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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 22:53:27
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Originally posted by Neil
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by Neil
It doesn't strike me as different. Murder and the dead are both equally important parts of Cyrics portfolio. In fact, one might argue that more of his attention was spent as the lord of the dead. Just because Kelemvor never reached his realm didn't mean that he was any less dead and thus any less under the domain of Cyric.
But Cyric did not have the portfolio of murder when he killed Kelemvor -- Cyric was just a mortal, killing another mortal. The Lord of Murder was not murdering anyone, at that point, because Cyric was not a deity and did not hold that portfolio.
And the Lord of the Dead does not have any purview over any souls that aren't in his domain -- if a soul remains in the mortal world, or if it's been claimed by another deity, then the Lord of the Dead can't touch it. Otherwise, he'd have control over all souls, and would pretty much be able to strip power from other deities by either taking back the souls of their followers or refusing to release them in the first place.
I meant between killing Leira and Kelemvor being dead. Is the lord of the dead not responsible for the operation of the system of the afterlife? Clearly Mask had no basis to claim Kelemvor's soul. Just as clearly the Lord of the Dead does have some leeway as Kelemvor's first act was to release the souls that were wrongly being held in his city. His soul is rightfully Cyric's, but Cyric was deceived by the god of intrigue. This leads me to believe that it would be possible for the goddess of deception and lies to deceive his as well.
But when Cyric slew Leira he was the acting lord of murder acting within his portfolio. With Kelemvor's dead it was something that happened before Cyric became the acting lord of the respective portfolio.
And Kelemvor's soul wouldn't be rightfully Cyric's, it would be rightfully Torm's and Mask stole it from Torm. And Cyric knew that Kelemvor was dead, he just didn't know where his soul was, and this was actually none of his business (but a matter between Mask and Torm) |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 23:58:34
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| Why Torm? Besides, Kelemvor was still dead, and the dead are Cyric's. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 00:20:10
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quote:
Dennis
Remember that WotC is serious in bringing back a plethora of lost gods. Leira is one of them, I suppose. Although, I never thought her dead. If there's anyone in all the known pantheons who can "fake" her death, it's the deity of illusion.
Strictly speaking, there is no reason to assume this goddess was still alive during the Time of Troubles; her apparent (continued) existence might have been a masterful deception; she might have died long, long ago and maintained only an illusory presence.
If so, then Ao's declaration of Leira's death might only confirm a fact which had already been true for centuries or millennia. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:05:12
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Originally posted by The Sage
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Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have no issue with the possibility of Leira coming back from the dead -- I just fail to see where there is any reason to assume she's not dead.
The possibilities are boundless. Leira could have pleaded Ao to say she's dead, for her own secret agenda. Ao did not see said agenda as a potential threat to the Balance, so he 'allowed' it.
But why would Ao do for Leira what he's basically not done for other deities that have died? Ao has left other gods to die and potentially left the Balance open to instability, until he either condoned the raising of new gods to assume the places of those fallen, or redistribute the suddenly free portfolios among existing powers.
One of us I think isn't understanding the other (and it may be me and how I'm reading what you wrote). My presumption is that Leira didn't die. She just began a plot to fake her own death, possibly at Ao's prompting... possibly not. My personal favorite viewpoint here would be that Leira and Mask were working together (after all, the lie of her death would be a masterful intrigue). I'll present some possibilities below.
If it was at Ao's prompting, he gave her a mission to do for whatever reason and he needed her to not be involved for a short while as a god. For instance, maybe he needed someone to enter Sigil and he needed for it to be the most sneaky person he could find. Maybe he needed some base power source hidden away there... or whatever... it was in a place that he himself could not go and he wasn't going to work through mortals. This required Leira to give up her godliness temporarily, so Ao helped her to help himself. When the other gods were told something about Leira's death, it was only to shut them up. He could care less whether they know the truth or not, he just wants what he needs Leira to acquire.
If it wasn't at Ao's prompting, she for some reason needed to do some work "behind the scenes" to setup some major dominos. In order to do that, she needed a frontman to "do the daily work". Naturally, she approached the boss "Ao" and laid out her plot and showed how it followed along with her ethos. He respected the fact that she was doing her job, appreciated the initiative, and more importantly appreciated the fact that she was getting his approval first (unlike all those other gods who don't give proper respect to the chain of command). Remember, Ao wasn't upset about Gods working against one another (that he expects to happen).... he was mad that someone messed with his tablets. So, when the other gods got all demandy to know what happened to Leira, he was fed up with their demanding nature and decided to play along and well.... lie to them and let her continue her subterfuge. It didn't hurt him any, and if it put some of the less respectful ones in their place without him having to lift a finger... more's the better.
That make more sense? The exact plot can be filled in with details, but since we were focusing on the Ao saying she was dead piece, I wanted to focus on that and not the details of her plot (which there could be many.... ) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:11:17
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| It is canonical that Leira IS dead, not maybe. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:43:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by sleyvas
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Except that what we know about the late Leira indicates she's not interested in more power. And how does one fake one's murder at the hands of the deity of murder?
And why would Ao be concerned about limiting Shar's and Mystra's power? He can do that himself, and he's proven he doesn't care how the deities perceive him. And they are fulfilling the roles he assigned to them -- he cares more about that than their power levels.
Why does a father let his older son correct his younger son on some things? Because he doesn't want to deal with it... and also it amuses him... and maybe because he's interested to see what the outcome is...
And yet, he was still ready enough to slap down everyone, and blind a deity, during the Time of Troubles.
It does not compute that he'd take such overt action one day, and the next day (in deific terms) take some roundabout and drawn-out process to do something he could do in a heartbeat.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
How does one fake one's death at the hands of the lord of murder? Why through illusion, trickery, and lies of course. Another viewpoint is that Bhaal & Cyric were lords of murder as it pertains to mortals.... not immortals. After all, just how much do we know about a god's depths of their power? Cyric couldn't kill every god just because he was lord of murder.
No, but he should know whether or not he murdered someone. That's my point. A greater power, personally doing something in his portfolio, is not going to be fooled by a lesser power of deceit.
Why did Cyric end up with Bane's and Myrkul's powers? He didn't kill them (Torm killed Bane and midnight disintegrated Myrkul). Could it be that when the theft of the tablets of fate happened, Ao was approached by Mask and Leira with a plot to humble all three? Could it even be that they knew of the movements of the three before they stole the tablets and had informed Ao? Could it be that they devised a long-reaching plan with Ao that followed their portfolios and part of it involved Cyric becoming a god with all 3 of their portfolios?
Why is Ao working through the gods like this? Ao can't just do everything with a wave of his hand as is popularly viewed. There are limits to his power. I quote from Waterdeep (avatar trilogy) to show that he states that he has certain limits.
"I have lost many gods during this crisis," Ao said, "As punishment for their theft, I will leave Bane and Myrkul dispersed. But Mystra, lady of mysteries and grantor of magic is also gone. Even I cannot restore her. Will you take her place?"
Also, Ao will not reprimand gods for following their natures.... for instance, he told the other gods that the lord of murder killing Leira wouldn't be a problem as it would be his job to ferret out the weak amongst them. So, he's not against internal godly strife. He's just against gods being overly mean to mortals and not respecting him. Thus why he made the gods power change to be based on worship.
Finally, on the whole greater power of murder not knowing who he's murdered. If 2 lesser powers are working together to decieve him, and one of those is a god of plotting and the other is a goddess of deception.... I'm thinking things aren't always absolutes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:53:18
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Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It is canonical that Leira IS dead, not maybe.
Yes, just like many... many... many things have been changed since the setting was released. The difference is not in whether things are changed... its how well they're changed and does it make for a good story. Personally, Leira being back takes some power out of Cyric's and possibly even Shar's hands, and that's a good thing in my viewpoint. Hell, Leira, Beshaba, and Mask working together make for a decent little team... possibly even with some links to the fey (I've always felt Beshaba with those antlers has to have a little fey in her).
Hmmmm, wasn't there also some story of a deceptive little crystal that affected the Queen of Air and Darkness/Auril? I wonder if Leira and Mask were involved in any way there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 07:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Why Torm? Besides, Kelemvor was still dead, and the dead are Cyric's.
Because Kelemvor worshipped Torm. As a faithful the Lord of the Dead has no claim over him
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Finally, on the whole greater power of murder not knowing who he's murdered. If 2 lesser powers are working together to decieve him, and one of those is a god of plotting and the other is a goddess of deception.... I'm thinking things aren't always absolutes.
I say a lesser power working her portfolio can deceive a greater not working her portfolio. But as soon as all powers are working their portfolios, the stronger power prevails.
Thus if Leira tried to deceive Cyric about a matter of war, it would have worked, but not if she tried to deceive Tempus about a matter of war.
Lastly, as far as crazy theories go, here's my personal one:
Bane is dead. Bane never returned. Xvim lasted as long as he did because Cyric was not yet ready for his greatest ploy: Not just slaying Xvim, but working all his portfolios in concert to convince everyone that Bane has returned. It's all Cyric in disguise. He killed Xvim, he took back his power and no one begrudges Cyric this time because everybody thinks that Bane is back and Cyric is weakened, but he's not. It's all him. Church of Bane, Church of Cyric, the One and All sits at the head of both of them and reaps all worship and power for himself |
Edited by - Mirtek on 02 Jan 2013 07:57:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 07:58:48
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quote:
sleyvas
(I've always felt Beshaba with those antlers has to have a little fey in her).
Beshaba and Tymora are the opposite "halves" of Tyche. I'm guessing that - at least ignoring post-2E Realms canon - this was basically Tyche of the Greek Mythos (as presented in AD&D(1E) Dieties & Demigods). Just one of many deities from foreign pantheons (Mielikki, Ohgma, Tyr, Silvanus, etc).
Although the Realms is thoroughly infested with fey creatures, so it doesn't seem impossible for a "new" goddess to somehow absorb their essence or influence. I personally think the horns are just a symbolic affectation, meant to suggest fiendish association or to evoke threatening imagery of danger and bad luck to observers. I can't speak for Ed, of course, so Beshaba's horns might mean anything, maybe he stuck them on her head just to look cool, maybe they were arbitrarily put there by some artist.
Realms deities can assume pretty much any form they choose, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Jan 2013 08:01:39 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 08:21:11
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quote:
Bane is dead. Bane never returned. Xvim lasted as long as he did because Cyric was not yet ready for his greatest ploy: Not just slaying Xvim, but working all his portfolios in concert to convince everyone that Bane has returned. It's all Cyric in disguise. He killed Xvim, he took back his power and no one begrudges Cyric this time because everybody thinks that Bane is back and Cyric is weakened, but he's not. It's all him. Church of Bane, Church of Cyric, the One and All sits at the head of both of them and reaps all worship and power for himself
I've been going through Faiths and Avatars, and this just sort of leapt out at me. How exactly has Cyric retained the status of greater power?
He actively sows discord among his own priesthood, encouraging them to murder each other in an orgy of blood. He wants to create his own knightly order, and ends up giving two high priests contradicting orders which go nowhere. Given his church is hamstrung by their nutty deity, how exactly have they remained so prominent?
Bane was a god of strife, but he was also a lawful deity. His church never really had this issue. Almost all other evil faiths can generally work together, but Cyric's the only one who mismanages his own church to the point he's lucky they haven't all killed each other.
EDIT: On the subject of dead gods, I'm hoping to see Velsharoon return. He and Savras are the more interesting deities among the powers of magic, because they both have reasons not to like the establishment and have a lot of fertile background for world-building.
I can't really see Savras being very happy about being stuck in a glorified walking stick for the better part of a millenium, much less Azuth's audacity in intending to use said stick as a staff of office.
EDIT: As for Beshaba, I don't think she has antlers. I can't recall either her avatar or her novel appearance possessing antlers. They seem to be limited to her divine symbol. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 02 Jan 2013 08:28:29 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 08:26:39
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The line which divides insanity from genius is measured only by success.
Everybody agrees that Cyric is absolutely insane, loopy bonkers, he is in fact the God of Madness.
Perhaps Cyric is also (in some utterly bizarre manner I can't see behind his inconsistent and incompetent buffoonery) a brilliant thinker without parallel when it comes to intrigues and manipulations and deceptions and treacheries? He has risked much playing gambits before, destroying his own sources of power, and it's even possible he would have succeeded were he not (barely) outmanipulated by the shadowy God of Intrigue ... it's not impossible that Cyric's numerous failed little schemings are simply part of a masterfully grand Machiavellian ambition sufficient to maintain his position as a Greater Power.
Imagining Cyric as more sort of a mix of megalomaniacal evil-overlord with, say, (Captain) Jack Sparrow's astounding powers of opportunistic improvisation ... the kind of guy who even fools himself (imagine his own avatars working against each other!) ... well, that would almost manage to actually make Cyric really cool. But I still have a hard time overcoming my first impression of him as an utterly "useless" character when seeing his stats, or my other first impression of him as a simpering whimpering sycophantic half-idiotic gutless loser when reading the original Avatar trilogy. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Jan 2013 08:39:17 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 10:38:48
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This is the same chap whose "Castle of the Supreme Throne" is really called the Shattered Keep, right? Personally, I think he's bonkers.
In fact, I could see the dichotomy between him and Bhaal. During Bhaal's reign, assassination was both an art and a business. His lawful alignment meant that his assassins operated by a set of rules concerning hiring procedures, payment, miscellaneous objectives and so on. They'd be something like the Dark Brotherhood from the Elder Scrolls.
In Cyric's reign, the gist of it is that any murderous psycho off the streets going on a murdering spree while cackling to himself could be called an assassin. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 10:55:36
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It seems strange to me that Talos challenged Bhaal and Bane over possession of the "violent death" portfolio, yet he has never dared to be anything more than a good buddy to Cyric.
Cyric needs to actually achieve some kind of a real victory to be cool. Not a partial victory, not a Pyrrhic victory, not a blurry victory. He needs to state an objective and achieve it, he needs to crush a pile of skulls under his boots while once-mighty fallen foes submissively cower beneath his lash, there needs to be no question of his dominance. Until he can achieve that (the way Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul did) he will be mocked instead of feared.
I do agree that on the surface it seems utterly impossible for Cyric to maintain his position as a Greater God ... that's why I suggest that, since he has successfully maintained his position, there must be something we aren't seeing under the surface. |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Jan 2013 10:58:35 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 12:10:35
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Cyric is a Greater Diety because of the power of his divine message. His creed of subtle mayhem can lead to quick self enrichment for those that follow it.
This is why his followers consist largely of young people that yearn for power in a hurry. Nobel upstarts, new gangsters and ambitious disgruntled apprentices are all perfect subjects for proselytizing cyrisist clergymen, as they are easily tempted with false rewards.
I imagine his dreamvisions to be of a particularly powerful kind, as the Prince of Lies would have impeccable persuasive ability at his disposal when devising them. Cyric might have mastered 'advertising' through his dream visions because of his insight in designing perfect lies. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 12:11:52
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| That is sort of strange, considering he was doing his best to subvert Mystra's dominion over wild magic under the alias of Malyk. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 12:15:43
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| Divine informercials. I shudder at the very notion ... perhaps he actually tortures people of waivering faith into his flock through an endless stream of late-night advertisements, promising nothing more than to cease tormenting (as much) once they submit to his bidding? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Jan 2013 12:16:48 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 12:47:09
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| I was more thinking in terms of quality of the dreamvision commercials, than quantity. Some might be cursed by a dream period where his vision cloud their mind even through their waking hours, though. Would make a good high-priest zealot kind of character. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 13:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Why Torm? Besides, Kelemvor was still dead, and the dead are Cyric's.
Because Kelemvor worshipped Torm. As a faithful the Lord of the Dead has no claim over him
Did he? I don't recall that ever being mentioned although I haven't reread Avatar in years. He doesn't have a patron deity listed in Hall of Heroes. Even if that were the case, the Lord of the Dead clearly has the ability to take the faithful of other gods in certain cases. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 14:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
sleyvas
(I've always felt Beshaba with those antlers has to have a little fey in her).
Beshaba and Tymora are the opposite "halves" of Tyche. I'm guessing that - at least ignoring post-2E Realms canon - this was basically Tyche of the Greek Mythos (as presented in AD&D(1E) Dieties & Demigods). Just one of many deities from foreign pantheons (Mielikki, Ohgma, Tyr, Silvanus, etc).
Although the Realms is thoroughly infested with fey creatures, so it doesn't seem impossible for a "new" goddess to somehow absorb their essence or influence. I personally think the horns are just a symbolic affectation, meant to suggest fiendish association or to evoke threatening imagery of danger and bad luck to observers. I can't speak for Ed, of course, so Beshaba's horns might mean anything, maybe he stuck them on her head just to look cool, maybe they were arbitrarily put there by some artist.
Realms deities can assume pretty much any form they choose, of course.
Yes, Tyche was "greek". She was "corrupted" into two halves. What I'm hearing here is that one godly soul became two. I'm not saying that's not possible. I'm saying that maybe the story that mortals know isn't "exactly" how it happened. Maybe Moander corrupted this Greek goddess in something akin to a very naturey/feywild/faerie way. I mean, didn't a plant grow into her basically? So, Moander planted a "seed" within her and that seed became the second soul. Could it have been an overflow of corruptive fey energy that fed from Tyche and spun off Beshaba, and what was left behind became Tymora?
Now, on this, I'm nowhere near as set as I am that Leira's still alive. I just feel like a deity of "bad luck" with antlers just seems to me a very dark fey type of being (somewhat tricksterish if you will). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 14:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Bane is dead. Bane never returned. Xvim lasted as long as he did because Cyric was not yet ready for his greatest ploy: Not just slaying Xvim, but working all his portfolios in concert to convince everyone that Bane has returned. It's all Cyric in disguise. He killed Xvim, he took back his power and no one begrudges Cyric this time because everybody thinks that Bane is back and Cyric is weakened, but he's not. It's all him. Church of Bane, Church of Cyric, the One and All sits at the head of both of them and reaps all worship and power for himself
I've been going through Faiths and Avatars, and this just sort of leapt out at me. How exactly has Cyric retained the status of greater power?
He actively sows discord among his own priesthood, encouraging them to murder each other in an orgy of blood. He wants to create his own knightly order, and ends up giving two high priests contradicting orders which go nowhere. Given his church is hamstrung by their nutty deity, how exactly have they remained so prominent?
Bane was a god of strife, but he was also a lawful deity. His church never really had this issue. Almost all other evil faiths can generally work together, but Cyric's the only one who mismanages his own church to the point he's lucky they haven't all killed each other.
EDIT: On the subject of dead gods, I'm hoping to see Velsharoon return. He and Savras are the more interesting deities among the powers of magic, because they both have reasons not to like the establishment and have a lot of fertile background for world-building.
I can't really see Savras being very happy about being stuck in a glorified walking stick for the better part of a millenium, much less Azuth's audacity in intending to use said stick as a staff of office.
EDIT: As for Beshaba, I don't think she has antlers. I can't recall either her avatar or her novel appearance possessing antlers. They seem to be limited to her divine symbol.
That's a good point. Ao himself stated that the reason he was raising new gods was he was sick of the gods using mortals like playthings. That Cyric was raised up and specifically did this makes me even more wonder why Ao puts up with him.
On Velsharoon and Savras... yes, I'd like to see them return even if Azuth doesn't. I know its canon that the Simbul destroyed Velsharoon, but as far as I know, nothing specific was ever given about what happened exactly. It could be that he's been trapped within his phylactery all this time, needing an immortal body to possess. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 15:00:00
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| On the Cyric maintaining power, the only thing I can figure is that so many people like to swear by his name (i.e. may you get Cyric's bloody flux and shit yourself to death, etc...). Although not high in "reverence" value, maybe he's lasting on small returns. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 15:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That's a good point. Ao himself stated that the reason he was raising new gods was he was sick of the gods using mortals like playthings. That Cyric was raised up and specifically did this makes me even more wonder why Ao puts up with him.
On Velsharoon and Savras... yes, I'd like to see them return even if Azuth doesn't. I know its canon that the Simbul destroyed Velsharoon, but as far as I know, nothing specific was ever given about what happened exactly. It could be that he's been trapped within his phylactery all this time, needing an immortal body to possess.
My personal headcanon is that liches are the phylacteries of the god of liches. When Mystra died, the combination of the silverfire released upon her death and the silverfire used on him by the Simbul when his corporeal body fell to the Realms was enough to obliterate his physical form, but his spirit and divine essence fled and possessed a wizard on the cusp of lichdom.
Velsharoon still grants spells to his followers, but they've received instructions to keep quiet about his survival. He's got plans brewing.
That's my 4e headcanon at least. 3.5e, he's still around; undead and kicking in Death's Embrace. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 17:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It is canonical that Leira IS dead, not maybe.
Some deities have contingencies in place to allow them to return. These plans require items or beings to be empowered with a dead deities essence. For example, The Hand of Bane, Bhaalspawn, Chosen, or ancient tomes which can inspire a person to establish a cult in a deceased god’s name.
So, what proof is there that she is still dead after the Spellplague? Here is another question, which deity maintained the illusion over the Moon making it appear barren and lifeless after her death? Was it Cyric or another god or an extremely powerful artifact?
When Mystra died the illusion over Abeir-Toril’s moon, Selûne, temporarily failed then sometime after the chaos it was restored. The only proof I can offer on it being restored is none of the current products, novels, articles, mention the surface being green and fluffy.
My current theory:
A powerful well hidden Lerian artifact maintained the illusion. The spellplague caused the ancient relic to hatch a goddess of illusion. She then stripped away her rightful portfolio from an imprisoned crazy god.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 18:17:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
So, what proof is there that she is still dead after the Spellplague? Here is another question, which deity maintained the illusion over the Moon making it appear barren and lifeless after her death? Was it Cyric or another god or an extremely powerful artifact?
When Mystra died the illusion over Abeir-Toril’s moon, Selûne, temporarily failed then sometime after the chaos it was restored. The only proof I can offer on it being restored is none of the current products, novels, articles, mention the surface being green and fluffy.
Pretty sure the moon simply isn't mentioned, which makes this proof hardly conclusive. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 18:32:34
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
He actively sows discord among his own priesthood, encouraging them to murder each other in an orgy of blood. He wants to create his own knightly order, and ends up giving two high priests contradicting orders which go nowhere. Given his church is hamstrung by their nutty deity, how exactly have they remained so prominent?
Bane was a god of strife, but he was also a lawful deity. His church never really had this issue. Almost all other evil faiths can generally work together, but Cyric's the only one who mismanages his own church to the point he's lucky they haven't all killed each other.
Well, that's one of the downsides of being a deity. You are to a degree determined by your portfolios and not as free willed as a mortal.
Cyric is lord of strife, so he must have strive within his church, he can't just have a united church.
Bane once suffered from this as well, that's why you had the whole church of Bane based in Zhentil Keep vs. the orthodox church of Bane based in Mulmaster issue. And the two branches hated each others guts and fought and killed each other as well.
Only by shedding the portfolio of strife was Bane able to unite his church (or would have been if he wasn't dead and Cyric fooling everyone with his Bane has returned lie )
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik and it's even possible he would have succeeded were he not (barely) outmanipulated by the shadowy God of Intrigue ...
It wasn't just the god of intrigue outmanipulating him, but an alliance of two greater (Oghma and Mystra) and two lesser (Mask & Torm) powers aligned against him.
The lord of intrigue on his own failed so miserably that he reduced himself from intermediate to lesser power before anything started to went wrong with his intrigue. It all still went as planed, just the plan was so horribly bad that it cost him a divine strata
And then he willingly read the Cyrinishad (or rather willingly shielded a mortal reading it by taking the effects upon himself) after he saw what it did to Cyric (who at least couldn't 100% how it would affect him. Sure, one would have guessed it couldn't be good, but at least no one yet knew exactly what would happen)
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Cyric needs to actually achieve some kind of a real victory to be cool. Not a partial victory, not a Pyrrhic victory, not a blurry victory.
Well, he slew Leira. Even while being beaten at the hand of four rival powers aligned against him he struck back and took a part of Mask's portfolio and he forced Mystra to retreat from their battle while being denied the weave (which shouldn't have affected him on the planes in the first place) by simply tapping into the raw essence of the plane they were fighting on.
On the other hand, Bane and Bhaal never really achieved much as deities. They have the little backdrop telling that they once were awesome mortals, but as deities? Not so much.
Bhaal found his disgrace on the Moonshae's against some backwater demipower and Bane, well better not talk about how Bane was portrayed in the novels (e.g. Pools of Darkness which starts with a scene of Bane in his throne room throwing a tantrum like a spoiled child crying "wähh, wähh these mean mortals don't worship me enough") |
Edited by - Mirtek on 02 Jan 2013 18:42:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 18:52:20
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I do recall Brian's article saying the illusion on the moon dropped, and then quite some time later this lore was countermanded by something, although I can't remember precisely by what either. I just remember their being a big discussion over this at the WotC boards.
If I had to take a blind stab at it (going purely by memory), I would say someone didn't care for Brian having even mentioned that (SJ) bit, and it was overwritten in the 4e setting (and may even be so in the setting guide... I do recall it being mentioned somewhere...)
So it was more of a matter of it shouldn't have even been touched upon (because 4e wanted to actually ignore most previous lore), and it was changed, but only because it should never have been brought up in the first place. This makes the whole "who did what" in-setting argument kinda moot, IMHO, since a lot of that was outside-the-game 'politics'.
Like I said, just going by my memory of the discussions that were going on back when I was regular over at the WotC forums. It may have even been one of the many things Rich Baker was kind enough to touch upon in the "ask the designers" thread.
As for proof - many articles/posts/threads were edited/deleted when they re-redid their forums (after the miserable failure of that lime-green thing). I have gone back many a time to look for something and found it completely gone (even using the way-back machine). Not sure if a lot of that was on-purpose (like loosing all the 'freebies'), or just bad server migration handling.
We don't know if Leira was ever really dead (and even if she really was, precisely what dose that mean? gods aren't really alive anyway, only mortals are). So, she may or may not have been really dead. She may or may not have 'come back' soon after the ToT, or the Spellplague. She may still be dead (if she ever truly was), but will be back with Ao's reset (the Sundering).
So we have a deity that was alive with the OGB, and we have a deity who will be back after the sundering. What happened in-between is left up to you and your home games, which is precisely how it should be. We should never allow the lore to paint us into a corner. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2013 18:53:41 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 19:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Bhaal found his disgrace on the Moonshae's against some backwater demipower and Bane, well better not talk about how Bane was portrayed in the novels (e.g. Pools of Darkness which starts with a scene of Bane in his throne room throwing a tantrum like a spoiled child crying "wähh, wähh these mean mortals don't worship me enough")
The Earthmother is Chauntea.
And if we're going to bring up novels, there's the entire trial of Cyric the Mad, where Cyric's throwing a tantrum when Malik starts talking.
Novels aren't exactly the best place to start with for consistent characterization; otherwise Mystra runs the gamut from "K I've learned my lesson guys" to antagonizing the Lords of the Nine and directly attacking the Dark Lord of Nessus in his own throne room.
Or Mystra antagonizing Helm.
Or Bane twirling his Saturday Morning Cartoon villain moustache, because that's how obviously evil he is. Comapre his tantrum in Pools of Darkness to his appearance in the Thay series, talking to Szass Tam. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 02 Jan 2013 19:07:03 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 19:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
to his appearance in the Thay series, talking to Szass Tam.
Even more of a disgrace. To be summoned by a mere mortal and then held against his will. Sure, he could have broken free with some minor effort, but that it actually took him any effort at all was embarrassingly enough, he should have ripped Szass bound without even noticing that he was there.
Really, this whole scene was the one I most abhor in all FR novels I ever read (and I read almost all of them): If Szass can do that to Bane, who is one of the most powerful deities in the pantheon, what could he do to let's say Umberlee, who is less powerful than Bane? Or what could Larloch, more powerful than Szass, do to Umberlee?
The things implied by this interactions are even worse than the interaction itself.
Also a 1,000 year deal? I mean if one of the deities that is actually at least 1,000 years old had struck such an agreement (like the deities having been around for 10,000 years and more) it would be one thing? Yeah, that was supposed to show how little deities regard time, but Bane as a deity is less than 1,000 years old, he struck a bargain over a period longer than his entire existence and with a being who is should already be too powerful for his comfort
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We don't know if Leira was ever really dead
Beside sourcebooks (F&A; OHG; etc.) saying so out of game and Ao himself saying so ingame. Truly why won't anybody tell us something?
Sure, we can come up with crazy musings for everything. Maybe Leira is the only deity that ever existed and all other deities and Ao are just part of her deception? There's no definitive statement saying it ain't so, and even if there were, we could theorize it away anyway
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What happened in-between is left up to you and your home games, which is precisely how it should be. We should never allow the lore to paint us into a corner.
I don't agree. At least not fully.
There is a FR canon and then there are we, each of us free to ignore and twist that FR canon however we want it.
But without an FR canon there is no sense in asking "How is XY in the Realms", since all answers are always "however you want it, end of debate" |
Edited by - Mirtek on 02 Jan 2013 19:46:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 20:44:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
She may still be dead (if she ever truly was), but will be back with Ao's reset (the Sundering).
Do we know for a fact that she's coming back? My impression was that the "returned" deities would be more a case of undoing the information about how Deity A was really Deity B, as opposed to bringing back every deity that had ever fallen in the Realms.
Bringing back all fallen deities would actually create more issues -- for example, you'd have Mystryl, Karsus, Mystra 1.0, and Mystra 2.0, all vying for control of magic. And you'd also have Tyche and the deities that she was sundered into, Tymora and Beshaba... You'd have Kiputytto (sp?), and Herne, and the Seven Lost Gods, and Lurue only knows how many more.
That would be far more problematic than the 4E deific blender was. Between that issue and other things said about the NextRealms, I think we're only going to see a reset to the deific roster at the end of 3E, or even better, the roster from the beginning of 3E. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 22:53:44
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Can I say Leira, specifically, will be brought back after the sundering (2.0)? No, I cannot.
What I can say is that the statement "all the gods will be available for play" was made during the Gencon seminars. If you combine that with the other things said at the seminars (concerning the Sundering, and the direction of the Realms), then is highly likely that Leira will be one of the deities reinstated. I would be willing to bet that every deity that has died since the OGB will be back (ones that died before the published setting began... who knows?)
As for the musings about Leira: Ed has often said the gods are a mystery, and no-one knows 'the real deal' concerning them. The information we get in sourcebooks is just the best info available at that time (if for no other reason then future designers like to change/tweak things). We can find out she's been hiding all along, and instead of a retcon, they will simply classify it as 'new information' (you just gotta love the way BS can get approval so long as you word something differently). There isn't a single 'fact' about a fantasy RPG setting that isn't mutable on some level. Hell, historians are rewriting RW history all the time (and they, too, call it "new information has come to light".)
About Canon: I've been asking questions over at the Paizo board of late, and I learned something interesting. They have canon answers to some of the settings 'mysteries' that only the in-house designers are privy to, so that they don't accidentally break continuity. Most of that (like the death of Aroden) they have NO PLAN to ever release to the fanbase. I like that approach - YES, there should be a canon answer to every question, that every designer (or, at least the guys editing the freelancers) SHOULD know. Thats called setting continuity. That doesn't mean that we players/fans of the setting need ever know any of that. Do we want to now it? Damn right we do! Is it beneficial to the IP for them to tell us every little bit?
NO, plain and simple. And I'm a guy who loves his lore (aren't we all?) By telling us every last detail about every last thing they not only give themselves a monumental amount of homework for even the simplest assignments, but they also strip the setting of wonder and remove new possibilities. Suppose a few years down the road the Paizo guys decide they want to do something with the whole Aroden thing - something they hadn't thought of before. That is only possible because they never told the fans what 'the truth' was. Once fans get their greasy little mitts on a piece of canon the never let it go, and wield it like cudgel (against those same guys who brought us that lore in the first place).
Like Ed says, for every door you close, you should open three more. Lore should never dead-end like that. There should always be an 'out'. That being said, Leira died, as far as we know.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2013 22:56:40 |
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Leira, n'maerlyn myl mar'kov
