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Zsych
Acolyte
28 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2013 : 15:40:03
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Hi guys,
Haven't played FR in a while. I was wondering if there are interesting sourcebooks and novels for the 4E state of Thay and / or Netheril. Anything particularly cool known to be happening?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 16:43:48
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Hmm. A lot happened to Thay and Netheril in 4E. I will give the major (abridged) information, but be warned . . . they are spoilers of several novels.
Thay
Szass was not content to be one of the many “kings” ruling Thay—he wanted to be the only one. So he arranged a couple of events to unfold that ultimately led to the War of the Zulkirs. He took heavy losses, but in the end, he won, or rather partly won—because seizing Thay was just the first step to his ambition of becoming a god of all gods. . .
The eight schools of magic are gone, except Necromancy. So yes, you guess it right, half or more than half of the current population are walking dead.
The fate of the fallen zulkirs is partly left ambiguous—to give room for the possibility that they might rise again one day and reclaim their land . . .
Details of these events are found in The Haunted Lands trilogy by Richard Lee Byers. If you find it difficult to hunt down the individual books, then I suggest you just grab the omnibus edition.
Netheril/Shade
With subtle manipulation, and later, overt show of magical might, Shade was able to conquer Sembia, which now becomes its primary economic source.
Sakkors, the fallen enclave with a quasi-sentient mythallar, had been found and “reactivated” by the Shadovar. It’s now floating above Sembia.
Telamont continues to send agents across Faerun to search for more fallen enclaves. . .
Details of these events are found in Paul S. Kemp’s The Twilight War trilogy and RAS’s Neverwinter series. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 16:55:41
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Thay and the Shades are hostile towards each other and repeatedly had fights with each other for example about influence over Neverwinter and its region.
But there is no open war between them. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 17:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Thay and the Shades are hostile towards each other and repeatedly had fights with each other for example about influence over Neverwinter and its region.
But there is no open war between them.
Unless you consider the enclave that Shade came up with from somewhere and is actively attacking Thay with. That strikes me as open warfare.
That's in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 07:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Thay and the Shades are hostile towards each other and repeatedly had fights with each other for example about influence over Neverwinter and its region.
But there is no open war between them.
Unless you consider the enclave that Shade came up with from somewhere and is actively attacking Thay with. That strikes me as open warfare.
That's in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
Just wondering, since I haven't picked up the Neverwinter Campaign Setting and don't plan to.... not big on 4e... are they attacking Thay itself, or are they attacking Thay's foothold in Neverwinter? If they're attacking Thay itself, do they specify a portion? Any chance someone could type up that section? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 08:47:33
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They are having, as Wooly stated, an floating fortress, Kolthunral that is in open hostilities with the forces of Thay, laying siege to Surcross. The Shade and Thay are fighting battles near Surcross. The presence of Thay in Neverwinter is explained by crossroads in the Shadowfell and there aswell the Shade are in competition with Thay through agents and undead.
The clash between Thay and Shade in Neverwinter is a extended reach of the war, even when it´s across the continent.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 11:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless you consider the enclave that Shade came up with from somewhere and is actively attacking Thay with. That strikes me as open warfare.
That's in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
Wow thats new to me cause I didn't read the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
Are there any novels covering this yet? The FR Wiki also states some interesting bits about a search for Ioulaum. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 13:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless you consider the enclave that Shade came up with from somewhere and is actively attacking Thay with. That strikes me as open warfare.
That's in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
Wow thats new to me cause I didn't read the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
Are there any novels covering this yet? The FR Wiki also states some interesting bits about a search for Ioulaum.
So far as I know, that blurb in the NCS is all of the available info. The origin of the enclave is not even discussed. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 09:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas(snip) If they're attacking Thay itself, do they specify a portion? Any chance someone could type up that section?
Here's a few paragraphs introducing that section:
quote:
Szass Tam never saw it coming. As fierce as the fighting had grown between his forces and the agents of Netheril, the regent still underestimated the severity of the conflict. It was far away, in the west, a territorial dispute over Shadowfell paths. That the Shadovar
might bring the fight to Thay was difficult to imagine.
That is, it was difficult until the day when Kolthunral, one of the Netherese flying enclaves, appeared from out of the clouds and began raining death upon the Thayan communities at the base of the great
escarpment.
In the months since, the war between Netheril and Thay has intensified around Kolthunral and Surcross, both in the air and on the ground. To date, the Shadovar have been unable to conquer Surcross - or the Thayan supply station at Veil - because Thay continues to send supplies and reinforcements. Yet neither has
Surcross been able to repulse the Netherese attack.
Szass Tam has not become personally involved, perhaps disinclined to elevate the conflict and thus draw in the other Princes of Shade. If the war grew large enough to pit all the rulers of Netheril against
him, the devastation that would result beggars the imagination. Then again, Szass Tam's refusal to involve himself and his lieutenants might be born of nothing more than a desire to see if Valindra Shadow·
mantle can handle the problems that her operations have spawned.
The reference to the Veil has something to do with a path through the Shadowfell from Thay to Neverwinter. I can't tell you more than that because, despite the fact that I am running a 4E campaign set in Neverwinter, I've got no interest in the Shadowfell portions so am ignoring that.
HTH. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 11:27:55
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Thank you VERY much. Now this finally draws my attention. Personally, what I'd love to see happen is this enclave effectively go rogue, make allies with the nearby country of High Imaskar (who are being displaced by the Mulhorandi who return), the exiled Thayan Enclaves, and possibly even rogue elements of Narfellian/Raumathari/Durthan origin (or even the down on their luck Halruaan mercenaries) who survived the recent attacks against Rashemi wychlaran and turn from the Eminence of Araunt. Since all of these groups are down on their luck except possibly the Netherese (I assume this will be the case for the High Imaskari) they would be amenable to an alliance to a degree. Essentially, Old Thay becomes refounded but with slightly different ethos and principles (primarily, not a focus on Mulan racial stock but rather magical might). If they took over portions of Thesk and Aglarond as well, such that they had areas that weren't so devastated by necromancy, that'd be even better. Of course, they'd try to recover the old land using skeletal slave labor (and the Netherese may be able to help with some of the magic that they were using to recover the desert.... though Thay's taint is more necromantic now).
I know there was a discussion of a civil war amongst the Netherese, I don't know if this was presented as an option, but this could be the first of such. It could either be a full-fledged civil war or a cold war with the Netherese claiming they control the new country, and the new country giving lip service while secretly subverting their ties to the Netherese. Assassination of the upper echelon of this new "Thay" would be common.
So, what to have happen to Szass Tam? Maybe he's forced to take up residence elsewhere without his powerbase. Velsharoon was of similar power level as him and he didn't control a country. He might take up residence in some old ruin in the Raurin desert or something similar. Or, maybe just maybe, someone frees him from the cursed artifact (the death moon orb) which has driven him to these lengths that he never dreamed of before, and he instead allies with this new state against the Netherese and is aghast at the devastation of his former country. Tam then decides he wants revenge on Larloch.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 11:42:59
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I refuse to call that “war” between Netheril and Thay. That is, until any of the princes and Szass Tam become personally involved. It’s more like an in-game story . . . where their lackeys frolic in the sun, playing tug-of-war. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 13:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I refuse to call that “war” between Netheril and Thay. That is, until any of the princes and Szass Tam become personally involved. It’s more like an in-game story . . . where their lackeys frolic in the sun, playing tug-of-war.
So it's not war if the leaders aren't personally involved? That's an interesting definition. I'm sure those fighting and dying on each side, at the orders of their leaders, will be delighted to know that besieging a city isn't really warfare if their respective top bananas aren't leading the fight. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 14:23:59
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There’s a difference between “I refuse to call it ‘war’” and “It’s not war”: POV. I’m not saying it’s not war per se. I just couldn’t care less—until the characters I’m interested in become personally involved. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 21:45:10
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| Interesting, although I'm curious how the shades aquired another enclave and how they are able to comit so much resources to attack Thay directly without risking loosing on other fronts. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 04:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Interesting, although I'm curious how the shades aquired another enclave and how they are able to comit so much resources to attack Thay directly without risking loosing on other fronts.
Ditto. But as I said, we don't have any information whatsoever on where this enclave came from -- and that really bothers me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 14:32:31
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I just can't get into the whole "Thay is on the West Coast now" thing. That entire storyline has no appeal to me whats so ever. Its like they needed to dump everything they could right next to Neverwinter. Its pretty damn heavy-handed.
They are very obviously depending on the love of the Video Game franchise to bring FR back, and I am just not seeing it. Then again, I am probably the only 'rabid fanboi' who has NEVER played any of the VG's, so I am not the target audience for the new Realms.
And I'm okay with that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 14:47:30
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| Apperently (at least to the FR wiki) Waterdeep drove the sahdes out of Neverwinter again |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just can't get into the whole "Thay is on the West Coast now" thing. That entire storyline has no appeal to me whats so ever. Its like they needed to dump everything they could right next to Neverwinter. Its pretty damn heavy-handed.
Szass Tam needs another sizable and untarnished land that would be the focus of the Dread Rings, after his failed attempt to activate them in Thay. Why he chose a land far away, a land where a lot of potential enemies reside nearby, remains a mystery . . . |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:15:43
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I would have to agree with Marusktay though. It does feel everything pulled into one, Asmodeus cultists,Netherese,Thay, Aboleths, local Gangs vs oppressive foreign Lord, Orcs, Drow.... Mind you it does offer alot of adventuring possibilities and your everyday heros can do a swing with his sword and hit someone who mad deserve it, but i really don´t see the appeal for Neverwinter by the "big players". Ok the Netherese do may have the enclave, i give them that, Aboleths doing their schemes ok, i can get that aswell but Asmodeus and Thay, im not completely buying dread ring and rituals to be in the same area. Especially Thay doing it so far away from their home is striking me a bit wrong, with or without crossroads in the Shadowfell. It does indeed feel forced to a degree. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 13 May 2013 15:16:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:16:29
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Yes, that is the in-setting reasoning.
But we all know it was just to dump as many story elements around Neverwinter as possible.
Hell, they even moved Gauntlgrym. 
Neverwinter Games = great sellers. Bob Salvatore novels = Great sellers. Dump one into the other and stir the pot, and hope to save the Realms. A rather simplistic formula... I wish them the best.
What was that expression about eggs and a basket?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
but Asmodeus and Thay, im not completely buying dread ring and rituals to be in the same area. Especially Thay doing it so far away from their home is striking me a bit wrong, with or without crossroads in the Shadowfell. It does indeed feel forced to a degree.
I was originally in that same boat. But now, not quite. I’m no fan of Drizzt nor RAS nor any of his signature characters; and I even disliked how he portrayed Szass Tam in his quick cameo in one of the Neverwinter novels. Still, personal preferences aside, I think these are the two most plausible explanations: (1) the (pathetic) Dread Ring in Neverwinter is a decoy; Szass Tam is building them somewhere, somehow, or (2) the nature of the land of Neverwinter meets the requirements for a Dread Ring–suitable location. He didn’t exactly specify what those requirements are, so we can only guess. As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the two supposedly “obvious” target choices, it’s, again, possible that the land, after some careful inspection, didn’t prove fit for the Dread Rings. Or they’re simply too close to the fallen Dread Rings in Thay that erecting new ones in either of them would ruin the whole grand design. I’m just trying to be optimistic and really, seriously hoping that Richard (one of the very few who did Szass Tam justice) could write another book addressing this “mess.” |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 18:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
but Asmodeus and Thay, im not completely buying dread ring and rituals to be in the same area. Especially Thay doing it so far away from their home is striking me a bit wrong, with or without crossroads in the Shadowfell. It does indeed feel forced to a degree.
I was originally in that same boat. But now, not quite. I’m no fan of Drizzt nor RAS nor any of his signature characters; and I even disliked how he portrayed Szass Tam in his quick cameo in one of the Neverwinter novels. Still, personal preferences aside, I think these are the two most plausible explanations: (1) the (pathetic) Dread Ring in Neverwinter is a decoy; Szass Tam is building them somewhere, somehow, or (2) the nature of the land of Neverwinter meets the requirements for a Dread Ring–suitable location. He didn’t exactly specify what those requirements are, so we can only guess. As for Rashemen and Aglarond, the two supposedly “obvious” target choices, it’s, again, possible that the land, after some careful inspection, didn’t prove fit for the Dread Rings. Or they’re simply too close to the fallen Dread Rings in Thay that erecting new ones in either of them would ruin the whole grand design. I’m just trying to be optimistic and really, seriously hoping that Richard (one of the very few who did Szass Tam justice) could write another book addressing this “mess.”
I know its not a popular viewpoint amongst Candlekeepers but it could also be that Tam has gone somewhat mad due to the influence of the death moon orb, and as a result he is attempting things that a sane person wouldn't because his arrogance prevents him from acknowledging he's overstepping his bounds. Why else would it be that Netherese would intrude upon his very territory and he's not swarming them (ok, don't answer that, because yes I can come up with reasons.... like he's in the midst of some long-lasting ritual that he would rather lose territory over than stop). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 18:12:17
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Even before the Death Moon Orb literally exploded in his face, he was already mad. All liches are anyway. They just vary in degree. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 18:20:11
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| I thought RAS's books took place before the finale of the Haunted Lands, meaning the Thayan Dread Rings hadn't been activated yet. If that is the case, I would think the Neverwinter Dread Ring might be a proof of concept attempt or that there is more than one ring (as in, concentric, ever widening rings) with the Thayan ring as a focal point. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 09:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
(2) the nature of the land of Neverwinter meets the requirements for a Dread Ring–suitable location. He didn’t exactly specify what those requirements are, so we can only guess.
Apperently an ancient very old black dragon is burried there which was the reason for Szass Tam to build the dread ring above its dead body.
And Valindra is trying to get the cult of the dragon to raise it as a dracolich.
This is stated in the fr wiki and if true I guess it also comes from the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
I for one am very interested in the shades search for Ioulaum and what will result when they really find him or raise his enclave.
PS: Another interesting part could be what happens when Larloch who seems to be destroyed at the moment but plottet for his return has time to focus on these events. If he sees Tam and Thay as his agents he might help them. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 14 May 2013 09:21:34 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 09:44:15
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| Going for a Dracholich all the way to the Sword Coast is out of his way in my opinion. It is a incentive to add the Cult of the Dragon into the fold, but that still does not sell me the whole point of Thay at the Sword Coast. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 15:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I thought RAS's books took place before the finale of the Haunted Lands, meaning the Thayan Dread Rings hadn't been activated yet. If that is the case, I would think the Neverwinter Dread Ring might be a proof of concept attempt or that there is more than one ring (as in, concentric, ever widening rings) with the Thayan ring as a focal point.
Yes. I forgot about that. Beast and I “compared notes” regarding the timeline, and it appears like the one in Neverwinter was erected before the ones in Thay were. So perhaps it’s a “prototype.” |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 15:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
(2) the nature of the land of Neverwinter meets the requirements for a Dread Ring–suitable location. He didn’t exactly specify what those requirements are, so we can only guess.
Apperently an ancient very old black dragon is burried there which was the reason for Szass Tam to build the dread ring above its dead body.
And Valindra is trying to get the cult of the dragon to raise it as a dracolich.
Sounds boring to me.
quote:
I for one am very interested in the shades search for Ioulaum and what will result when they really find him or raise his enclave.
As I am. It’s been years since their return. It would be something if, finally, another fellow archwizard gets to join them. I don’t expect the alliance or joining of forces would last, of course, but having it is in itself quite interesting as it would usher a lot of possibilities . . .
quote:
Another interesting part could be what happens when Larloch who seems to be destroyed at the moment but plottet for his return has time to focus on these events. If he sees Tam and Thay as his agents he might help them.
Some of Szass Tam’s powerful artifacts were gifts from Larloch, the greatest of which (I think) is Thakorsil’s Seat. And Szass Tam once performed an errand for Larloch. So it’s possible they have a somewhat “special” relationship. The question is, if—and this is a big if—Larloch commits to helping Szass Tam, what could he possibly gain in return? With three floating enclaves at their disposal, Shade has grown more formidable. And Larloch had been severely affected by the Spellplague that restoring himself to his former glory must be his priority right now—not joining some skirmishes from which he may not gain anything. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 15:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Going for a Dracholich all the way to the Sword Coast is out of his way in my opinion. It is a incentive to add the Cult of the Dragon into the fold, but that still does not sell me the whole point of Thay at the Sword Coast.
It’s really a problem when authors of a shared world setting are unaware of the lore behind the character, artifact, or any concept they incorporate in their works. (Note that Richard wasn’t even aware his concept of the Dread Rings was “borrowed.”) I’m not blaming RAS (who most likely only depended on whatever his editor told him about the subject at hand) or anyone. FR just needs to reestablish the “Guardian of Continuity” post.
And yes, going for a dracolich across the other side of the continent sounds lame. He could summon another creature of Xingax’s caliber who’s capable of creating various forms of undead that rival or possibly even surpass a dracolich. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 17:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I thought RAS's books took place before the finale of the Haunted Lands, meaning the Thayan Dread Rings hadn't been activated yet. If that is the case, I would think the Neverwinter Dread Ring might be a proof of concept attempt or that there is more than one ring (as in, concentric, ever widening rings) with the Thayan ring as a focal point.
Yes. I forgot about that. Beast and I “compared notes” regarding the timeline, and it appears like the one in Neverwinter was erected before the ones in Thay were. So perhaps it’s a “prototype.”
I think a prototype would make some sense, as would building it away from where you plan to actually do the ritual. Tam would want to know what would happen when one of these is fully built and possibly get a better idea of the ins and outs of building one. He likely knows he only gets one shot with the Thayan Rings so knowing as much as he can would be important. He would want to test it elsewhere in case something goes wrong it won't screw up Thay and render it unusable in the big ritual. I don't know if the other side of the continent makes sense, but some distance outside of Thay does. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 19:15:24
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Wasn't Szass Tam allready building the dread rings in the haunted lands trilogy before the spellplagaue struck? In this case the Neverwinter one can't have been buildt bevore the ones in Thay.
Also the FR wiki makes it sound like it was no ordinary black dragon that is burried near Neverwinter. |
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What's the latest info on Thay and Netheril?
