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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 17:58:54
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There has been some talk about Alignment and Paladins. By definition I believe Paladins are or should be Lawful Good but have broken the rule this past week as the DM running a 3e game just for the sake of not stripping the power from a player character who is not sure where his faith truly lies.
In a dream/vision the character faces a large wraith and his divine power fails to turn the undead until he brushes a dusty altar to Cyric which he doesn't know. A formless figure appears before the character questioning his loyalties and desires. This dark avatar then makes an offer to the character to pray each night as the moon rises and take joy with all of their kills. The avatar says it will grant power as long as the character vows to keep up their guise as a paladin and perform a particular duty when the time is right. The character surprisingly agrees and awakens covered in sweat as the moon begins to rise.
Am I taking it too far for 3e allowing the player to change alignment (CE, CN, NE Player chose CN) and keep his current power as a paladin? Should there be any factors I need to consider outside of NPC's noticing the character's behavior outside the scope of a Tormtar or the accusations of curious companion Players.
The player doesn't yet realise he is dealing with Cyric and the year in our game is mid 1480's. God's will play an intricate role in the game later at high level.
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"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 18:16:05
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The problem you are facing is one all of the TSR/Wizards staff face.
All faiths have their divine warriors. But is the Paladin a standard of the Divine Warrior (like in 4ed where all Divine Defenders were based on them) or (like in previous edition) merely a special selected version of the numerous Divine Warriors?
In this case, it might be best to ask these questions...
Does it work story-wise with your campaign plot?
Does it make the game fun?
Can you make it work mechanically?
Most likely in that order. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 07 Mar 2013 18:16:35 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 20:21:04
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Keeping up a paladins disguise to enable conflict within his order is precisely what Cyric would want to accomplish in this scenario. I'd be tempted to change his class abilities. For example give him a permanent undetectable alignment ability (to help infiltrate his order) instead of an at will detect evil, and let him keep his smite, lay on hands and immunities to disease and fear abilities, and strip away his horse and divine grace for a personal buff to cha, dex and str a few rounds each day.
Here is an example (Fallen Paladin, scroll down) of how powers change for a paladin who falls but get sponsored by a new evil deity. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 07 Mar 2013 20:56:18 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 01:40:43
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Not sure if this helps, and I cant point to specific places as Im about to get ready for work, but there is precedent for members of one clergy being poached by another and keeping that fact from the church in order to infiltrate. I believe Vhaeraun did this with some of Lolth's clergy. In the story, Vhaeraun shielded the priestess so that Lolth could not divine her treason...which is what I'm assuming the Veil of Cyric does as well (although I would not require a precious feat slot to be used up for it).
Also, I recall reading a story (I believe it was a Dragonlance novel, but it may have been a FR novel...I cant recall now) in which a knight/paladin was subverted to evil. The character in question used 'logic' (i.e. self-delusions) to justify his actions...he never really accepted that he was evil, only that his church had turned from the truth. Now that I think about it, it may have in fact been a FR novel involving a paladin of Tyr who had been corrupted by Cyric. Perhaps someone else can give you a more specific answer. Hope this helps you.
Quick edit...if you took a route similar to this one, the PC would not lose any of his paladin abilities but would gain new abilities as a 'reward' for his betrayal...until he is discovered. Taking his paladin abilities would require that his deity be aware of his fall from grace. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 08 Mar 2013 01:45:54 |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 01:53:57
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This is 3rd edition in this game so "Veil of Cyric" will work well.
The idea is also to test the player whether he will fully embrace this pact or find redemption else where.
It is part of the backstory as the area they are adventuring and setting up a base of operation is near the classic (Temple of Elemental Evil). I have made adjustments to fit the realms and have placed this along the border of Snakewood, Amn. Eldath, Helm, Lloth, and Cyric are being used in place of Greyhawk Pantheon.
Taking the idea as Cyric is still imprisoned...or is he? Helm is dead...His cell of followers here are certain their god has been answering their prayers believing "Be ever watchful and wait, never betray your trust"...or should they? This is as I said a backdrop as the characters will be busy with many mercenary missions outside of the base area.
The Player may have wonderous revelations in the end, but that will be a while as they are about to run weapons from a retired adventurer and an independant Dwarven Smith in Secomber to Calishite Rebels in Almraiven. They will have their hands full for a while forging a trade way over land and through some new dwarven passes. This will also require some intrigue around Amn which they are engaged in at this time (2nd level) seeking a important (missing) gnome with their Coster Legal documents.
This is as I said a backdrop as the characters will be busy with many missions outside of this setting. As they gain levels they will realise there are things here they will have to deal with to keep their Mercenary/Trade Coster afloat. While keeping rivals and enemies paid off or dealt with accordingly.
It did feel so easy to allow this for now as the players are begining to figure out who their characters really are through adventuring and role playing. They have no idea about the larger scope and will see it as coins/danters for awhile unless they dig deep into their clients backstories and motives.
As they aquire levels I may incorperate, Black Guard type abilities, for now I am letting things happen as not to hamper the moment. I will be watching for some signs of Loyalty to reward.. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 02:24:29
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Let me the one to say that Alignment restrictions are not used as a balance point in v3.5 so keeping the paladin as it (with minor changes) works even if he changes his alignment.
Such things I'd keep the same would be Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Spellcasting, Special Mount, and Remove Curse abilities. They largely don't really pertain to alignment too much and they serve to keep the paladin on par with other classes.
Things I'd tweak would be Smite Evil, Detect Evil, Turn Undead. For Smite Evil I'd be hesitant to change it to Smite Good just because it might never be used often if the Party is Good or Neutral and this depends on how many "Good" guys you pit against your PCs. I'm all for just making it a general smite (Cha-mod to Attack, level to damage) but require that when used, it's gleefully delightful to inflict such pain and uncharacteristic of a noble paladin.
I like the idea of changing out Detect Evil for Undetectable Alignment as well.
Another thought and something that's a bit crazy is as the character levels, he starts exchanging his levels for those of the Paladin of Slaughter. |
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Paladin or Black Guard of Cyric
