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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 22:07:09
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Hello... I just reread some stuff in Netheril Boxed set... And it says some very interesting things.
First of all I need to say that this question is directed at 3,5ed around 1380DR
I read a spell that does time travel called Time Conduit its a level 9 spell, so it should still work, or is there something that would prevent the spell from working? And also how likely is it to find the spell and where possible???
There is also mentioning of different kind of spell casters. The list of high mages is either called Arcanists or Arch Wizards. What is the difference?
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 12 Jan 2013 15:21:35
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 22:54:29
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(Based on the AD&D2E Netheril boxset)
Time travel in the Realms is strictly regulated by Mystra, it is simply impossible for mortal spellcasters to make such magics function without Mystra's blessing. Chronomancer adds greater detail to all aspects of time travel, but it is entirely optional and involved enough to steal focus away from the Netheril/Realms campaigning.
Arcanists are equivalent to Wizards, although they cast "arcs" instead of spells (which are measured by "depth" instead of "level") and have a different level progression. Their arcs are a cumulative total which can be allocated towards spells as they see fit, rather than following a fixed spell progression table. They organize magic in three categories, from which each arcanist "specialized" in one, could use a second, and was forbidden from the third; there were no generic "mage" arcanists capable of casting all magics.
Arch Wizards are equivalent to Archmages, although they were not officially permitted to use this title until they had made themselves a floating city (which involved 10th level magics, so they would have to be minimum 20th level). They continued to gain ever-higher spell levels, at least up to 12th level (but Karsus's avatar is the only 12th level spell known).
Modern wizards cannot cast spells in ancient Netheril, and ancient arcanists cannot cast arcs in the modern Realms, but Netheril provides rules for spellcasters to (re)learn how to get their magic to function in the other setting. Rules for retro-1E gaming are provided as well, since ancient Netheril existed long before the Avatar Crisis heralded 2E. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 01:04:19
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So Arcanist is a like a title... like lord. Thats cool!
Getting back to the time traveling question… If it up to Mystra to allow it, it that like saying it’s up to the DM or is there a canon answer to whether or not she would allow it? Specifically 3,5ed ?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 01:19:50
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My answers are 2E lore. Read your 3E/3.5E lore to confirm if they still apply.
Yes, Mystra can permit or deny or manipulate all attempts at time travel in the Realms, as detailed in the box set.
And yes, Mystra (or any other deity) is basically just a mask for the DM to hide behind. A "built-in" method of providing the DM a way to flat out reject time travel. I suppose some justification would need to be provided if Mystra could look into the hearts of your PCs and judge them devout allies (or vile enemies) of her faith yet responded unexpectedly, but hey, she's a mysterious, whimsical, and sometimes fickle creature so anything is possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 11:16:08
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| ok... I thought it might be like her ban of 10th and above level spells... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 11:26:11
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| I would treat time travel as a 10th level spell, just to "standardize" it alongside other unique spells (and 10th level spellcasting has requirements slightly higher than those for a standard archmage), although it is technically written as a 9th level spell. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 12:22:26
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| If you treat it (Time Conduit) like a level 10 true dweomer, in 3,5ed im prette sure you not going to be able to cast it. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 13:35:35
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Big adventure possibilities in finding an NPC capable of casting such spells, then somehow getting him to do it for you.
Moving the campaign between periods of history is essentially equivalent to moving it between different worlds ... and there's no need to imagine what havoc PCs might cause with time travel. Campaigns about chronomancers and "timelords" are fine (as are Planescape and Spelljammer), but they move from world to world casually and when playing a Realms campaign I prefer to keep the focus anchored within a Realms (that is, present Realms) campaign. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:20:05
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Yes... havoc indeeeed!! 
Timetravel seems like a dangerous thing to do. Since I have never read about it in neither 3.0 or 3.5 rulebook, could one assume that it has been sort of written out of the setting? Or do I just have really bad eyes?
Speaking of spelljammer... If I remember correctly, it is a space travel campaign, but was it travel between crystal spheres or just between planets like Toril and others I don’t know the name of, inside the same sphere?
I also remember reading about Yeoman’s Loft… Now as I could gather, it was a city. Is this correct? And where was it situated?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Yes... havoc indeeeed!!
Timetravel seems like a dangerous thing to do. Since I have never read about it in neither 3.0 or 3.5 rulebook, could one assume that it has been sort of written out of the setting? Or do I just have really bad eyes?
Speaking of spelljammer... If I remember correctly, it is a space travel campaign, but was it travel between crystal spheres or just between planets like Toril and others I don’t know the name of, inside the same sphere?
I also remember reading about Yeoman’s Loft… Now as I could gather, it was a city. Is this correct? And where was it situated?
Spelljamming assumes that planets are in solar systems, and each solar system is in a huge crystal sphere. It's possible to use spelljammers to travel between planets within a sphere, or to leave the sphere and head to a different one.
As for the ships, they weren't proper spacecraft -- it was more an idea of taking your standard flying ship and going a bit higher. Even a standard sailing ship, constructed for sailing on water, could become a spelljammer, just with the addition of a spelljamming helm (a magical seat which converted memorized spells into thrust).
Arcane space isn't the same as real space. All ships would automatically have a gravity plane, usually running thru the ship's largest dimension (since most ships are longer than they are tall, that meant that "down" stayed in the same direction in space as it did on a planet). And that gravity plane would hold an envelope of air around the ship, so there were no concerns about losing air or explosive decompression.
Yeoman's Loft was a flying enclave, as I recall, so asking about its location is kind of academic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:59:39
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Its been awhile since this stuff was discussed, but IIRC Mystryl didn't put (m)any constraints on time travel, but when Mystra took-over the job she did. She had time in her portfolio during the Netherese period, but so did Aumanator (a contractual discrepancy) so I have to assume she did not exert too much will over time to avoid conflict.
Mystras 1.0/Midnight didn't have to deal with the Aumanator issue, and could have possibly adding the restraints on time travel after the fall of Netheril. Either way, time-travel is always very messy.
Sadly, the only time I think it was handled well was in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, and they did it in a very humorous way. You have to leave yourself notes telling yourself to do things, otherwise you won't know to do them once you change the timeline. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2013 16:00:18 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 16:26:28
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| Well, yeah, there is the Amaunator technicality. Oghma, Deneir, and Milil are interested in preserving history. Various other deities (local and foreign) have made claims of some sort of another over time in the Realms. But Mystra is essentially the ultimate authority in governing access to time travel. I assume everyone has read the time travel sections of the Netheril boxset, so no need to post it all in this scroll. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 17:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Yes... havoc indeeeed!!
Timetravel seems like a dangerous thing to do. Since I have never read about it in neither 3.0 or 3.5 rulebook, could one assume that it has been sort of written out of the setting? Or do I just have really bad eyes?
Speaking of spelljammer... If I remember correctly, it is a space travel campaign, but was it travel between crystal spheres or just between planets like Toril and others I don’t know the name of, inside the same sphere?
I also remember reading about Yeoman’s Loft… Now as I could gather, it was a city. Is this correct? And where was it situated?
Spelljamming assumes that planets are in solar systems, and each solar system is in a huge crystal sphere. It's possible to use spelljammers to travel between planets within a sphere, or to leave the sphere and head to a different one.
As for the ships, they weren't proper spacecraft -- it was more an idea of taking your standard flying ship and going a bit higher. Even a standard sailing ship, constructed for sailing on water, could become a spelljammer, just with the addition of a spelljamming helm (a magical seat which converted memorized spells into thrust).
Arcane space isn't the same as real space. All ships would automatically have a gravity plane, usually running thru the ship's largest dimension (since most ships are longer than they are tall, that meant that "down" stayed in the same direction in space as it did on a planet). And that gravity plane would hold an envelope of air around the ship, so there were no concerns about losing air or explosive decompression.
Yeoman's Loft was a flying enclave, as I recall, so asking about its location is kind of academic.
Academic.. I dont get it? I just thought, that since it mentioned the place like somewhere to go I would asume that people of at least that age knew where it was. But is was in space right? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 19:28:45
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NO.
Yeoman's Loft appears on the map in the Nethril Box set - it is just off the NE tip of the God's Legion Mountains (which are today know as the Desertmouth Mountains).
However, Wooly is correct, and the positions given for the various enclaves is probably the most frequent placement - they could move about (and theoretically I suppose Yeoman's Loft could have been granted some sort of Spelljammer-like capabilities).
The only Enclave in my Realms with SJ capabilities was Nautilus, which was unfortunately destroyed soon after its creation, before it was ever tested to be space-worthy. Thats pure homebrew - and the enclave lies off the coast of Kara-Tur, and the people are very much still alive (although its founder - Seluj Enrev died when the weave collapsed, which is when his city also plummeted into the sea). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 19:48:24
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| I believe there were only two enclaves capable of spelljamming in canon, and I think only a handful (perhaps even a dozen) capable of planar transit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 04:19:16
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My bad, I just checked the boxed set... Yeoman's Loft was not, in fact, a flying enclave. Apologies, Nic. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 20:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My bad, I just checked the boxed set... Yeoman's Loft was not, in fact, a flying enclave. Apologies, Nic.
No probs man
Where ever or what ever is was, there is talk about the complete-ness of its libraries, can anyone tell me why Yeoman's Loft had these very complete or grand libraries? Or what was so special about them? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 22:05:15
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| Really, we don't have much more than a blurb about Yeoman's Loft. I'd guess, though, that as the center of Netheril's space program (such as it was) a lot of research went on there, and much lore was gathered. It was likely that with much traffic going through there, the city's libraries had a chance to collect a lot of material. Not Candlekeep or Sarth amounts of lore, but an impressive amount, I'm sure. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 23:00:42
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
Really, we don't have much more than a blurb about Yeoman's Loft. I'd guess, though, that as the center of Netheril's space program (such as it was) a lot of research went on there, and much lore was gathered. It was likely that with much traffic going through there, the city's libraries had a chance to collect a lot of material. Not Candlekeep or Sarth amounts of lore, but an impressive amount, I'm sure.
Well, why not? Netheril was around a long time ... the Nether Age 326NY to the Fall 3520NY is a period over 3,000 years. The combined spellbooks of Netheril's many arcanists would probably fill several libraries. Compare to Candlekeep, which has been around for perhaps 17 centuries (not all of which were dedicated to the accumulation of knowledge). |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 23:12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Hello... I just reread some stuff in Netheril Boxed set... And it says some very interesting things.
First of all I need to say that this question is directed at 3,5ed around 1380DR
I read a spell that does time travel called Time Conduit its a level 9 spell, so it should still work, or is there something that would prevent the spell from working? And also how likely is it to find the spell and where possible???
Time Conduit is an extant spell in the Year of the Blazing Hand. It is a very rare spell, known to few wizards in Faerun at that time. In addition to being in the collections of these few wizards, some copies of the spell exist in tomes long lost. A prodigious magic-user could also recreate Time Conduit independently, through long years of rigorous study.
All other forms of Chronomancy are STRICTLY regulated by the Lady of Mysteries.
In 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, Time Conduit functions as follows:
Time Conduit
Conjuration (Creation), Chronomancy
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 30 feet
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None
Arcane Material Component: One scale from three dragons, each of a different alignment, dust from a slain time elemental, and soil from the destination land of the time conduit.
Upon casting this spell, a shimmering golden portal appears somewhere close to the caster (though the caster has no idea where the portal appears). The 10-foot circular opening appears to lead into a long tunnel filled with silvery-blue flashes of light. Creatures that gaze into the tunnel for more than one round begin to see glimpses of their past cascading past the walls of the tunnel, though these memories cause no damage. The portal remains for one round per level of the wizard or until the caster enters the conduit, whichever occurs first.
During casting, the wizard names the age and year that the time conduit is to transport those who enter it. For example, a wizard who wanted to visit Netheril around the time of Karsus’s birth would state: “During the Shadowed Age of Netheril, in the year 3163 NY.” Creatures entering the time conduit spell are immediately stripped of all magical items and memorized spells (though spell books and scrolls remain; psionics are likewise depleted, though they return at the normal rate). In addition, items that do not yet exist in the time are removed, such as full-plate armor, arquebuses, and most gnomish inventions. Stripped items are stored in the conduit and are returned during the voyage home to the time travelers (but the return trip likewise strips travelers of items they have collected during their stay, creating a storehouse on each end of the conduit where time travelers can leave their belongings). Spells that do not exist in the current age appear as blank pages in a spellcaster’s spell book. Scrolls that do not yet exist in the current time are likewise blank. Blank pages return to normal when the time traveler returns to his own time or when the spell becomes available during his stay in the new time (such as by it being created during the year in which they’re in the past).
There is never a way to determine the precise destination when using a time conduit spell. The only thing for certain is that the time travelers appear somewhere in the lands that they seek. For example, travelers entering Netheril might appear in the southern city of Thiefsward or they might appear as far north as Coldfoot. They might even appear on the High Ice or somewhere deep in the Eastern Forest.
Time travelers always arrive during the festivities celebrating the new year; they always return to their own times during the final night of the year. These are the times when the mystical energies and the forces of time are most powerful on Toril. Nothing can prevent a time traveler from being drawn into the time conduit at the close of the year, even spells that negate magic or shield against its effects. Upon returning to their own time, creatures discover that one month has passed since they left (though they have still aged one full year).
Also, time travelers can not exist more than once in a particular time-once a traveler time-travels to a particular year, he can never return to that year again. Any attempt to do so simply fails, and the caster is instead hurled 1d100 years into a random time and place.
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 23:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Where ever or what ever is was, there is talk about the complete-ness of its libraries, can anyone tell me why Yeoman's Loft had these very complete or grand libraries? Or what was so special about them?
The discovery of Chardalyns is often touted as the single most important event in Netherils history. This discovery drove the Netherese to seek out mystic minerals with a fervor unmatched; a fervor that drove them even into the Sea of Night.
However, the Arcanists of Netheril were a scourge across the spheres, raiding, stealing and vivisecting as they went. The library at Yeoman's Loft, which far surpassed the great Library of Netheril, was the direct beneficiary of these murderous incursions, and also housed secret, dark laboratories for experimentation with profane arcane technologies.
Butler, J. and slade Netheril: Empire of Magic 11/1996. TSR, Inc. ISBN 10 0-7869-0437-2, ISBN 13 978-0786904372. |
Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 14 Jan 2013 23:58:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 23:38:40
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| Citations on referenced material, please. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2013 23:39:30 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 23:55:03
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Sure thing, Wooly Rupert!
(Post edited above edited.) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 23:58:52
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I don't recall Netherese arcanists being any kind of scourge across the spheres ... a contained scourge across much of Realmspace and some of the immediate flow, perhaps, and even that for only a very short period before they became enough of an arrogant nuisance to be violently suppressed by every other spacefaring group they met. Several archwizards were noted for their bizarre obsession with Spelljamming, but these individuals were anomalous and treated as outcasts.
A larger number of Netherese arcanists (and a few archwizards) were active across the planes, expanding on Lord Shadow's work in the last ages of Netheril's history. These would be powerful individuals, but I think hardly capable of scourging the planes since I happen to know what sorts of creatures they would have likely encountered. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 00:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't recall Netherese arcanists being any kind of scourge across the spheres ... a contained scourge across much of Realmspace and some of the immediate flow, perhaps, and even that for only a very short period before they became enough of an arrogant nuisance to be violently suppressed by every other spacefaring group they met. Several archwizards were noted for their bizarre obsession with Spelljamming, but these individuals were anomalous and treated as outcasts.
You should check out the Netheril boxed set; nasty bastards, those Netherese-in-space. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 00:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I believe there were only two enclaves capable of spelljamming in canon, and I think only a handful (perhaps even a dozen) capable of planar transit.
Oh, and this is DEAD WRONG.
You should delete it promptly. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 00:35:51
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Netheril maintained an active presence (and indeed they were quite nasty) for almost exactly one century before (with the exception of a few individuals) they completely abandoned interest in spelljamming. Much of this was because, for about 50 years at this point, Netherese ships were being attacked on sight by everybody else they met. Fifty or one hundred years is a long time to be sure, but hardly enough to become a terrifying scourge of the space lanes, especially since one should ask why would Netheril withdraw from spelljamming if actually had such a dominant presence?
My statements about enclaves were meant in the context of the actual enclaves themselves being mobile across space or the planes; including the mythallar and entire floating mountain/city with all inhabitants. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 01:00:17
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| Nowhere in Realms canon is it even intimated that there was ever even a *single* enclave capable of spelljamming. Your comments are DEAD WRONG. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 05:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Sure thing, Wooly Rupert!
(Post edited above edited.)
Thanks for the citation, but just a page number and source is good. That's a rule that exists to cover the collective backside.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 05:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I believe there were only two enclaves capable of spelljamming in canon, and I think only a handful (perhaps even a dozen) capable of planar transit.
Oh, and this is DEAD WRONG.
You should delete it promptly.
I think this is over-reacting, a bit. It would have been sufficient to say it was not correct.
It certainly didn't need to be repeated. That is coming across as antagonistic, which I'm sure wasn't your intention. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 05:26:25
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| Thank you; I am equally sure that your call for citation was also not meant to be antagonistic. |
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