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Originally posted by Gustaveren

you could always establish some portals between Faerun and returned returned Abir

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

you could always establish some portals between Faerun and returned returned Abir

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Indeed. The Realms has long been known as the world with portals and gateways to lost and forgotten "worlds" elsewhere. It's built into the basic concept of the FORGOTTEN REALMS -- a setting that contains "forgotten" portals to Earth and the like.

There's no reason why the Realms still can't contain portals between the any region on Toril and Returned Abeir -- if and when the transposition of these locations occurs again.

Or, perhaps, instead run them like the coterminous and/or co-existent dynamics of the 3e planar framework -- where other planes would come to briefly connect with the Material Plane at specific points of planar instability.

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Originally posted by Sylrae

That would be alright.

Personally I want to see the Dragon-kin (which weren't in 4e because of the similarity to 4e's dragonborn) make a return, possibly with the cult of the dragon (which received basically no coverage in 4e whatsoever).

I found it really obnoxious that Forgotten Realms had these really cool dragon people already, and when 4e came out they decided to just pretend they never existed because they were different than the dragonborn (being 12 feet tall, having wings, and not being mammals-but humanoid dragons).

I also miss the various half-dragons; and I really liked the Cult of the Dragon. Their noninclusion was one of the things I detested about 4e Forgotten Realms.

I never really cared for the dragonborn; mostly because I already thought the "dragon people" niche was well filled by the already existing dragon people; and that the dragonborn did a much less impressive job of it.

If they have both, instead of ditching what I liked in exchange for what's newer, I wouldn't object to the portals to returned abeir (which could become a demiplane or something, sortof like Ravenloft). I also wouldn't object to merging it into Maztica.

I just want to see dragon-kin, half dragons, aasimar, tieflings, the cult of the dragon, the zhentarim, the red wizards of thay, halruaa, waterdeep, pantheons, demons, devils, daemons, and eladrin return to the awesomeness they were before 4e. A return to either the 3e or 3e cosmology wouldn't hurt either.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
You and I disagree on a lot of matters, it seems.

I love the dragonborn. Would probably rank them...fourth on my list of favorite pc races, after half orcs, tieflings(4e style), and devas(again, 4e style), but before goliaths.

And I like them specifically because they aren't twelve feet tall, they don't have wings(normally, they can get them), they aren't immune to breath weapons. They're big, they're tough, but they aren't overpowered. I don't have to deal with players wanting their half dragon munchkin being the biggest badass on the block; I can say no, you want to be a dragon like character, here, play one of these guys.

I like their culture, the subtle arabic influences. I like the militaristic slant they have without it really defining them, I like that they aren't dumb muscle. I liked the realms-specific touch of them being former slaves who've risen up against their masters and how they hate dragons and don't necessarily believe in gods, those were nice touches, I thought.

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Originally posted by Sylrae

That would be alright.

Personally I want to see the Dragon-kin (which weren't in 4e because of the similarity to 4e's dragonborn) make a return, possibly with the cult of the dragon (which received basically no coverage in 4e whatsoever).

I found it really obnoxious that Forgotten Realms had these really cool dragon people already, and when 4e came out they decided to just pretend they never existed because they were different than the dragonborn (being 12 feet tall, having wings, and not being mammals-but humanoid dragons).

I also miss the various half-dragons; and I really liked the Cult of the Dragon. Their noninclusion was one of the things I detested about 4e Forgotten Realms.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Cult was mentioned in the FRCG; it was noted that they had particular success in recruiting dragonborn. I remember this for two reasons: I found it unlikely that the Cult was still going strong after the events of the Rogue Dragon trilogy, and I also found it unlikely that a group based on worshipping dragons would be able to recruit members of a race that hates dragons.

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Originally posted by Sylrae

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
You and I disagree on a lot of matters, it seems.

I love the dragonborn. Would probably rank them...fourth on my list of favorite pc races, after half orcs, tieflings(4e style), and devas(again, 4e style), but before goliaths.

And I like them specifically because they aren't twelve feet tall, they don't have wings(normally, they can get them), they aren't immune to breath weapons. They're big, they're tough, but they aren't overpowered. I don't have to deal with players wanting their half dragon munchkin being the biggest badass on the block; I can say no, you want to be a dragon like character, here, play one of these guys.

I like their culture, the subtle arabic influences. I like the militaristic slant they have without it really defining them, I like that they aren't dumb muscle. I liked the realms-specific touch of them being former slaves who've risen up against their masters and how they hate dragons and don't necessarily believe in gods, those were nice touches, I thought.

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Yeah. We definitely disagree. My favorite PC races include none of those. Most of those are pretty low on my list of preferences.

My favorite things I have seen characters of (varying power levels, in descending order, though many - but not all- *Could* be made balanced playable races easily enough.)
Githyanki, Drow, Kobolds, Tieflings (Pathfinder Style, with several sub-varieties based on lineage), Moon Elves, Wood Elves, Wild Elves, Sun Elves, Rock Gnomes, Fire Genasi 3e, Half-Dragons, Earth Genasi 3e, (All Dwarves), Water Genasi 3e, Air Genasi 3e, Orcs, Lizardfolk, Hobgoblins, Half-Elves, Humans, Satyrs, Dryads, Centaurs, Driders, Pseudodragons, Ibixians, Crinti, Awakened Animals...

For me Dragonborn are way at the bottom with Halflings and Eladrin 4e. (things I'm inclined to avoid playing, but that I could (other than Eladrin, unless I changed the name and backstory) *Maybe* find a use for as NPCs.)

Likewise, I like to use the 3e Eladrin (which were a category of celestials), which in Pathfinder got renamed to Agathions (Stupid rename, but they were trying to avoid conflict with 4e's "Almost an elf" race with the stolen name). I also found it rather contrived that all the various divided sub varieties of elf in faerun would stop thinking of themselves of the race they were for centuries and consider themselves Eladrin instead, in what is for them like 10 years to a human. Additionally if you liked the divide of Wild/Wood Elves (instead of using the term Green Elves to describe two vastly different wilderness based elves with some shared lineage), the 4e elves are what happens when you interbreed a wild elves (dont exist in 4e) with Eladrin - which makes no sense, unless you just ignore previous books. Additionally, if you only use "green elves" from 2e, they're mostly the feral variety - the ones that don't exist in 4e.

If they wanted to introduce teleporting fey that look like elves I could deal with that; but not at the expense of eladrin and elves, and with all sorts of irrational ramifications.

As for the Dragonkin, I like them and the Cult of the Dragon as antagonists. Probably my third favorite set of antagonists, after devils, and the drow.

However, If they used racial levels like Monte Cooks d20 RPG or the Warcraft d20 RPG instead of level adjusts, Dragonkin and Minotaurs (another favorite that is a large creature) could be playable as well; and I find the Cult of the dragon backstory far more compelling than the dragonborn one, though the backstory for the dragonborn culture isn't terrible - they just come across to me as watered down dragonkin, and watered down lizardfolk, oversexualized (huge boobs) and made into lizard-mammals.

All-in-all, I'm not a fan of those things - largely because they replaced things I quite enjoyed (and therefore the things I enjoyed were not in 4e).

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Fair enough, it's something I can understand.

Just, as someone who does honestly enjoy and prefer the 4e versions of most races, I don't want to see them replaced when the new edition rolls around.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Ah, what's in a name. I can live with that change.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I would strongly support an Abeir sourcebook.

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Originally posted by Sylrae


Likewise, I like to use the 3e Eladrin (which were a category of celestials), which in Pathfinder got renamed to Agathions (Stupid rename, but they were trying to avoid conflict with 4e's "Almost an elf" race with the stolen name). I also found it rather contrived that all the various divided sub varieties of elf in faerun would stop thinking of themselves of the race they were for centuries and consider themselves Eladrin instead, in what is for them like 10 years to a human. Additionally if you liked the divide of Wild/Wood Elves (instead of using the term Green Elves to describe two vastly different wilderness based elves with some shared lineage), the 4e elves are what happens when you interbreed a wild elves (dont exist in 4e) with Eladrin - which makes no sense, unless you just ignore previous books. Additionally, if you only use "green elves" from 2e, they're mostly the feral variety - the ones that don't exist in 4e.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Sylrae

That would be alright.

Personally I want to see the Dragon-kin (which weren't in 4e because of the similarity to 4e's dragonborn) make a return, possibly with the cult of the dragon (which received basically no coverage in 4e whatsoever).

I found it really obnoxious that Forgotten Realms had these really cool dragon people already, and when 4e came out they decided to just pretend they never existed because they were different than the dragonborn (being 12 feet tall, having wings, and not being mammals-but humanoid dragons).

I also miss the various half-dragons; and I really liked the Cult of the Dragon. Their noninclusion was one of the things I detested about 4e Forgotten Realms.

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The Cult was mentioned in the FRCG; it was noted that they had particular success in recruiting dragonborn. I remember this for two reasons: I found it unlikely that the Cult was still going strong after the events of the Rogue Dragon trilogy, and I also found it unlikely that a group based on worshipping dragons would be able to recruit members of a race that hates dragons.

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Originally posted by Lord Bane

Markus, moving the dragonborn into the Lost Vale would get them butting heads with the Shades, they own that Vale now and bad boy for liking an elemental empire in Calimshan!

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Sylrae


Likewise, I like to use the 3e Eladrin (which were a category of celestials), which in Pathfinder got renamed to Agathions (Stupid rename, but they were trying to avoid conflict with 4e's "Almost an elf" race with the stolen name). I also found it rather contrived that all the various divided sub varieties of elf in faerun would stop thinking of themselves of the race they were for centuries and consider themselves Eladrin instead, in what is for them like 10 years to a human. Additionally if you liked the divide of Wild/Wood Elves (instead of using the term Green Elves to describe two vastly different wilderness based elves with some shared lineage), the 4e elves are what happens when you interbreed a wild elves (dont exist in 4e) with Eladrin - which makes no sense, unless you just ignore previous books. Additionally, if you only use "green elves" from 2e, they're mostly the feral variety - the ones that don't exist in 4e.

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Not wanting to get involved with the argument here, but just this statement kind of reminded me of how over the years in our own world the Politically Correct name for People of Color has changed with each generation it seems.... the "word that I shall not name", black, colored american, people of color, African-American, etc...

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Originally posted by Sylrae

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Sylrae


Likewise, I like to use the 3e Eladrin (which were a category of celestials), which in Pathfinder got renamed to Agathions (Stupid rename, but they were trying to avoid conflict with 4e's "Almost an elf" race with the stolen name). I also found it rather contrived that all the various divided sub varieties of elf in faerun would stop thinking of themselves of the race they were for centuries and consider themselves Eladrin instead, in what is for them like 10 years to a human. Additionally if you liked the divide of Wild/Wood Elves (instead of using the term Green Elves to describe two vastly different wilderness based elves with some shared lineage), the 4e elves are what happens when you interbreed a wild elves (dont exist in 4e) with Eladrin - which makes no sense, unless you just ignore previous books. Additionally, if you only use "green elves" from 2e, they're mostly the feral variety - the ones that don't exist in 4e.

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Not wanting to get involved with the argument here, but just this statement kind of reminded me of how over the years in our own world the Politically Correct name for People of Color has changed with each generation it seems.... the "word that I shall not name", black, colored american, people of color, African-American, etc...

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True. Though usually the older people continue to use the older term; and it takes a while to catch on. I can't see the bulk of a race that lives the majority of a milennium, and change their culture VERY slowly, switching over to a new term and forgetting all the racial divisions in 100 years. Not a chance.

It would be like if half the europeans decided (in a 5-7 year window) that they should all be called Kirrels instead of whatever nationality they belonged to (greek, italian, french, etc), and the other half decided that they should all be just called europeans; and they homogenized the cultures alot in that time period as well. Plus, you find out that huge interbreeding populations suddenly make little sense because suddenly half the population aren't and have never been mammals.

I find it to be rather absurd.

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Originally posted by Sylrae

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Sylrae


Likewise, I like to use the 3e Eladrin (which were a category of celestials), which in Pathfinder got renamed to Agathions (Stupid rename, but they were trying to avoid conflict with 4e's "Almost an elf" race with the stolen name). I also found it rather contrived that all the various divided sub varieties of elf in faerun would stop thinking of themselves of the race they were for centuries and consider themselves Eladrin instead, in what is for them like 10 years to a human. Additionally if you liked the divide of Wild/Wood Elves (instead of using the term Green Elves to describe two vastly different wilderness based elves with some shared lineage), the 4e elves are what happens when you interbreed a wild elves (dont exist in 4e) with Eladrin - which makes no sense, unless you just ignore previous books. Additionally, if you only use "green elves" from 2e, they're mostly the feral variety - the ones that don't exist in 4e.

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Not wanting to get involved with the argument here, but just this statement kind of reminded me of how over the years in our own world the Politically Correct name for People of Color has changed with each generation it seems.... the "word that I shall not name", black, colored american, people of color, African-American, etc...

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True. Though usually the older people continue to use the older term; and it takes a while to catch on. I can't see the bulk of a race that lives the majority of a milennium, and change their culture VERY slowly, switching over to a new term and forgetting all the racial divisions in 100 years. Not a chance.

It would be like if half the europeans decided (in a 5-7 year window) that they should all be called Kirrels instead of whatever nationality they belonged to (greek, italian, french, etc), and the other half decided that they should all be just called Europeans (and forget all preexisting racial and cultural divides); and then they homogenized the cultures alot in that 5-7 year time period as well. Plus, you find out that huge interbreeding populations suddenly make little sense because suddenly half the population aren't and have never been mammals.

I find it to be rather absurd.

I want my elves to go back to being elves again. Eladrin could be in an Abeir sourcebook for the people who want them. I recognize this can only be done if they essentially act like the last retcon never happened (which itself is a retcon). I generally dislike retcons, but I'm okay with that - just fix what the last team broke.

If I have to read about the various 4e races that replaced the races I liked in forgotten realms, its a major detracting point, and may bother me enough that I won't buy the books.

WotC: Undo the ridiculous retcons please.

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