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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 00:39:58
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Since 12-21-2012 has come and passed (about a week now since the "end of the world"), and we are still amongst the living, I was wondering how many "prophecies" have failed in the Realms (or on Toril). Looking at how many we've had on Earth, it seems plausible that it may happen on Toril.
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
I'm sure other d&d worlds have had their fair share, but I can't seem to find any. Mayhaps I'm not looking in the right Realms books?
Edit: Mods, if this should be put into an existing scroll or another section, please do so. My internet is acting a little hinky today because of the storm and I can't do proper searches on this site without being kicked off the 'net.
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"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to?  |
Edited by - Xnella Moonblade-Thann on 28 Dec 2012 01:17:19
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 01:12:51
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| Alystra, is there a supposed "date" or phenominon that indicates when this will happen? |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 01:21:03
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It's important to note that even attempting to provide specific information about any prophecies should be exceedingly difficult, for the most part. After all, it's not unheard of for some prophecies, like those of Alaundo, to have a number of different ways they're interpreted/seen. So it's hard for us to determine whether they've "failed," or not.
...
Interestingly, we know one prophecy of Alaundo's has recently come about -- that of the Devil Dragon Nalavara's assault on Cormyr. The novels Beyond the High Road and Death of the Dragon have the details. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 02:13:31
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The complete details of the Cult and its beliefs and activities are discussed in "The Cult of the Dragion" 2nd ed sourcebook. There is also mention of them and the prophesy involved in various otehr sources, but I don't remember which ones, ATM. I'd assume that TGHotR would mention their founding by Sammaster (IIRC), and various other important events involving them.
As for the date of said prophesy, I haven't found one, but it was a mistranslation by Sammaster of a passage in the "Chronicle of Years to Come" written by Maglas. It doesn't seem to specify what year this is supposed to occur. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 03:13:33
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Well, you have the prophecies of the different churches, and then prophecies of the mages and diviners. Then you have the prophecies of the mad who think they hear gods and such, prophecies used to manipulate from outsiders and elements. Then there are the false prophecies developed against others (churches, governments, nobles, royals, wizards and so on) to bring them down or cause them harm.
The main reason Alaundo gets huge credit is because his prophecies has a huge success rate (only seeing 'True' prophecies).
So Most Prophecies have mix results, still when they do come true... then the speaker/source gains power. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 03:41:08
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Look at the first chapter or so of "Empires of the Shining Sea" for a good look at prophecies Schend-style.
-- George Krashos
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 05:03:29
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| The Abbalayar were some well sighted folk apparently...it is true. The Nar'ysr especially... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 05:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I. 
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark lady’s face reveals all. |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 07:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark lady’s face reveals all.
That's a neat one. Sounds like it could be from a book of poems/prose in the Realms. Dark lady's face...could that be a reference to either Shar or Lloth?
Hey, anybody else here at the 'Keep have something that could be a prophecy if interpreted correctly? |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 07:11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The Abbalayar were some well sighted folk apparently...it is true. The Nar'ysr especially...
In the Realms, we also can't wholly dismiss the considerable divination abilities of those particularly prescient Halruaans. |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 07:23:23
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| Sage, speaking of the Halruaans, what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed? XP |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 13:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Sage, speaking of the Halruaans, what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed? XP
There's not really any indication they knew what was coming -- they were planning to go into Shadow already, and the trip coincided with Karsus's Ultimate Folly spell.
And actually, we have three different canon versions of when they went. They either left the day before, or earlier the same morning, or right when the Fall started. I personally favor them leaving the day before, because while it strains believability to have the two events that close, it's less of a strain than the other two options. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 14:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark lady’s face reveals all.
That's a neat one. Sounds like it could be from a book of poems/prose in the Realms. Dark lady's face...could that be a reference to either Shar or Lloth?
I'm thinking it has something to do with the night of the new moon, myself... But I've never really worked out, for myself, any real meaning for this one.
When I made this one up, I wasn't concerned with meaning -- just something that sounded good and reasonably cryptic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 15:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Sage, speaking of the Halruaans, what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed? XP
I'm inclined to agree with Wooly.
There were undoubtedly powerful diviners among the Netherese, but I wouldn't think they'd have been prescient enough to have foreseen the Folly of Karsus.
In terms of what you're referencing above, I suspect you're probably thinking of Selűne saving the Enclave of Opus by shifting it away from the Prime Material Prime. Opus's save from apparent demise during Karsus's Folly was briefly referenced in the entry for Opus in the N:EoM boxed set. Whereupon it becomes Selűnarra in Lost Empires of Faerűn and now resides in Selűne's realm. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 15:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark lady’s face reveals all.
That's a neat one. Sounds like it could be from a book of poems/prose in the Realms. Dark lady's face...could that be a reference to either Shar or Lloth?
I'm thinking it has something to do with the night of the new moon, myself... But I've never really worked out, for myself, any real meaning for this one.
When I made this one up, I wasn't concerned with meaning -- just something that sounded good and reasonably cryptic.
Hmmmm. I like the idea that the three blades that rise are Mask in the form of a blade "slaying" Leira (which is secretly not true), then Tyr's blade slaying Helm, and finally Cyric "slaying" Mystra. On this piece though, I could accept many other options.
The eye in the crown is Myrkul in the crown of Horns and it means in the days following the "Night of Myrkul's Eye". The lost land that's found is Abeir. The fallen Queen who walks the path of fire is actually Mystra who is walking a path of blue fire back to the realms. The dark lady's face that reveals all is Leira slaying Shar and ultimately revealing her plot in the spellplague. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 16:11:50
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Aroden, the god of prophesy (in Golarion) was slain, probably by Asmodeus, who is canon to both settings.
Ergo, I say that ALL prophesy is no longer valid since the death of Aroden. 
(As always, I still believe there is only ONE planer reality and all are connected).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2012 17:05:15 |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 18:34:02
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@sleyvas: You're interpretation is much better than I could have come up with. It doesn't help that I was up until the wee hours of the morn with a mild case of insomnia and my brain was running on empty, plus the storm going on yesterday/last night was not helping (I was worried that the guy who plows the dooryard was going to hit my car, plus the people next door to where I was staying just had to go drifting in the parking lot next to us at two in the morning...not fun when you're ready to call the local police to report idiots.  Sorry for rambling off like that and going a little off-topic...).
@Sage: I was thinking on the enclave that was shifted to the Plane of Shadows/Shadowfell to avoid something horrible and had reappeared in the area in/around Anaroch[sp?] during the 1360s/1370s. I had forgotten the one you referenced. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 19:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aroden, the god of prophesy (in Golarion) was slain, probably by Asmodeus, who is canon to both settings.
Ergo, I say that ALL prophesy is no longer valid since the death of Aroden.
(As always, I still believe there is only ONE planer reality and all are connected).
I'm pretty sure that we don't know why Aroden died... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 19:35:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark lady’s face reveals all.
Hmmmm. I like the idea that the three blades that rise are Mask in the form of a blade "slaying" Leira (which is secretly not true), then Tyr's blade slaying Helm, and finally Cyric "slaying" Mystra. On this piece though, I could accept many other options.
The eye in the crown is Myrkul in the crown of Horns and it means in the days following the "Night of Myrkul's Eye". The lost land that's found is Abeir. The fallen Queen who walks the path of fire is actually Mystra who is walking a path of blue fire back to the realms. The dark lady's face that reveals all is Leira slaying Shar and ultimately revealing her plot in the spellplague.
An interesting interpretation, and not one that I'd thought of... Not sure that I'd go with it, myself, though -- I've never had any interest in Leira, and I think it's evident enough that she's dead.
Still, if it works for you, run with it! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 22:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
@Sage: I was thinking on the enclave that was shifted to the Plane of Shadows/Shadowfell to avoid something horrible and had reappeared in the area in/around Anaroch[sp?] during the 1360s/1370s. I had forgotten the one you referenced.
Are you referring to Negarath... the setting for Erik Scott de Bie's Depths of Madness novel?
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 23:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aroden, the god of prophesy (in Golarion) was slain, probably by Asmodeus, who is canon to both settings.
Ergo, I say that ALL prophesy is no longer valid since the death of Aroden.
(As always, I still believe there is only ONE planer reality and all are connected).
I'm pretty sure that we don't know why Aroden died...
yep they said constantly that they would not ever reveal that..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2012 : 09:52:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
...what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed?
As Wooly noted, there are 3 versions of the 'truth,' and all of them are (unfortunately, maddeningly) canon. I have my own conjectures, if you're interested...
People who have strong connection to the Weave must have seen glimpses of the aftermath of Karsus's Avatar spell. The Netherese are this kind of people, so are the elves.
Brennus didn't become a very powerful diviner on his own. He must have had an excellent teacher who lived long before Karsus was born. Said teacher, together with his peers (I'm not sure if Telamont's magical inclinations include divination), must have managed to glean significant pieces of Netheril's Fall... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 Dec 2012 10:16:35 |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 17:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
People who have strong connection to the Weave must have seen glimpses of the aftermath of Karsus's Avatar spell. The Netherese are this kind of people, so are the elves.
You seem to be right, Dennis. Given the high amount of magic in their society, and the fact that even commoners know cantrips and simple 1st-/2nd-level spells, there had to have been some among the Netherese (especially the higher-level mages and priests, as well as those who were more sensitive to the Art) who would've seen the after-effects of Karsus's actions. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:38:13
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Indeed. Besides, if a Zulkir of Divination (who was arguably as powerful as the late Halruan (Netherese) king, Zalathorm), managed to divine and clearly see the murder of Mystra, how much more a bunch of Netherese archwizards who are likely way beyond her. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:47:31
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The facts is it is hard to find a failed prophecy as you can just bring the prophecy up for later and later events.
Unless...
1) You have a deadline like 2012. We have a deadline so the prophecy can fail.
2) You have conflicting Prophecies, and even then one is could still come true.
Otherwise, you can recycle prophecies till the succeed. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 09:03:25
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| hmmm...never thought of those two points, Foxhelm. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:01:30
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Keep in mind old prophets are more likely to have uttered failed prophesies. Young seers are a more likely to have a unsullied trackrecord and are more numerous because of this.
I love to imagine that most clergy of Savras are enraptured by young girl and boy seers who seem to utter impeccable prophesies on a daily basis. The clergy are likely to safeguard these young seers from corrupting influences, keeping them in well protected sanctuaries in chamber bereft of sensory input and with as few influences from the outside world as possible. Some of those child prophets can be seen as the spiritual leaders over clergy well over their age, so seer hierarchies are more likely to be structured by inverted ages, with the old serving the young. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:09:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Keep in mind old prophets are more likely to have uttered failed prophesies. Young seers are a more likely to have a unsullied trackrecord and are more numerous because of this.
I love to imagine that most clergy of Savras are enraptured by young girl and boy seers who seem to utter impeccable prophesies on a daily basis. The clergy are likely to safeguard these young seers from corrupting influences, keeping them in well protected sanctuaries in chamber bereft of sensory input and with as few influences from the outside world as possible. Some of those child prophets can be seen as the spiritual leaders over clergy well over their age, so seer hierarchies are more likely to be structured by inverted ages, with the old serving the young.
I must say I don't agree here. I see people trusting only tried and true seers over some kids spouting what some might equate to pretty poetry. If an older seer gets something wrong on occasion, people might just chalk it up to interpretation. Moreso, I also see the younger seers asking for aid from the older seers to interpret the visions they're getting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:37:02
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| But such older sages need more and more of those excuses over time, whereas the younger seers (and their followers) are more likely to point at their infallible trackrecords as proof that they posses "the sight" more strongly than the peers. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:08:06
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For all the criticism he takes, I think Terry Goodkind (Sword of Truth series) has a really great take on prophesy.
Prophesies are just branches off a tree - the tree of time. As each branch 'bears fruit' it invalidates other prophesies that were spawned form other branches. That means that once a Seer hits a major snafu (is wrong about something), their prophesies become more and more unreliable as things move forward (because they were making predictions down a specific path of prophesy which eventually failed).
I believe Szass Tam used a spell to duplicate this sort of 'prophesy effect' - he was able to see down several branches (which equate to alternate realities). Supposedly the number of these branches is near-infinite, and he was only able to see down a few at a time without being driven mad. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2012 15:08:31 |
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Failed "prophecises" in the Realms
