them right back the way the were (nearly useless, because they are so far away).
But I do agree that what was done to them in 4e was completely unintuitive and counter-productive. Why remove stuff just for the sake of doing it? It improved NOTHING.
I just gave them a portle network, so folks from the south could pop up in different places. Including under mountain. That was a fun early game plot of mine. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 17:56:03
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would love it if they did what I did - move all of that north, around The Inner Sea - much more useful to me that way.
However, I understand that the 'traditionalists' among us would probably hate that, and want them right back the way the were (nearly useless, because they are so far away).
But I do agree that what was done to them in 4e was completely unintuitive and counter-productive. Why remove stuff just for the sake of doing it? It improved NOTHING.
I'd like to see the Halruaan refugees come down from the clouds and form a new little country in 5E. An island nation would be a good option, that way their skyship dynamic could remain intact. They would simply have a new home base on terra firm.
-- George Krashos
Well, on that idea, the whole "United Tharchions of the Shaar" idea that I had presented, where its a new nation not as inherently evil (and geographically separated by the great rift) would fit this bill well. Some of the Tharchs might be like old Halruaa and even include Halruaans (in fact, my viewpoint is that ex Thayans and ex-Halruaans and imports from Zakhara should make up the country). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 00:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The Politics of 5th Edition Forgotten Realms: Okay, this all begins back in 2006 when the changes to the Realms were being revealed to the authors. Salvatore and presumably the other authors were called in and basically told what the changes were going to be; they weren't consulted at all. So it was a major shock. They were basically told, "Hey guess what, we're advancing the world 100 years." Salvatore was very, very, very upset. Since over half his main characters were human, he basically didn't see how it could work for him. In his words, "140 year old humans don't fight very well." Salvatore wrote a really long letter to several Senior Editors at WotC pleading with them to reconsider the 4E changes, but clearly it fell on deaf ears.
Sales/product management people shoving bad ideas down everyone's throat - now that sounds familiar :)
As a dev in a big corporation, I sometimes wonder if these people launch these bs ideas because they just wanted to do something different so they can be put something seemingly impress into their business portfolio.
RESUME of James Wyatt
...
Business Achievements:
- Spearheaded large scale innovative changes in campaign settings
- Inspired writers and designers to re-invent stagnated product lines
- Commander in chief in product transformation process
...
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 00:12:52
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| By the way, what's the current state of The Sundering? What's happened? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 00:28:08
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Won't know until The Sundering novel series is finished and we get a peak at the 5eFR setting guide, if and when that gets released (I am hoping right around the same time as D&Dnext, and that the two are tied intrinsically together... otherwise I see some major fail headed our way).
Settings tied directly to the rules just work better. Thats was one of the oddest things about 3e - the rules were wrapped around a world they were no longer supporting. 
On the other hand, 4e's rules were wrapped around some sort of weird 'non-world' campaign setting, which probably looked good on paper, but in execution, not so much. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2014 00:30:18 |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 00:30:38
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| The finest D&D is at AD&D |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 02:05:41
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Read the books to catch what is going on with the Sundering. The series really seems to be gaining momentum. I just finished The Sentinel last night and am loving the stories these writers are telling in the Realms.
Truly starting to believe that 5E Realms is going to be the best yet! And I'll support that with my wallet. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 16 Feb 2014 02:16:07 |
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Vyrdallen
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 02:22:24
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| Eilserus, how did you read the Sentinel? |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 02:47:50
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I read a review copy. And it's a fantastic novel, so are the rest in the series. I know myself and many others were screaming bloody murder when 4E came out and all I can say is from what I've seen from this series so far we really REALLY need to support this as the Realms moves into 5E.
A hardcover novel is about $30 bucks in stores, and half the time Barnes and Noble has 20% off new books, and if you have a membership card it's another 10% off. Or order on Amazon, get a discount there too. So really a person is looking at a little over $20 bucks for some good entertainment. I don't like to sound like a salesman, but I've been reading and playing in the Realms for over 20 years and I want 5E Realms to succeed.
On a different note, I really hope we get a meaty 5E Campaign Guide like the 3E book. They should include a Free month to D&D Insider or something to hook people and new customers on Dragon and Dungeon. Which I'm hoping are back in publication by then. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 03:16:11
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The only FR books I ever bought hardcover were the Omnibus editions, and The Annotated Elminster. I was going to make an exception for the Sundering novels, but only because I got a B&N giftcard for Christmas.
The two times I've checked my B&N didn't have them, and now I've spent almost half of the giftcard, so it looks like I'll have to wait until they come out in paperback.
If I am still interested in FR by then......
Part of me really wants to make it to Gencon this year (its definitely do-able), just to see what sort of announcements they're gonna make, but then part of me asks, "why?" Its not like I'm not going to know whatever happens there within 24 hrs anyway, and I could save myself around a $1000. Nearly anyone I wanted to meet I met the last time (except for maybe George Krashos), so even my inner fanboi is satisfied.
Hmmmm... I think GK is gonna make it this year; is Steven Schend gonna be there? That could make the difference for me. As for the Sundering and FR... *meh*... We'll all know soon enough. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 07:32:05
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I'm a definite this year. Everything is booked and paid for. I'm going to be really cruel and prevail on Steven's sweet nature by guilt tripping him into coming as well!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 17:40:53
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| Now we just need to get Eric Boyd to join us. Work your magic George! |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 02:54:24
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| now that's one good way to tempt me into showing up... GK, ELB, SS, BRJ, and Ed all available to visit. I think the last GenCon I went to was around 2000... but I really want to hear what's happening this time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 07:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This was very very good. I especially liked the portion from the Draconomicon. However, there's at least one problem with the lore, so I'm going to list it out in hopes of getting some possible clarity.
The tears of Selune were formed 4800 years ago (roughly) according to the realmspace supplement, page 29
"The Tears of Selune one day just appeared, apparently from nowhere. The different cultures of Toril have their own versions of what happened.
Written in the Shou Lung scrolls of history, over 4800 years back, an astronomer looking up toward Selune, mapping its surface, reported seeing many objects suddenly "pop" into existence. Tremendous tidal waves on all of Toril's oceans commenced.
The info in the Realmspace supplement isn't backed up by Realmslore. I like that book, and I'm a huge Spelljammer fan, but I think that pretty much all of the Toril/Selūne lore from that book should not be included in Realmslore.
Well... yes...
And the red dragons' obscure myth from "Draconomicon" is connected any better? 
Aslo, there was a story somewhere about the dragons blasting chunks out of Selune while trying to zap a comet (the King-Killer Star, that is).
Then again, the myth may fit as a distorted account of the event mixed with something else. Or a story from another place long before a certain rain of big eggs over Toril, for that matter... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 10:56:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Aslo, there was a story somewhere about the dragons blasting chunks out of Selune while trying to zap a comet (the King-Killer Star, that is).
Then again, the myth may fit as a distorted account of the event mixed with something else. Or a story from another place long before a certain rain of big eggs over Toril, for that matter...
Is was from an account written by Kisonraathiisar. Grand History of the Realms p48. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2014 : 04:13:31
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| OP is beautiful. I enjoyed reading that post greatly. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 05:16:57
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Up until 4e, I really considered myself to have a firm grip on the vast majority of Faerunian lore. I have had fallen asleep with some wonderful work of "history" under my nose literally for decades (scary that I don't know RW history half as well!)
I was so unhappy at some point with what had occurred during 4e though that I actually gave up in disgust. I swear that reading the recent novels (and the wonderful summing up in the OP here) has gotten me to go "all in" for 5e. I am looking forward to waking up again with the smell of parchment under my nose. This really is all such wonderful news and my hopes are high.
Here's the thing though, I need some catching up. I have noticed how in almost every single post that references FR History, GHotR is (rightfully) referenced. Is there anything that has a similar format created officially or by fans that continues the GH? Wouldn't this be a great time for an update like that? I am sure that I'm not going to be the only return (I guess Ao reinstated me as well).
On another note, I have always enjoyed the richness of FR to the point where I never understand why ANYTHING is removed. There is no reason why Laerakond can't stay in this new edition AND Maztica can return, possibly a little further west. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 07:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have noticed how in almost every single post that references FR History, GHotR is (rightfully) referenced. Is there anything that has a similar format created officially or by fans that continues the GH? Wouldn't this be a great time for an update like that? I am sure that I'm not going to be the only return (I guess Ao reinstated me as well).
Brian James wrote some articles for the Wizards website that continue in a similar vein to the GHotR. He also blogged about some entries that didn't make it into the book and those articles. I've also been (slowly) uploading the lore not found in the GHotR onto the FR wiki, though each year gets its own page so it's slower than reading a book or .PDF file. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 07:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have noticed how in almost every single post that references FR History, GHotR is (rightfully) referenced. Is there anything that has a similar format created officially or by fans that continues the GH? Wouldn't this be a great time for an update like that? I am sure that I'm not going to be the only return (I guess Ao reinstated me as well).
Brian James wrote some articles for the Wizards website that continue in a similar vein to the GHotR. He also blogged about some entries that didn't make it into the book and those articles. I've also been (slowly) uploading the lore not found in the GHotR onto the FR wiki, though each year gets its own page so it's slower than reading a book or .PDF file.
Lovely!
I hope that you (and Mr. James) continue until Toril's sun burns out. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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drkissinger1
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2014 : 00:05:32
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Beautifully done original post. I had a bit of a hiatus from FR and D&D in general for the past year or so in anticipation of the new edition, so I had no idea what had been going on in the transition from 4E to 5E. I do have a question, though: FR seems to be the default setting for 5E, at least as far as I can tell from the player's handbook. Are we still expecting a dedicated FR campaign setting sourcebook?
I'm mostly very excited about the Sundering; I just hope that a lot of these changes/restorations will be made somewhat elegantly. While Helm's death seemed rather pointless and only subtracted from the world (my guess is it was a concession to 4E's trimmed-down alignments), I kind of liked the idea of Amaunator being reborn from Lathander as a kind of chrysalis. The idea of an established church having to cope with the transformation of its god gave me some neat story hooks. That said, I don't mind Lathander's return; I just hope it can be given more dramatic weight than a divine mulligan.
EDIT: And what's this about a destroyed Netheril? Was this from one of the Sundering novels or an interview? |
Edited by - drkissinger1 on 08 Sep 2014 00:09:00 |
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The Lore and Politics of the Sundering (FR 5E)
