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Mystic Lemur
Seeker
58 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 08:00:38
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Even in a society where there are (poorly) defined gradations of "person"hood, it's still illegal to kill children. It's still illegal to be cruel to animals or to kill them just for killing's sake. If the hat is the only thing keeping Frosty alive, then it would be murder to remove it. Of course, it goes back to "Is the sentience in the snow or the hat?" If you put the hat on a new snowman, would it be Frosty, or a completely new "life"? What about helping Frosty go North? Are you a murderer if you don't help him?
Going to a further extreme, what are the moral implications of bringing Frosty to life in an area that can only support his kind for a small part of the year? Were those children "evil" for making something that they knew would soon melt? |
"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 17:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Those reckless, irresponsible life-giving kids!
There is a reason that youth often go to a special court, it is because they are children. It though is important to remember they did not intend to create life. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 17:58:51
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| Ok, bringing this back to game terms more.... a simulacrum is a magical automaton made from snow which displays intelligence, problem solving capabilities, and can even sometimes perform magic. If its destroyed, is it murder? Note, in this case, I would be satisfied if people debated "in X country it might be, but in Y country I don't think so". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 18:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, that's taking it a bit far, isn't it? I can see him maybe being pro-green, but come on! This was a guy whose first words were "happy birthday"! He was just out playing and having fun with some kids, for heaven's sake! And now he's a threat to humanity because he might decide to make the whole world COLD??!! Funny, that doesn't sound like the fun-loving jolly soul from the song. I'd honestly have pegged him as a very child-like being. And what was his main goal? Oh yeah- getting to the North Pole. Y'know, so he wouldn't MELT.... And he promised he'd return to the kids, too (And if anyone recalls Frosty 2, he did indeed do just that!) YEah- osunds like a REAL threat!
Everyone who is, was once a child...but children become adults.
Before I go on...Frosty is a sweet guy...I'm not saying all new life is going to be violent or anything.
Having said that: Being a unique life, we have an instance in fact that in our culture shows what humanity might even be like in our future when we discover unique life = Data from Star Trek.
There were HUGE measures in place to prevent Data from replicating himself...and when he did in fact try, it was monitored oh so closely from fear. And THAT is the mythical future of Star Trek...which would be nice, but I don't see it happening.
The human animal can idealize great things...but it is our application of our ideas that we invariably fail at! Like ALL organisms (plants included) we are hard-wired to flourish and multiply at the expense of those in our way. Even once we force out all organisms that are unlike us, we then turn on each other to eliminate even those similar to, but not exactly like, us.
This is contrary to what humans accept about their animal nature (as many believe they are not animals obviously); but it applies to every other single form of life we know of on earth...
So yeah, perhaps sentience is hard-wired with "I have to survive, what threatens my survival must be pushed aside/perish"...and if that is the case, then even Frosty the Snowman could perhaps eventually turn into Frosty the Abominable Snowman.
OR
I could be full of bologna and disregard everything I just said. 
And to again, take this back to game a little bit.... what if someone got ahold of a handful of say Elminster's flesh and made a simulacrum of him..... and that simulacrum then began making an army of other simulacrums (because even at half its level, it can still cast the simulacrum spell) and other constructs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2012 : 04:09:59
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If Frosty will turn to evil, it will be effort of many evil deeds he sees that may break his hope in humanity. It all would depend on humans.
And about dragon taking Mithral Halls. He attacked with overpowering strength and a lot of allies, ruthlessly and without any care for spilled blood. Dwarves defended well, but facing death in battle that could not be won is just plain idiocy, even for stubborn dwarves. It would only make sense to run away for another recapture in future. However, moral was very low with their true king lost in depths and dragon taking their only home, so few would return.
What exactly makes the ones who kill dragon wrong in this situation?
About Frosty, it still would be very wrong to kill it just for 'what if' motive. Just like killing a puppy because it may turn in human eater in three years. You would not kill a puppy, would you? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 02:59:34
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I don't see it as pulling the plug on someone helpless...and aside from that, I'm not a cold hearted fiend...but few in my family would want to live on a machine...especially not me!
The true question is simply this in game terms that we are talking about: does the wizard have a right to his hat if he threw it away?
My answer would be no.
However, since Frosty is an automoton (sp?); then I wouldn't blink if the wizard took it back. Would I help stop him? Yeah, sure; but I wouldn't be heart-broken if Frosty stopped being... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 04:18:10
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| So your assessment is that an artificial life-form has less right to live than a human (or whatever other race one happens to be)? Doesn't that strike you as a bit hypocritical? Or speciesist? Does it matter if the life-form was "built" (like Warforged were) and given life later, instead of born? (Or hatched! Can't forget the lizardfolk and others who come from eggs and such...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 15:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So your assessment is that an artificial life-form has less right to live than a human (or whatever other race one happens to be)? Doesn't that strike you as a bit hypocritical? Or speciesist? Does it matter if the life-form was "built" (like Warforged were) and given life later, instead of born? (Or hatched! Can't forget the lizardfolk and others who come from eggs and such...)
Speciesist????
We are still talking fantasy right?
If fantasy, then it would depend on the character I'm playing...
If we are talking "real life" then anything that would be a threat to humanity as a whole, then a threat is a threat. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 19:00:14
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Fantasy, of course. But that sounds like a rather paranoid mind-set, to point out the obvious. How is an "artificial life-form" (a la Data, as an example) a threat to humanity? Then again, how do we define "humanity"? Human beings are one species among many in the fantasy genre, and by that logic, ANY other race/species is a threat! So does that mean that humans should kill off all elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc? Or vice-versa? If we were going from a dwarven perspective, would that mean killing off all the humans? The reasoning is flawed.
Humanity isn't just the state of being A "human" (or elf, dwarf, whatever). It means being HUMANE, and being able to show compassion, empathy, and tolerance for another living being, no matter what it is or looks like. It's the reason there are laws against animal cruelty, harming children, or racially-motivated violence.... The list goes on. Those things are violations of basic accepted behaviors of human beings. (Or, again, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and all the rest.) When we write about different races living together and sharing the same world, we are exploring the beliefs and practices that are inherant in that situation, the tolerance and acceptance that come with having more than one intelligent, feeling species on the same world. Star Trek has always been good at exploring these issues. When Kirk was assigned to escort the Klingon Ambassador, even though Starfleet knew his feelings about Klingons, it was with the understanding that he would not act on those feelings, however justified he might have been in having them. Klingons HAD BEEN a threat to "humanity" prior to that, and the two races had been at war numerous times. But they managed to make peace, and even put aside their differences enough to become allies.
They explored the issue of artificial life throughout the ST: TNG series, not only with Data, but his "brother" Lore, Data's "daughter" Lal, and again in Voyager with the Doctor EMH. In the end, the understanding of what "humanity" means was expanded to include those beings, who were all self-aware, intelligent, capable of moral and ethical decicions, etc. Notice I did not say "feeling" as Data spent the better part of his existance with no emotions at all. He was incapable of them, and therefore could not understand basic human emotions. However, he did ATTEMPT to learn and understand them, to the best of his ability. That made him at least somewhat "human', as far as he was able to be. Like Pinochio, he was built/made with a concience, never mind that it was a cumputer chip! Does this make him a threat? Was Lal a threat? What about the Doctor? He became fully sentient over the course of his existance, and even wrote a book on the issue he faced of not being allowed to have basic rights of freedom, happiness, and even "life". Starfleet treated him as a simple tool, even though he had demonstrated that he'd gone FAR beyond his original programming as a holographic construct. He had even made alterations and additions to his own programming to better enable him to perform his job and help the crew in times of crisis- even going so far as to have Janeway give him command protocols in case the bridge crew was incapacitated and unable to do their duty!
Arguably, the only example among those characters who was ever a threat, was Lore, but that was a product of his "human" emotions. He was jealous and resentful of Data, and attempted more than once to kill him- along with the Enterprise crew. He even tried to kill their creator out of anger and jealousy. But it was the emotions that made him a threat- not the fact that he was an AI life-form. Humans themselves kill each other all the time, without it being an issue of threatening humanity as a whole. So which is the greater threat? A single artificial life that becomes jealous of his own brother, or humans (or any other race you could name in fantasy/Sci-Fi) who attepmt to systematically stamp out the rights of other races/species to live? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 22:51:27
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First, rights are a concept...not a real thing...they are simply a great idea. Nobody really has rights. If you believe anyone has a right, that is the first flaw.
Second, in the fantasy genre, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and such are truthfully considered part of what is accepted in civilization (at least in most games). Some worlds may include Minotaurs (Krynn), Warforged (Ebbewhatsit), or any other...heck, in my own world of Aerk Lizardfolk and Goblins are part of "normal"...but on the edge of that are the Monsters. Monsters are for adventurers to kill and destroy.
We can't get too complicated with "who is allowed to be left alone..." or suddenly we are surrounded by pacifist adventurers who are afraid to kill any monsters and take any loot! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 23:45:59
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Gaming conventions are fine for simple hack-and-slash campaigns, but eventually you have to go beyond the simple explaination of "It's a monster, kill it!" Dragons are also "monsters", but many are benevolant and even helpful, and a few go so far as to join in the civilizations of smaller humanoid folk, often for decades or centuries at a time, out of simple curiosity, altruistic impulses, or boredom. A monster is only what the DM or world-designer makes of it. If that's all they are there for in your game-world, that's fine if that's the type of campaign you run/play, but what of gamers who want more? Many gamers have grown past that type of kill-first, ask questions later mentality. Those gamers want the game-world to have a sense of depth and realism that is usually lacking in a hack-and-slash campaign. They want to know WHY it's okay to kill the goblins in the mountains, or raid the dragon's lair. A deep, rich game-world can't be based on just killing anything that doesn't look "human". Adventurers don't have to be pacifists who are afraid to kill or loot monsters. They just need a valid reason for doing so- such as if that monster is truly a threat by ravaging the region and is itself killing/looting, etc.
Rights don't exist? That's a fallacy in itself. If you believe THAT, then you yourself have suddenly lost all "right" to exist, by that reasoning. Does that mean someone else can just kill you and loot your house? Of course not. That would violate your most basic "rights", which you claim don't even exist. Every cognizant being understands that it has the "right" to live, to try to procreate if it wishes, and to provide for itself and its offspring, if any. What most people fail to realize is that those rights ONLY extend to an individual's basic needs. The moment they infringe on the same rights of others, that is when problems occur. This is the ultimate basis of a society of any sentient beings, be it elven, human, dwarven, or even orc or robot! Civilization can ONLY exist when beings recognize and accept that every member has those rights, or that civilization crumbles. Without that concept, there IS no organized or coherent society, because then every member would be ultimately doing whatever it wants to every other member, simply because they can. Without rights, there IS no civilization, at all! Saying that there are no rights is simple arrogance, in the end. And since you appear to be in USA, I find it incredibly shocking that you would hold that view. Do the Consitution, Declaration of Independance, and Emancipation Proclamation mean nothing? Those works, while flawed, are the basis of our own soiety's values and code of ethics, without which the country we both live in would not stand. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Frosty Moral Question....
