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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 23:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
For the OP, First of all, the Dragonborn never belonged to begin with. Next, I wouldn't worry too much Dragonborn existed before Tymanther and were actually known as Dragonborn of Bahamut. Check out Dragons of Faerun and Races of the Dragon.
I'm well aware of the Dragonborn of Bahamut. I find the 4e dragonborn much more appealing. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 00:13:48
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| I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:45:27
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What if they weren't in the FR book, but instead in an Abeir book. The abeir book can make references to them in Faerun, so if you picked up both, you could easily use them together.
If you're one of the "4e's changes make me violently ill" types, you can just pick up the Faerun book and pretend Abeir never happened (or at least not be forced to deal with tons of PCs and NPCs reminding you of it.)
The Realms book wouldn't have to say they never existed, they could just be omitted (like half-dragons and eladrin and dragonkin and the various types of elves were in 4e) Except instead of them having no support, they can get support in an Abeir book, which can have a section on how to include them if you use Abeir with Faerun.
That could satisfy both groups. But you would have to release the Abeir book and the Faerun book close together in terms of time. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn? |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 03:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...) As for genasi - I like the idea of a Dgen empire in Calimshan. I liked old Calimshan, but unfortunately it became redundant with Zakhara. The Rise of the Elemental Imperium... i like the sound of that. 
As much as I've complained about the genasi empire in Calimshan, I don't think it's a completely bad idea. Actually, I'd like it if it were a jinn empire instead... I can't fathom why they decided to let Calim and Memnon free and make them disappear in the same book. And then conjure a bunch of genasi out of thin air (silly pun intended) to rule in their stead. And I'd rather have the Calim Desert recede/disappear with the destruction of the Calimemnon crystal than grow... that's always struck me as an odd place for a desert, but YMMV.
And I don't really give much thought to redundancy. There's got to be some similar places in the Realms, I reckon. As long as it makes sense in my head it's fine (in the Zakhara/Calimshan case, I figure the "fantasy-arabian" culture is based on jinn culture, and that's why those places are similar). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
It's been confirmed that Returned Abir and Tymanther are being removed from 5e realms, which I think is a terrible shame as they were among my favorite parts of 4e, and as I've said several times, I believe they offered a wealth of untapped potential.
I hear ya, which is why I've been advocating for a few more DDI articles detailing these areas before they're gone (for good?). Personally, I've never been interested in Mexico or Egypt countries in the Realms but I can understand people want to see them back, it just seems like such an awesome opportunity that's wasted. And I have a strong feeling that even when they DO bring back Mexico and Egypt, we'll probably only see bits and pieces of lore outside the next vesion of the Setting book. If people weren't heavily interested in those areas in the supposed 'golden days' of FR, what makes them think they will be today??
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
However, my question is what will become of the dragonborn in 5e realms? Will they be shipped back to Abeir along with their homelands? Will those who are native-born to Toril(which I suspect would be the vast majority) remain? Will only those not on Abeirnian land when it's sent back remain on Toril?
What's the plan?
Depends on how much "CORE" of D&D:Next will attempted to be shoved into the Forgotten Realms. I'm hoping Dragonborn make it as a playable race in the D&D:Next 1st Player's Handbook. If that's the case, I can only assume that there WILL be Dragonborn that remain on Faerūn, but perhaps not in as great of numbers. I can only hope that they're supported in some way in D&D:Next and that there's an excerpt about them in the next FRCS.
What I'd like to see is along the lines of sub-racial mechanics. For exmaple, the playtest boasts of Sub-races for everyone but humans. This has a mechanical tie (but not as stupid as it was in pre-4E systems) depending on what version you pick. So elves have High and Wood. Dwarves have Hill and Mountain. Etc.... Dragonborn might have Returned Abier or Bahamut Born versions. The separation might signify the close ties one has to both different elements and roleplaying opportunities that can be had. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 06:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DiffanWhat I'd like to see is along the lines of sub-racial mechanics. For exmaple, the playtest boasts of Sub-races for everyone but humans. This has a mechanical tie (but not as stupid as it was in pre-4E systems) depending on what version you pick. So elves have High and Wood. Dwarves have Hill and Mountain. Etc.... Dragonborn might have Returned Abier or Bahamut Born versions. The separation might signify the close ties one has to both different elements and roleplaying opportunities that can be had.
IMO, Elves should have more than High and Wood. Wood Elves and High elves are about as different as High elves and Drow. I would Rather see High and wood Elves as "Races", and have the subraces be Moon Elf, Sun Elf, etc.
Dragonborn of Bahamut could have started out as halflings, or dwarves, or other things, IIRC. they're substantially different from their 4e counterparts. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 07:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
quote:
Originally posted by DiffanWhat I'd like to see is along the lines of sub-racial mechanics. For exmaple, the playtest boasts of Sub-races for everyone but humans. This has a mechanical tie (but not as stupid as it was in pre-4E systems) depending on what version you pick. So elves have High and Wood. Dwarves have Hill and Mountain. Etc.... Dragonborn might have Returned Abier or Bahamut Born versions. The separation might signify the close ties one has to both different elements and roleplaying opportunities that can be had.
IMO, Elves should have more than High and Wood. Wood Elves and High elves are about as different as High elves and Drow. I would Rather see High and wood Elves as "Races", and have the subraces be Moon Elf, Sun Elf, etc.
Dragonborn of Bahamut could have started out as halflings, or dwarves, or other things, IIRC. they're substantially different from their 4e counterparts.
I agree about the Dragonborn, however one must assume that once you've chosen to become a Dragonborn of Bahamut, your whole body changes into something completely different. Therefor, in the Dragonborn description, you would retain a bit of your "old self" as far as understanding certain aspects of culture and race. Mechanically speaking a Dwarven Dragonborn of Bahamut is the same as an Elven Dragonborn of Bahamut.
As for the elves, *sigh* I just don't agree with you. I don't want to see a multidude of sub-races and races with all sorts of different mechanics and game-elements just because the flavor and role-playing elements of a race differ. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 08:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
quote:
Originally posted by DiffanWhat I'd like to see is along the lines of sub-racial mechanics. For exmaple, the playtest boasts of Sub-races for everyone but humans. This has a mechanical tie (but not as stupid as it was in pre-4E systems) depending on what version you pick. So elves have High and Wood. Dwarves have Hill and Mountain. Etc.... Dragonborn might have Returned Abier or Bahamut Born versions. The separation might signify the close ties one has to both different elements and roleplaying opportunities that can be had.
IMO, Elves should have more than High and Wood. Wood Elves and High elves are about as different as High elves and Drow. I would Rather see High and wood Elves as "Races", and have the subraces be Moon Elf, Sun Elf, etc.
Dragonborn of Bahamut could have started out as halflings, or dwarves, or other things, IIRC. they're substantially different from their 4e counterparts.
I agree about the Dragonborn, however one must assume that once you've chosen to become a Dragonborn of Bahamut, your whole body changes into something completely different. Therefor, in the Dragonborn description, you would retain a bit of your "old self" as far as understanding certain aspects of culture and race. Mechanically speaking a Dwarven Dragonborn of Bahamut is the same as an Elven Dragonborn of Bahamut.
As for the elves, *sigh* I just don't agree with you. I don't want to see a multidude of sub-races and races with all sorts of different mechanics and game-elements just because the flavor and role-playing elements of a race differ.
Very much agree about the elven subraces. I enjoyed the eladrin/elf/drow split, not particularly caring about the name overlap that turned most people off eladrin. Still, the three basics keep it simple. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 14:56:01
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| I agree with you on the Dragonborn , its a pity that they are being disposed off. I think there was a lot of potential in that race, especially as they make great characters in the novels. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I guess, the compromise is
most of the abeir stuff to be moved back to abeir (except some pockets there will provide ruins etc as adventures opportunities)
some portals between the worlds (with some problems, that does not work all the time, difficult to predict when they work)
WOTC would probably have to make a sourcebook about Abeir.
I wouldn't call that a compromise.
A compromise would be substantial parts of Abeir remaining on Toril (entire cities), and have potential conflicts in regions that suddenly became overpopulated with the return of people with those parts of Toril.
I don't think that the solution to the problems created by 4E can be solved by making the same mistake of getting rid of entire societies. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I guess, the compromise is
most of the abeir stuff to be moved back to abeir (except some pockets there will provide ruins etc as adventures opportunities)
some portals between the worlds (with some problems, that does not work all the time, difficult to predict when they work)
WOTC would probably have to make a sourcebook about Abeir.
I wouldn't call that a compromise.
A compromise would be substantial parts of Abeir remaining on Toril (entire cities), and have potential conflicts in regions that suddenly became overpopulated with the return of people with those parts of Toril.
I don't think that the solution to the problems created by 4E can be solved by making the same mistake of getting rid of entire societies.
It actually would be a compromise. The Abeir fans all have now lore for Abeir which for all purposes was a NEW campaign world anyway. Now they get a whole source book for the information they want. The realms fans that do not need a new campaign world can still have the realms they always played in without the arbitrary new areas.
It is a great compromise because an Abeir sourcebook can have a ton of information about how the two worlds interact. All of that can be placed there, and BOTH sides get the realms they want then.
I am so far buying into the 5e realms. A major factor for that is how much remnant of Abeir is actually on the map. If they leave abeir there in a way I can ignore I will sign on, otherwise it is 3.5 realms with Pathfinder moving forward. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 17:01:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I guess, the compromise is
most of the abeir stuff to be moved back to abeir (except some pockets there will provide ruins etc as adventures opportunities)
some portals between the worlds (with some problems, that does not work all the time, difficult to predict when they work)
WOTC would probably have to make a sourcebook about Abeir.
I wouldn't call that a compromise.
A compromise would be substantial parts of Abeir remaining on Toril (entire cities), and have potential conflicts in regions that suddenly became overpopulated with the return of people with those parts of Toril.
I don't think that the solution to the problems created by 4E can be solved by making the same mistake of getting rid of entire societies.
It actually would be a compromise. The Abeir fans all have now lore for Abeir which for all purposes was a NEW campaign world anyway. Now they get a whole source book for the information they want. The realms fans that do not need a new campaign world can still have the realms they always played in without the arbitrary new areas.
It is a great compromise because an Abeir sourcebook can have a ton of information about how the two worlds interact. All of that can be placed there, and BOTH sides get the realms they want then.
I am so far buying into the 5e realms. A major factor for that is how much remnant of Abeir is actually on the map. If they leave abeir there in a way I can ignore I will sign on, otherwise it is 3.5 realms with Pathfinder moving forward.
My problem is that you're assuming that the Abeir fans only like Abeir alone. That's certainly not my case. If anything I'm a fan of Abeir on Toril, I want to keep seeing these Abeir societies directly interacting with the parts of the Realms surrounding them.
That's why this proposal isn't a compromise of any sort because its basically setting Abeir aside. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 17:03:06
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In my home game I'm probably going to keep Returned Abeir on Toril, possibly combined/interposed with Maztica, though as I've always disliked Maztica I may exclude it completely. Still, the proposed conflict with Abeir due to a strain on resources and overpopulation does sound interesting to me, so I'm not making up my mind completely.
What always appealed to me about Abeir was the potential for "stranger in a strange land" stories with people from Faerun going to Abeir for the first time and people of Abeir going to Toril for the first time, though I suppose that was still there with Maztica, I just don't care for the poorly done mesoamerican fantasy counterpart culture. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 17:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
As much as I've complained about the genasi empire in Calimshan, I don't think it's a completely bad idea. Actually, I'd like it if it were a jinn empire instead... I can't fathom why they decided to let Calim and Memnon free and make them disappear in the same book. And then conjure a bunch of genasi out of thin air (silly pun intended) to rule in their stead. And I'd rather have the Calim Desert recede/disappear with the destruction of the Calimemnon crystal than grow... that's always struck me as an odd place for a desert, but YMMV.
Good point.
I think this is one of those 4e things that just needs some tweaking. Something along the lines of those two opening a portal or some-such (either deliberately, or they fight one last time and destroy each other, causing a massive 'magical backlash', the fallout of which spreads throughout Calimshan, etc, etc...) Something that connects the first events to the second set of events.
Thats what I've been saying - most of the 4e lore really just needs to be shoe-horned into the Realms, rather then just dropped from the sky on top of it. Nearly everything could have been better if given just a wee bit of thought.
Genasi, Dragonborn, and Tieflings - they are NOT a 4e creation. All of them existed before in the Realms. Why the designers thought that applying 4e core fluff onto things that already had their own FR back-story is still beyond me (and most of us, I'd wager). Thats seemed kinda pointless and counter-productive.
I'm in construction, and sometimes I go to someone's house and immediately say, "you had an extension put on", or, "you added a second floor". People ask how I know, and I say, "because it wasn't done right". If I can tell something was added to the original plan of the house, then thats just sloppy design. You know when I'm impressed? When some tells me they had work done, and I can't tell where or what.
Thats how ALL design needs to be done - when you can't even see the seams. Connect the new lore to the existing lore in such a way that the two blend together harmoniously, and its pure win. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:56:34
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To be fair, the genasi change was not 4e core being forced on the Forgotten Realms setting. The genasi debuted for 4e in the FRPG- the changes made to them were a straight up retcon of what came before. And my personal opinion on it(surprise surprise) that the change was for the better. Stylistically I love 4e genasi, and I liked that they were one race as opposed to four related races.
I feel the same way regarding 4e dragonborn. Dragonborn of Bahamut, when done well, make my eyes roll near clean out of my head. When done poorly, the fill me with venomous rage. They just cross that "special snowflake" line that offends my sensibilities. Their replacement with dragonborn as a standard player race was one of the things that really sold me on 4e as a whole, so regardless of how Wizards is going to progress, I'll be keeping the 4e styled dragonborn in my game. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:25:51
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For the Elves, I would be fine with the Sun/Moon/Star elves all using the same game mechanics. The Wood/Wild elves are substantially different, in terms of more than fluff. They're kindof stupid and tough (str or con bonus, not int) and they don't really have magic (magic-based racial abilities don't fit so well for a non-magic race).
4 types of elves would be sufficient for most things. Sun/Moon/Star, Wood/Wild, Drow, Aquatic. Add in the Shapeshifting elves too I suppose, and Avariels. But 4 core categories would work fine, as opposed to 8. But in the setting writings you still need to refer to all the different races when they apply. Sun Elves and Moon Elves have some racial tension. Don't give them the same name in the fluff - even if they have the same mechanics in game terms the cultures would be horribly offended to be called the other race.
It's not the broader racial categories for elves that I objected to in 4e, it was all the other things that went with it. Turning more than half the elves into fey, lots of retcons, making races with conflict suddenly agree theyre the same race, getting rid of eladrin, etc. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 06:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
It's been confirmed that Returned Abir and Tymanther are being removed from 5e realms, which I think is a terrible shame as they were among my favorite parts of 4e, and as I've said several times, I believe they offered a wealth of untapped potential.
However, my question is what will become of the dragonborn in 5e realms? Will they be shipped back to Abeir along with their homelands? Will those who are native-born to Toril(which I suspect would be the vast majority) remain? Will only those not on Abeirnian land when it's sent back remain on Toril?
What's the plan?
A question in another thread that began with a statement to the effect of "the dragonborn are going back to Abeir" made me remember this thread because my first thought there, as here, was "who said that was happening?" So, I'm curious now, where was it confirmed that Tymanther (and apparently it's Dragonborn) are going away? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 07:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
It's been confirmed that Returned Abir and Tymanther are being removed from 5e realms, which I think is a terrible shame as they were among my favorite parts of 4e, and as I've said several times, I believe they offered a wealth of untapped potential.
However, my question is what will become of the dragonborn in 5e realms? Will they be shipped back to Abeir along with their homelands? Will those who are native-born to Toril(which I suspect would be the vast majority) remain? Will only those not on Abeirnian land when it's sent back remain on Toril?
What's the plan?
A question in another thread that began with a statement to the effect of "the dragonborn are going back to Abeir" made me remember this thread because my first thought there, as here, was "who said that was happening?" So, I'm curious now, where was it confirmed that Tymanther (and apparently it's Dragonborn) are going away?
I'll have to look for the link where it says that Abeir's going back- I'll get that tomorrow.
But I don't know for a fact that the dragonborn are going back- which was the point of this thread. I was asking as to whether or not that's been confirmed. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:26:17
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Everything stated by the design team on race so far is that the PHB 1 will contain multiple races, but the only races assumed to present in most campaign setting will be elves, halfings, dwarves and humans. I would think that the FRCs style book would talk about the various other races and provide suggestions for them, similar to how 4e Dark Sun book handled extinct races.
I really like how they are currently handling subraces in D&D next base race template and small variable mechanic based on subrace. I would think all of the standard FR elf types could fit in that mold gold, silver and green. I would guess drow and aquatic elves would need their own "races" do to more distinct abilities. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 12:29:28
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This thread is just one of many that convinces me that 5eFR won't work. I don't see how the designers can reconcile all the conflicting requirements.  |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 12:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
A question in another thread that began with a statement to the effect of "the dragonborn are going back to Abeir" made me remember this thread because my first thought there, as here, was "who said that was happening?" So, I'm curious now, where was it confirmed that Tymanther (and apparently it's Dragonborn) are going away?
quote:
I'll have to look for the link where it says that Abeir's going back- I'll get that tomorrow.
But I don't know for a fact that the dragonborn are going back- which was the point of this thread. I was asking as to whether or not that's been confirmed.
I would be very surprised if the plan was to bundle up all the dragonborn and whisk them all away to Abeir. That is neither feasible nor does it make much sense. While I refuse to allow them as player characters, it is undeniable, like it or not, that they are an integral part of the Realms - it is up to the individual DM to decide when and how often they'll be utilized.
As an opinion, I would imagine that dragonborn living in Rashamen, Candlekeep, Neverwinter, or wherever, will still be there after the Sundering. All that's being reset is geography - so the dragonborn, along with everyone else in places like Tymanther and Laerakond (locations that were not on Toril originally), will be removed, but any and all dragonborn who have traveled to or now live in other locales in the Realms will still be there. History isn't being reset, after all - time will march forward.
By the same token, Abeir originally had no elves. It is a safe bet that it does now, as any that were in Laerakond and Tymanther are now denizens of that world (and their offspring, and so forth). This is very much a 'mix-and-match' situation. I will profess to being more than a bit surprised at how elegantly Wizbro has solved the entire issue going into 5th Edition. I am still wary, yes, but I am quite optimistic - this solution, to me, seems to be a win for everyone (YMMV).
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 30 Oct 2012 12:37:36 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 14:33:17
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Yeah, I'd think they are porting Tymanther and Laerakond back to Abeir, but any dragonborn who are outside these lands will stay. That would make sense and be in line with all they've stated up until now.
I'm pretty pleased with how they seem to be conducting this as well. If these projections come true, WotC will have done basically what I'd have done in their place. Not what I'd ideally want them to do, mind you, but that's another story.
As for Calimshan, I'd still like if they got Calim and Memnon back. Do a cool story about what they were doing, and we'll get two awesome "new" players in the Realms who were already there to begin with... it would be "returned ancient empire" done right in my opinion (Calimshan didn't need to change all that much from it). But that's my preference. As long as they follow good design practices, I'll be generally positive, even if I don't like the result all that much. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 30 Oct 2012 14:36:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 14:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
While I refuse to allow them as player characters, it is undeniable, like it or not, that they are an integral part of the Realms - it is up to the individual DM to decide when and how often they'll be utilized.
I can deny that they're an integral part of the Realms. We had no dragonborn at all for two editions of the setting, a totally different version of dragonborn for another version, and then, with the fourth version of the setting, we have the most recent flavor of dragonborn.
The setting did fine without them for 20 years, and I don't see any reason why removing them would cause a problem -- unlike elves, dragons, or orcs.
I'm not bashing the race itself or any particular edition... I'm just saying that something that was added on to the setting a handful of years ago is not integral. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 17:59:29
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BTW, where was this confirmed at?
Oh, and any word on what the status of Akanul will be? |
Edited by - Caolin on 30 Oct 2012 18:00:41 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 18:09:38
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akanul is going home ack to abeir and it was comfirmed at one of the recent cons....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
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http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 13:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
While I refuse to allow them as player characters, it is undeniable, like it or not, that they are an integral part of the Realms - it is up to the individual DM to decide when and how often they'll be utilized.
I can deny that they're an integral part of the Realms. We had no dragonborn at all for two editions of the setting, a totally different version of dragonborn for another version, and then, with the fourth version of the setting, we have the most recent flavor of dragonborn.
The setting did fine without them for 20 years, and I don't see any reason why removing them would cause a problem -- unlike elves, dragons, or orcs.
I'm not bashing the race itself or any particular edition... I'm just saying that something that was added on to the setting a handful of years ago is not integral.
Apologies, I should have been a bit more specific.
While I agree that there was no need for them, as Wizbro could have utilized the saurials in that capacity, they felt, as with other aspects of forcing the Realms to conform to their 'new vision', that each and every aspect of 4th edition core simply had to be included in their various game worlds (those that were still receiving anything resembling corporate support, that is).
So in this sense, dragonborn are an integral part of the Realms - now that they're here, they can't just be removed without a lot of continuity damage, damage that would go against their stated goal of reworking the geography - and nothing else. The bulk of the race will vanish back to Abeir along with the lands they were known to inhabit, but those that were elsewhere, we cannot logically expect - or demand - be removed.
This is just the way it seems to my way of thinking. I dislike the entire concept of dragonborn, lock, stock, and barrel, and not only will I disallow them as player characters in any campaign I run, I personally will never use them in any capacity. The concept of how they were presented was too much of a shoehorn for my taste. The genasi presentation left a sour taste, but I could accept it, apart from the sandblasting of Calimshan (pun intended). Dragonborn - not so much.
So I should say, they are now an integral part of the Realms as we know them. They are like the pigs and rabbits introduced into the Australian ecology - while the bulk will be going back to their world, you simply will not be able to get rid of them all.
- OMH |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
This thread is just one of many that convinces me that 5eFR won't work. I don't see how the designers can reconcile all the conflicting requirements.
Magic? 
While I agree with the sentiment, it is possible. I just think it may be a lot more work then they are willing to commit to. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 18:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 21:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.
You realize that there are, like, 9 separate types of Elves and at least 3 or 4 types of Dwarves and a few different types of Gnomes and Halflings and around a dozen or more racial/cultural distinctions of Humans. And we can't forget the different kinds of monsters like Orcs (which sport 3 disinctly different types that I can recall off the top of my head) or Genasi or Planetouched or Giants or.....well you get the point.
I don't see how there's anything redundant from having two culturally different versions of the same race and have a minimal (and I mean very minimal) distinction between the two as far as mechanics go. The precident has already been set a dozen times over with the Forgotten Realms anyways, adding one more to the pile will hardly cause that many problems IMO. |
Edited by - Diffan on 09 Nov 2012 21:04:07 |
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Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and 5e Dragonborn
