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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11711 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to having Leira doing something for him, maybe he needs something done OUTSIDE the realms? For instance, maybe in order to fix things with the Sundering, he needs something that's located in Sigil in a secret hiding place. Gods aren't allowed to enter, so he temporarily has her give up her divine mantle in order to secretly enter the city? In fact, at some point doesn't Finder do the exact same thing in order to enter Sigil right after the ToT, wherein he has to recover the "Hand of Bane"? Hell, maybe Ao foresees Szass Tam's upcoming attempt to remake the universe, and he needs something from there in order to stop it from happening. Maybe he foresees that he's going to need something to unmerge/remerge the two worlds, Abeir and Toril, and he had it hid away in Sigil to keep it out of the hands of gods? Hell, maybe it even has to do with this item mentioned in the 4th edition campaign setting (congrats to Markustay for finding it in another thread)
This is a possibility.
I don't see Ao needing something that he couldn't just create/recreate. Maybe it's a pain in the arse to recreate it, and he's having a Lazy Day... not trying to be snarky, this is probably possible. There are certainly worse plotlines out there.
I also don't see him needing to hide something in Sigil to keep the powers away from it. True, they stole the Tablets of Fate, but I think if Ao wants a hiding place beyond the perceptions of the powers, he can make one. Which means he deliberately left the Tablets where the powers would see them (logical, since they listed portfolios... makes sense that it would be visible as a reminder to the powers) and that he also left them unguarded as a sort of intelligence test. Leave it to Bane and Myrkul to fail that test.
But...
If Ao has a reason to send someone to Sigil, I can see him picking Leira. On the one hand... if her power is stripped away, what's the advantage of sending a power over sending a mortal? On the other hand, Leira understands deception and illusion like no other power or mortal, and if the puzzles to be overcome involve penetrating subterfuge or for that matter spinning a good lie, Leira is the can-do girl.
The issue I have with this is timing. As you mention later, the idea of Leira being involved in some way in Bane and Myrkul's scheme is attractive. This being the case, it's likely that she's on Ao's list as one of the powers at whom the punishment of the gods' imprisonment on Faerun is specifically aimed. Why, then, would he send her on a vacation to Sigil?
Unless, of course, jumping in a river full of piranhas would be a more relaxing vacation than her trip to Sigil. It would have to be a pretty harrowing experience... such that she would be enraged upon her return and discovery that Bane and Myrkul were just stuck in Maui --I mean Faerun-- for a month.
And...
Who's to say that Ao actually needs whatever he sent her to retrieve? It actually makes more sense that he wouldn't need it. If she gets herself killed or refuses to cooperate, he's not stuck without some needed element. But assuming that she plays ball, perhaps the item she retrieves for Ao mutes her power, such that even when she leaves Sigil she's still severely handicapped... Almighty Ao has no sense of humor, and dislikes it when his pets assist each other in conspiracies against him. Leira's long absence (lasting from 1358 until whenever the DM decides that she reasserts herself in the Realms) is then explainable by her slowly hitchhiking across the planes to get back to her domain, from where she can access Cynosure and give Ao his stupid artifact. And spend the next year or so humbly apologizing for her abysmally poor judgment in helping Bane and Myrkul to "cover up" their wretchedly stupid act.
Yeesh. I hope she learns her lesson.
Okay. So. A good case can be made for the Leira in Sigil idea.
Personally, I still like the Godsbane idea, but I agree that there are other strong options.
You make an assumption here that Ao wants to punish her. What if she was involved with the Bane/Myrkul stealing the tablets, but only from a remote perspective? What if she discovered their plotting because they took something from one of her hiding places to try and hide their act? What if she and Mask pieced it out BEFORE Bane & Myrkul stole the tablets and they warned Ao (and Ao let it unfold with full prep to cast all the gods down)? Maybe she's being rewarded by Ao for being loyal? Maybe the whole godsbane plot with Mask, her "death", and the follow up with the cyrinishad was plotted even before the gods were cast down... all with Ao's blessing? Maybe even Cyric's involvement with Mystra's death a mere 28 years later was all pre-planned as well (though that could be more of a stretch)?
As to Ao being able to recreate whatever he may need, everyone thinks he can just wave his hand and do anything. He himself declares he has limits whenever he raises up Midnight and says that bringing Mystra back from the dead is beyond him. I personally like the idea that Ao has limits to his powers, which is borne out by this canon entry. It makes so many more plots possible if he's not able to fix things by waving his hand. In fact, it may have taken a lot of "prep" to cast all the gods down as Avatars, and he really may have appreciated the "heads up" from Leira and Mask (if that's what happened) about Bane & Myrkul's upcoming actions. Heck, prior to the avatar crisis, maybe Ao was already working with Leira and Mask to recover some items that he'd hidden in the world or that were actually in other Overgod's crystal sphere's (via theft and piercing illusions)? Because, after all, maybe some of the things he needed weren't necessarily of his own manufacture. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11711 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to Leira being bored and taking a chance in her lie by being Godsbane just to spice things up, that I don't buy. She's already taking a chance in faking her own death. Again, not against the idea that she could be godsbane, just saying need a better reason than she was bored.
This is mixing plotlines a bit. My fault, for not separating the ideas more clearly.
The official story is that Mask was Godsbane, and that Cyric and Godsbane killed Leira.
My alternative story is that Leira was Godsbane, and Mask was somewhere else entirely. Maybe Telflamm, maybe Calimport, who knows... Mask's whereabouts is a topic for a whole separate thread. My version of the story doesn't involve Leira faking her own death... Cyric never realizes that he encountered Leira. When he "forces" Godsbane to reveal its true identity, Leira claims to be Mask. Most of the Avatar trilogy can be left intact in this story option.
Point is that when Cyric ascends, he does so with Leira inside his head, pretending to be Mask. She then accompanies him to his new home in the planes and goes on pretending to be Mask and pretending to be utterly devoted to Cyric.
Cyric obtains deceptions and illusions for his portfolio by virtue of being a compound entity. The part of Cyric that took the place of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul has their portfolios. The part of Cyric that is Leira retains her portfolio.
Cyric rapidly goes nuts. I think this is explained better by Leira being in his head than it was by Mask being in his head, because she would be going out of her way to scramble his brain. Mask... I dunno what Mask was doing. Leira would be vicariously enjoying greater godhood... and being a voice in Cyric's head... and then echoing herself over and over again, making up new voices, starting arguments between her voices, forming factions of voices threatening to throw Cyric out of his own head, etc. Her goal is overwhelming him, so that she remains undetected and free to enjoy her new digs.
In the event that Cyric finds enough clarity to confront her, she's Mask. That never happens, though.
Instead, Cyric gets the idea that he is the ultimate illusionist.
Leira is never mentioned in the Avatar trilogy. As far as the story goes, Cyric doesn't have a belief that he confronted and killed Leira. Obviously there has to be some justification for him getting deceptions and illusions in his portfolio... but that justification is not given in the story.
I'm essentially saying that Cyric, himself, doesn't have deceptions and illusions, but he believes that he does, and therefore his priests insist that he does, and the distinction doesn't matter because anyone praying to Cyric for success in a lie is going to "reach" Leira and she will determine his success or failure just as she would if he were praying to her directly.
Leira's grand deception: leading DMs and players to believe that Cyric is the one to pray to when you want to pull a fast one. 
So in my version, there is no encounter with Leira to explain-away. When he steals Godsbane from Sneakabout, Leira begins progressively messing with his mind until by the time he ascends he believes that he has the ability to fool anyone, including powers, with his lies. And technically, he does... as long as Leira wants to fool that power.
Anyway, I'm totally rambling. My bad.
Gotcha. No matter who was playing Godsbane though, if there's a bigger plot here, then an assumption could be that they knew Cyric would be raised up as a deity. This is why I somewhat link Leira and Mask together. The other part is that I could see these two deities having a modicum of respect for the other. Of course, they might still be plotting against one another even as they further each other's ends (for instance, maybe she intended to steal intrigue from Mask?).
The plot you lay out can be spun several ways. She could have faked her death and be in Cyric's mind whether she was playing godsbane OR whether Mask was playing that part (maybe Mask wants the murder portfolio, and thus when he was on Faerun he inhabited the weapon only once he saw that Cyric and Bhaal were going to come to a head... pushing out the previous sentience). Heck, a part of Leira could have actually inhabited what's his face the mortal that wrote the book for Cyric as well. Or maybe she IS the cyrinishad as an avatar form. Maybe she had a contingency in effect that if she were attacked by another god, it makes them think she died and infects them with a need to create an artifact using illusion which she turns on them (though that could be a little far-fetched, it could maybe be worded to work better).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11711 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:22:01
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| Oh, one other thing for the fire. As noted above, Ao says that he can't bring Mystra back from the dead, so he raises up Midnight. However, at the same time he raises up Torm from the dead. So, why can he raise one god back and not the other. Could it have something to do with them following their portfolios whenever they died? Mystra was not following her portfolio necessarily when she tried to return to the heavens and was struck down by Helm, but Torm definitely was. If Leira "dies" trying to pull off a lie, is Ao able to recreate her with little effort? Not sure where this could lead, but its a question that should be asked. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 19:52:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one other thing for the fire. As noted above, Ao says that he can't bring Mystra back from the dead, so he raises up Midnight. However, at the same time he raises up Torm from the dead. So, why can he raise one god back and not the other. Could it have something to do with them following their portfolios whenever they died? Mystra was not following her portfolio necessarily when she tried to return to the heavens and was struck down by Helm, but Torm definitely was. If Leira "dies" trying to pull off a lie, is Ao able to recreate her with little effort? Not sure where this could lead, but its a question that should be asked.
I'd say the simple explanation is the Ao said "I can't do that," not to mean he CANNOT but that he WILL NOT. Kind of like George Washington saying "I cannot tell a lie." Obviously he could, but he refused to do it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11711 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 21:29:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, one other thing for the fire. As noted above, Ao says that he can't bring Mystra back from the dead, so he raises up Midnight. However, at the same time he raises up Torm from the dead. So, why can he raise one god back and not the other. Could it have something to do with them following their portfolios whenever they died? Mystra was not following her portfolio necessarily when she tried to return to the heavens and was struck down by Helm, but Torm definitely was. If Leira "dies" trying to pull off a lie, is Ao able to recreate her with little effort? Not sure where this could lead, but its a question that should be asked.
I'd say the simple explanation is the Ao said "I can't do that," not to mean he CANNOT but that he WILL NOT. Kind of like George Washington saying "I cannot tell a lie." Obviously he could, but he refused to do it.
reread it, he specifically is like "I can't do this". Ao actually seems upset that he can't. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 21:39:19
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I also think it's more of a "will not" than a "cannot" as far as bringing Mystra back.
Observation #1:
Mystra is complicated, in a way that other deities aren't... she's tied to the Weave, and vice versa.
If Eldath dies... no big deal. Eldath is cool and all, and I'm not saying she's worthless at all, but if Eldath disappears, the Realms doesn't fall to pieces.
When there is no Mystra, magic goes haywire, and that's a big deal. And it's not that Ao really objects to magic going haywire on Faerun... that doesn't affect him... but he does have some level of care for the inhabitants of Faerun. Otherwise, he wouldn't bother trying to control the pesky powers... he'd just let them kill each other off and destroy Faerun in the process, if Faerun didn't matter. I think that Ao is more beholden to Faerun and its people than he is to the powers... but that's going to head off in a weird direction.
Point is that Mystra is never really gone. When she suicided against Helm, the Weave remained intact. From a 1400s perspective, after suffering through the Spellplague, when we look back at Mystra's several deaths... why weren't there Spellplague outbreaks? Why didn't most magic cease to function? Why didn't all the hundreds of unnaturally old wizards around the Realms crumble to dust? Why were people still able to cast spells, through the remainder of the TOT, while Mystra was dead and Midnight had not yet ascended?
Mystra wasn't dead.
And that plays some kind of part in why Ao couldn't rez her... he didn't allow her to be slain by Helm. Her avatar went poof, but Ao kept her essence in some kind of stasis so that the rest of the TOT would unfold in a way that basically pretends she wasn't stupid.
This is in stark contrast to Torm, who simply went poof. No complications.
The rest of this line of reasoning turns into more of a counterpoint for me, so I'm going to drop it here and see how everyone else responds. The point below is stronger and more directly explanatory of Ao's actions than this one, imo.
Observation #2:
It's likely that Torm wanted to come back, while Mystra's feelings would have been less positive and less coherent. She was arrogant and selfish, as evidenced by her confrontation with (and condescension toward) Helm. She would have had a lot of anger and outrage, at Helm (for having the audacity to defy and kill her) and Ao (for punishing her for someone else's misdeeds), and who knows if she would "cool off" in the near or even distant future.
Tangent, but this one is deliberate and has a point: Bane was acting within his portfolio when he stole the Tablets of Fate. Not the stealing specifically, but the attempt to increase his personal power. The fact that he was trying to take that power from Ao, and that it would have been unbalancing in Ao's opinion... that was Bane's mistake/problem/whatever. It was the spark that set off the TOT. Ao probably didn't specifically intend for Bane to die in the TOT, but he didn't have any objection to it either. Bane was arrogant and condescending and pissy... toward Ao as well as everyone else. Ao wasn't going to rez Bane, and I don't think that decision had anything to do with Bane being involved with stealing the Tablets... I think it was because Bane's attitude was too far out of line with being a god in a pantheon. Bane wanted to subjugate the entire pantheon and rule over them, killing or elevating his servants on his own whims according to how well they served him. He wanted Ao's position, without the responsibility of keeping the balance on an objective level. And he'd probably harbored those delusions of grandeur since his own ascension, or even before, and Ao was fine with that... it's only when Bane acted on it that Ao stepped in and (tried to) put him in his place. It didn't really work... Bane was still an arrogant prick through the TOT. And I believe that is why Ao left Bane dead and gave his portfolio to someone else.
Bane is relevant from the angle of comparison. Torm was mentally in the right place to resume his duties. Like Bane, however, Mystra was not.
I don't think the outcome of the TOT was planned. I don't see Ao arranging any particular outcome... why would he bother with the whole TOT thing if he just wanted to smite Bane and Myrkul? Ao engineered the TOT to teach all the powers humility (toward him) and responsibility/compassion/whatever (toward the people of Faerun). Some of the powers (like Eldath, for one example) already had a decent mindset about their responsibilities, but many didn't and even well-behaved children (I mean deities) can use an occasional reminder that it's important to choose your friends and role models wisely. I definitely can't see any of the powers foreseeing the rise of Cyric... for one thing, he would have been more of a conscious target for many of the avatars if anyone had an inkling of his future. Plus the TOT was punishment, unexpectedly placed on the powers by Ao. He didn't give them any warnings until the actual *boom* and it doesn't make sense to me that he would allow them to see any hints about what was going to happen. And he certainly had the ability to block their divinations... particularly while they were avatars and Ao was the only god. If one of the avatars knew that Cyric was going to ascend, then they logically might also see that they themselves would come through the TOT okay... and that complacency would defeat the whole purpose of punishing them.
Yuck, I'm rambling again.
Shuttin up for now. Going to work on a couple of other things for a bit, and give this a chance to percolate. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 21:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
reread it, he specifically is like "I can't do this". Ao actually seems upset that he can't.
Yar, I will have to reread it too. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 09:23:55
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Paging through Faiths & Avatars for another project has illuminated a few "facts" that I'd previously missed due to not realizing that Leira had an entry in that book.
1. There was apparently an alliance between Leira and Mask. I don't put much stock in that, due to the natures of Leira and Mask, but F&A says so, so that becomes available support for theories involving Mask and Leira cooperating in some fashion. 
2. Mask betrayed Leira to Cyric, who used Godsbane to kill her. I guess Mask was too stupid to recognize the value of Leira's portfolio to himself, so he gave to his good buddy Cyric. 
3. "Leira perished shortly after the Time of Troubles." This means that Mask was blindly enamored of Cyric even before the Cyrinishad. So in a few short months during 1358, we went from a low level thief maybe paying lip service to Mask... to Mask worshiping the psychotic selfish idiotic crybaby thief.
That this "story" needs a rewrite goes without saying. I'm extending my hiatus from it, however, due to my acute peevishness. I still maintain that Leira's death was faked and that she (and perhaps Mask) are enjoying the high life of greater godhood by turning Cyric's mind to porridge.
I'll put up a new Leira thread later in another part of the forums, and recap the theory without the "thinking as I type" that wasted a bunch of space in this thread. Turns out the "Sages" area is meant to be discussion of canon. Woops! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11711 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Paging through Faiths & Avatars for another project has illuminated a few "facts" that I'd previously missed due to not realizing that Leira had an entry in that book.
1. There was apparently an alliance between Leira and Mask. I don't put much stock in that, due to the natures of Leira and Mask, but F&A says so, so that becomes available support for theories involving Mask and Leira cooperating in some fashion.
2. Mask betrayed Leira to Cyric, who used Godsbane to kill her. I guess Mask was too stupid to recognize the value of Leira's portfolio to himself, so he gave to his good buddy Cyric.
3. "Leira perished shortly after the Time of Troubles." This means that Mask was blindly enamored of Cyric even before the Cyrinishad. So in a few short months during 1358, we went from a low level thief maybe paying lip service to Mask... to Mask worshiping the psychotic selfish idiotic crybaby thief.
Yep, see #2 and #3 just don't sound right. If he were going to betray Leira, why wouldn't it be to get power for himself? Unless of course, he and Leira had worked something out and there's some other unseen plot..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 19:30:41
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| Mask may have done some stupid things, but he was definitely not a stupid god. Mask would understand the difference between a gamble and a risk better than any other Faerūnian god, he played a complex gambit and he lost ... even gods can't always win. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Jan 2013 19:31:10 |
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leina.ombredor
Acolyte
France
1 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2014 : 11:55:18
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Well, assuming that Mask is told as the only ally of Leira, but that Leira, after the Time of Troubles, is the only alive ally of Mask, since Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul died, i think that it seems not very smart from the God of Thieves to kill her.
My theory is that Ao's said Leira was dead because Cyric and Leira are just one and then Leira's name doesn't exist anymore. Leira planned to become a Greater Power, possessing the body and mind of a mortal being to hide, and succeed with the help of Mask / Godsbane who never treached her !
Then she faked her death. But her problem is that she could not completely overcome Cyric's mind - for a reason that is unknown, that's why she forced him to write and read the Cyrinishad. Things then didn't turn as she expected, and she/he turned *really* insane, mixing their personalities into a single one, mad and perverted.
I can't believe that Leira's been killed so easily ; after the Time of Troubles, Ao rules that no Power could personaly *be* on Toril ; and Powers can only be killed in the Outer Planes. Who could imagine that Leira in person let somebody, even Cyric, trap her in the Outer Planes ? And if Cyric killed her on Toril, then he only killed her Avatar since she couln't have been personaly there.
The idea that tell that Leira was Godsbane is interesting, but doesn't answer that question : if Leira was Godsbane, where was Mask during the Time of Troubles ? He could have hide away... but he's not someone who refuses an opportunity, and becoming the only friend of a greater deity looks like one he could not have neglected.
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Leira
