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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 04:06:35
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Ok - here is a pantheon question I've had for a long time. Way back in the Adventures hard cover, this is what it said about Leira's "Death" :
During the Time of Troubles, it was widely reported that Leira had been destroyed and that no Avatar had replaced her in the pantheon. However, Leiran specialty priests are still receiving their spells and powers, which indicates this may be a lie or that an avatar has come forward, or that another deity has picked up the portfolio of the Lady of the Mists. Official statements by the church say there is no trouble and Leira emerged from the Troubles more powerful than before. However, given the fact that most official statements are lies, most people believe her dead. But since the church knows that most people believe the statements are lies, Leira could stage her own death, report the truth, and have everyone believe her dead. As usual, the gods aren't talking about this.
Since then, mentions of it have seemed to be simplified into Leira is dead and Cyric has her portfolio. Faiths & Avatars says it is true and that she was killed by Godsbane/Cyric.
For me its too simple for her to get killed by a sword (yes even a god in a sword) since her illusions were even supposed to fool gods. So it seems more than a little likely that if backed into a corner by Cyric and Mask, she simply illusioned them into believing they killed her.
My question... I guess it is for either the sages, or Ed, or another "Richard Awlinson" is this. Was this story ever actually told? And if so was the story a lie? Is Leira still out there obscuring the truth and spinning illusion?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 04:13:53
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All things are possible, after all as I recall Bane was killed, however appears to live again.
There are reports that other deities that died will be alive as well.
As you read the canon, the story was told in brief. If you are asking if a novel was written about the death of Leira, I am not aware of one.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 04:38:32
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There is no tale of her death, but in one of the novels -- Crucible, I think -- Ao point blank said that Leira was dead and that she'd been murdered by Cyric.
I know a lot of people want to believe otherwise, but for me, Ao saying a deity is dead is pretty definitive. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 04:53:13
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The last books of the Avatar series (Prince of Lies and Crucible) and the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxset confirm that Cyric killed Leira and claimed her power (adding Lies and Deception to his own portfolio). The wanton incompetent harridan called Midnight/Mystra continually nagged and nagged Ao about Cyric murdering and impersonating Leira, until Ao (annoyed overgod) chastised her for overstepping her portfolio (not Goddess of Snitching Out Other Gods) and forbade her to obstruct with Cyric continuing to be faithful to his own portfolio (God of Murder and Deception).
Leira's worshippers may have suspected something strange, but were unaware that Leira had been usurped by Cyric. Many of them perished during Cyric's suicidal blunder, but the priesthood then continued to receive their spells and granted powers through another agency, hinted (but not absolutely specified) to be Shar or perhaps Mask. As far as I know, they still believe Leira (perhaps disguised as another deity) continues to sustain their church as of 1384DR, although I might be wrong. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2013 05:02:06 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 06:56:09
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| The official word on Leira was stupid and, as you may already know, Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms has a bit to say about Leira, even though it doesn't contradict the earlier statement, so there's far more reason to include her in your campaign, regardless of timeframe, than there is to exclude her. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 07:04:22
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| But wouldn't it be far more exciting for Mask to be the God of Illusions (and Deception, Intrigue, Treachery, Stealth, Shadows, and Thieves), pretending to be Shar pretending to be Leira? I'm thinking that Godsbane, the sword which Cyric used to slay Leira, was also an avatar of Mask. He may have divested himself of some divine power (portfolios) after reading the Cyrinishad, but he might also have used Godsbane as a hidden receptacle of stolen divinity. I'm just sayin' that Cyric, Mask, and Leira might conceivably possess an overlapping or scrambled blend of portfolios - and subsequent interactions between Cyric and Kelemvor, Mask and Shar could all muddle things a little further. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2013 07:14:07 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 07:09:00
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| I only learned that they are doing another re-vamp edition yesterday, which i why i started reading through this site again after ignoring EVERYTHING from 4th Edition. I'm hoping 5th is at least a little better. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 07:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I only learned that they are doing another re-vamp edition yesterday, which i why i started reading through this site again after ignoring EVERYTHING from 4th Edition. I'm hoping 5th is at least a little better.
+1 
Welcome back to the Realms. I left at the same time, and am hoping to see my home rebuilt as well. Ed Greenwood Presents is a very good investment if you don't already have it, and if you're looking for more great Realmslore, useful for pre-4e games, in typically awesome Ed-style. As well as the addition of more material to your games, the better the sales figures on that book the louder we're telling WotC what we want... and there's reason to believe that they're listening.
Ayrik: I agree that there should be some overlap; that's consistent with what Ed's said about the pantheon. If it were me, I would have written the story so that Godsbane was Leira all along, rather than Mask. She pretended to be Mask when "forced" to reveal her identity, because nobody compels the goddess of illusions to tell the truth.
Bringing the Cyrinishad in... if you accept the official story (that Cyric killed Leira, using Godsbane/Mask) then it follows unavoidably that Cyric *got* the ability to deceive powers with his lies from Leira. This means that Leira had it first. She could fool powers. She certainly could have fooled the fools Cyric and Mask into *believing* that they had killed her... and subsequently believing that they had created an artifact with the ability to deceive powers. All of that comes together neatly if Godsbane is Leira.
I'm not saying that she fooled Ao into thinking she was dead. I'm not going to argue that he was lying or duped. I think that line was put into the book to "settle the issue" and... that was a misguided motive. For my own games, Ao's statement that Leira was dead is one of the things that's not canon in my Realms. But then, I'm shunning all the muckups that necessitated the mass-reinstatement of realms and powers that should be (and appear to be, if Elminster's Realms is any indication) planned for 5e. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 08:14:04
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| OOh, I've never thought of the Godsbane idea before. Clever Xaeyruudh. |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 12:15:32
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quote:
Ayrik: I agree that there should be some overlap; that's consistent with what Ed's said about the pantheon. If it were me, I would have written the story so that Godsbane was Leira all along, rather than Mask. She pretended to be Mask when "forced" to reveal her identity, because nobody compels the goddess of illusions to tell the truth.
Bringing the Cyrinishad in... if you accept the official story (that Cyric killed Leira, using Godsbane/Mask) then it follows unavoidably that Cyric *got* the ability to deceive powers with his lies from Leira. This means that Leira had it first. She could fool powers. She certainly could have fooled the fools Cyric and Mask into *believing* that they had killed her... and subsequently believing that they had created an artifact with the ability to deceive powers. All of that comes together neatly if Godsbane is Leira.
I've wanted a great way to bring Leira back, and this fits the bill!
I hope you dont mind if I steal this for my campaign? |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:00:40
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I'm not sure if Cyric was able to fool powers. Perhaps lesser powers, but he certainly didn't fool Midnight/Mystra. Her primary complaint (on her endless laundry list of complaints) was that Cyric was deceiving Leira's faithful.
Your idea about Godsbane being Leira is very interesting. The line between intrigue and deception seems pretty fine to me; Mask might have easily fooled himself. Perhaps avatars of Mask constantly create intrigue by installing themselves into interesting situations and (unknowingly) working against one another? As the actual instrument of killing, Godsbane was well-positioned to siphon part of the target's essence and energy ... or be counterattacked by the target. Again, I'm not sure if Leira had the power to deceive other powers, but it seems certain she would never attack (or defend herself) in a direct and obvious manner. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:02:25
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| Of course, feel free to use it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 20:58:36
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I'm a big proponent of Leira's not dead. In another thread I explained a few ideas for why Ao may have said what he said. Basically, he was chewing out Mystra for nagging on Cyric for following his portfolio. Why then, IF Leira were trying to fake her own death, would he tell the truth and thus obstruct her following her portfolio. The "truth" or "falsehood" hardly matters to Ao... these gods are ants to him, so for them to presume that he has to answer to them would... at least in my view... make him more likely to be willing to let her play her little game. Then there's also the idea that maybe Ao temporarily needed Leira to do something for him without the other gods bugging her.
The idea that she was godsbane and faked being Mask is an intriguing one. Personally, that's a little more in-depth than I'd like to go, because it might make the lie too hard to conceal. However, if Mask were godsbane and working WITH Leira towards an end goal (such as deceiving Cyric). In fact, maybe Cyric didn't truly possess the murder portfolio either.... since didn't he kill Bhaal with godsbane? Thus, some were complaining that Cyric as god of murder should have "known" that Leira was dead, but maybe he was only getting some of the divine energy from murder and not all of the capabilities. That could maybe help explain why Bhaal was working to come back so quickly with the Baldur's Gate video games. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 23:46:31
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(sorry in advance for rambling... I should probably just delete everything I type after the first two lines, before hitting Send.)
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm not sure if Cyric was able to fool powers.
I'm only saying that as part of accepting the official story, which (I think) includes Mask's mind being chewed up and spit out by the Cyrinishad. It's been a while since I read the books, but I remember being surprised and disappointed that Mask was affected by the Cyrinishad. Midnight had a lot of reasons to mistrust and dislike Cyric, which in my mind justifies her being more resistant to his wiles than other powers who would foolishly give him a blank slate and trust him initially. That's just my interpretation though, and it's not backed by a recent or rigorous reading of the story. After the Avatar trilogy, I had some difficulty convincing myself to read Prince of Lies, and I barely skimmed Crucible. And a lot of time has passed since then.
quote:
Perhaps avatars of Mask constantly create intrigue by installing themselves into interesting situations and (unknowingly) working against one another?
This is a pretty intriguing idea. I'd like to read a novel about this.
quote:
As the actual instrument of killing, Godsbane was well-positioned to siphon part of the target's essence and energy
Cyric getting Leira's portfolio never sat well with me. I was thinking more about it last night and I'm pretty sure no matter how you slice it, Mask should have gotten Leira's portfolio... in the inconceivable event that Cyric confronted Leira and killed her with Godsbane.
The only way it makes any sense for Cyric to get the credit is if Godsbane wasn't part of the attack, or if Cyric's power grossly outweighed that of Mask at the time of the attack. Neither of those was true.
If Godsbane was not used in the attack, Cyric would have died. No contest. He was a low-level mortal dual-class fighter/thief with a whopping 14 hp. And thief was his old class so if he wanted XP he had to act like a fighter; no backstabbing. Leira in her avatar form would have been a high-level wizard. 2e illusionists had pathetic damage-spell selection, but even assuming she was an illusionist (as opposed to a wizard), she had options. Weird, wish, symbol of death, trap the soul, shape change, polymorph any object, time stop... any one of these means "Game Over" for Cyric.
So Godsbane (Mask, in the official story) got the killing blow. It was the special ability of Godsbane itself that "drank" the life of the victim. Fighting Leira with any other shortsword, Cyric would not have been able to cut through her hp faster than she could beat him down with a rock.
Magical chaos could have affected her, but it didn't affect every single spell... and she only needed one in order to kill him. Still, she could have had a run of bad luck that wasted enough of her time that Cyric was able to close to melee range and kill her with Godsbane. In that event, Leira would die while trying to deceive someone, or while simply trying to hide from a confrontation, and she would have qualified for resurrection under the "You were Doing Your Job so Here's a Rez" program that returned Torm to the Realms.
Another point is that the story emphasizes the explosion that takes place upon the death of an avatar. In order for Cyric to survive this blast, Godsbane would have had to absorb that as well. This emphasizes the fact that Mask is doing all the work, and earning the credit... it also should have destroyed or weakened Godsbane to the point of being useless for a while, leaving Cyric defenseless. That would be a problem, because the only tool Cyric had for gaining allies was impressing them with Godsbane. Without his artifact-caliber ubersword, he would just be a bitter heartless little man with 14 hp.
Cyric couldn't kill Leira without Godsbane. He probably wouldn't have recognized Leira as an avatar, even in the event that he saw her. Godsbane (as Mask) could undoubtedly have dominated Cyric and forced him to wield it against whatever target looked tasty. Mask would have been more likely to recognize an avatar as an avatar... though still unlikely to recognize the goddess of illusions.
Cyric would also lack the power to compel Mask to give Leira's portfolio to him, at least before Mask lost his independence to the Cyrinishad. Mask is the god of tricksters... good luck forcing him to do anything, especially giving you something he had to fight to obtain. What would be Ao's reason for awarding Leira's portfolio to Cyric? Ao wasn't exactly Cyric's biggest fan. And Mask, hiding in the sword and basically devouring the lifeforce of an avatar in the interest of stealing the portfolio, was embodying his own portfolio. It doesn't make sense that Mask would intend to give Leira's portfolio to Cyric, or that he would be compelled to give it up after the fact, or that Ao would give it to Cyric instead of Mask.
Meh. Anyway. Tying Godsbane to Leira makes sense for Leira, and it also makes sense for Mask. As it stands, following the Avatar trilogy and its sequels, Mask is crippled, nuts, and pretty much useless. He's definitely useless as a patron of PCs. Rogues are a significant percentage of PCs, and they have no other reasonable patron... other than maybe Shar, and she's a bad choice for good/neutral rogues. Classic Mask should be CN instead of NE, making him more appropriate for good-aligned rogues as well as neutral & evil ones; that's a separate argument, but it's a very defensible stance. Leira is the most appropriate patron for illusionists, but that's a smaller group of PCs and they still have both Azuth and Mystra (as well as Mask and Shar). If the goddess of illusionists vanishes from the Realms for a few years, it's not a major disturbance... just like losing Waukeen for a while was something to talk about but... not as big of an event as I thought it should have been. Oh well.
Mask would be nuts because he wasn't in charge of the situation. He read the Cyrinishad, and believed it, and that infected his mind with Cyric's insanity. If you replace Mask with Leira, she doesn't go nuts... because she'd be the source of the lies from day one. She'd be giggling, not crying. Instead of Cyric writing the Cyrinishad, Leira wrote it. She isn't crippled... she's the puppeteer, and she has Cyric (the so-called god of lies and deception) tied up so tightly in a web of lies she wrote that he doesn't even realize that he's not calling the shots.
Regardless of their relationship, Cyric can remain a greater power, and Leira can remain a lesser power, because she doesn't dominate him... she just spins the events he perceives and tells him what they mean, through the voices constantly shouting/whispering/singing/growling/crooning in his mind. Of course, she also adds a deluge of other events which she perceives (or makes up) into the maelstrom in his head, to keep him shellshocked. Sometimes, he can't react to anything, due to sensory overload; he chalks it up to being a greater power, but he would be able to handle it like other powers do if he weren't insane... and if he had never touched Godsbane.
Just my thoughts... I'm interested in any feedback, pro or con. Though I'm maybe hijacking the thread... my bad... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 01:06:55
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Hmm. It seems, logically, that if Cyric can deceive other powers then Leira (or even Mask) could deceive Cyric.
My impression was that exposure to the Cyrinishad actually did compel Mask to release part of his power. More accurately, I believe these gods are multi-conscious entities (after all, each avatar is basically a complete individual) and that Mask basically excised a compartment of his greater mind (the insane Cyric-worshipping "Lies and Deception" part) when divesting himself of Cyric's influence - such a mental/divine/power/portfolio boon surely did wonders for Cyric.
Although we do have that offhand comment from Ao confirming Leira is dead. Assuming it was really Ao, of course, and not a power being deceived by an illusion. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2013 01:08:38 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 01:58:16
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Another preface: I may have misinterpreted the direction you were going, in my haste to get thoughts out onto the page. And now that I'm done for the moment, I'm hungry, so I'll be back to puzzle over it some more later on.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why then, IF Leira were trying to fake her own death, would he tell the truth and thus obstruct her following her portfolio.
In a general sense, I can see three possible reasons for Ao to say that Leira was dead: (1) Leira was actually dead; he was simply stating fact; (2) Leira is assumed to be dead; he's stating what Mystra, or the powers in general, believed to be true; (3) Leira might be dead; he was stating a hypothetical, ideally to be opposed by exploring other possibilities at some later point in the discussion. I only read through the scene once, and it was forever ago, and I wasn't thinking of all the possibilities back then. The official position seems to be that Cyric murdered Leira during the Time of Troubles, and that somehow Godsbane was irrelevant in that act.
On the other hand, didn't someone say Waukeen was killed in the Time of Troubles? Later it turned out she was being imprisoned. I could argue that nobody went looking for her because the feeling was that she was dead. Could a similar situation be legitimately inferred from this discussion? I dunno, but if not then I'll just ignore the events of that sentence, or that chapter, or that book. I prefer a Realms where things make sense at *some* level, even if the published works don't always support it, over a Realms that's in strict agreement with all published material, but frequently lame as a result. Plus... it isn't even possible to agree with all the published material, since contradictions are published relatively often. One big one: Steven Schend said Bane is dead and is not coming back. Someone decided to bring Bane back. Shame on them for killing Bane in the first place (who thought that was an awesome idea?) but double-shame for making Steven look misinformed. Point: WotC doesn't know what ideas and decisions will come down the pipe tomorrow, and even canon isn't always canon.
quote:
The "truth" or "falsehood" hardly matters to Ao... these gods are ants to him, so for them to presume that he has to answer to them would... at least in my view... make him more likely to be willing to let her play her little game.
I can agree that he would chafe at being treated like he serves them rather than the other way around. Not sure about truth not mattering, though. If Ao lies at all, he would have to lie exactly 50% of the time, to embody balance. Although he probably doesn't communicate often, that's still a pretty significant amount of lying. If the powers are aware that he lies, they would have to question everything he says. If they're not aware of it... well, suddenly the chaos of the pantheon makes a lot more sense.
My personal take is that Ao is always truthful... not that he has to be, but because Balance is much more difficult without an ultimate objective truth. But the possibility that he was lying because it served his interests to do so is intriguing. (coming back to this: tie-in at the end)
quote:
Then there's also the idea that maybe Ao temporarily needed Leira to do something for him without the other gods bugging her.
What task do you have in mind? That could be a tough sell because... what would Ao conceivably need someone else to do for him?
quote:
However, if Mask were godsbane and working WITH Leira towards an end goal (such as deceiving Cyric). In fact, maybe Cyric didn't truly possess the murder portfolio either.... since didn't he kill Bhaal with godsbane? Thus, some were complaining that Cyric as god of murder should have "known" that Leira was dead, but maybe he was only getting some of the divine energy from murder and not all of the capabilities. That could maybe help explain why Bhaal was working to come back so quickly with the Baldur's Gate video games.
Yea, I think the point about Bhaal and the murder portfolio is valid too. Cyric impersonates Torm in a novel... and I think there's an implication that he impersonates other powers as well. So regardless of who actually has murder in their portfolio, Cyric can claim it at will and nobody less than a greater power will openly challenge him. Particularly after the Time of Troubles since doesn't Ao crush the Tablets? So maybe the strict boundaries of who has which portfolio are breaking down... for a while, until 5e snaps back to some semblance of normalcy. Others know more about that than I do. And also about the Baldur's Gate games; I haven't played them.
quote:
Personally, that's a little more in-depth than I'd like to go, because it might make the lie too hard to conceal.
The following is delving back into the Godsbane = Leira idea. This is what I was hastening to get to. *sigh* Sorry if you were already saying some of the same things, regarding the points above.
She might be up for a challenge. Lying is pretty easy, and the tendency of mortals to eventually get caught in their lies has everything to do with our short attention span and finite memory. If we were powers, I think we'd find the task of keeping our lies straight to be much simpler... and probably much less thrilling. I expect Leira gets bored. Maybe she wanted to shake things up.
There's precedent for powers impersonating each other. Cyric impersonates Torm in a novel. Beshaba calls herself Shaundakul in Anauroch, on an ongoing/permanent basis.
This was during the Time of Troubles. Leira would have intended her deception to end whenever the Time of Troubles ended. Sure, Mask would know that she was impersonating him... after they were allowed back to the outer planes, and he had access to his full perceptory powers. But for now, he's just an avatar... little more than high-level mortal. He wouldn't know if the guy walking down a street two blocks away claimed to be Mask... and he certainly wouldn't know about the little white lies of a certain illusionist who wore the best amulet of nondetection ever crafted.
Her original motive would have been simply to hide until the crisis passed. Ao locked the powers on Faerun as a result of a theft... Leira may or may not have known anything about the theft. I think it's reasonable that Bane/Myrkul/both enlisted Leira's help in hiding their involvement and/or putting a fake set of Tablets in place to uh... fool Ao... right, guys, good thinking. But if they're dumb enough to steal the Tablets, and then dumb enough to feign innocence when Ao finds out about it, then they're also dumb enough to have thought fake Tablets would fool him. Leira would probably be wary enough of Bane and Myrkul to keep her mouth shut and let the event play out, reserving the ability to reveal what she knows in the event that Ao comes after her personally.
It's also reasonable to assume that Bane and Myrkul played their cards close to their chests and didn't let anyone else in on the conspiracy... they didn't want to share the prize with anyone else, after all.
Either way, Leira knows that she's not a fighter. She's aware of her limitations in avatar form. So she's not going to do anything to draw attention to herself. She's going to hide... in the form of something that doesn't scream "physically weak wizard with an even crappier spell selection than real wizards" to anyone who happens to find her. Particularly if the one who stumbles across her happens to be another avatar. Like Bane or Myrkul, who would undoubtedly compel her to try to hide them from Ao if they realized who she was. So she disguises herself as the absolute opposite of a weak spellcaster: a sword!
The more people she comes into contact with, the higher the odds that one of them will be an avatar. Plus, being picked up and used by one mortal is humiliating enough; more is worse. She doesn't want to change hands a lot; she wants to make sure that whoever picks her up first will hang onto her and (hopefully) carry her safely through this crazytime. So she imbues her new body with quite a bit of power; in particular, it has the ability to absorb the lifeforce of any being that comes in contact with her blade. Perhaps her nervousness about meeting an avatar affects her enchantment, or (more likely when she recalls it later) it's magical chaos; one way or the other, the lifedrinking ability turns out much stronger than she'd anticipated... but she doesn't realize that until she meets Bhaal.
She gets discovered by a mortal... a kindred spirit in the sense that he grew up alone and lonely, and kicked around by forces bigger and stronger than him. He's tired of it, and resolved to start kicking back, harder and stronger. She likes his inner strength; disproportionately large for a mortal. Plus he has more than just a streak of immorality... it's more like a river. And he calls himself Sneakabout, which is just disgustingly cute. So she kinda likes the dude, in the same way that a girl likes an old abused and neglected doll.
Sneakabout ends up on the wrong side of her blade, though, which is sad for a minute but now she has an interesting new mind to explore. Similar background, the same hunger for power and acclaim, but less self-determination, more desperation, and more sense of entitlement. He thinks he's a god trapped in a man's body. Now this is a mind she can shape...
And in short order, the answer to the question of who is using whom changes.
By the time Cyric ascends, she's grown kinda attached to him. Not dependent... she could readily return to her own realm, as soon as Ao unlocked the planes. And she would, in a large sense; for safety's sake, just in case she's caught, she sends the core of her being back to her dark lair in the planes. But... why release her toy, if she doesn't have to? In the beginning, the sword was just a disguise. Now it's a tool. Now it's a key. A key, not just to the mind of a man, but the mind of a god. She now has the exponentially larger opportunity to shape a Greater Power. She can remain ensconced in the shadows of his mind and vicariously enjoy the senses, and exult in the power, of real godhood.
And what of Mask? With the doors opened, he returns to his realm in the outer planes, and is most likely none the wiser. For one thing, Leira does have the best amulet of nondetection ever crafted. For another, she's the goddess of illusions, and she got all of her powers back at the same time that Mask got his back. Thirdly, she's lurking inside Cyric.
She's not taking any worshipers away from Mask, so he has that much less reason to care about what she calls herself. The only being she's actively deceiving is Cyric, and Mask --if he were aware of what she's doing-- would be greatly amused by that... though also concerned about the damage she might cause if she ever decided to actively use Cyric's power against someone... and if she succeeded in doing so. The other powers, of course, don't know where she is, and may believe that she's dead, but that's par for the course. They very likely didn't know much of what she did or where she went before the Time of Troubles, either.
Leira could be quite happy with everyone (except her worshipers, who know better than to believe such outrageous rumors) assuming she's dead. If she's dead, nobody has any reason to go looking for her. Nobody will challenge her for her portfolio... because Cyric has her portfolio, and it takes some serious brass to challenge a greater power... especially for a "minor" portfolio like illusions. Everybody will leave her alone... alone with her doll...
And here's a tie-in to the earlier bit about Ao lying... and to what he said to Cyric at his ascension... I don't remember the quote, but the idea was that Cyric had no idea what he was getting into, and it was not going to be the bed of roses he thought it was going to be. This statement makes all kinds of sense in the context that Ao obviously knew about Leira's presence and deception of Cyric, and what she was going to do to him. Leira was being true to her portfolio, so there was absolutely no reason for Ao to interfere. And Ao's later lie to the greater powers was almost required... because if he had told them the truth, X number of powers who had an interest in Cyric's future (or Leira's) would try to interfere. It simply wasn't Ao's place to reveal Leira's machinations to the other powers... he wouldn't stop them from discovering it on their own, but he also wouldn't expose it to them. To do either would upset the balance. Wheeee... now I'm excited.
Soooooo I don't need to ignore Ao's statement for the "Leira Lives" theory to work. And it creates some depth and intrigue that didn't previously exist for Leira. Happy Friday! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 02:10:45
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| My theory was simpler. Wasn't really Ao, was just an illusion meant to deceive a power. If (real) Ao doesn't have any qualms about powers impersonating other powers then he probably wouldn't care much about powers impersonating him. |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 02:24:54
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That's a really big "if."
This is just my take on it...
I don't think it's the case that Ao doesn't care about the powers impersonating each other. Particularly in the case of a god(dess) of illusions impersonating other powers. I think the issue for Ao is that him taking a side in disagreements between the powers would unbalance things. It would be showing favoritism (or the opposite) to the powers involved.
I think Ao would hold the powers responsible for policing their own, in the small issues. He only gets directly involved when something affects the pantheon as a whole, or the structural integrity of Toril, or a significant percentage of all the worshipers who support the pantheon. There might be a couple other cases, but Beshaba pretending to be Shaundakul isn't going to earn the overgod's personalized spanking. And Cyric pretending to be other gods? Not a chance of Ao getting involved, because lying is kinda what Cyric is supposed to do.
I think Ao would respond to someone impersonating him. It would also be pretty difficult to impersonate him, going on my memory of the description of his appearance in Cynosure. The powers were quaking in their boots. Even Mystra or Leira's illusions wouldn't be able to achieve that effect. But it seems certain that there would be a backlash to whoever attempted it. On the other hand, whoever believes the deception might be allowed to suffer the consequences of their misdirection, whatever those happen to be. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 03:17:03
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Another question to resolve is why Leira would appear in Cormyr... as opposed to Nimbral or some other population of her followers.
I think one valid answer lies in her nature. If she were to show up in one of her temples, and make a grand entrance into Faerun as a god standing tall over her faithful in the manner that Bane and Torm (and undoubtedly many others) did, it would be a violation of her portfolio.
On Nimbral she would be a celebrity... the last thing she wants to be. Even a clear confirmation of her existence would be outside her best interest. Her faithful already believe in her; they see her caress in the little things around them. A grand entrance would briefly excite but ultimately disillusion them. Ohh, the clever wordplay!
It's potentially more beneficial, and it's definitely safer, for her to appear in an area where nobody expects her to be. Like the countryside somewhere around a tiny, practically unknown, halfling hamlet. A place where her worshipers number... zero. The last place a rival might think to look for her... the last place anyone would expect any avatar to appear.
At the best, there's a chance she impresses someone and gains a follower in a new part of the world. At worst, she remains undetected... which is another best case scenario.
So I think that addresses the question of "Y u no go thud in temple?" |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:59:14
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| The only thing I'd amend about all that is to argue that a powerful illusionist is anything but weak - illusionists, done right, at high levels are much more powerful than any other archmage, if you ask me - especially when you take away the ability to disbelieve illusions (which was one of her powers, no one could disbelieve them within a certain distance of her). She could've waltzed into the heart of Thay and left the mighty red wizards in tatters had that been her goal. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 18:24:12
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| Ooh, I didn't realize the point about no disbelief... that is a game-changer. And I don't question that illusionists have some power, as long as they can control the circumstances. I haven't had much interaction with specialist illusionists, either as a player or DM, so that probably caused me to overstate their weakness. The crappy spell selection comments were because, in 2e, illusionists were barred from all necromancy, evocation, and abjuration spells. Ridiculous. Apparently the feeling at TSR was that illusionists would be stupendously overpowered if they were given the ability to cast protective spells. So I think illusionists should be less confident in melee combat situations if magical chaos only lets them cast one spell, because they can't use a lot of the standard damage spells; the key to survival as a mage of any sort is to stay out of those situations. So a worst-case scenario would be Cyric and Godsbane surprising her and somehow getting within melee range before she detected them. Personally, I would argue that the avatar of Leira would have access to all spells, regardless of school... but ultimately a weird or symbol of death would be plenty to kill the mortal Cyric, and there are lower level options as well, so even if her avatar is subject to all the limitations of a standard specialist illusionist and she's surprised, she's still going to win a confrontation. Letting Godsbane kill her, and giving Cyric the credit for it, is two wrongs, and as we all know, that doesn't make a right. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 18:53:21
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2E illusionists - and I suspect the particular arrangement/relationship for the eight specialist schools - were designed to emulate and accomodate 1E illusionists. I think the basic idea was that a 1E illusionist would endure minimal disruption when being rewritten as a 2E illusionist.
It just turns out that the spell lists (main defining characteristic) for 1E illusionists were lacking in necromantic, evocation, and abjuration magics, so these were the obvious "opposition school" choices in 2E. The rest of the schools seem to have been arranged in a rough (but arbitrary) "balance", so that in theory any specialist is equivalent in terms of power and playability to any other. Didn't work out that way, some patently contrived explanations had to be given (over and over again) for why this or that school is forbidden to a particular specialist wizard. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2013 18:54:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 06:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Another preface: I may have misinterpreted the direction you were going, in my haste to get thoughts out onto the page. And now that I'm done for the moment, I'm hungry, so I'll be back to puzzle over it some more later on.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why then, IF Leira were trying to fake her own death, would he tell the truth and thus obstruct her following her portfolio.
In a general sense, I can see three possible reasons for Ao to say that Leira was dead: (1) Leira was actually dead; he was simply stating fact; (2) Leira is assumed to be dead; he's stating what Mystra, or the powers in general, believed to be true; (3) Leira might be dead; he was stating a hypothetical, ideally to be opposed by exploring other possibilities at some later point in the discussion. I only read through the scene once, and it was forever ago, and I wasn't thinking of all the possibilities back then. The official position seems to be that Cyric murdered Leira during the Time of Troubles, and that somehow Godsbane was irrelevant in that act.
On the other hand, didn't someone say Waukeen was killed in the Time of Troubles? Later it turned out she was being imprisoned. I could argue that nobody went looking for her because the feeling was that she was dead. Could a similar situation be legitimately inferred from this discussion? I dunno, but if not then I'll just ignore the events of that sentence, or that chapter, or that book. I prefer a Realms where things make sense at *some* level, even if the published works don't always support it, over a Realms that's in strict agreement with all published material, but frequently lame as a result. Plus... it isn't even possible to agree with all the published material, since contradictions are published relatively often. One big one: Steven Schend said Bane is dead and is not coming back. Someone decided to bring Bane back. Shame on them for killing Bane in the first place (who thought that was an awesome idea?) but double-shame for making Steven look misinformed. Point: WotC doesn't know what ideas and decisions will come down the pipe tomorrow, and even canon isn't always canon.
quote:
The "truth" or "falsehood" hardly matters to Ao... these gods are ants to him, so for them to presume that he has to answer to them would... at least in my view... make him more likely to be willing to let her play her little game.
I can agree that he would chafe at being treated like he serves them rather than the other way around. Not sure about truth not mattering, though. If Ao lies at all, he would have to lie exactly 50% of the time, to embody balance. Although he probably doesn't communicate often, that's still a pretty significant amount of lying. If the powers are aware that he lies, they would have to question everything he says. If they're not aware of it... well, suddenly the chaos of the pantheon makes a lot more sense.
My personal take is that Ao is always truthful... not that he has to be, but because Balance is much more difficult without an ultimate objective truth. But the possibility that he was lying because it served his interests to do so is intriguing. (coming back to this: tie-in at the end)
quote:
Then there's also the idea that maybe Ao temporarily needed Leira to do something for him without the other gods bugging her.
What task do you have in mind? That could be a tough sell because... what would Ao conceivably need someone else to do for him?
quote:
However, if Mask were godsbane and working WITH Leira towards an end goal (such as deceiving Cyric). In fact, maybe Cyric didn't truly possess the murder portfolio either.... since didn't he kill Bhaal with godsbane? Thus, some were complaining that Cyric as god of murder should have "known" that Leira was dead, but maybe he was only getting some of the divine energy from murder and not all of the capabilities. That could maybe help explain why Bhaal was working to come back so quickly with the Baldur's Gate video games.
Yea, I think the point about Bhaal and the murder portfolio is valid too. Cyric impersonates Torm in a novel... and I think there's an implication that he impersonates other powers as well. So regardless of who actually has murder in their portfolio, Cyric can claim it at will and nobody less than a greater power will openly challenge him. Particularly after the Time of Troubles since doesn't Ao crush the Tablets? So maybe the strict boundaries of who has which portfolio are breaking down... for a while, until 5e snaps back to some semblance of normalcy. Others know more about that than I do. And also about the Baldur's Gate games; I haven't played them.
quote:
Personally, that's a little more in-depth than I'd like to go, because it might make the lie too hard to conceal.
The following is delving back into the Godsbane = Leira idea. This is what I was hastening to get to. *sigh* Sorry if you were already saying some of the same things, regarding the points above.
She might be up for a challenge. Lying is pretty easy, and the tendency of mortals to eventually get caught in their lies has everything to do with our short attention span and finite memory. If we were powers, I think we'd find the task of keeping our lies straight to be much simpler... and probably much less thrilling. I expect Leira gets bored. Maybe she wanted to shake things up.
There's precedent for powers impersonating each other. Cyric impersonates Torm in a novel. Beshaba calls herself Shaundakul in Anauroch, on an ongoing/permanent basis.
This was during the Time of Troubles. Leira would have intended her deception to end whenever the Time of Troubles ended. Sure, Mask would know that she was impersonating him... after they were allowed back to the outer planes, and he had access to his full perceptory powers. But for now, he's just an avatar... little more than high-level mortal. He wouldn't know if the guy walking down a street two blocks away claimed to be Mask... and he certainly wouldn't know about the little white lies of a certain illusionist who wore the best amulet of nondetection ever crafted.
Her original motive would have been simply to hide until the crisis passed. Ao locked the powers on Faerun as a result of a theft... Leira may or may not have known anything about the theft. I think it's reasonable that Bane/Myrkul/both enlisted Leira's help in hiding their involvement and/or putting a fake set of Tablets in place to uh... fool Ao... right, guys, good thinking. But if they're dumb enough to steal the Tablets, and then dumb enough to feign innocence when Ao finds out about it, then they're also dumb enough to have thought fake Tablets would fool him. Leira would probably be wary enough of Bane and Myrkul to keep her mouth shut and let the event play out, reserving the ability to reveal what she knows in the event that Ao comes after her personally.
It's also reasonable to assume that Bane and Myrkul played their cards close to their chests and didn't let anyone else in on the conspiracy... they didn't want to share the prize with anyone else, after all.
Either way, Leira knows that she's not a fighter. She's aware of her limitations in avatar form. So she's not going to do anything to draw attention to herself. She's going to hide... in the form of something that doesn't scream "physically weak wizard with an even crappier spell selection than real wizards" to anyone who happens to find her. Particularly if the one who stumbles across her happens to be another avatar. Like Bane or Myrkul, who would undoubtedly compel her to try to hide them from Ao if they realized who she was. So she disguises herself as the absolute opposite of a weak spellcaster: a sword!
The more people she comes into contact with, the higher the odds that one of them will be an avatar. Plus, being picked up and used by one mortal is humiliating enough; more is worse. She doesn't want to change hands a lot; she wants to make sure that whoever picks her up first will hang onto her and (hopefully) carry her safely through this crazytime. So she imbues her new body with quite a bit of power; in particular, it has the ability to absorb the lifeforce of any being that comes in contact with her blade. Perhaps her nervousness about meeting an avatar affects her enchantment, or (more likely when she recalls it later) it's magical chaos; one way or the other, the lifedrinking ability turns out much stronger than she'd anticipated... but she doesn't realize that until she meets Bhaal.
She gets discovered by a mortal... a kindred spirit in the sense that he grew up alone and lonely, and kicked around by forces bigger and stronger than him. He's tired of it, and resolved to start kicking back, harder and stronger. She likes his inner strength; disproportionately large for a mortal. Plus he has more than just a streak of immorality... it's more like a river. And he calls himself Sneakabout, which is just disgustingly cute. So she kinda likes the dude, in the same way that a girl likes an old abused and neglected doll.
Sneakabout ends up on the wrong side of her blade, though, which is sad for a minute but now she has an interesting new mind to explore. Similar background, the same hunger for power and acclaim, but less self-determination, more desperation, and more sense of entitlement. He thinks he's a god trapped in a man's body. Now this is a mind she can shape...
And in short order, the answer to the question of who is using whom changes.
By the time Cyric ascends, she's grown kinda attached to him. Not dependent... she could readily return to her own realm, as soon as Ao unlocked the planes. And she would, in a large sense; for safety's sake, just in case she's caught, she sends the core of her being back to her dark lair in the planes. But... why release her toy, if she doesn't have to? In the beginning, the sword was just a disguise. Now it's a tool. Now it's a key. A key, not just to the mind of a man, but the mind of a god. She now has the exponentially larger opportunity to shape a Greater Power. She can remain ensconced in the shadows of his mind and vicariously enjoy the senses, and exult in the power, of real godhood.
And what of Mask? With the doors opened, he returns to his realm in the outer planes, and is most likely none the wiser. For one thing, Leira does have the best amulet of nondetection ever crafted. For another, she's the goddess of illusions, and she got all of her powers back at the same time that Mask got his back. Thirdly, she's lurking inside Cyric.
She's not taking any worshipers away from Mask, so he has that much less reason to care about what she calls herself. The only being she's actively deceiving is Cyric, and Mask --if he were aware of what she's doing-- would be greatly amused by that... though also concerned about the damage she might cause if she ever decided to actively use Cyric's power against someone... and if she succeeded in doing so. The other powers, of course, don't know where she is, and may believe that she's dead, but that's par for the course. They very likely didn't know much of what she did or where she went before the Time of Troubles, either.
Leira could be quite happy with everyone (except her worshipers, who know better than to believe such outrageous rumors) assuming she's dead. If she's dead, nobody has any reason to go looking for her. Nobody will challenge her for her portfolio... because Cyric has her portfolio, and it takes some serious brass to challenge a greater power... especially for a "minor" portfolio like illusions. Everybody will leave her alone... alone with her doll...
And here's a tie-in to the earlier bit about Ao lying... and to what he said to Cyric at his ascension... I don't remember the quote, but the idea was that Cyric had no idea what he was getting into, and it was not going to be the bed of roses he thought it was going to be. This statement makes all kinds of sense in the context that Ao obviously knew about Leira's presence and deception of Cyric, and what she was going to do to him. Leira was being true to her portfolio, so there was absolutely no reason for Ao to interfere. And Ao's later lie to the greater powers was almost required... because if he had told them the truth, X number of powers who had an interest in Cyric's future (or Leira's) would try to interfere. It simply wasn't Ao's place to reveal Leira's machinations to the other powers... he wouldn't stop them from discovering it on their own, but he also wouldn't expose it to them. To do either would upset the balance. Wheeee... now I'm excited.
Soooooo I don't need to ignore Ao's statement for the "Leira Lives" theory to work. And it creates some depth and intrigue that didn't previously exist for Leira. Happy Friday!
I find that doing each little piece of a response just ends up confusing people when responses come back, so I'm just going to respond to the whole thing here. Note, I still like the general idea of the Leira as Godsbane idea and its a possibility, I just think it more likely that maybe she's telling a different lie (but I'm also not specifically saying what as I've put forth a few ideas in other threads recently, so I don't want to beat a dead horse).
On the 3 options Ao might have for telling the truth, only the first would make sense (i.e. that he's telling the truth because she IS dead), because Ao isn't going to be confused about whether she's dead or not. He'll know. However, what does he care whether the other gods know the truth or not? Why should they even remotely demand an explanation of "god" and him come down and tell them the truth of matters? If mortals were to do that of say Mystra about something related to the running of the universe, would she feel personally obligated to come on down and explain to them how it works? I think not. Plus, he's already irritated with them when they're tattling anyway, such that he tells Mystra to basically shut up and quit worrying about Cyric. So, to me it makes more sense that IF Leira is trying to fake her own death, he would put her following her portfolio before any weak policy like "telling the truth".
As to having Leira doing something for him, maybe he needs something done OUTSIDE the realms? For instance, maybe in order to fix things with the Sundering, he needs something that's located in Sigil in a secret hiding place. Gods aren't allowed to enter, so he temporarily has her give up her divine mantle in order to secretly enter the city? In fact, at some point doesn't Finder do the exact same thing in order to enter Sigil right after the ToT, wherein he has to recover the "Hand of Bane"? Hell, maybe Ao foresees Szass Tam's upcoming attempt to remake the universe, and he needs something from there in order to stop it from happening. Maybe he foresees that he's going to need something to unmerge/remerge the two worlds, Abeir and Toril, and he had it hid away in Sigil to keep it out of the hands of gods? Hell, maybe it even has to do with this item mentioned in the 4th edition campaign setting (congrats to Markustay for finding it in another thread)
From 4th edition campaign setting, page 210
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Melauthaur is actually a runescribed
dracolich who continues to strengthen his
undead powers. Sometimes he sends his dragon subjects
to distant parts of Returned Abeir, apparently
looking for clues regarding a relic that was lost during
the war between the Estelar and the Dawn Titans in
ancient days. Called The Shadow of Ao, the relic is said
to have the power to twin the world anew.
*******************
As to him having to lie or tell the truth exactly 50% of the time, I don't see that as even remotely a stricture for Ao. He's got free will to do whatever he needs to make sure that the gods are following their portfolios and the universe's trains are all running on time. If he were to follow such a 50% policy, he'd in my view be acting a bit chaotic ("oh, do I lie today or not, let me roll the dice").
As to Leira being bored and taking a chance in her lie by being Godsbane just to spice things up, that I don't buy. She's already taking a chance in faking her own death. Again, not against the idea that she could be godsbane, just saying need a better reason than she was bored.
I do really like your idea that Bane/Myrkul/both tried to get her to help them hide their theft of the tablets of fate. That's an interesting spin. Let's take that a little further. Nothing says they bluntly went to her and requested the aid. Leira could have worked through and discovered their actions. Maybe they enlisted her aid to cover their endeavour but thought they were secretly hiding their true agenda? Maybe they approached her for some powerful artifact of hiding? Maybe whenever a certain spell of illusion is used, Leira knows about it? Maybe Leira tipped off Mask as to what the two of them were doing and Mask actually told Ao (Ao may have known, but maybe he respected Mask trying to create intrigue buy informing Ao as well)? Maybe Mask knew what the two gods were plotting and actually sent them to Leira, which again follows intrigues? There's probably a lot of other options that could be gotten here. I think this idea strikes gold. I cannot stress this enough, this part really strikes gold and can help fuel a lot of scenarios.
Now, as to your backstory on her being Godsbane, so far... it could bear water, just as it would for Mask being Godsbane. Basically, its the same story with an additional hitch in there that eventually she reveals herself as "Mask" at the point that's its revealed in the novels. That's the only part that I'd have to go back and read the story to make sure it makes sense with what follows (which has been so long ago that I can't trust my memory). You are right that it would fold well into why Ao would lie about her being dead, but then I come back to my original "If she were lying about being dead, why would Ao tell the truth about it" argument that could cover many different arguments over what she's actually doing.
In closing, I think you have some good ideas (and some off kilter ones too such as the lying for balance idea). I'm open to them. Definitely, as we flesh the ideas out by pointing out inconsistencies, the idea becomes stronger. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 06:36:33
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| On the idea that Leira was infecting Cyric's mind and helped created the Cyrinishad, I like this idea as well. Not necessarily how you have it with her posing as "Mask" as Godsbane and reading the book necessarily and not being affected (though also not hating that idea either, its pretty good). I'd actually wondered if the book was her hiding similar to how Mask was hiding as Godsbane. However, my point in responding is that this general idea again bears gold and can be spun multiple ways. Maybe Ao approaches her and tells her she has to give up her divinity to do some task, and she implants the idea in Cyric's head to create the Cyrinishad as a means to regaining her portfolios later by subsuming his mind with a lie. Maybe she and Mask plot her death together, but she also plots to steal "intrigue" from Mask? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 08:45:20
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I think the answer to avoiding confusion in the responses is for me to keep my posts shorter and tackle one idea at a time. I'll give it a shot. I seem to be the god of tangents, though, so I can't make any promises.
Some of these may be important, some less so, but I'll try to respond to everything, and I invite response to everything, as I'm enjoying the process of fleshing this out as an option both for myself and anyone else who doesn't accept the blatantly irrational cover story regarding Leira.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the 3 options Ao might have for telling the truth, only the first would make sense (i.e. that he's telling the truth because she IS dead), because Ao isn't going to be confused about whether she's dead or not. He'll know.
I didn't mean to imply any confusion on Ao's part for any of the three options.
Ao says Leira is dead. There are at least three explanations for this statement.
1. He's telling the unvarnished truth.
2. He's echoing the assumptions of Mystra and maybe other powers.
3. He's stating a hypothetical, in order to make some point of logic.
4. ???
The last time I read these books was shortly after I got them: 1989 for the Avatar trilogy, 1993 for Prince of Lies. I can't find Crucible at the moment, but I dug up the other three and I'm going to endeavor to read them again with an eye toward this theory.
Point is... in all three of the cases above, Ao knows the truth of what's going on. But you're right... in no case is he required to tell everyone else the truth of what's going on.
I don't like the idea of Ao lying just to prove that he can, or purely in response to Mystra's uppity demands of him. That would be childish. And no matter how childish the powers are, I don't like the idea of Ao being childish. But that gets into another response... |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 09:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, what does he care whether the other gods know the truth or not? Why should they even remotely demand an explanation of "god" and him come down and tell them the truth of matters? If mortals were to do that of say Mystra about something related to the running of the universe, would she feel personally obligated to come on down and explain to them how it works? I think not. Plus, he's already irritated with them when they're tattling anyway, such that he tells Mystra to basically shut up and quit worrying about Cyric. So, to me it makes more sense that IF Leira is trying to fake her own death, he would put her following her portfolio before any weak policy like "telling the truth".
quote:
As to him having to lie or tell the truth exactly 50% of the time, I don't see that as even remotely a stricture for Ao. He's got free will to do whatever he needs to make sure that the gods are following their portfolios and the universe's trains are all running on time. If he were to follow such a 50% policy, he'd in my view be acting a bit chaotic ("oh, do I lie today or not, let me roll the dice").
Grouping these because I'm going the same place with them.
You're right that Mystra wouldn't be compelled by mortals. And it does logically follow that Ao would not be compelled by the powers. I wasn't really trying to say that he would have to behave in a particular way as a result of his relationship with the powers... but rather as a result of his own nature.
But it ended up being an unnecessary road to go down. I wrote most of that post as I was still thinking through how it should all come together, and my brain was too fried to go back and redo the earlier part of the post. Not a good mentality for posting. 
I can agree with almost everything you're saying, except that I think lying is inherently unbalancing, and balance is Ao's purpose in existence. I guess it's not exactly like a portfolio, but it's his nature just the same. Ao is gray, neutral, the great melting pot, the One (not Neo in this case). The epitome of balance. So... all I'm sayin is it seems to me (and perhaps only me, I dunno) that either the guy lies 50% of the time, or he should avoid lying. And yes, I know lying 50% of the time is ridiculous... I guess it was a smartass way of saying I don't think Ao should lie. Not because the powers compel honesty from him in any way... but because he compels it of himself.
I'm not going to jump up and down on that point, at all. We can totally agree to disagree.
...And my best solution as of this moment is that he lied about Leira (saying she was dead, when she was not) because telling the truth could have upset the balance to a much larger degree. Lying was the lesser of the upsets. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 09:38:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to having Leira doing something for him, maybe he needs something done OUTSIDE the realms? For instance, maybe in order to fix things with the Sundering, he needs something that's located in Sigil in a secret hiding place. Gods aren't allowed to enter, so he temporarily has her give up her divine mantle in order to secretly enter the city? In fact, at some point doesn't Finder do the exact same thing in order to enter Sigil right after the ToT, wherein he has to recover the "Hand of Bane"? Hell, maybe Ao foresees Szass Tam's upcoming attempt to remake the universe, and he needs something from there in order to stop it from happening. Maybe he foresees that he's going to need something to unmerge/remerge the two worlds, Abeir and Toril, and he had it hid away in Sigil to keep it out of the hands of gods? Hell, maybe it even has to do with this item mentioned in the 4th edition campaign setting (congrats to Markustay for finding it in another thread)
This is a possibility.
I don't see Ao needing something that he couldn't just create/recreate. Maybe it's a pain in the arse to recreate it, and he's having a Lazy Day... not trying to be snarky, this is probably possible. There are certainly worse plotlines out there.
I also don't see him needing to hide something in Sigil to keep the powers away from it. True, they stole the Tablets of Fate, but I think if Ao wants a hiding place beyond the perceptions of the powers, he can make one. Which means he deliberately left the Tablets where the powers would see them (logical, since they listed portfolios... makes sense that it would be visible as a reminder to the powers) and that he also left them unguarded as a sort of intelligence test. Leave it to Bane and Myrkul to fail that test.
But...
If Ao has a reason to send someone to Sigil, I can see him picking Leira. On the one hand... if her power is stripped away, what's the advantage of sending a power over sending a mortal? On the other hand, Leira understands deception and illusion like no other power or mortal, and if the puzzles to be overcome involve penetrating subterfuge or for that matter spinning a good lie, Leira is the can-do girl.
The issue I have with this is timing. As you mention later, the idea of Leira being involved in some way in Bane and Myrkul's scheme is attractive. This being the case, it's likely that she's on Ao's list as one of the powers at whom the punishment of the gods' imprisonment on Faerun is specifically aimed. Why, then, would he send her on a vacation to Sigil?
Unless, of course, jumping in a river full of piranhas would be a more relaxing vacation than her trip to Sigil. It would have to be a pretty harrowing experience... such that she would be enraged upon her return and discovery that Bane and Myrkul were just stuck in Maui --I mean Faerun-- for a month.
And...
Who's to say that Ao actually needs whatever he sent her to retrieve? It actually makes more sense that he wouldn't need it. If she gets herself killed or refuses to cooperate, he's not stuck without some needed element. But assuming that she plays ball, perhaps the item she retrieves for Ao mutes her power, such that even when she leaves Sigil she's still severely handicapped... Almighty Ao has no sense of humor, and dislikes it when his pets assist each other in conspiracies against him. Leira's long absence (lasting from 1358 until whenever the DM decides that she reasserts herself in the Realms) is then explainable by her slowly hitchhiking across the planes to get back to her domain, from where she can access Cynosure and give Ao his stupid artifact. And spend the next year or so humbly apologizing for her abysmally poor judgment in helping Bane and Myrkul to "cover up" their wretchedly stupid act.
Yeesh. I hope she learns her lesson.
Okay. So. A good case can be made for the Leira in Sigil idea.
Personally, I still like the Godsbane idea, but I agree that there are other strong options. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 10:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to Leira being bored and taking a chance in her lie by being Godsbane just to spice things up, that I don't buy. She's already taking a chance in faking her own death. Again, not against the idea that she could be godsbane, just saying need a better reason than she was bored.
This is mixing plotlines a bit. My fault, for not separating the ideas more clearly.
The official story is that Mask was Godsbane, and that Cyric and Godsbane killed Leira.
My alternative story is that Leira was Godsbane, and Mask was somewhere else entirely. Maybe Telflamm, maybe Calimport, who knows... Mask's whereabouts is a topic for a whole separate thread. My version of the story doesn't involve Leira faking her own death... Cyric never realizes that he encountered Leira. When he "forces" Godsbane to reveal its true identity, Leira claims to be Mask. Most of the Avatar trilogy can be left intact in this story option.
Point is that when Cyric ascends, he does so with Leira inside his head, pretending to be Mask. She then accompanies him to his new home in the planes and goes on pretending to be Mask and pretending to be utterly devoted to Cyric.
Cyric obtains deceptions and illusions for his portfolio by virtue of being a compound entity. The part of Cyric that took the place of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul has their portfolios. The part of Cyric that is Leira retains her portfolio.
Cyric rapidly goes nuts. I think this is explained better by Leira being in his head than it was by Mask being in his head, because she would be going out of her way to scramble his brain. Mask... I dunno what Mask was doing. Leira would be vicariously enjoying greater godhood... and being a voice in Cyric's head... and then echoing herself over and over again, making up new voices, starting arguments between her voices, forming factions of voices threatening to throw Cyric out of his own head, etc. Her goal is overwhelming him, so that she remains undetected and free to enjoy her new digs.
In the event that Cyric finds enough clarity to confront her, she's Mask. That never happens, though.
Instead, Cyric gets the idea that he is the ultimate illusionist.
Leira is never mentioned in the Avatar trilogy. As far as the story goes, Cyric doesn't have a belief that he confronted and killed Leira. Obviously there has to be some justification for him getting deceptions and illusions in his portfolio... but that justification is not given in the story.
I'm essentially saying that Cyric, himself, doesn't have deceptions and illusions, but he believes that he does, and therefore his priests insist that he does, and the distinction doesn't matter because anyone praying to Cyric for success in a lie is going to "reach" Leira and she will determine his success or failure just as she would if he were praying to her directly.
Leira's grand deception: leading DMs and players to believe that Cyric is the one to pray to when you want to pull a fast one.
So in my version, there is no encounter with Leira to explain-away. When he steals Godsbane from Sneakabout, Leira begins progressively messing with his mind until by the time he ascends he believes that he has the ability to fool anyone, including powers, with his lies. And technically, he does... as long as Leira wants to fool that power.
Anyway, I'm totally rambling. My bad. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 10:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do really like your idea that Bane/Myrkul/both tried to get her to help them hide their theft of the tablets of fate. That's an interesting spin. Let's take that a little further. Nothing says they bluntly went to her and requested the aid. Leira could have worked through and discovered their actions. Maybe they enlisted her aid to cover their endeavour but thought they were secretly hiding their true agenda? Maybe they approached her for some powerful artifact of hiding? Maybe whenever a certain spell of illusion is used, Leira knows about it? Maybe Leira tipped off Mask as to what the two of them were doing and Mask actually told Ao (Ao may have known, but maybe he respected Mask trying to create intrigue buy informing Ao as well)? Maybe Mask knew what the two gods were plotting and actually sent them to Leira, which again follows intrigues? There's probably a lot of other options that could be gotten here. I think this idea strikes gold. I cannot stress this enough, this part really strikes gold and can help fuel a lot of scenarios.
I think it's unlikely that Bane or Myrkul would approach Leira directly for help. For one thing they're both "more powerful" (in their own eyes at least) than she is, and it would not seem rational to them that her illusions might be greater than their own. A second reason not to talk to her is that they would have to have something to offer her, and they don't want to give her anything.
I also agree that Leira could have been aware of their plan, particularly once they actually embarked on it and started using deceptions to cover their own tracks. Whether or not she would have paid attention is an open question; I dunno. It seems to me that the powers believed the Tablets of Fate to have more literal importance than they actually had, rather than the simple symbolic purpose that Ao implied. (At least, according to my memory.) So it's possible that Leira, if she shared Bane and Myrkul's view that the Tablets had actual control over Ao or whatever else, that she might have been keeping an "eye" on them... perhaps while pondering some plans of her own. If so, then she would have taken notice when Bane and Myrkul grabbed them. If not... maybe not.
I'm not excited about the idea of Mask and Leira conspiring together. Neither of them are Lawful-Stupid, the way Mystra is portrayed, so neither of them have any reason to trust each other. That doesn't necessarily stop them from working together, but alliances that can't rely on trust have to rely on something else. What is that thing, for Mask and Leira? Does one of them have some kind of leverage over the other? It's possible. But neither of them is "big" enough to establish very clear dominance over the other.
She might have told Mask what Bane and Myrkul were up to... what would her motive be? Team up with the god of thieves, and steal the Tablets? Then what? Try to overpower/leverage Mask into letting her have the tablets? Seems kinda aggressive for an illusionist. I dunno; this idea has some potential, but I'm probably too tired to get anywhere productive with it tonight.
If Bane and Myrkul talked to Mask about the Tablets, why wouldn't Mask be the one stealing the Tablets, and then Bane and Myrkul hide them? Mask's motivation for participating is that Bane and Myrkul will beat him up and steal his lunch money if he doesn't do what they tell him to...
There is definitely intrigue here. Possible plot twists aplenty.
This is not a serious suggestion, but I kinda like the idea of many powers being involved to some extent in the theft, and pretty much all of them being at least vaguely aware of it. No one is innocent. The possibility that nobody is exactly certain which of them actually stole the Tablets is also appealing. It never sat well with me that nobody pointed at Bane or Myrkul. Somebody had to know about it, but nobody said anything. What if everybody knew something, but nobody knew everything, and nobody was sure who to point a finger at? Their handicap was in not trusting or communicating with each other, in order to put their knowledge together.
Meh. My brain is turning to porridge. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 10:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the idea that Leira was infecting Cyric's mind and helped created the Cyrinishad, I like this idea as well. Not necessarily how you have it with her posing as "Mask" as Godsbane and reading the book necessarily and not being affected (though also not hating that idea either, its pretty good). I'd actually wondered if the book was her hiding similar to how Mask was hiding as Godsbane. However, my point in responding is that this general idea again bears gold and can be spun multiple ways. Maybe Ao approaches her and tells her she has to give up her divinity to do some task, and she implants the idea in Cyric's head to create the Cyrinishad as a means to regaining her portfolios later by subsuming his mind with a lie. Maybe she and Mask plot her death together, but she also plots to steal "intrigue" from Mask?
I wasn't suggesting that she read the book and resisted its effects, although I think out of all the powers, Leira would be the best-equipped to unravel the lies and come through the experience intact.
My suggestion is that it was Leira (as a cancer in Cyric's mind) who conceived, inspired, and dictated the Cyrinishad. She would of course be utterly immune to the twisting influence of her own work. Cyric, on the other hand, and every other intelligent being who glimpsed it, would be completely vulnerable. I think this part of the official story remains the same on the surface too.
I don't think Cyric is capable of writing the Cyrinishad without Leira being present in some form. It's one thing for a crazy guy to write down all the ideas bonking around in his head... it's another thing entirely for someone reading the diary to actually believe it. I would argue that they have to already be nuts in order to understand the writing of a nut. The power of the Cyrinishad depended on being able to forcibly convince people of things... to deceive people, and more pointedly powers. In order to do that, it had to be powered by Leira. Officially, that was achieved by Cyric having killed Leira and added deceptions to his portfolio. I say it's also possible to achieve it by having Leira camping out in Cyric's head as he writes it, and probably laughing her butt off. I do like that bit about her planning to reclaim her portfolio from the Cyrinishad, effectively taking her portfolio back from Cyric when she returns... ballsy, and it would be quite a coup if it worked. I want to say that if Leira is somewhere else as the Cyrinishad is being written, even if she gave him the idea to write it, it just doesn't have her power. Mortals might be corrupted by it, but no deity is likely to be deceived. But if the Cyrinishad holds her power, and Cyric is just supplying the barbecue sauce... maybe it works?
Hm. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, what does he care whether the other gods know the truth or not? Why should they even remotely demand an explanation of "god" and him come down and tell them the truth of matters? If mortals were to do that of say Mystra about something related to the running of the universe, would she feel personally obligated to come on down and explain to them how it works? I think not. Plus, he's already irritated with them when they're tattling anyway, such that he tells Mystra to basically shut up and quit worrying about Cyric. So, to me it makes more sense that IF Leira is trying to fake her own death, he would put her following her portfolio before any weak policy like "telling the truth".
quote:
As to him having to lie or tell the truth exactly 50% of the time, I don't see that as even remotely a stricture for Ao. He's got free will to do whatever he needs to make sure that the gods are following their portfolios and the universe's trains are all running on time. If he were to follow such a 50% policy, he'd in my view be acting a bit chaotic ("oh, do I lie today or not, let me roll the dice").
Grouping these because I'm going the same place with them.
You're right that Mystra wouldn't be compelled by mortals. And it does logically follow that Ao would not be compelled by the powers. I wasn't really trying to say that he would have to behave in a particular way as a result of his relationship with the powers... but rather as a result of his own nature.
But it ended up being an unnecessary road to go down. I wrote most of that post as I was still thinking through how it should all come together, and my brain was too fried to go back and redo the earlier part of the post. Not a good mentality for posting.
I can agree with almost everything you're saying, except that I think lying is inherently unbalancing, and balance is Ao's purpose in existence. I guess it's not exactly like a portfolio, but it's his nature just the same. Ao is gray, neutral, the great melting pot, the One (not Neo in this case). The epitome of balance. So... all I'm sayin is it seems to me (and perhaps only me, I dunno) that either the guy lies 50% of the time, or he should avoid lying. And yes, I know lying 50% of the time is ridiculous... I guess it was a smartass way of saying I don't think Ao should lie. Not because the powers compel honesty from him in any way... but because he compels it of himself.
I'm not going to jump up and down on that point, at all. We can totally agree to disagree.
...And my best solution as of this moment is that he lied about Leira (saying she was dead, when she was not) because telling the truth could have upset the balance to a much larger degree. Lying was the lesser of the upsets.
Yeah, I think we're both getting to the same place via slightly different semantics. I don't see it as unbalancing at all for him to lie. I also don't see it as some kind of balancing thing for him to tell the truth. What I do see is that Ao lying to support the goddess of lies pull off a lie.... that's following his ethos.
Another option is maybe he told a white lie. What if "Leira" was originally another goddess who was killed and subsumed, but the person that took over the role took on the moniker of "Leira".... because what a great lie.... and now its six thousand years later (or three thousand years, or whatever)... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Leira
