| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 16:49:13
|
Any of you know how many would survive if a unit of 80 Knights of Samular on foot would charge 10 Red Wizards at 300m distance ?
Thanks for your wisdom
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 17:39:36
|
| Yes, I know every one of the Knights of Samular would die a horrifying death because of plot reasons in my head. Now, if it were 299m distance, the story might change. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
 |
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 17:43:58
|
There is no way to answer your question. There are too many variables. The levels of both the Wizards and Knights are a factor. Also the foot rush depends on the equipment and ability of the troops on the Knights side. There depends on what spells the Wizards have available to choose from.
Add some, if not all on both sides might have magic equipment to change their abilities.
Then there is the random factor of hits, miss, saves, fumbles and so on determined by dice. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 18:46:47
|
| Kentinal has the right of it -- there are simply too many variables to even make a reasonable guess. And like any X versus Y scenario, changing any one variable could skew the results dramatically. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 21:13:07
|
I know exactly how many would survive if it were my Scenario.
What I want to know is how wil it turn out in yours |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 11 Oct 2017 21:13:45 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 05:53:03
|
The Knights are fanatical, righteous, square-chinned, and noble paradigms of their faith. They're also grizzled veterans, battle-scarred, used to hard justice, wary of dirty tricks and tactics, and of deceits and treacheries, and of ignoble adversaries who don't fight fair. They're walking tanks, turtled up with a lot of heavy metal, fortified with all the bonuses and prayers their god and their church can offer.
300 yards is just too close. No competent Red Wizard would ever engage so many warriors at such limited distance, especially never with nine other Red Wizards in his blind spot!
But 300 yards is distant enough to cast teleport and pick a different distance to engage. With a different deployment involving different numbers. At a different time. In an entirely different mode of battle.
Wizards don't think in paltry terms involving terrain and formations and weapons and tactics. They have too many options for avoiding ugly melee and can instead fight (with methods advantageous to them, disadvantageous to their targets) in a time and place of their own choosing. They'd snipe supply lines, slay horses, burn temples, burn villages, burn crops, poison rations, poison livestock, poison wells, slay whole populations of Tyr's faithful, opportunistically pick off Tyr's champions one at a time, use conjured or undead forces to keep up the pressure, constantly keep hitting hard and hitting home, where it hurts the most. Spread the battlefield across a wide enough area and a formation of 80 Knights must defend by dispersing into smaller groups or must accept utterly unacceptable losses. Each Red Wizard could inflict massive injury to Tyr's scattered champions (and to Tyr's faithful, and to basically any random innocents a true paladin would be compelled to protect) across half a continent in a single afternoon, then teleport home, rest up and memorize spells, recast his buffs, summon another batch of disposable minions, do some scrying, and enjoy his slave-cooked dinner while planning the next day's barrage.
The Reds would win through attrition and guerilla warfare alone, if nothing else. The Knights should be wise enough to avoid picking fights they can't win. Pyrrhic victories and scorched earth are not viable options for paladin orders, not at the cost of so many lives. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Oct 2017 11:27:36 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 12:46:24
|
They don't need to teleport... Just use fly.
When I was playing in the Pathfinder/Iron Kingdoms crossover with my group, my gun mage would use fly and improved invisibility for fights, if at all possible. Before he had those options, he would routinely get mauled in combat, dropping below 0 hp on a couple of occasions. Once he had those spells, if he had time to use them, he didn't get injured in combat.
I'd have my guy fly up maybe 30 feet, shoot a bad guy, move wherever looked good at that moment, and then repeat the process. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 13:23:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They don't need to teleport... Just use fly.
When I was playing in the Pathfinder/Iron Kingdoms crossover with my group, my gun mage would use fly and improved invisibility for fights, if at all possible. Before he had those options, he would routinely get mauled in combat, dropping below 0 hp on a couple of occasions. Once he had those spells, if he had time to use them, he didn't get injured in combat.
I'd have my guy fly up maybe 30 feet, shoot a bad guy, move wherever looked good at that moment, and then repeat the process.
Yep, this was always my favored strategy in 2nd edition. I called it "can't find me, can't kill me". If you threw in certain long term anti-divination spells to prevent spells that see invisibility, etc... it makes it even more effective. Throw in some spells like sound bubble or a spell that removes the need to use verbal components, and it makes it that much harder. Throw on a spell to remove your scent in certain situations and its that much better.
Another favored combat method was to setup some triggered sequence to create a programmed illusion, a rope trick, and a darkness spell. Go into the rope trick, meanwhile the programmed illusion spends several rounds confusing the enemy (and they hurl blasts at the darkness futilely). You come out 3 or 4 rounds later, buffed with several spells (again, some cast rapidly via sequencing effects), including flight and improved invisibility, and just laying waste on the battlefield. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Oct 2017 13:28:44 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 13:33:53
|
It's only eight-to-one odds. Paladins have limited spell progression and limited inventory of magical items (severely limited, considering most of these items must be various weapons and armors). And while they're not Lawful Stupid they are confined by moral and ethical codes (and sworn oaths to their deity) so their overall options are more limited and more predictable.
Red Wizards have no such limitations. All the magic they can carry. Including, sometimes, unique and deadly and horrible magics no survivor has ever witnessed. And they can do anything they like without restriction, indeed they're "trained" to think in ambitious, calculating, exploitive, manipulative ways, it's how they advanced into and held their positions. Their main drawback is that they do not (and can not) trust each other, not without some sort of very strong motivation or dire need, which hinders their effectiveness as a group but doesn't really mean they'll turn on each other (since they're each constantly suspicious and vigilant of perceived weaknesses, lol). |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 22:25:40
|
300m in full battle gear... I reckon thats a good minute of spells they are going to be absorbing (and this is looking at it taking them about 20 seconds to cover 100m at best).
Taking no variables into account, I think you'd have more survivors with an infantry charge against case loaded cannon.... |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 22:57:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
300m in full battle gear... I reckon thats a good minute of spells they are going to be absorbing (and this is looking at it taking them about 20 seconds to cover 100m at best).
Taking no variables into account, I think you'd have more survivors with an infantry charge against case loaded cannon....
Actually, you are taking variables into account: You're assuming the Red Wizards are at least 5th level or higher, to have the good crowd control spells; you're assuming they each have a full complement of battle spells or magical items at the ready; you're assuming the Knights are charging in one big group instead of being grouped into different elements and attacking in waves or from multiple directions; you're assuming that the Red Wizards are able to freely cast whatever spells they want (no incoming arrows or hazardous conditions to impair them); you're assuming the Knights have no magical protection or magic goodies to give them an edge; and you're assuming that the Red Wizards are aware of the Knights and cognizant of the potential threat.
Changing any one of those things changes the outcome. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Oct 2017 22:58:13 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2017 : 07:26:16
|
A lot of assumptions. Reds are too intelligent to risk putting themselves one minute away from a horde of Knights, if they found themselves in that position they'd use magics (teleport, fly, whatever) to reposition things to their advantage.
I think it's safe to assume the two groups don't just stumble onto each other at 300 yards. They're facing off for battle, fully prepared, they've precast their buffs, they've prayed, they've got their potions and scrolls and sharpened blades handy. But this isn't Red Wizard style. Their style is normally being invisible, standing behind a magical barrier (forcewall, firewall, etc), watching or directing whatever hasted and stoneskinned and protected from missiles/etc monsters, elementals, fiends, undead, or illusions they've summoned up to keep the enemy occupied. At best, while paladins might have a ton of class bonuses and magical protections which almost assure success on their saves, alongside their warrior-grade hit points, they could expect to take "only half-damage" from over 100HD worth of fireballs or lightning while being slowed and impeded (and threatened) by standing in a choking cloud or hallucinatory/demi-shadow terrain or clinging webs or grasping tentacles or whatever. It's a no-win for the Knights because the Reds would not get themselves caught in such a fight unless they controlled the odds. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2017 : 20:55:17
|
| What is the background? A mad god dragging them to a pocket plane for fun, and decides to watch them fight, aka what Mister Mxyzptlk or The Beyonder from Marvel Comics could do with superheroes? If not, I'd assume even paladins got some idea about how to not get themselves killed. Nobody want to just die randomly "in glory" for no good at all; getting splattered by Red wizards without really "doing" anything, is a waste. |
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 10:51:51
|
Ooops ... You're right my question was far too imprecise !
So here is what I'm trying to know :
I'm working on a full Faerun conversion of Medieval 2 Total war. I'm trying to recreate the D&D 3.5 spells effects in the video game and balancing the power of spells, so that they are not too weak nor too powerful !
So my question might look silly in terms of paper RPG as I know that 10 Red Wiz would never ally to go to war, but for the game I'm using, I don't have much choice.
So I would like your opinion, just as an average, to know how many guys would survive if lets say a unit of 10 level 17 Red Wiz need to confront a unit of 80 level 17 Knights of Samular.
It could be Knights of Samular or any other Elite unit, like Knights in Silver for example or whatever top warriors unit of any nation on Faerun !
They are all brand fresh and ready for action, with all their equipment ! I just need, as I said, an average estimation. Would it be a total carnage, with all the Knights dying on the first shot, or would they be able to survive some time ? Or would they have time to get to the mages and crush them all ? I mean, level 17 Knights of Samular are not just a band of naked peasants !
Then I have to balance spells for level 5 wizards and level 11 wizards. |
Edited by - Titus le Chmakus on 16 Oct 2017 10:56:53 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 11:42:58
|
Total War and D&D3.5E are different kinds of simulations. You define the rules, the mechanics, the "physics", the parameters, the stats.
I've seen some blatantly unrealistic Total War runs. 100 Jedi vs 100,000 Spartans, 50 US Marines vs 50,000 Civil War Soldiers, etc, where the "epic" (favoured, privileged) units overwhelmingly slaughtered every opponent without suffering any losses. Where the stats and rules are completely arbitrary and biased and of course the battle results play out pretty much exactly how the simulation programmer expected/wanted things to happen.
If you change the rules and the numbers then you don't get an "accurate simulation", you only get a fierce Hollywood-style enactment with a foregone outcome.
If you don't change the rules then, in this instance, you abide strictly by D&D3.5E rules, where the fact of the matter is the wizards basically have a massive advantage in mobility, range, and area-effect damage, while the knights can soak up a lot of damage and one-hit any wizard within melee range ... so you're really just asking what happens first: the wizards run out of spells or the knights run out of hit points? And even a 5th level wizard can lean things in his favour by using spells like fly to stay out of reach for a duration while also using multi-shot spells (like Melf's minute meteors) to sustain a long-range barrage.
The final determinant in a D&D game is that any wizard worth his robes *always* has an exit option. One last spell, one last contingency, one last fallback, he's meat if he's caught in melee vs hard warriors and he knows it. Total War always fights to death to the last man with no exceptions, and this is simply not the same kind of game that the D&D rules are designed for.
You've already narrowed a level range. But what about magic items? A paladin can only carry ten, a fighter can carry many, but both are limited in the types of magic stuff they can actually use, potions, weapons and armors, gauntlets, boots, etc. A wizard can carry as many as he likes (at least up to the limits supported by his squeaky pencil-necked frame) and use all manner of wands or rods or staffs or scrolls to multiply his "spells" by a huge margin. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Oct 2017 12:07:43 |
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 12:21:31
|
You are totally right and I know about this ! The thing is that I took this example as it is the easiest for me to code the spells power BUT, in any case, there will never be this sort of confrontation, even in a Total War game !
Of course it is impossible to give the soldiers any magic equipment, but I do take it into count for the stats, considering that the elite units have +4 equipment and +5 in their primary modifyer (warriors +5 STR, Wiz +5 INT), to make it a bit more D&D, even if it does not exactly give the same rules.
And even the lore is not possible to be respected in its strict way but we try to give a starting context and let the player do Total War on Faerun. A bit like Lord of the Ring's adaptation in Third Age Total War. But there is no magic in Lords of the Ring ;-)
So that is why I was asking this. Again, I don't want magic to be OP, as it is in the real D&D3.5 rules. Mages are not the ultimate class. You can play a warrior and still be very dangerous to anyone, if played well ! But as I cannot get this in that kind of game, I must simulate it with pure game stats !
They made a Warhammer mod for Medieval 2 in which mages can oneshot everybody ! I'm far away from it ! |
Edited by - Titus le Chmakus on 16 Oct 2017 12:23:22 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 13:30:47
|
Hmmm, I think a better way to explain my point is this:
You can configure and tweak the unit stats and behaviours any way you like. Even make them "exactly" balanced so that the outcome can go either way each time you run a battle.
But if you attempt to model the things as they are described in D&D3.5E rules then the outcome strongly favours the wizards. Not very entertaining when they win by a decisive margin (almost) every single time.
You can abstract bonuses from magical weapons/armor/etc into better stats, you can add in stat or AI boosts to represent buffing spells/effects, you can abstract wands and scrolls into more firepower or "ammo", etc. Maybe a rocket launcher with a customized payload is a reasonable substitute for a fireball, etc.
But it's still really a question of how "accurately" you want things to play out in D&D3.5E terms. An even matchup is more unpredictable and more entertaining than one with a fated outcome. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Oct 2017 13:35:41 |
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 14:17:05
|
Yeah that applies in a 1vs1, but is it still valid in a 10vs80 ?
And are you certain that 80 level 17 Knights in Silver would be crushed by 10 level 5 Wizards ? |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 18:07:38
|
A 5th level wizard has 6+4d6 hit points plus Con bonus (+0 or +1 seems fair), so ~20 to ~25 hit points average and ~40 hit points maximum extreme.
A 17th level paladin has 10+16d10 hit points plus Con bonus (+1 to +3 seems fair), so ~115 to ~149 hit points average and ~238 hit points maximum extreme.
I'm willing to assume these are Knights of Samular and Red Wizards of Thay, anyone "below average" just isn't good enough to be on this battlefield.
In melee, each knight has 2 or 3 attacks per round which probably do at least ~10 to ~14 damage each, basically enough total damage to drop one wizard per round, plus wizards in melee are severely impeded in their spellcasting. Wizards are not *completely* worthless in melee - and they can even augment their melee attack/damage/effects quite dangerously with a few spells - but they certainly can't go toe-to-toe vs a level 17 paladin, let alone vs eight level 17 paladins.
The most basic option for Red Wizards (with their grand love of evocations and of burning people) would be volleys of ten 5th-level fireballs. Cast at up to 700 foot range, targets a 20 foot radius sphere, 50d6 total damage, ~175 average damage with failed Save or ~88 average damage with successful Save (and it's fair to assume most but not quite all of the paladins will succeed at their Saves, they have lots of bonuses and prayers and blessings and magical gear and stuff). A 20-foot radius circle could contain ~65 targets spaced 5 feet apart from each other. Movement speed per tactical round for humans is about 60 feet unarmored/unencumbered (240 feet at full run), or about 45 feet in light armor (180 feet at full run), or about 30 feet in medium/heavy armor (90 feet at full run); the wizards could cast at least 3 full volleys (a total of 30 fireballs, 2-3 fireballs covering each target) before their enemy closes into melee (on round four at the earliest). They'd exhaust their memorized third level spells, but they may also carry at least some scrolls and wands (they're "all brand fresh and ready for action, with all their equipment").
The knights would obviously disperse if their tight formation gets smashed by area effect spells, so it's reasonable to assume maybe half of them escape the radius of each subsequent blast. But even so it doesn't seem enough for them to escape total incineration. Maybe a few scattered men at the fringes could survive ... and maybe they'd get picked off by other (single-target) spells ... or maybe they'd get close enough to chop wizard meat. Hard to actually determine proper numbers for such stuff without actually playing things out in D&D or Total War.
Knights could fire longbows at 150-feet (as much as 160 shots, 1d8 damage plus Dex bonus each, maybe ~72 to ~104 total damage at each wizard, if they all hit). The wizards are "unarmored" but smart wizards have things like armor, shield, protection vs missiles, wind wall, displacement, blur, mirror image, maybe stoneskin - and protective magical items like bracers, robes, rings - so smart paladins would know arrow volleys are a bit of a gamble and generally not too useful (especially at long range), they would probably prefer to quickly charge into melee instead of just hanging out another round at fireball range.
But that's just the most obvious tactic. Dispel magic, dimension door (up to 600 foot distance), fly, levitate, blink, invisibility, expeditious retreat, lightning bolt, flaming sphere, etc ... as long as a wizard can control distance (stay out of melee) he can also keep casting area effect damage. Clever use of movement spells should at least allow one or two more full spell volleys. If nothing else, a wizard is typically "unencumbered" while a knight is typically armored, so a running battle could favour the wizards until their stamina or their memorized spells fail them. (But I suppose if things got this desperate/silly then the knights would start dropping their armor to maintain the chase.)
Starting off 900 feet (300 yards) apart gives the wizards a few rounds to instead summon up monsters and/or place (visible or invisible, real or illusionary) barriers and problems (like grease, entanglement, grasping tentacles, explosive stones, etc) on the terrain.
Fireballs vs a charging horde and the ensuing melee carnage are easy enough to simulate in Total War, the many other (basic) spells and options and tactics which would be realistic for high-level paladins and competent wizards are not.
It would still be interesting to see what sort of balance and "realism" you achieve. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Oct 2017 18:51:07 |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2017 : 22:47:49
|
17th level paladins have a great deal of foils granted by their spells and abilities so I think they would easily wipe a 5th level wizard squad who are determined to engage.
The holy swords paladins wield grant continuous protection vs evil recastable as a free action and thusly prevents summoned creatures from attacking the paladins during their charge, while expertise with their buffed swords are accurate enough to cleave through a great deal of magical protection that grants an AC bonus to a red wizard. Resist energy:fire nearly nullifies any attempts at scorching the paladins, who could be linked through shield other to grant longevity to the unit as a whole (by sharing the loss of hp across the tougher or more fortunate paladins).
After the paladins have advanced to within 270 ft they can start moving while casting dispel magic on incoming spells, and healing any damaging spells that get through. Once they are in touch range, a carefully worded mark of justice could render the wizards unable to speak after the next spell they cast that breaks the law.
Several members of such an elite squadron (who's combined wealth probably could buy a small kingdom and is supported by a great alliance) could be in possesion of lavender and green Ioun stone, which absorbs 50 levels of incoming spells of 8th level or lower.
A proper battle trained squadron of a paladin order in a full charge is a powerful force capable of breaking most other formations that they come into contact with. On celestial horseback they become even more dangerous for a unit of battlemages, but they can only achieve so much against truly scary battlefield control spells that some of the higher level wizards get acces to. Against a 17th level paladin squadron you need at least access to 5th level spells, such as wall of force, to completely deny them melee; so a red wizard squad with scrolls or a single 11th level caster could completely turn the tide again in favor of the Zulkirs of Thay. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 01:40:31
|
Paladins with holy swords capable of casting/sustaining a radius of dispel magic and protection from evil, 5th level mark of justice spells, 4th level resist energy spells ... perhaps also ioun stones. This is all reasonable stuff for a little army of these Knights, they would likely have at least a handful of priests and potent magical items in their number, and they would certainly leverage all of their advantages in their tactics.
And maybe these advantages are needed to balance the encounter. But I'd think "balancing" it in D&D3.5E terms would mean giving the opposition potent tools of their own (tailored to combat this specific sort of opponent/encounter). So the list of spell scrolls and magical items could go on and on for the wizards. Indeed, in a more "realistic" encounter the Knights would have a few wizard allies and the Reds would have some mercenary/slave bodyguards, and both sides would possess detailed inventories of tools and tactics outside their character sheets, blurring things together.
I did choose to ignore mounts because they're not part of Total War. Seems a little unfair to take away something so significant to a cavalry-based Knight of Samular. But then again it also seems a little unfair to take away a Zulkir from a team of Red Wizards or an archmage leader from a team of mageling apprentices, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2017 01:44:59 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 01:41:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus
Yeah that applies in a 1vs1, but is it still valid in a 10vs80 ?
And are you certain that 80 level 17 Knights in Silver would be crushed by 10 level 5 Wizards ?
If you understand this concept, then why in the Barrens of Doom and Despair did you post the original question as you did..... it was blatantly an unanswerable question because you included no detail.... and by detail to answer the question, I would expect full on-detail, not just "here's their levels". Which version of the D&D game for instance? What spells and magic items do they have available? Do the two groups know about one another? Are they spread out or grouped together? What's the terrain like? Was it that you just weren't thinking, or was there some other reason you asked the question as you did? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 01:43:21
|
He wants to stage a battle "simulation" between 80 Knights and 10 Reds in Total War.
I can't guess why the question was asked, though. Stage the battle, survey the battlefield, count the bodies, results speak for themselves. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2017 01:43:53 |
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 08:38:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus
Yeah that applies in a 1vs1, but is it still valid in a 10vs80 ?
And are you certain that 80 level 17 Knights in Silver would be crushed by 10 level 5 Wizards ?
If you understand this concept, then why in the Barrens of Doom and Despair did you post the original question as you did..... it was blatantly an unanswerable question because you included no detail.... and by detail to answer the question, I would expect full on-detail, not just "here's their levels". Which version of the D&D game for instance? What spells and magic items do they have available? Do the two groups know about one another? Are they spread out or grouped together? What's the terrain like? Was it that you just weren't thinking, or was there some other reason you asked the question as you did?
Yeah sorry guys, I am maybe too much into my Total War game as I haven't played D&D for a while (I lost my Game Master) ... It is sure that all what you mentionned has to be taken into count ! But I was just simulating the battle on a flat field as I need to tweak the spells damage value to be something credible in Total War.
So as you said, the real D&D 3.5 rules cannot be strictly respected here. What I want to know is how many damages to I have to assign to the wizards spells to make it credible ? I have 3 different wizards + some special ones (Red wiz, War wiz, Hathrans...).
I have some low level mages (like level 5), some middle level (level 11) and some high level ones (level 17), as I want them to be able to cast level 3, 6 and 9 spells. To make it fun, I have planed Fireball, Freezzing Sphere and Meteor Swarm.
So I was questionning about the pure damages the spells could deal as not all the other units are yet implemented in the game. But of course in the end, the Thayans will have their slaves & knights along with the Red wiz, the Waterdhavians will have their Lleilon lancers, Greycloak archers & Neverwinter nines with them (we have put WD and Neverwinter in the same faction)... So it will be full armies going to battle !
But if I don't have coherent values for spells, wizards will be eighther OP or useless, which is pretty shameful as they are a very important aspect of Faerun ! I don't want to do like int the Warhammer mod they made where Mages are ultimate and can oneshot everybody on the battlefield in a single spell, because this is not how I see the D&D Wizards.
Now sleyvas, to answer your precise questions:
-Which version of the D&D game for instance? 3.5
-What spells and magic items do they have available? As I said, Fireball for level 5 wiz, freezing sphere for level 11 and meteor swarm for level 17. They do not have any special magic items as I have made them already in the stats to increase attack/defense/resilience. But this has to be taken into count for the damages delt ! It will somehow reduce the damages of spells because we will consider that the targets have some magical equipment that could reduce the damages, whatever the equipment is ! But it must remain logical ! A level 5 target won't have a ring of resistance to fire 20 !
-Do the two groups know about one another? Of course ! Not all their darkest secrets, but yeah they won't be unknown one to another !
-Are they spread out or grouped together? Grouped toghether, the spread out is a functionnality allowed to the player, so it is his problem to manage !
-What's the terrain like? For the test it is a flat pasture ... But all the possible terrains will be ingame. But this is part of the strategies the players will have to take into count !
-Was it that you just weren't thinking, or was there some other reason you asked the question as you did? As I said, I was too much into my game and not considering your expertise. I was also thinking that nobody would answer, so pretty useless to write so many precisions !
Anyway thanks for your answers ! |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 09:43:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus
-What's the terrain like? For the test it is a flat pasture ... But all the possible terrains will be ingame. But this is part of the strategies the players will have to take into count !
...and what the terrain looks like.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 09:59:18
|
| Heu ? I don't get your question ... The terrain looks like every pasture ... Green |
|
|
|
Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2017 : 20:12:29
|
Have is understood correct: You want to program into some sort of simulation software, a scenario where 80 footmen with sword and shield goes against 10 super powerful archers skinned as wizards? And want to simulate all spellcasting for Red Wizards as missile fire with level based spells reskinned as damage dealing archery effects?
|
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 08:03:49
|
Well not exactly ! Some of what you say is correct but not all ! It won't be archery effects as I can tweak the zone to try to model the effects of spells like Fireball, which has a bigger impact than just a single arrow !
What you said seems very restrictiv, but that is all the game engine allows us to do ... Being RPG players and game masters here, it might look like rubish to you, but for all the Faerun/Total War fans, what we are trying to achieve will be very fun as there are very few games, if not even any, where all Faerun has been mapped and factions playable. All we want to do is being as accurate lorewise that it is possible with the game engine. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?476733-Faer%FBn-Forgotten-Realms-TW-Updated-17-05-2014-first-units-for-AMN-(page-25)/
And as magic is a major aspect of Faerun, it has to be in the game, but as the RPG aspect is very limited, all we can do is use Wizards as war machines ! So I don't know yet if they will be used as archers or siege engines ! But I need your advice to know what power I have to give to these guys ! I have never played any proper war in paper D&D as large scale battles are pretty hard to manage for a single GM with only 2 or 3 players ...
|
|
|
|
Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 12:01:47
|
| I would suggest using mages as long ranged unit (like siege engines) and knights as heavy melee units. Anything closer will necessary draw a lot of questions as you can see above. You do not have tools for closer transcription into the game. They should be balanced on the same power level (take inspiration in-game form different units of those types). For high level contest I would suggest outcome of about quarter of knights making it to the mages if attacked the whole time so both units will basically annihilate each other if directed against each other. |
|
|
|
Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2017 : 13:39:57
|
| Thanks for your estimations ! Helps a lot. But according to what you said, they won't anihilate each other ... As when the quarter remaining soldiers will get into melee with the mages, none of them will survive ! So in the end, the quarter soldiers will ;-) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 09:00:48
|
All levels being equal, then no matter what (even accounting for the 'phantom' magic items) you're at 8:1 odds. With no surprise, cover, uphill charges, etc, etc, and all things being equal character-wise, I would say half the knights make it to the Red Wizards to lay waste to them (because even though the Red Wizards may be high enough level for area spells, the knights will be the same level and have counter-measures, like charging in a VERY loose formation.
I don't know how Total War works, but I've played other mass-combat fantasy games, and level is a huge factor, which is why I am just assuming the 'playing field' is dead even in that regard. And yes, most mass combat games still have leveling, usually in the form of 'troop condition'. You'll have things like: Green, 'Blooded', average, exceptional, veteran, and maybe 'crack troops', which will add multipliers to the combat factors.
So unless those wizards use there final piece of magic (before entering melee) to escape the battlefield, they are going to get riggity-wrecked. It will by a pyrrhic victory for the knights, however.
IMO, of course. I've been around since before video games - I even designed a couple of those cardboard-counter games back in the day. Overwhelming odds will always carry the day unless you have very high 'rate of fire'. You're positions get overrun - just look at the German's Blitzkrieg warfare. Even an enemy with a nuke isn't going to hurt you if he can't get it off the ground. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Wizards power
