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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 00:28:40
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The region which is between the giant's belt in durpar eastern boundry, the plains of purple dust northern boundry, the veldorn as southern boundry, and the dragonsword mountains western boundry,
what is it called, or does ALL this belong to the veldorn area??
thanks for advice.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 00:50:33
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What era/edition?
3e screwed-up the maps - that band between the two mountain ranges should be narrower, and its called "Fuirgar, Land of the Stone Giants". You can barely discern it on the Old Empires map, but you can see it quite clearly on the map that came in The Horde box.
Durpar is weird - it lies on both sides of the Golden Waters, and covers most of the northern coast (although precisely where its eastern border is, who knows? I am not even sure if it actually borders Ulgarth or not). Veldorn is basically the south-east corner of the Shaar, just before you get into the Shining Lands' proper. It lies mostly between the Aerilpar/Forest of Dark Trees, the lowlands west of the Curna Mountains, and the Thrulaliel (western Toadsquat) Mountains.
Thommar is another 'lost land' that was around there somewhere, although we don't know enough about it to place it precisely (except that it was south of the Raurin). My best guess is that it was between Durpar and Ulgarth, and at one time covered most of the northern cost of the Shining Sea. As it fell into decline, Durpar kept 'eating' more and more of its territory.
When we were doing the Utter East (thread), we figured out that Thommar probably fell (finally) because of a lot of back-and-forth barbarian raiding from the southern Shaar - we found a few tidbits pertaining to that (tribes of Arkaiuns appear to have 'gone raiding', and then were driven back out by Unther and Mulhorand). Veldorn was destroyed around that time as well (although nothing indicates it was already in decline, as Thommar seemed to be). Veldorn seemed to have gotten the worst of that.
A lot of that is conjecture based upon limited sources.
EDIT: Some great info about that area can be gleaned from HERE (under FR16 Shining South).
*Grammatical corrections |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2013 16:37:13 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 08:08:44
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Thnaks Markus,
I mean the 3e map indeed, and I agree it messed up many many things.
I was mainly asking for my researches about the greenskins in this area.
In the Curna mountains, there are many goblinoids, which, according to 4e frcs, finally wore down durpar when it entered the merchant wars, so I guess they were pretty dominant before already.
I think it absolutely possible - how otherwise ;) - that these goblinoids also were responsible for the downfall or thommar and veldorn. It is also especially stated, that several of the big merchants houses in Durpar allied with the greenskins - eventually another hint that they were the main force raiding these two kingdoms, and not barbarians.
With supplies from big merchants houses, and their rears covered, the goblinoids would probably have enjoyed nothing more than raiding thommar and veldorn....
I think i finally have to get the horde box from ebay or somewhere, since many information seem to linger in there, especially regarding the otherwise "border regions" of the traditional maps, mainly the big 3e map.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 16:49:21
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I forget where all the info came from - two others did most of the 'digging' for that stuff, and made me aware of it. All the pertinent info is in the old Utter East thread, but you have to slog through pages and pages of 'what if' scenarios we kept coming up with (probably mostly me). I really should go back through that thread (AGAIN) and skim all the valuable canon info out of it - we uncovered quite a bit of interesting things (from all over - you'd be amazed at where lore about that region got stuck).
The only thing I recall off the top of my head are 'barbarian invasions' that got as far as Ulgarth before being turned back. Since they couldn't have come from any other direction then north (in retrospect, not at the time 2eSS was written), and we found several (IIRC) entries regarding Arkauins 'getting uppity' (to the point where Unther and Mulhorand had to cooperate!), we tied it all together (to the time when the native Shaar people first became Arkauins, do to an influx of Rus blood from the north... damn Bloodstone lands AND the Northmen of the Swordcoast got heavily involved with this region for various reasons. I had thrown together a couple of timelines, but every iteration had its imperfections (hard to tie EVERYTHING together).
The goblinoids of the northern range (Dustwall) were fairly 'civilized' (for goblins) until quite recently (see the short story Vision in Realms of Infamy). The southern range (Curna) are also know as 'The Mountains of Wisdom'... not sure why. I believe we found a few references of Rakshasa operating in that region (and on up into the Old Empires). Maybe some mystics liked to travel into those mountains for 'enlightenment'? (where the enlightenment would actually be disguised Rakshasa feeding them false information for their own agendas). We also had two 'prophet's (who are remarkably similar, even in name) come from that region as well.
Someday I'd like to get back to that area and 'repair' everything. Maybe I'll go through that thread again later today. 
*Fixed some minor grammatical issues |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jan 2013 14:14:03 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 09:16:21
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Thanks for this great info!
I got mainly intrigued to think the goblinoids finally stirred, for there are quite a few activities of goblinoid races involved heavily since the 1370's.
I would've wondered if not maybe the goblinoid gods finally spoke to their people ( like they did to the hobgoblins following the sythilisians, as stated by Ed ) to start "advancing"
If you look on the overall map, in various areas the humanoids, heavily involving goblinoid races, have gained ground in the last 100 years, and in some places even founded permanent kingdoms / settlements.
With all the trouble called by the spellplague, I think it was some kind of starting shot for them to finally begin folding out a 2master plan" developed for ages.
In some areas they did not achieve their goals ( stonelands i.e. - i think the shade returning just was a variable not planned in ) but on the large map of faerun, goblinoids have become a presence again.
eventually it was started also by some of the leftovers of the giantspire tribes, which had seen that when led efficiently and carefully planning, as under soneillon, they can achieve quite a lot.
It ALSO states that in secluded areas, the tribal territories of the goblinoids are "accepted" if not even "respected".
The region I was referring to, is exactly fitting in this kind of thinking. It is not heavily populated, and no big kingdom has a claim to it.
goblinoids have been prominent in the area for a long time, so they could have built their numbers significantly.
That they have plenty of warriors is shown by the fact that durpar merchant houses hired a good portion of them into their armies during the merchant wars there.
With all the information given by THO and Ed about hobgoblins in specific, it would start making sense.
They usually are quite happy with what they have, for maintaining does not cost a lot of energy.
But if opportunities arise, such as with the sythilisians - where they can wage war on big scale, and still the "big bad ogres" will take the blaim - they are in.
And - the idea of a masterplan directed by Maglublyet and his church alone is imho simply great ;) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 14:54:37
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Well, if Gruumsh has suddenly embraced 'civilized' (for whatever bizarre reason), then perhaps Maglubiyet - tired of playing 'second fiddle' to the Orc pantheon - went completely the other way and had his folk embrace 'feral'.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 16:50:41
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You say it...
But now back to topic, has this wide range of grassland a name? is it former Thomnar? Or just a prolonged eastern shaar region borderin the plains of purple dust? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 23:02:40
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What grassland?
The Eastern Shaar is officially called The Eastern Shaar (whereas the western half on the other side of the Landrise is known simply as 'The Shaar'). The very SE corner of the Shar is called 'Veldorn', even though the country by that name fell many years ago. No-one (in our world... except maybe Ed) knows what the extent of Veldorn once was - it has simply become a designator for a monster-filled geographic region. As I said earlier, the region between the mountain ranges is Fuirgar, although if that is 'common knowledge' I have no idea. If I had to make an educated guess, I would say that the stone Giants actually live in the mountains, but consider the huge valley between them their territory (whether they are using it or not).
At one time I had figured Thommar was that 'no-mans land' between Ulgarth and Durpar, and is now part of both (mostly Durpar, though). I figure the river Xon ran through the center of Thommar, and that is now the border between the two current kingdoms (although Ulgarth rarely extends any sort of control that far north). I came to these conclusions based upon what little we had to go on from Desert of desolation. That is how I represented it on my old Hordelands map.
Unfortunately, whoever decided to place Bralizzar (DoD) put it way to the west, just above Turelve... dead-center of current day Durpar. At the time it was placed they only had the old SS product to go on, and now we have more info on how the Shining lands are laid out, and their history (as of 3e). In order to rectify all of that, that is why I now say Durpar has always been on the SW coast of the Golden Waters, and it didn't spread north (to the eastern reach of the Golden waters) until after Veldorn fell (because I have to assume such a large, powerful nation would have had at least one port on that body of water). Then after the Arkauin barbarians swept back through (on their way home from their brief foray into Ulgarth), they steam-rolled over whatever was left of Thommar as well, allowing Durpar to continue its push north and then east all around the Golden waters (over the course of a couple of centuries).
PURE Homebrew: The last vestige of Thommar was a wedge of land (that I marked on the above linked map), ruled by a princess and last heir to the throne. She ruled in name only, because she had no power, no army, and collected no taxes. The few small, rural settlements in that region still referred to her as their Queen and gave her respect, but that was about it. When the Tuigan war broke-out, the folk of the Golden waters feared they would be next on Yamun Kahan's list, and that his army would come through the all-but-forgotten 'Pass of Doom' (so named since the days of Imaskar). Durpar began to amass troops on the Thommar border and planned to move north and occupy the pass. Ulgarth - fearing more that Durpar was become too powerful in the region by this move - also moved north to occupy the pass. The Ulgarthi prince met with the young Queen and in a brilliant move ask for her hand in marriage. Having no other options (and not wanting her people to become mere peasants of Durpar) took the offer, which united the two realms and peoples. What began as a spontaneous act of desperation eventually blossomed into true love (the prince was smitten at first site).
The Durpari continued north to the pass, where they met with the Ulgarth forces. The two choose to put aside any differences and work together, constructing a citadel across the pass which both would occupy, and with the help of magic (and ensorcelled creatures) they managed to build their fortifications in record time (juts a few weeks). But the attack never came - Yamun Kahan turned east after conquering Semphar and never bothered with the south (perhaps fearing another run-in with Tan Chin's undead legions in Solon). Once the Tugian were defeated and they dispersed, the Durpari pulled most of its forces back to the other side of Xon river, where it claimed the new border lie. Ulgarth is yet to dispute this (despite its new queen fuming at the lose). They did leave behind a force of 250 men in the untrried citadel at the pass, as did Ulgarth, because both consider themselves part owners.
This is how it remain until today - a small town has grown up around the citadel at the end of the pass, and its becoming quite a center of trade with kara-Tur. It is only a matter of time before the greedy Durpari guilds begin eying Flyndag (the name of both the fortress and settlement) and try to claim it as solely Durpari territory (as they have done with the rest of the northern Golden Waters thus-far). Many, many years ago Bralizzar was part of thommar, and was in much the same position and had the same importance - Ulgarth does not want a repeat of that.
As I said, lots and LOTS of conjecture based upon very little to go on. YMMV. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2013 23:14:20 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 07:55:40
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Ok I think I described it wrong eventually.
I mean the stretch of Land between veldorn and fuirgar on your hordelands map. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 19:26:38
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My assumption has always been that Fuirgar (the land claimed by the giants, whether they actually occupy it or not) extended to the southern tip of the Dragonsword Mountains, and that Veldorn extended north to meet that same border (bearing in mind the whole time that the very concept of 'hard' borders doesn't really exist in the Realms, at least not in Faerûn).
At one time it was definitely part of Imaskar, and then Imaskar fell, and there were between 12-20 'survivor states', Veldorn amongst them (although that last part is technically an assumption, but 'something' had to have been there, whether it was called Veldorn then or not). Those survivors ranged anywhere from a single citystate (Solon) to massive nations unto themselves (Semphar & Murghôm), and the borders of all of them may have changed several times (the ones to east, like Shou-Lung), or they may have disappeared completely (Thommar and Bakar). As of right now (the campaign setting from 1e-4e), Veldorn is 'monster territory' and no longer a true nation, and since that area you are talking about falls-out between that and a giant kingdom (which may have fallen itself, or be in decline), I'd just say its considered part of Veldorn (which has become a term describing that entire uncivilized region).
And once again, that area is supposed to be narrower - more like a huge valley between two mountain ranges. If I ever get to this area with my maps I plan to make all the proper correction (tracing the terrain layout from the 1e maps).
Considering the fallen nation of Zexthandrim (Kobolds), the info we can glean from the history in the Wyrmbane Helm entry (pg.104, Dragon Magic), the Purple Dragon Gaumahavi, and some things George Krashos has 'mused upon', I would say that there is also a very good chance of large quantities of dragons in those mountains (Dragonsword?), who may have either been allies or servants of the Imaskari, and more then likely had their own kingdoms in that region at some point in time (probably several, spread over FR's vast history... I think there may even be at least one 'current' one there according to the 4e lore).
Hmmmmm... in fact... this train of thought has just given rise to another interesting tidbit for my (homebrew) Imaskari lore, if I ever get back to that. 'The Veldorn' may have been a feeding ground for Imaskari dragons. I picture large quantities of game been 'fenced in' by the mountains just for the dragons to hunt. I wonder if they enjoy the taste of Loxo?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2013 19:48:52 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 01:44:12
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| There is a rakshasa city in Veldorn, Tirumala, in the Curna Mountains but I believe that city rose during the Spellplague from what I gather. Still, it does prove a sizeable rakshasa population. |
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Cartographers / geography question
