| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 23:20:07
It's been confirmed that Returned Abir and Tymanther are being removed from 5e realms, which I think is a terrible shame as they were among my favorite parts of 4e, and as I've said several times, I believe they offered a wealth of untapped potential.
However, my question is what will become of the dragonborn in 5e realms? Will they be shipped back to Abeir along with their homelands? Will those who are native-born to Toril(which I suspect would be the vast majority) remain? Will only those not on Abeirnian land when it's sent back remain on Toril?
What's the plan? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 22:09:16
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
But they don't look like Abeir's Dragonborn. They all bare resemblance to Bahamut himself with the framework of their original race.
Dragonborn of Bahamut (3E Races of the Dragon supplement)
And another article on v3.5 Dragonborn
For comparison:
4E Dragonborn
And Here
To me, there's very little difference from the two in their apperance. Abilities, sure but that's more of a rules change rather than the change in the continunity.
Well, for starters, you don't see very many dwarf or halfling sized Abeirnian dragonborn; you might see the rare scrawny one that's about human sized, but for the most part they're closer to orcs in terms of proportion.
Secondly all dragonborn of Bahamut are platinum colored and mostly have horns. Abeirnian dragonborn tend towards tans, browns, reddish hues, almost never matching up directly with the major dragon colors, and they don't have horns. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 21:25:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I understand the reasoning behind it... he wants loyal servitors who are singlemindedly focused on what he wants. He could have made it such that any child born would be of the original genetic material (i.e. the reproductive organs don't change what they do). Instead he sterilized them. I stand by my viewpoint.... he's a prick, and I wouldn't worship him.... not when I could say worship Torm or Tyr and still make a family. But, then he's a god of dragons... not humans.
But then you'd have kids to deal with, and they'd possibly be mixed-race (like dwelves!) on top of that. And the parents would either have to make alternate arrangements for the upbringing of the kid, or they'd have to not be as devoted to Bahamut.
And in the case of making alternate arrangements for the kid, that's a kid that's essentially abandoned by his or her parents because their cause was more important. Not only is that very unfair to the kid, it's likely psychologically damaging.
Looking at it from that angle, I don't see any reason to hold it against Bahamut. I think that it's a better solution than having bitter, abandoned children -- especially since a prospective dragonborn is aware of everything they're giving up. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 20:33:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.
Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.
But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.
Oh, and if this is true.... man Bahamut is a prick.
Well, it kinda makes sense -- if you become a dragonborn, you're basically giving up everything you were before, in order to work against Tiamat and her spawn. And this requires a serious dedication -- more dedicated than some knightly orders or priesthoods. And like these orders or religious groups, affection for someone else detracts from your mission.
On top of that, rendering his dragonborn sterile serves another function. Since dragonborn leave their original races behind, any reproduction (if it was possible) would make the new race, not the old one. But Bahamut wants people to serve willingly, and to have a choice -- being born as one of his dragonborn would mean that the choice was made for you. Making that no possible neatly solves the issue.
I understand the reasoning behind it... he wants loyal servitors who are singlemindedly focused on what he wants. He could have made it such that any child born would be of the original genetic material (i.e. the reproductive organs don't change what they do). Instead he sterilized them. I stand by my viewpoint.... he's a prick, and I wouldn't worship him.... not when I could say worship Torm or Tyr and still make a family. But, then he's a god of dragons... not humans. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 16:33:18
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.
Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.
But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.
Oh, and if this is true.... man Bahamut is a prick.
Well, it kinda makes sense -- if you become a dragonborn, you're basically giving up everything you were before, in order to work against Tiamat and her spawn. And this requires a serious dedication -- more dedicated than some knightly orders or priesthoods. And like these orders or religious groups, affection for someone else detracts from your mission.
On top of that, rendering his dragonborn sterile serves another function. Since dragonborn leave their original races behind, any reproduction (if it was possible) would make the new race, not the old one. But Bahamut wants people to serve willingly, and to have a choice -- being born as one of his dragonborn would mean that the choice was made for you. Making that no possible neatly solves the issue. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 16:25:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.
Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.
But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.
Just wondering, does it give a lifespan? If so, by the time of the 4e realms, maybe they're all dead.
I believe either that book or the 3E Draconomicon gave a lifespan. I think middle age for them is 200 years. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 15:34:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.
Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.
But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.
Oh, and if this is true.... man Bahamut is a prick. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 15:33:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.
Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.
But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated.
Just wondering, does it give a lifespan? If so, by the time of the 4e realms, maybe they're all dead. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 14:58:00
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce.
Actually, we do. I looked in my copy of Races of the Dragon last night. First I found where it said all dragonborn (obviously, this pertains to the 3E race) are born as members of another race, and choose to become dragonborn when Bahamut asked them. To me, that's clear enough right there.
But if not, Races of the Dragon also specifies that dragonborn are sterile. This is explicitly stated. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 17:54:46
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
But they don't look like Abeir's Dragonborn. They all bare resemblance to Bahamut himself with the framework of their original race.
Dragonborn of Bahamut (3E Races of the Dragon supplement)
And another article on v3.5 Dragonborn
For comparison:
4E Dragonborn
And Here
To me, there's very little difference from the two in their apperance. Abilities, sure but that's more of a rules change rather than the change in the continunity.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction
Clear? No. It's a decent enough of an assumption but a guess none the less. Again, we have little enough information to say for 100% certanity that Dragonborn post-transformation cannot reproduce. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 17:27:46
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar.
Except that the dragonborn of Bahamut aren't a true race -- new dragonborn of Bahamut aren't born; embracing that form is a deliberate decision made by an adult of another race. They don't reproduce, they undergo metamorphosis.
I don't think we have any evidence that, once metamorphosis occurs, they no longer have any reproductive organs. If they DO, then it's quite possible that they could reproduce and even with other humanoid species. Further I'd like to think that Bahamut, in his infinte God-like Wisdom, would probably have made Dragonborn of 3E appear as "true" Dragonborn such as the ones on Abeir in appearence and description.
Basically we don't have a lot of information to go on from a Realms perspective and really, not from a game supplment perspective either. Which tells me that with a few good ideas they could be merged or made similiar in story and mechanics to rationalize multiple sub-races within that race.
The information we do have on the 3E dragonborn is that they are born as members of other races, and have to dedicate themselves to Bahamut, and choose to undergo a special ritual, to become dragonborn. That, to me, makes it clear enough that it is not possible to make a new dragonborn of Bahamut through simple reproduction. |
| Razz |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 17:16:36
But they don't look like Abeir's Dragonborn. They all bare resemblance to Bahamut himself with the framework of their original race. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 05:07:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar.
Except that the dragonborn of Bahamut aren't a true race -- new dragonborn of Bahamut aren't born; embracing that form is a deliberate decision made by an adult of another race. They don't reproduce, they undergo metamorphosis.
I don't think we have any evidence that, once metamorphosis occurs, they no longer have any reproductive organs. If they DO, then it's quite possible that they could reproduce and even with other humanoid species. Further I'd like to think that Bahamut, in his infinte God-like Wisdom, would probably have made Dragonborn of 3E appear as "true" Dragonborn such as the ones on Abeir in appearence and description.
Basically we don't have a lot of information to go on from a Realms perspective and really, not from a game supplment perspective either. Which tells me that with a few good ideas they could be merged or made similiar in story and mechanics to rationalize multiple sub-races within that race. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 04:32:38
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar.
Except that the dragonborn of Bahamut aren't a true race -- new dragonborn of Bahamut aren't born; embracing that form is a deliberate decision made by an adult of another race. They don't reproduce, they undergo metamorphosis. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:00:05
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.
While I can understand the concern for redundancy, I'm a little confused as to why it would be necessary... given that, for another example, most non-elves tend to view all the elven sub-races as, merely, "elves." Rarely do we actually see other races concerning themselves with the particular racial identity of a specific elven sub-race -- unless derogatory terms are being exchanged. Only close friends and/or inter-racial families members tend to make that differentiation. Otherwise, they're all "just elves."
Why should the various dragonborn races be subjected to such a differing identification paradigm?
Anyone that plays the Realms worth their salt would be aware of elven, dwarven, even halfling subraces. Thing is they all have the same origin; a primary racial stock and then variants created through geographical, cultural, and (sometimes, such as aquatic, drow, and snow elves) magical diversity.
The Dragonborn of Bahamut and the Dragonborn of Abeir are not the same being at all and have completely different origins.
The Dragonborn of Abeir are a true race, a true breed with a history with the dragons of Abeir, with their own unique culture.
The Dragonborn of Bahamut were never truly dragons to begin with; they are (were) formerly humanoids that performed a sacred Bahamut ritual of rebirth, transformed entirely into not true dragons, but dragonblooded humanoids with the appearance of the Platinum Dragon himself. Mixed in with a few features of their original form, of course. They do not have a unique culture, in fact, their culture is that of their original race with just the addition of a new life-altering decision to serve Bahamut's aims.
Because of the vast differences between the two, it should be a priority to avoid any, and all, confusion of the two at all. They simply are not one and the same as it is with the demihuman subraces.
Yet there are intimations that some elves actually arose on this world without being interlopers from the feywild (or Faerie). Then there are the elves that came not from Faerie but rather in on spelljamming vessels. I understand that the 2 types of "dragonborn" have a different origin, but the "mechanics" of their construction are similar enough that they'll end up lumped together. They are truly different from other "draco-humanoid" races such as the various half-dragons, dragonkin, and the draconians of DL, but the two types of "dragonborn" would be close enough that a few centuries down the road when they've forgotten who their grandmother and grandfather are that they'd be very similar. |
| Razz |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 22:16:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't use Dragonborn, I use Khaasta, which have a better back-story IMHO.
I think FR now has more types of Draconians then DL does. 
@Razz - While what you say is true, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean that one could not have been based on the other. For instance, if some strange race (on some obscure world) started venerating the Fey pantheon, and needed to change (for whatever reason), I don't think the Fey (or Seldarine) gods would reinvent the wheel - they'd turn them all into Fey/Elves.
So Bahamut - being a multispheric deity - may have had some access to, or vision of, what was happening on Abeir, and used those creatures as a basis for his. For all we know, there easily could be some sort of universal template for 'Dragonman'.
No argument there, assuming that becomes a common known fact to Realms gamers, of course. Otherwise, why blur the lines and cause confusion? I see it happen all the time when Dragonborn are brought up in a discussion, and then some wise soul finally jumps in and fixes the situation by pointing out the difference of Bahamut's Dragonborn and Abeir's Dragonborn.
(BTW, Sage, that large blue text wasn't my doing. I just noticed it when I came back here, dunno how my text got changed to that) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 17:51:04
I don't use Dragonborn, I use Khaasta, which have a better back-story IMHO.
I think FR now has more types of Draconians then DL does.
@Razz - While what you say is true, and I agree with it, it doesn't mean that one could not have been based on the other. For instance, if some strange race (on some obscure world) started venerating the Fey pantheon, and needed to change (for whatever reason), I don't think the Fey (or Seldarine) gods would reinvent the wheel - they'd turn them all into Fey/Elves.
So Bahamut - being a multispheric deity - may have had some access to, or vision of, what was happening on Abeir, and used those creatures as a basis for his. For all we know, there easily could be some sort of universal template for 'Dragonman'. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 11:25:37
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I hope so , still we will never likely get a story from a dragonborns perspective now which is unfortunate.
Actually, depending on the author (and how well they 'get' dragonborn as presented in 4th Edition), they could very likely start out their tale in pre-Sundering Tymanther, give the reader JUST enough insight into the land and its people to generate interest, then put the Sundering smackdown on the whole thing. The next chapters (next book, whatever) take place afterwards, as the hero struggles to deal with the fact that while he was away fighting near Velen or Hillsfar or wherever, he is suddenly deprived of the homeland he grew up in.
The remainder of the tales speak of his way being made in a Realms that no longer includes his homeland. He is akin to young Spock in the JJ Abrams Star Trek remake in that regard. I would imagine that a story like that would go over rather well, enough to generate more than one book. As much as I dislike dragonborn, I would buy a tale like that (one that was printed, mind you).
- OMH
Great idea. This sounds like a book that i would definitely buy. Though I agree that it should a proper printed book. |
| Razz |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 18:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.
While I can understand the concern for redundancy, I'm a little confused as to why it would be necessary... given that, for another example, most non-elves tend to view all the elven sub-races as, merely, "elves." Rarely do we actually see other races concerning themselves with the particular racial identity of a specific elven sub-race -- unless derogatory terms are being exchanged. Only close friends and/or inter-racial families members tend to make that differentiation. Otherwise, they're all "just elves."
Why should the various dragonborn races be subjected to such a differing identification paradigm?
Anyone that plays the Realms worth their salt would be aware of elven, dwarven, even halfling subraces. Thing is they all have the same origin; a primary racial stock and then variants created through geographical, cultural, and (sometimes, such as aquatic, drow, and snow elves) magical diversity.
The Dragonborn of Bahamut and the Dragonborn of Abeir are not the same being at all and have completely different origins.
The Dragonborn of Abeir are a true race, a true breed with a history with the dragons of Abeir, with their own unique culture.
The Dragonborn of Bahamut were never truly dragons to begin with; they are (were) formerly humanoids that performed a sacred Bahamut ritual of rebirth, transformed entirely into not true dragons, but dragonblooded humanoids with the appearance of the Platinum Dragon himself. Mixed in with a few features of their original form, of course. They do not have a unique culture, in fact, their culture is that of their original race with just the addition of a new life-altering decision to serve Bahamut's aims.
Because of the vast differences between the two, it should be a priority to avoid any, and all, confusion of the two at all. They simply are not one and the same as it is with the demihuman subraces. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 17:57:52
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I hope so , still we will never likely get a story from a dragonborns perspective now which is unfortunate.
Actually, depending on the author (and how well they 'get' dragonborn as presented in 4th Edition), they could very likely start out their tale in pre-Sundering Tymanther, give the reader JUST enough insight into the land and its people to generate interest, then put the Sundering smackdown on the whole thing. The next chapters (next book, whatever) take place afterwards, as the hero struggles to deal with the fact that while he was away fighting near Velen or Hillsfar or wherever, he is suddenly deprived of the homeland he grew up in.
The remainder of the tales speak of his way being made in a Realms that no longer includes his homeland. He is akin to young Spock in the JJ Abrams Star Trek remake in that regard. I would imagine that a story like that would go over rather well, enough to generate more than one book. As much as I dislike dragonborn, I would buy a tale like that (one that was printed, mind you).
- OMH |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 07:45:23
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Personally I like the concept of the Dragonborn and their warrior society was also quite interesting. But we don't really get to see much of them except as supporting characters in a few books, the only exception is the Brotherhood of the Griffin series.. So I think its unfortunate they are being disposed off before even being given a fair chance.
The chances to use them still exist - it's just that no 'Realms' stories would take place in Laerakond or Tymanther, as they aren't going to be in the Realms any longer. I don't see anything keeping an enterprising author from utilizing them in a prominent fashion, though - if it fits the story they have in mind, they'll use them.
- OMH
I hope so , still we will never likely get a story from a dragonborns perspective now which is unfortunate. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 11:21:27
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Personally I like the concept of the Dragonborn and their warrior society was also quite interesting. But we don't really get to see much of them except as supporting characters in a few books, the only exception is the Brotherhood of the Griffin series.. So I think its unfortunate they are being disposed off before even being given a fair chance.
The chances to use them still exist - it's just that no 'Realms' stories would take place in Laerakond or Tymanther, as they aren't going to be in the Realms any longer. I don't see anything keeping an enterprising author from utilizing them in a prominent fashion, though - if it fits the story they have in mind, they'll use them.
- OMH |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 08:49:13
Personally I like the concept of the Dragonborn and their warrior society was also quite interesting. But we don't really get to see much of them except as supporting characters in a few books, the only exception is the Brotherhood of the Griffin series.. So I think its unfortunate they are being disposed off before even being given a fair chance. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 01:03:47
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.
While I can understand the concern for redundancy, I'm a little confused as to why it would be necessary... given that, for another example, most non-elves tend to view all the elven sub-races as, merely, "elves." Rarely do we actually see other races concerning themselves with the particular racial identity of a specific elven sub-race -- unless derogatory terms are being exchanged. Only close friends and/or inter-racial families members tend to make that differentiation. Otherwise, they're all "just elves."
Why should the various dragonborn races be subjected to such a differing identification paradigm? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 21:02:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both.
You realize that there are, like, 9 separate types of Elves and at least 3 or 4 types of Dwarves and a few different types of Gnomes and Halflings and around a dozen or more racial/cultural distinctions of Humans. And we can't forget the different kinds of monsters like Orcs (which sport 3 disinctly different types that I can recall off the top of my head) or Genasi or Planetouched or Giants or.....well you get the point.
I don't see how there's anything redundant from having two culturally different versions of the same race and have a minimal (and I mean very minimal) distinction between the two as far as mechanics go. The precident has already been set a dozen times over with the Forgotten Realms anyways, adding one more to the pile will hardly cause that many problems IMO. |
| Razz |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 18:28:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I would've likened to having them in the Realms were it not for the fact that there's been a precedent of them already and with a totally different origin. Doubled with the fact that the Dragonborn were really a 4E Core creation and shoved into the Realms (and Eberron, Dark Sun, etc.) in order to "unify" everything (yet they had a problem with unifying the multiverse via the Great Wheel?) that I have been turned off by having them in the Realms entirely. I'd rather more types of saurials enter the Realms than 4E Dragonborn.
What's wrong with multiple origins for dragonborn?
It's extremely redundant. We don't need 2 types of Dragonborn in the Realms. Plus they both have the same name. One is, however, all physically resembling Bahamut and the other look like smaller, wingless Dragonkin. One of them needs a name change if you want to keep them both. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:01:28
quote:
Originally posted by arry
This thread is just one of many that convinces me that 5eFR won't work. I don't see how the designers can reconcile all the conflicting requirements.
Magic? 
While I agree with the sentiment, it is possible. I just think it may be a lot more work then they are willing to commit to. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 13:35:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
While I refuse to allow them as player characters, it is undeniable, like it or not, that they are an integral part of the Realms - it is up to the individual DM to decide when and how often they'll be utilized.
I can deny that they're an integral part of the Realms. We had no dragonborn at all for two editions of the setting, a totally different version of dragonborn for another version, and then, with the fourth version of the setting, we have the most recent flavor of dragonborn.
The setting did fine without them for 20 years, and I don't see any reason why removing them would cause a problem -- unlike elves, dragons, or orcs.
I'm not bashing the race itself or any particular edition... I'm just saying that something that was added on to the setting a handful of years ago is not integral.
Apologies, I should have been a bit more specific.
While I agree that there was no need for them, as Wizbro could have utilized the saurials in that capacity, they felt, as with other aspects of forcing the Realms to conform to their 'new vision', that each and every aspect of 4th edition core simply had to be included in their various game worlds (those that were still receiving anything resembling corporate support, that is).
So in this sense, dragonborn are an integral part of the Realms - now that they're here, they can't just be removed without a lot of continuity damage, damage that would go against their stated goal of reworking the geography - and nothing else. The bulk of the race will vanish back to Abeir along with the lands they were known to inhabit, but those that were elsewhere, we cannot logically expect - or demand - be removed.
This is just the way it seems to my way of thinking. I dislike the entire concept of dragonborn, lock, stock, and barrel, and not only will I disallow them as player characters in any campaign I run, I personally will never use them in any capacity. The concept of how they were presented was too much of a shoehorn for my taste. The genasi presentation left a sour taste, but I could accept it, apart from the sandblasting of Calimshan (pun intended). Dragonborn - not so much.
So I should say, they are now an integral part of the Realms as we know them. They are like the pigs and rabbits introduced into the Australian ecology - while the bulk will be going back to their world, you simply will not be able to get rid of them all.
- OMH |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 18:09:38
akanul is going home ack to abeir and it was comfirmed at one of the recent cons....
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| Caolin |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 17:59:29
BTW, where was this confirmed at?
Oh, and any word on what the status of Akanul will be? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 14:42:32
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
While I refuse to allow them as player characters, it is undeniable, like it or not, that they are an integral part of the Realms - it is up to the individual DM to decide when and how often they'll be utilized.
I can deny that they're an integral part of the Realms. We had no dragonborn at all for two editions of the setting, a totally different version of dragonborn for another version, and then, with the fourth version of the setting, we have the most recent flavor of dragonborn.
The setting did fine without them for 20 years, and I don't see any reason why removing them would cause a problem -- unlike elves, dragons, or orcs.
I'm not bashing the race itself or any particular edition... I'm just saying that something that was added on to the setting a handful of years ago is not integral. |
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