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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 13:53:02
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Since I know Eric posts here... this is aimed at you and anyone else who might be able to translate it. I'm almost done the second shadowbane novel and no explanation as yet has been given. Will there be an explanation? I'm just wondering because I know in the first book it said Myrin held a goddess within her... now Umbra starts mutering this. However, Myrin doesn't throw around a lot of illusions, and everything else seems to hint that she might be something else. Just wanted to throw this up while it was in my mind.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 02:09:28
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| Can't you send him private messages? Shouldn't topics be about things anyone can comment on :( ? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Can't you send him private messages? Shouldn't topics be about things anyone can comment on :( ?
Not necessarily, since other designers working on the same lore, as well as folk who have assisted them in the past -- like George Krashos -- might have additional insights they can provide to a specifically focused query like this. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:09:47
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| I would love to see Leira come back. The first character I ever played in the Realms was a Leiran cleric, so she's always had a soft spot in my warm, fuzzy heart. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:10:03
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Remember that WotC is serious in bringing back a plethora of lost gods. Leira is one of them, I suppose. Although, I never thought her dead. If there's anyone in all the known pantheons who can "fake" her death, it's the deity of illusion. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:18:07
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I understand why they took her out though. They wanted to pile more evil on Cyric, and 'Prince of Lies' is a cool title, but it's not cool for him to call himself that when there's a deity of deception and illusion already. So what's another dead god on the pile, especially one as relatively obscure as Leira? They'd just killed the three main evil gods in their setting, after all.
Actually, come to think of it, were any of the gods slaughtered during Cyric's rise permanenet? Bane came back, Myrkul still exists in some form, Bhaal has the Bhaalspawn working towards his return, and Leira might not be dead... Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he?
He never did, actually. Even Mystra survived. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Actually, come to think of it, were any of the gods slaughtered during Cyric's rise permanenet? Bane came back, Myrkul still exists in some form, Bhaal has the Bhaalspawn working towards his return, and Leira might not be dead... Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he?
Ao said Leira is dead. That's pretty definitive, to me.
Myrkul still exists, but isn't a deity, and isn't interested in being a deity.
And there is evidence that reborn Bane is not the same as original Bane. I personally suspect that Bane remains dead, and Xvim is masquerading as Bane, and there are some scattered bits of lore to support that. But it's also possible that Bane 2.0 is some sort of gestalt between Bane 1.0 and Xvim. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 05:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Actually, come to think of it, were any of the gods slaughtered during Cyric's rise permanenet? Bane came back, Myrkul still exists in some form, Bhaal has the Bhaalspawn working towards his return, and Leira might not be dead... Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he?
Ao said Leira is dead. That's pretty definitive, to me.
It should be noted, however, that Brian James has a long held belief that Leira might still be out there somewhere.
...
For my own Realms, I've speculated previously -- based on collective musings with Krash and Sage Schend -- that Leira is still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim:- to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 13:35:16
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| Even a dead hero can be raised from the dead...and that speaks nothing of the plots and contingencies of gods... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 13:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Actually, come to think of it, were any of the gods slaughtered during Cyric's rise permanenet? Bane came back, Myrkul still exists in some form, Bhaal has the Bhaalspawn working towards his return, and Leira might not be dead... Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he?
Ao said Leira is dead. That's pretty definitive, to me.
Myrkul still exists, but isn't a deity, and isn't interested in being a deity.
And there is evidence that reborn Bane is not the same as original Bane. I personally suspect that Bane remains dead, and Xvim is masquerading as Bane, and there are some scattered bits of lore to support that. But it's also possible that Bane 2.0 is some sort of gestalt between Bane 1.0 and Xvim.
On the Ao saying Leira is dead thing.... Ao is all about gods furthering their portfolios. If that means lying for the goddess of lies, I can see him doing it, especially if HE (i.e. Ao) has some secret agenda that he worked out with Leira. He's above such things as true and false, good and evil, light and dark.... and he doesn't need to answer to the gods. Honestly, there is very little that I think anyone could say to me that I would accept as definitive "proof" of her death.... I guess some might call it faith.
As to the statement said by Umbra "Leira, n'maerlyn myl mar'kov" and the other statement said that Myrin has a goddess within her... I'm pretty certain the answer will be that her spellscar is a portion of Mystra and that's just a phrasing used by many to describe the spellscarred, and that Umbra was maybe using Leira as a swear? However, the curse placed on him that caused his face to continually change would be a wonderful "Leiran" curse. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Actually, come to think of it, were any of the gods slaughtered during Cyric's rise permanenet? Bane came back, Myrkul still exists in some form, Bhaal has the Bhaalspawn working towards his return, and Leira might not be dead... Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he?
Ao said Leira is dead. That's pretty definitive, to me.
It should be noted, however, that Brian James has a long held belief that Leira might still be out there somewhere.
...
For my own Realms, I've speculated previously -- based on collective musings with Krash and Sage Schend -- that Leira is still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim:- to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now.
That would be wonderful, as THAT is exactly where I'd like to see things go as well. Mask and Leira make a wonderful "pair" in heaven, and it could make for some interesting stories as well with earthly priests of Mask and Leira interacting. Hmmm, I forget where things left off with Erevis Cale.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Actually, come to think of it, were any of the gods slaughtered during Cyric's rise permanenet? Bane came back, Myrkul still exists in some form, Bhaal has the Bhaalspawn working towards his return, and Leira might not be dead... Poor Cyric just can't do anything right, can he?
Ao said Leira is dead. That's pretty definitive, to me.
Myrkul still exists, but isn't a deity, and isn't interested in being a deity.
And there is evidence that reborn Bane is not the same as original Bane. I personally suspect that Bane remains dead, and Xvim is masquerading as Bane, and there are some scattered bits of lore to support that. But it's also possible that Bane 2.0 is some sort of gestalt between Bane 1.0 and Xvim.
On the Ao saying Leira is dead thing.... Ao is all about gods furthering their portfolios. If that means lying for the goddess of lies, I can see him doing it, especially if HE (i.e. Ao) has some secret agenda that he worked out with Leira. He's above such things as true and false, good and evil, light and dark.... and he doesn't need to answer to the gods. Honestly, there is very little that I think anyone could say to me that I would accept as definitive "proof" of her death.... I guess some might call it faith.
What possible secret agenda would Ao have that would necessitate lying? Why does someone who can strip all deities of their power, in an instant, need to have a secret agenda, or need to work with one of his subordinates?
I have no issue with the possibility of Leira coming back from the dead -- I just fail to see where there is any reason to assume she's not dead. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have no issue with the possibility of Leira coming back from the dead -- I just fail to see where there is any reason to assume she's not dead.
The possibilities are boundless. Leira could have pleaded Ao to say she's dead, for her own secret agenda. Ao did not see said agenda as a potential threat to the Balance, so he 'allowed' it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 17:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have no issue with the possibility of Leira coming back from the dead -- I just fail to see where there is any reason to assume she's not dead.
The possibilities are boundless. Leira could have pleaded Ao to say she's dead, for her own secret agenda. Ao did not see said agenda as a potential threat to the Balance, so he 'allowed' it.
I still fail to see why Ao would go along with that.
I also fail to see what possible agenda she could have that would include faking her own death at the hands of the god of murder and giving up the portfolios that are the only source of power for her -- unless her secret agenda was to not be a deity.
If I'm going to assume a possibility, I need there to be room for that possibility. Cyric and Mask know they killed her. Leira has disappeared and is no longer answering prayers or granting spells. Cyric took her portfolios and is taking care of her followers. Ao confirmed she was dead. I don't see that there is any room for any possibilities that she's still around. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 17:53:54
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She's having an indefinite leave, enjoying her time at the Maldives. Being a deity can be tiresome at times. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 19:06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have no issue with the possibility of Leira coming back from the dead -- I just fail to see where there is any reason to assume she's not dead.
The possibilities are boundless. Leira could have pleaded Ao to say she's dead, for her own secret agenda. Ao did not see said agenda as a potential threat to the Balance, so he 'allowed' it.
I still fail to see why Ao would go along with that.
I also fail to see what possible agenda she could have that would include faking her own death at the hands of the god of murder and giving up the portfolios that are the only source of power for her -- unless her secret agenda was to not be a deity.
If I'm going to assume a possibility, I need there to be room for that possibility. Cyric and Mask know they killed her. Leira has disappeared and is no longer answering prayers or granting spells. Cyric took her portfolios and is taking care of her followers. Ao confirmed she was dead. I don't see that there is any room for any possibilities that she's still around.
There could be numerous possibilities. One that occurs to me is that maybe she was out to get shadow magic from Shar... meanwhile Mask wanted to get shadow and darkness from Shar. So, they work together to get this upstart Cyric into believing that he's the new lord of lies/illusions. He doesn't really know what its like to "be" the god of lies/illusions, so they figure out some means that she actually keeps the portfolio but funnels some power in his direction. Being the "lord of illusions" actually makes Cyric think about being the lord of all magic and makes him target Mystra as his "next conquest"... which is also a goal of Shar's.
Exactly how all this plays out can go in many directions, but basically maybe Ao is intrigued by this little power play by Leira and decides he'd be entertained watching it play out... and besides he feels like it might work well to limit both Shar's and Mystra's power without him having to be "the heavy". So, when the other gods get all demandy to know what happened to Leira... he decides, hell, let her play her game, I'm having fun watching. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 20:04:51
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Except that what we know about the late Leira indicates she's not interested in more power. And how does one fake one's murder at the hands of the deity of murder?
And why would Ao be concerned about limiting Shar's and Mystra's power? He can do that himself, and he's proven he doesn't care how the deities perceive him. And they are fulfilling the roles he assigned to them -- he cares more about that than their power levels. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 20:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Except that what we know about the late Leira indicates she's not interested in more power. And how does one fake one's murder at the hands of the deity of murder?
And why would Ao be concerned about limiting Shar's and Mystra's power? He can do that himself, and he's proven he doesn't care how the deities perceive him. And they are fulfilling the roles he assigned to them -- he cares more about that than their power levels.
Why does a father let his older son correct his younger son on some things? Because he doesn't want to deal with it... and also it amuses him... and maybe because he's interested to see what the outcome is...
How does one fake one's death at the hands of the lord of murder? Why through illusion, trickery, and lies of course. Another viewpoint is that Bhaal & Cyric were lords of murder as it pertains to mortals.... not immortals. After all, just how much do we know about a god's depths of their power? Cyric couldn't kill every god just because he was lord of murder. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 22:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Except that what we know about the late Leira indicates she's not interested in more power. And how does one fake one's murder at the hands of the deity of murder?
And why would Ao be concerned about limiting Shar's and Mystra's power? He can do that himself, and he's proven he doesn't care how the deities perceive him. And they are fulfilling the roles he assigned to them -- he cares more about that than their power levels.
Why does a father let his older son correct his younger son on some things? Because he doesn't want to deal with it... and also it amuses him... and maybe because he's interested to see what the outcome is...
And yet, he was still ready enough to slap down everyone, and blind a deity, during the Time of Troubles.
It does not compute that he'd take such overt action one day, and the next day (in deific terms) take some roundabout and drawn-out process to do something he could do in a heartbeat.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
How does one fake one's death at the hands of the lord of murder? Why through illusion, trickery, and lies of course. Another viewpoint is that Bhaal & Cyric were lords of murder as it pertains to mortals.... not immortals. After all, just how much do we know about a god's depths of their power? Cyric couldn't kill every god just because he was lord of murder.
No, but he should know whether or not he murdered someone. That's my point. A greater power, personally doing something in his portfolio, is not going to be fooled by a lesser power of deceit. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 00:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, but he should know whether or not he murdered someone. That's my point. A greater power, personally doing something in his portfolio, is not going to be fooled by a lesser power of deceit.
Didn't Mask fool him? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:28:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If that means lying for the goddess of lies, I can see him doing it, especially if HE (i.e. Ao) has some secret agenda that he worked out with Leira. He's above such things as true and false, good and evil, light and dark.... and he doesn't need to answer to the gods.
I don't quite see how that would work. On one point, you're suggesting that Ao would work out some secret agenda with Leira, while also suggesting that he's above the very concept of true and false. Keeping secrets with one god while playing them against the others, would constitute being false, I think.
Besides, I don't think Ao would involve himself directly in such subversive divine meddling. It would ultimately only lead to the kinds of petty squabbles between the gods that we've already and that Ao himself had to bring an end to. I can't see why he'd promote those kinds of problems again. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have no issue with the possibility of Leira coming back from the dead -- I just fail to see where there is any reason to assume she's not dead.
The possibilities are boundless. Leira could have pleaded Ao to say she's dead, for her own secret agenda. Ao did not see said agenda as a potential threat to the Balance, so he 'allowed' it.
But why would Ao do for Leira what he's basically not done for other deities that have died? Ao has left other gods to die and potentially left the Balance open to instability, until he either condoned the raising of new gods to assume the places of those fallen, or redistribute the suddenly free portfolios among existing powers. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 05:07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, but he should know whether or not he murdered someone. That's my point. A greater power, personally doing something in his portfolio, is not going to be fooled by a lesser power of deceit.
Didn't Mask fool him?
Mask fooled Cyric, yes -- but he was pretending to be a weapon, a tool. He wasn't pretending to be a murder victim, slain by the god of murder. He did not fool Cyric in regards to Cyric's own portfolio. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 14:37:22
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| He pretended to murder Kelemvor Lionsbane, but he preserved him after a fashion. He also hid his soul from the god of the dead, and that definitely strikes at Cyric's portfolio as the judge of the dead. And wasn't Kelemvor faithless? I think that Cyric was definitely capable of being fooled. Ao, on the other hand I can't explain. If he says she's dead, she's at least as dead as Bane, Myrkul or Bhaal was. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 17:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
He pretended to murder Kelemvor Lionsbane, but he preserved him after a fashion. He also hid his soul from the god of the dead, and that definitely strikes at Cyric's portfolio as the judge of the dead. And wasn't Kelemvor faithless? I think that Cyric was definitely capable of being fooled. Ao, on the other hand I can't explain. If he says she's dead, she's at least as dead as Bane, Myrkul or Bhaal was.
Ah, but the murder of Kelemvor happened at the hands of the mortal Cyric. He was not the Lord of Murder, executing his portfolio, at that time. So that murder was not his purview. Kelemvor's soul never entered his realm, and even if it had, it still happened before Cyric was Lord of the Dead.
It's not at all uncommon for souls to not make it to Myrkul/Kelemvor/Cyric's halls -- look at liches and many other forms of undead.
So Cyric's murder of Kelemvor, and his failure to find a soul that wasn't in his realm, are unrelated to the discussion at hand. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 17:43:50
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| It doesn't strike me as different. Murder and the dead are both equally important parts of Cyrics portfolio. In fact, one might argue that more of his attention was spent as the lord of the dead. Just because Kelemvor never reached his realm didn't mean that he was any less dead and thus any less under the domain of Cyric. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 18:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
It doesn't strike me as different. Murder and the dead are both equally important parts of Cyrics portfolio. In fact, one might argue that more of his attention was spent as the lord of the dead. Just because Kelemvor never reached his realm didn't mean that he was any less dead and thus any less under the domain of Cyric.
But Cyric did not have the portfolio of murder when he killed Kelemvor -- Cyric was just a mortal, killing another mortal. The Lord of Murder was not murdering anyone, at that point, because Cyric was not a deity and did not hold that portfolio.
And the Lord of the Dead does not have any purview over any souls that aren't in his domain -- if a soul remains in the mortal world, or if it's been claimed by another deity, then the Lord of the Dead can't touch it. Otherwise, he'd have control over all souls, and would pretty much be able to strip power from other deities by either taking back the souls of their followers or refusing to release them in the first place. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 19:06:43
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| ...You know, Cyric was supposed to have inherited Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul's portfolios. Myrkul had the largest portfolio in terms of diversity at least; so what happened to the bulk of it? Who currently has dominion over dusk, parasites, old age, wasting, decay, corruption and exhaustion? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 19:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
...You know, Cyric was supposed to have inherited Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul's portfolios. Myrkul had the largest portfolio in terms of diversity at least; so what happened to the bulk of it? Who currently has dominion over dusk, parasites, old age, wasting, decay, corruption and exhaustion?
That is actually a really good question.
Not one I worry about though because Myrkul is alive and well in my own Realms.
However, there are certain demons that could take on these aspects of Myrkul's portfolio...or they could simply be unclaimed aspects. Most likely, as the Realms has far more gods than is even published; these would have went to minor regional godlings. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 22:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
It doesn't strike me as different. Murder and the dead are both equally important parts of Cyrics portfolio. In fact, one might argue that more of his attention was spent as the lord of the dead. Just because Kelemvor never reached his realm didn't mean that he was any less dead and thus any less under the domain of Cyric.
But Cyric did not have the portfolio of murder when he killed Kelemvor -- Cyric was just a mortal, killing another mortal. The Lord of Murder was not murdering anyone, at that point, because Cyric was not a deity and did not hold that portfolio.
And the Lord of the Dead does not have any purview over any souls that aren't in his domain -- if a soul remains in the mortal world, or if it's been claimed by another deity, then the Lord of the Dead can't touch it. Otherwise, he'd have control over all souls, and would pretty much be able to strip power from other deities by either taking back the souls of their followers or refusing to release them in the first place.
I meant between killing Leira and Kelemvor being dead. Is the lord of the dead not responsible for the operation of the system of the afterlife? Clearly Mask had no basis to claim Kelemvor's soul. Just as clearly the Lord of the Dead does have some leeway as Kelemvor's first act was to release the souls that were wrongly being held in his city. His soul is rightfully Cyric's, but Cyric was deceived by the god of intrigue. This leads me to believe that it would be possible for the goddess of deception and lies to deceive his as well. |
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Leira, n'maerlyn myl mar'kov
