Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Known Yuir Gods
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7431 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2014 :  01:53:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm a fan of the concept that there were multiple regional pantheons with either separate, smaller deities or larger, current deities being worshipped with different names. One only has to read "Prayers of the Faithful" to see that Ed subscribes to the notion that gods in the Realms have multiple names. I would attribute some to rituals of worship, but others to the fact that deities swallowed up and subsumed a host of smaller deities when the Faerunian pantheon was established. So, in my Realms, the proto-humans who lived north of the great forests of Cormanthyr (and were responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven) worshipped Irmider who would later become a part of Silvanus, Enthandas as Selune, Arnaglaerus as Gond, etc. etc.

-- George Krashos



Great Lore, as allways George, I plan campaign in Dalelans and Moonsea, so I use this!

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, in essence, my viewpoint on these Yuir gods are that they were actually the gods of these other races, and the primitive humans who came along picked up the worship of these other races gods (possibly the gods of the other races looking for new worshippers in the decline of their own races). So, the Plant folk (and possibly the elves) worshipped Relkath of the Infinite Branches. The Quaggoths worshipped Magnar the Bear. Possibly the various cat folk worshipped Felidae. The gnolls, lupins, tauric-dog people worshipped a canine oriented being (possibly even the primordial wolf). Then the elves brought along Elikarashae and the Simbul. Zandilar the dancer could have even been some kind of god of say the hybsil or the Ibixians or something else.



Good ideas sleyvas, but I think that Zandilar was a Fey goddess/power, and while the Ibixians are fey, Zandilar's blue skin may idicate she worshipped by a diffent species of Fey or Beastmen.
The only blue-skinned Fey I remember, are quicklings. The Quicklings have very short lives, by the age of ten, they are elderly, and they often die before they reach a dozen years. So the portfolio of Zandilar, that 'focused on intense passionate love that burned quickly and died out' might fit a deity that originated from such a short lived folk. The only problem is the quicklings tendency to be evil. Maybe she was worshipped by the quicklings ancestors, who had still more of their brownie ancestors traits?



Hmmmm, blue skinned fey being? So, possibly water oriented... possibly "winter" oriented.... Could Zandilar the dancer have been a goddess of ice skating? Possibly a love child of Auril's raised by a Yuir deity (as in maybe a Yuir deity "stole" his child after Auril birthed it)?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2014 :  22:24:49  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, It's a possibily that Zandilar was Auril's child, and I and a few others proposed allready that the Ice Maiden might actually been a member of the Yuir/Arthraen pantheon. I think that Zandilar might have been the Quicklings patron, but with her death, Auril took over as the races patron, which caused the majority of this fey species to shift to evil.
By the way, I think that another candidate for a member of the pantheon, under the sky/weather portfolio, might have been Syranita, who could have been worhipped by the Avariel and Aearee originaly.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7431 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2014 :  01:32:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Hmm, It's a possibily that Zandilar was Auril's child, and I and a few others proposed allready that the Ice Maiden might actually been a member of the Yuir/Arthraen pantheon. I think that Zandilar might have been the Quicklings patron, but with her death, Auril took over as the races patron, which caused the majority of this fey species to shift to evil.
By the way, I think that another candidate for a member of the pantheon, under the sky/weather portfolio, might have been Syranita, who could have been worhipped by the Avariel and Aearee originaly.




Hmmm, I like the idea of Zandilar being their patron. Maybe it was simply the death of Zandilar (i.e. their creator) that turned the Quicklings to evil, and not necessarily any turning to Auril. However, a linkage between Zandilar and Auril does make sense as well. Maybe Zandilar was a being birthed of Aurilandur (the frost sprite queen) before she was affected by the black gem.... possibly a being birthed of Aurilandur and Ulutiu (he was a sea god in the area... with relations to cold).

Hmmm, Zandilar was assaulted by an underdark deity (Vhaeraun), who also birthed Selvetarm on her..... and Auril was affected by the power of the black gem (rumored to have been created by a "dark god" of the underdark)..... I wonder.... Might the drow pantheon and the Yuir gods have come to a head at some time?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2014 :  07:45:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's quite possible they did have some fights. Interestingly, Auril was a member of Anti-Seldarine(Different from Dark Seldarine), along with Gruumsh, Malar and Lloth.

The "Dark God" is usualy said to be Tharizdun, which in the Realms would translate to either Shar, Moander or Ghaunadaur. In my own Forgotten Realms campaign, I have Moander as the Dark God/Tharizdun's counterpart. Also Elves seem to have an ancient antagonism/relationship with the Darkbringer, and Lloth assumed his/her/it's name in order to get more worshippers among surface elves. Not to mention, the corruption of Auril, was very similar to the corruption of Tyche, that gave birth to
Tymora and Beshaba.

[Edit]
Elikarashae was said to be an enemy of drow and trolls, and apparently the original Black Archer. Maybe she was killed in a fight between the Drow and Yuir Pantheons. Shevarash was then merged with her remains, to become the new Black Archer, I think the situation being something similar to that with Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight. This would give an even deeper meaning to Shevarash's hatred of drow, as it's not only his own, but is also strengthened by the hate he inherited from Elikarashae.

[Edit2]
Also, what is interesting, Auril has Moander among her foes...

Edited by - Baltas on 13 Sep 2014 11:17:23
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2014 :  18:39:44  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Elikarashae was said to be an enemy of drow and trolls, and apparently the original Black Archer. Maybe she was killed in a fight between the Drow and Yuir Pantheons. Shevarash was then merged with her remains, to become the new Black Archer, I think the situation being something similar to that with Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight. This would give an even deeper meaning to Shevarash's hatred of drow, as it's not only his own, but is also strengthened by the hate he inherited from Elikarashae.

Also, what is interesting, Auril has Moander among her foes...


I've noticed you're refering to Elikarashae as a female warrior, but no 2e source leads us to believe the warrior was female, and at least one actually makes me believe the deity was a male warrior before apotheosis. Are there later sources changing this?

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7431 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2014 :  19:56:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

It's quite possible they did have some fights. Interestingly, Auril was a member of Anti-Seldarine(Different from Dark Seldarine), along with Gruumsh, Malar and Lloth.

The "Dark God" is usualy said to be Tharizdun, which in the Realms would translate to either Shar, Moander or Ghaunadaur. In my own Forgotten Realms campaign, I have Moander as the Dark God/Tharizdun's counterpart. Also Elves seem to have an ancient antagonism/relationship with the Darkbringer, and Lloth assumed his/her/it's name in order to get more worshippers among surface elves. Not to mention, the corruption of Auril, was very similar to the corruption of Tyche, that gave birth to
Tymora and Beshaba.

[Edit]
Elikarashae was said to be an enemy of drow and trolls, and apparently the original Black Archer. Maybe she was killed in a fight between the Drow and Yuir Pantheons. Shevarash was then merged with her remains, to become the new Black Archer, I think the situation being something similar to that with Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight. This would give an even deeper meaning to Shevarash's hatred of drow, as it's not only his own, but is also strengthened by the hate he inherited from Elikarashae.

[Edit2]
Also, what is interesting, Auril has Moander among her foes...




Hmmmm, that's an interesting take... and in another thread we were talking about Moander coming back. If the black gem were a creation of his, it might be that his followers could use it to "re-awaken" him somehow.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2014 :  21:22:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Elikarashae was said to be an enemy of drow and trolls, and apparently the original Black Archer. Maybe she was killed in a fight between the Drow and Yuir Pantheons. Shevarash was then merged with her remains, to become the new Black Archer, I think the situation being something similar to that with Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight. This would give an even deeper meaning to Shevarash's hatred of drow, as it's not only his own, but is also strengthened by the hate he inherited from Elikarashae.

Also, what is interesting, Auril has Moander among her foes...


I've noticed you're refering to Elikarashae as a female warrior, but no 2e source leads us to believe the warrior was female, and at least one actually makes me believe the deity was a male warrior before apotheosis. Are there later sources changing this?



Hmmm, when you mentioned it, I also don't know such official sources, at least exacly official ones. I found that Elikarashae is a goddess/female from internet, unoficial sources, like the Forgotten Realms wiki. I thought they are based on some info from 3.0-3.5 source books, novels, or from asking authors direcly, but I can't find them now...

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmmm, that's an interesting take... and in another thread we were talking about Moander coming back. If the black gem were a creation of his, it might be that his followers could use it to "re-awaken" him somehow.



One of my main inspirations for this idea, is the fact that only Moander and Tharizun showed such impressive, deity corrupting powers. Even Shar had to corrupt Sharess slowly.

[Edit]
Yeah, if the black gem is a creation of Moander, it could serve as a part of ritual to resurrect Moander.
But one could technicaly use also Ghaunadaur as Tharizdun, especaly that late 3.5e and 4e materials connected them.

Edited by - Baltas on 14 Sep 2014 23:28:55
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2014 :  01:44:21  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Hmmm, when you mentioned it, I also don't know such official sources, at least exacly official ones. I found that Elikarashae is a goddess/female from internet, unoficial sources, like the Forgotten Realms wiki. I thought they are based on some info from 3.0-3.5 source books, novels, or from asking authors direcly, but I can't find them now...


I've checked the Forgotten wiki and it only mentions the Spellbound 2e boxed set as a source. But this is exactly the source I've consulted previously, see what it says:

"Elikarashae: A mighty elven warrior who bore three
great weapons: the spear Shama, which could speak to
elven warriors of pure heart and noble mind; the sling
Ukava, that never missed; and the club Maelat, which
could only be wielded in defense of the Yuir. Elikarashae
fought many of the Yuir“s enemies and was finally lifted
up to Arvandor and made a god.
"

It says "god", not "goddess", so I don't know how the author concluded Elikarashae was a female warrior. The deity“s other mention in this same book is only a name in the list of the Yuir deities.

EDIT:Typo and format

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 15 Sep 2014 01:52:32
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2014 :  12:57:24  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, it shows you cannot really trust too much stuff you find on the internet XD

I think the source of Elikarashae being a goddess, can be this article on the The Forgotten Realms Mailing List:

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0002b&L=realms-l&D=1&P=37080

Although, I still woder if there isn't a more canon source, just the editor/author of the article didn't list it. But as of now, yeah, the fact that Elikarashae was a goddess seems to be purely fan made.
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  20:45:16  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The author says the gender of Elikarashae is undefined, but the text says "god", which seems a male term to me, and not "deity", for example, that would be understood as undefined, IMHO.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2014 :  21:15:29  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, your actualy right it does imply a male god. But on the other hand, the term "god' can be also used a ender neutral therm, just like the word "man" can be used for a human of either gender. But still, it seems that the article on Forgotten Realms wiki should be edited, or the author/editor should give his source(s), as those we know about, imply Elikarashae male, if anything.
Go to Top of Page

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1464 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2014 :  03:00:07  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, IF there is another source... For in the Forgotten Wiki the only reference is to the 2e source I mentioned before - the Spellbound boxed set.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 25 Sep 2014 18:36:50
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7431 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  16:37:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote

cast Divine Thread Necromancy

So, I've been hinting around at some of this in various things I'm looking at. I just wanted to take a second and kind of get all my thoughts together. I do find it interesting that myself and Krash are heading in the same direction of "many of these gods started getting impacted by demon gods involving Narathmault". Anyway, I want to relist what I consider the Yuir deities, some of which cross with the deities of Rashemen.

Essentially, I'd like to take the Yuir/Rashemi powers and link them to "primal spirits" & gods which correspond to many myths of either Finnish or Norse origin in our world. To start this discussion, I'd like to lay out the gods I can think of and then detail

Elikarashae (subsumed by Shevarash) - I don't want to discuss this god, as I consider them purely a god that comes later, was only around a short time, and then consumed by Shevarash.

Magnar the Bear (documented as subsumed by Rillifane Rallathil, but I'd prefer this be a misunderstanding by sages who don't know the truth about gods) - I actually would like to equate this deity to the norse deity of strength, Magni, the son of Thor. Amongst the Metahel pantheon that I have, I've been calling him Magnaer. I would actually have him having made an ursine race in the region which has since died off or moved into the underdark to become the quaggoth. Why did they go into the underdark? You know... they have this place nearby called Narathmault/Dun-Tharos... the Dark Pit...

Relkath of the Infinite Branches (subsumed by Rillifane Rallathil) - this entity becomes a personification of the World Ash in Finnish and Norse Lore. While he is also a god of trees, if we delve his mysteries way back when, he's also got some other unusual portfolios, involving things like portals, etc....

The Simbul (subsumed by Labelas Enoreth) aka "The Hidden One"- I've chosen to combine these two, as what we know of both is limited. The Simbul is a goddess of Fate, the edge, the moment of choice. The Hidden One is equated to Mystra, magic, etc... but I'd prefer she not be, but I'd equate her to ley lines and the magic of the land (or place magic as its known in Rashemen) and the magic of spirits/telthors/weaveghosts. She is a goddess of the spirit which is hidden within us all, and its ties to the weave that surrounds and permeates all. She is "The Simbul, the one who is hidden"... a love child of Annam's on Bhalla (a different aspect of herself from Othea), who was protected from his wrath By Bhalla, Khelliara, and the child calling upon the Archfey known as the Queen of Summer, the Queen of Winter, and the Queen of the Hags. To those who claim to have seen her, she most often seen as a great pheasant of either pure white light or rainbow coloration.... however, she is also known to appear to be a human whose silver tresses glow with almost a light of their own. Most often a being of quiet contemplation, when her ire is raised, at a moment's notice her inner glow can become a raging fire, capable of consuming those who threaten her.

Zandilar the Dancer (subsumed by Sharess) - There's already enough to this goddess, that I don't want to touch her at this time.

Bhalla - I've been equating her very much to Audumbla the Cow, licking at the rime of creation to uncover new life and nourishing some of the first gods. While Faerun equates her to Chauntea... I think its more complex than that. I equate her to a "mother goddess" above all else, and her focus is on nurturing new life. In this way, she may have aspects that actually are Othea.. Hathor.. Maztica... Chauntea... and Bhalla is just the one in Rashemen. So, the Faerunians have "the right of it", but they don't fully understand it... and maybe it even confuses some gods. A theme of hers may be "dying for her people" (and thus Othea, Maztica... and unknown to the Mulans people, Hathor... are all dead aspects who gave their portfolios over to another aspect). She isn't worried about whether the life she brings into the world is good or evil... just so long as its new life. So, she brought into the world via her various aspects ogres, true giants, minotaurs, some races of hags, giant-kin, etc... as well as many gods and goddesses in numerous pantheons.

Khelliara - Rashemi goddess of forests and hunting. I've not wanted to say this goddess "is" any other being. However, I like to equate her to certain types of animals. For instance, deer, elk, horses, falcons, foxes, squirrels, and rabbits. She is the hunter and the hunted. I wouldn't be surprised if she is something of a sister to Lurue, but I picture her mostly as a great stag goddess. I equate her to the creation of the Shatjan, centaurs, and hybsil of the region. We also have another entity known as the Stag King in this area, who isn't "quite" a god, but he produces this race of stag headed people we see in some recent brotherhood of the griffin novels. It just popped in my head that it might be interesting if this primal spirit were tricked by Eltab, Lord of the Hidden Layer, and impregnated. The Stag King may be the child of this union, whom Khelliara protected from his father.

Felidae the cat goddess - This goddess originally comes from Mystaran lore. Not really much to this one, other than maybe some Rakshasa deity like Ravanna started stealing her worshippers from the Hordelands, and thus she slowly weakened until Bast/Sharess took her over. She may have given up the sound of cat's walking in order to create the chain which confined Fenris/Kezef/Kezris the primordial wolf.

Freki the wolf (Lord of Hunger) and Geri the wolf (Lord of Greed)- These two are primal spirits. They also don't like Kezef the Chaos Hound, who possibly slew their master in an earlier age. They create the gnolls in the region (who are actually more wolf-like than hyena like way back when, but breeding with other gnolls changes them over centuries). Worship of these deities falls quickly when worship of the demon lord Yeenoghu expands into the region.

So, in the above, we have a cow, a bear, 2 wolves, a pheasant, a stag, a cat, a tree, and whatever Zandilar was (she may be an interloping archfey)... and then later a risen elf.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  15:22:00  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something Khelliara, connecting to Yuir deities, might be another Alias of Mielikki, her Seldarine name/aspect Khalreshaar, first detailed in Demihuman Deities, I think.

Khelliara and Khalreshaar are extremelly similar names, and the difference could be explained by difference/dvergent evolution in language between Northern and South Rashemi (and Raumviran?) tribes.

Seeing how the Seldarine absorbed the Yuir deities, it would fit that Mielikki in part became an interoper deity to Seldarine, by the absorption/merger of Khalreshaar/Khelliara, who was worshipped by the Yuir Elves.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7431 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  23:48:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Something Khelliara, connecting to Yuir deities, might be another Alias of Mielikki, her Seldarine name/aspect Khalreshaar, first detailed in Demihuman Deities, I think.

Khelliara and Khalreshaar are extremelly similar names, and the difference could be explained by difference/dvergent evolution in language between Northern and South Rashemi (and Raumviran?) tribes.

Seeing how the Seldarine absorbed the Yuir deities, it would fit that Mielikki in part became an interoper deity to Seldarine, by the absorption/merger of Khalreshaar/Khelliara, who was worshipped by the Yuir Elves.



Yeah, it would mainly depend on when Mielikki is first heard of in the realms. Any ideas when that first was? I'm really hesitant for this because basically Mielikki up until the time of troubles was making her home on the Prime Material Plane. In essence, I'm seeing that as "Mielikki arrived after the Imaskari Godswall and had to pull a similar trick as the Mulan gods" (or after -4366 DR). I say this because Mielikki is definitely multi-spheric (being from the Finnish Pantheon), so why would she make her home on Toril if she wasn't forced to. The same may be true of a lot of other "bound to Toril before the ToT" gods, such as Siamorphe, the Red Knight, Torm, Eldath, Gargauth... though in their cases they aren't known as multi-spheric so it may be a power level thing.

Hmmm, actually, that kind of opens up a "how did the godswall work" that I really like. What if it only stopped any deity who was "multispheric" from coming over and having their current divine domain (i.e. they had to send manifestations if they were THAT desperate)? I know some will say that Tyr appeared and he's multi-spheric, but my take on that in working with the Metahel/northmen around Anchorome is that Tyr may have been on Toril for a long time. Same with Heimdall.. I mean Helm. Same with Valigan the Runtborn Giant (or was it Valigan Thirdborn or maybe his name was ... Loki) . That concept, that maybe Ao aided the Imaskari in their efforts to create the godswall, works for me... as it effectively has Ao getting tired of gods from 40 other crystal spheres showing up and telling him "but my overpower in X-space lets me do it". He'd still let the little guys in, as they aren't a problem for him to control, and they're just happy to have a backup crystal sphere in case they die in their original. But any multi-spheric power... you want in, make a manifestation and sit it in the prime material.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Feb 2018 00:26:07
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  03:06:37  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Mielikki was on Faerun at least as far in the past, as 627 DR (from TGHoTR)
quote:
Ecamane Truesilver and his nine apprentices arrive in Silverymoon [574,
637]. Claiming that five goddesses (Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Mystra, and Sehanine) drew them there, the mages create a school of magic patterned
on elf teachings.


I think though she is also a fairly ancient deity, and one worshipped for long by elves besides Seldarine - especially that Ed seemed to have introduced Eldath and Mielikki as deities connected to elves and the Fey especially that in Down to Earth Divinity, the first apperance of the Faerunian Pantheon in official materials, Mielikki is stated to be worshipped by Dryadsas well Mielikki in general being connected to fey deities (Lurue, Shiallia etc.) I don't see Fey like Dryads, easily converting to a "new-ish" deity.

And I think Mielikki, being possibly restricted to the Prime Material plane, does stop her from merging with other Powers, or Subsuming or absorbing them - after all, Bast exactly did absorb Zandilar and Felidae when in this situation.

My guess is, that with elves popularily worshipping Mielikki in Western Faerun, when the Seldarine and the Yuir pantheon merged, they proposed Mielikki to merge with/absorb Khelliara/Khalreshaar, as token of good will to cement her becoming an interloper of sorts to the Seldarine pantheon.

Another possibility though, is that the merger of Mielikki with Khelliara/Khalreshaar, only happened during, or after the Time of Troubles - I think the first canon sources identifying Mielikki with Khelliara/Khalreshaar, are 2nd edition or younger, and set after the Time of Trouble.

This would also explain Mielikki's rise in power from demigodess, to lesser deity.

Khelliara/Khalreshaar, I think would survive so long (till the Time of Troubles), opposed to other Yuirs Gods, thanks to her worship in Rashemen, and possibly Thesk.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 Feb 2018 03:08:08
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7431 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  13:21:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, Mielikki was on Faerun at least as far in the past, as 627 DR (from TGHoTR)
quote:
Ecamane Truesilver and his nine apprentices arrive in Silverymoon [574,
637]. Claiming that five goddesses (Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Mystra, and Sehanine) drew them there, the mages create a school of magic patterned
on elf teachings.


I think though she is also a fairly ancient deity, and one worshipped for long by elves besides Seldarine - especially that Ed seemed to have introduced Eldath and Mielikki as deities connected to elves and the Fey especially that in Down to Earth Divinity, the first apperance of the Faerunian Pantheon in official materials, Mielikki is stated to be worshipped by Dryadsas well Mielikki in general being connected to fey deities (Lurue, Shiallia etc.) I don't see Fey like Dryads, easily converting to a "new-ish" deity.

And I think Mielikki, being possibly restricted to the Prime Material plane, does stop her from merging with other Powers, or Subsuming or absorbing them - after all, Bast exactly did absorb Zandilar and Felidae when in this situation.

My guess is, that with elves popularily worshipping Mielikki in Western Faerun, when the Seldarine and the Yuir pantheon merged, they proposed Mielikki to merge with/absorb Khelliara/Khalreshaar, as token of good will to cement her becoming an interloper of sorts to the Seldarine pantheon.

Another possibility though, is that the merger of Mielikki with Khelliara/Khalreshaar, only happened during, or after the Time of Troubles - I think the first canon sources identifying Mielikki with Khelliara/Khalreshaar, are 2nd edition or younger, and set after the Time of Trouble.

This would also explain Mielikki's rise in power from demigodess, to lesser deity.

Khelliara/Khalreshaar, I think would survive so long (till the Time of Troubles), opposed to other Yuirs Gods, thanks to her worship in Rashemen, and possibly Thesk.



Bear in mind though, "ancient" in this reference could still be 3, 4, even five thousand years and the Imaskari godswall would still be up. If Mielikki showed up say 3 thousand years ago, I could still see people considering her ancient. Meanwhile the star elves start showing up in the Yuirwood in -6950 DR and Yuireshanyaar is formed in -6600 DR. All of that's still more 2 thousand years before the Imaskar godswall is formed.

That being said, having Mielikki subsuming Khelliara after the ToT would make sense. While she may have fervent followers in Rashemen, it might make sense to have it have happened then, and then we can still have Khelliara in previous lore acting totally differently and have conflicting stories. In fact, the idea you mention of Khalreshaar and the story of Mielikki being a daughter of Silvanus and Hanali Celanil could be that Silvanus and Hanali produced the original Khelliara (or even the story is wrong and Silvanus and Bhalla or Silvanus and Zandilar the Dancer produced Khelliara).

In fact, page 168 of On Hallowed Grounds hints that Mielikki and Loviatar both may have "joined Tyr" to the backwater that is Toril to gain additional followers. In fact, it may have been the godswall that made many deities consider the realms a "backwater" (as in you gotta be desperate to establish a presence there if you are multi-spheric). You do have a good point about gods subsuming other deities though. Perhaps even if a deity comes over in physical form as a manifestation (when the godswall was up), their only way to get an outer planar home was to absorb another god and then subsume their divine domain and merge it with their own. Given that until after the ToT Mielikki didn't have druids at all (only clerics and rangers), she may not have been strong enough to take out another deity nor necessarily have the will to do so if the other deity was doing their job.

So, if we assume that a god in "manifestation bound to Toril" form can get an outer planar divine domain for their Torilian presence by killing and absorbing another deity.... we can maybe explain away the presence of some other deities having divine domains before the ToT who in theory were "new" deities. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if Loviatar "worked with" the orc gods somehow to turn against the Untheric Pantheon and absorbed some of Inanna's portfolios (kind of like how Tiamat was also working with the orc gods). For that matter, this may also have been why the orc deities were physically coming over as well in an avatar type form (maybe they were manifestations being pulled over via some kind of dream magic transport). Similarly, but in another fashion, Talona killing Kiputytto when Kiputytto attacks her in -33 DR in the city of Asram... so Kiputytto seems to have been in the world fighting for godhood. She could be the example of an interloping manifestation that failed. Silvanus similarly may have taken over Ki's divine realm when she died and merged it with his own.


Hmmm, and a sidebar for just a second... just found something in On Hallowed Ground about Oghma. He's known as "the binder" for his ability to know a creature's true name. ALSO, he can bind fiends against their will in a "prison of his own choosing", and it specifically mentions that he chose to do this on the Babylonian Pantheon's (and theoretically Untheric Pantheon's) enemy.... Druaga, a lord of hell. That can be used for some spin.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5276 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  17:54:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In some stuff I dabble in I wrote this:

-9800 DR Urfael’s Pact: The Morvandor (Modern: Yuirwood) is settled by small numbers of green elves fleeing the conflicts of the Crown Wars. They are confronted by isolated remnants of the savage Arthraen who marshal the power of their fey deific patrons against the elves. After the humans are defeated and driven from the woodlands, the green elves call upon the Seldarine to tame the primal fey of the forests. The Seldarine consent to this request but at the price of binding the Yuir elves to the forest for time evermore.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 28 Feb 2018 17:59:54
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4114 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  19:06:10  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now thats interesting. I take it this means the green elves could not leave the forest and helps explain why they never went to the demiplane of the star elvea and why they eventually mingled with the humans rather than just leave like other elves.

I will of course remove the seldarine element and instead have this as a ritual performed by the churches of the seldarine and their high priests. I wonder if this kind of magic hasnt been employed before.

Have elves often bound fey monsters. What is the result of this binding. Are the fey creatures trapped in stasis forever, can they be called upon (like a summoning super spell) can they be communicated with (through the menhirs perhaps).

The seldarine were once fey powers themselves. Was a ritual of binding used on them to bind them to toril and the elves itself and weaker style rituals have been used since.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3191 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  00:01:28  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I don't see why it would be a "mystery" why some Elves stayed behind in the Yuirwood while others went to the Sildeyuir. Someone's gotta stay behind and rep the old hood, especially when the entrance to the new hood is through the old one.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5276 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  01:12:13  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I posted this in my thread a while ago:

To understand the story of the Yuir elves is to understand that the green elves of the Yuirwood were unique. Unique in that their environment and their request of the Seldarine to tame the fey deities active in those remote woodlands meant that the Sy`Tel`Quessir tied themselves to the environs of the Yuirwood for all time. Much like the dark elves of Faerūn were changed into drow by the will of the Seldarine, so too were the Yuir elves altered by their gods, effectively becoming the elven equivalent of dryads, unable to leave the environs of the Yuirwood without sickening and dying.

With that dire limitation however came beneficial fey traits and mastery over their woodland environments (all Yuir elves had minor druidic powers like pass without trace, entangle or animal friendship etc.). Those traits were "in the blood" so to speak but were not passed down to non-green elven children, whether half-elves or full-bloods.

The star elves that gathered in the Yuirwood over time were a mixed lot. They ranged from the noble Lamavarith clan hailing from Siluvanede to the pious Hualarydnym clan of Cormanthyr to the xenophobic Marintraal clan of the Forest of Tethir. These families and others gathered to form their own homeland in a place well-suited to their unique natures. They had an instant affinity with the Yuir green elves, but considered the moon elves resident there to be an unwelcome presence as the Yuirwood resonated as a place with strong ties to the fey that only the native green Yuir elves and the star elves appreciated.

In most star elves, this attitude manifested itself in small ways: cold dealings, exclusion and avoidance. But for star elves such as the militant Ralandraar clan from the Chondalwood, the moon elves were enemies to be defeated and destroyed. The Ralandraar were an ancient clan, having its origins in the fallen realm of Eillūr. Whereas history notes that some green elves of that nation turned traitor and aided the rampant Ilythiiri during the Sable Wars, history does not record that the most assistance given to the Ilythiiri invaders was provided by the Ralandraar star elves. Their actions were in response to the perceived failure of the moon elf elite of Keltormir and Shantel Othreier to render sufficient aid during the Sable Wars and tarred them for all time as suspected collaborators and "dhaeraow".

And so it was that Darandril, clan elder of the Ralandraars, connived to remove the moon elf population of the Yuirwood and continue his clan's age old conflict with the Teu`Tel`Quessir. In doing so, he betrayed three green elf clans that they had befriended, heaping yet further disgrace on his blighted clan. He arranged a secret meeting with the three respective clan elders, slew them treacherously and then used magic to conceal his crime and make it seem that they had been sacrificed by moon elves in an attempt to gain the "blood powers" of the native green elves. The impressionable Yuir green elves, having already assumed some star elf attitudes toward their erstwhile moon elven comrades, reacted as hoped for by the Ralandraars, culminating in the wholesale slaughter of the moon elves who were unable to escape the woodlands.

For a long time afterward, there was peace and harmony in the Yuirwood, for the green elves were malleable and the star elves used their High Magic to subtly and quietly assert a pre-eminent position in the realm they formed and named Yuireshanyaar. As the seasons rolled on however, and the power of humans in the surrounding lands grew ever-greater, the star elves began the construction of Sildeyuir in secret and two centuries later, abandoned the green elves of the Yuirwood to their fate, knowing that those unique green elves could not depart with them. The loss of the Art was keenly felt by the Yuir elves who found themselves eventually defenceless to incursions by drow, humanoids and the biggest "monster" of all, humans.

The Yuirwood saw a short-lived renaissance in the 6th and 7th century Dalereckoning when it experienced an influx of gold elves from Myth Drannor who negotiated a presence in the forest with the dwindling Yuir green elves and even created the mythal city of Myth Tarranvar in the Year of the Oaken Glade (517 DR). This fledgling mythal city was entirely isolated after the fall of Myth Drannor and the destruction of the gate that linked it to Cormanthyr, and finally succumbed to a drow incursion in 778 DR.

When human trailblazers and explorers finally breached the natural defences of the Yuir and plumbed the depths of the Yuirwood in c. 870 DR, they discovered a weak Yuir green elven people, eking out an existence in scattered, family groupings with no ruler and no cities. A century and half later, the number of full-blooded elves had dwindled to less than a hundred and the intermingling of elf and human had created a new Yuir realm of half-elves that the present recognises as the realm of Aglarond. The Yuir green elves had become only whispers among the branches and falling leaves of the forest they had called home for millennia.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4114 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  11:10:31  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cant believe i missed this. I love it and it gives me lots of ideas.

The drow were bound to the underdark in a similar way and im guessing that their breeding with demons and human slaves has diluted the binding effect so that they can venture aboveground with severe penalties and then once fully adjusted they can act as normal.

I like the blood magic stuff. Sounds like the green elves perform sacrifices to call upon their magic powers. This may not be a necessary requirement to use the magic powers and just be a tradition but its good flavour.

Awesome stuff george. Your sandbox is full of surprises and gems.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  17:57:00  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great stuff as allways George, I don't know how I missed this lore first time around. But it confirms my fan idea Star Elves, are the best fot for the core, faery-like Eladrin, as well as Faery Elves of Greyhawk.

About other possible Yuir deities, I think a very good possiblity is Sarula Iliene, the Nixie Queen.

Especially that she is described as a Fey deity, that joined the Seldarine, due to her connection with Rillifane Rallathil.

My guess is Sarula Iliene could be originally connected with Relkath and/or (less probably) Magnar, after these were subsumed/absorbed by Rillifane Rallathil, Sarula Iliene joined the Seldarine, possibly as she a got a big enough cult to survive on hr own.

Sarula Iliene, also has a close relationship Eldath, who may, or may not had merged with her, at least for a time.

Eldath is very probably a Primal Spirit or Archfey that ascended to a goddess - many fan sources, like the wiki, state she is a Primal Spirit, but the only source I found, was the Sarifal article by Brian R. James, but there she was described as a "lake spirit", which I'm not sure if it 100% confirms she is a Primal Sprit. Maybe there were some comments by Brian or other writer which confirmed thar, but I csnnot find them. Still, Primal Spirits are quite similar to Archfey, even sharing pantheons with them (ie Magnar), and the Animal Lords appear to be often ether Primal Spirits, or Archfey.

The thing is, I think Eldath started as a Primal Spirit or Archfey, if one rather not worshipped in Yuir if Sarula Iliene was worshiped there, but we could asume Eldath, if we don't assume Sarula Iliene was part of the Yuir pantheon, or present on Toril.

And Eldath has connection to fey and was worshipped by Elves - in the Down to Earth Divinity article by Ed, were Eldath first appeared, it was mentioned Eldath is commonly worshipped by Nymphs, and it's stated Nymphs believe Eldath is the source of the power to kill those who look upon their naked forms (which I will explore bellow). But she also was there noted specifically a famous elven war hero Telvar, converted to her worship and pacifism.

And about the seemingly out of place connectiom of to the Death, aparently the Rengarth barbarians, and possibly in general Northern pre-Netherl, pre-Illuskan peoples saw Eldath as a goddss of dead - specifically as "Kuliak the Dead Goddess", who "who would not supply Lathander and his allies with fresh water as they prepared for battle on principle", possibly being the goddess there, before the Netherse took over Jergal from either Chult or the Sarrukh liches.

Here is info about it, from the article on Goliaths in Faerun, by Erik Scott de Bie and Tom Costa:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10647

(Which was essentially canonized by Brian R. James and Matt James "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon #170)

About Druaga, me and Markustay, had some theorising on him, that may interest you sleyvas:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=8.72&TOPIC_ID=21971

[EDIT]

Alternatelly, Kuliak could have been a Rengarth/Northern goddess subsumed, or absorbed by Eldath (who came from Yuir? And was originally a sister to Khelliara/Khalreshaar, and became a sister to Mielikki, when Mielikki merged with Khelliara/Khalreshaar. Or maybe Sarula Iliene was Khelliara/Khalreshaar's sister? And Eldath and Mielikki "inherted" their relationship?)

[EDIT2]

About Tyr entering the realms, it was probably 7000 years ago, or more, as according to the 2014 Questions for Ed Greenwood, Tyr was in the Realms for at least 5000/7000 (THO wrote 5000 years, but she also wrote Tyr existed before the Jhaamdathi pantheon).

And if Kezef's capture, was along with other Primordials befre the Age of Thunder (making Tyr present in the Realms for over 36 thousand years) , or during their escape from their imprisonment (meaning he would be on Toril for 30 thousand years), or much latter (ie the description of Kezef's capture, describes "Mystra" being present, but it might have meant Mystryl by "Mystra".).

But it does seem Mielikki might be in the Realms for nearly 5000 or 7000 years, depending how long after Tyr she possibly came to the Realms.

Edited by - Baltas on 10 Mar 2018 04:24:42
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000