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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 06:37:37
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But instead of elves, this topic is about their pantheon, the Seldarine. I have discovered that several people dislike the Seldarine--of course, not everyone likes elves. Let's try not to be rude on this, but I am curious as to what other people think. We know the gods will be less active post-Sundering, but they'll still be there. As someone who likes the elven pantheon, the Rise of the Underdark and the Sundering has me wondering what is in store for the Seldarine. We have been discussing the Dark Seldarine (drow pantheon) in another thread, but you can bring it up here too if you feel it is relevant.
Ideally, I would like the Seldarine to be left alone. In other words, don't mess with the pantheon. Keep them as they are. No killing, no more aspects, etc. And for the drow pantheon, I would like to see the return of E and V. But I'm curious as to your thoughts: what do you think will become of the Seldarine post-RotU and post-Sundering?
Let's try and be civil here. I certain have my opinions, and I know you all do too, but let's be polite. If you feel like you need to go on a tirade, you may, but be nice about it, please.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 09:47:45
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I'd like to have Sehanine and Hanali back (Avariel are basically no more, AFAIK, so Aerdrie would have little purpose); Sehanine is the only deity of the Seldarine that I can actually like (with Erevan) and they removed her... (and funnily enough she is there in core, and her flavour there shares even some elements with Eilistraee's -freedom and interest in sheltering drow who refuse Lolth-).
About the DS, there's nothing to say about it, since it's no more (in canon, ofc). Just restore them all: as I've already said, the drow situation cries for the struggle for freedom that E offers, or for internal conflict which V and K brings very well, it's the only thing that stirs my interest in drow, making them more than just 'we are evil and conquer the world for Lolth' kind of characters.
This is what I'd like to see, but I'm not hopeful about it... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Oct 2012 10:28:21 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 17:14:46
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| Well, IMO that's why there IS something to say about the DS: because it's not in canon, and we want it back. There are some avariel left, though they are rare. I think Aedrie still has a purpose, it's just her "signature" followers have greatly diminished, and if they are going base a deity's power on their numbers of worshippers, then yes, her power would be greatly limited. Erevan doesn't get much attention, so it would be nice to see more of him. I'm not particularly fond of the Sehanine/Selune thing, but then again, I wasn't fond of the gods being aspects of each other, anyway. It'd be nice if Sehanine was just Sehanine again, but I wonder how WotC would explain aspects suddenly not being aspects anymore... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 18:08:18
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I'd like to see the Dark Seldarine come back, but they never really left my campaign in 4E so I don't have so much of a problem with their removal in the first place.
As for the Seldarine, I was actually pretty intrigued by the whole different aspects thing. I felt it gave deities a 3rd dimension that most people who look at Fantasy deities don't look at. To think that a goddess would look and appear differently based on the people they're appearing to and thus, gain another identity altogether is a fun and unique perspective. Of couse, this is all just flavor and fluff of the setting and shouldn't manifest itself in any way shape or form mechanically speaking.
But for the most part, just leave them how they are. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 01:53:35
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I'd like to see them in the novels, since DMs can pick and choose, anyway. But in the novels...either they're there or they aren't, and I'd like them to be there.
I can see your point on the aspects. It's kind of like RW religions, where the deities take different aspects based on the religions, like the Roman gods were pretty much the same as the Greeks, just with different names and somewhat different personalities. But with the Realms...I don't know, I just liked the idea of each pantheon having it's own deity representing something. Like Sune and Hanali. They are both deities of love, but their personalities and their concept of love, while generally the same, had some variations (a quote from RotAW comes to mind). However, so long as the aspects aren't killed, I can live with it. I'm not happy about Sehanine being an aspect of Selune, but I can live with it. It's not like Sehanine is gone.
But yes, leave them how they are. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 02:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
But with the Realms...I don't know, I just liked the idea of each pantheon having it's own deity representing something. Like Sune and Hanali. They are both deities of love, but their personalities and their concept of love, while generally the same, had some variations (a quote from RotAW comes to mind).
Based on this, I pose a theological question: Is the deity representing something of itself or is it a reflection of the people's own ideals and thoughts of what that God should be? Think about the subtle differences between Sune and Hanali, are they differences just because the two Gods are different OR are they different because the patrons that worship them impose their own cultural ideals, beliefs, and images which make them who their identity is?
The way I look at fantasy pantheons is like this, a God is an entity that espouces core beliefs and ideals. They're often broad and general like Love, War, Justice, Death, etc. As Gods appear to the subjects, directly or via spiritual means (like dreams) I think they'll appear in a way that appeal to those people. Afterall, Gods want worship and you don't present an image that doesn't get a strong reaction such as appealing to the visual and cultural senses or through fear and intimidation or with the promises of power, etc.
So it's quite possible for me to beleive that the Goddess of the Moon can appeal to the elves as with an Elven form and because of the strong devotion to that form, break apart and become an "Aspect". Something that's similiar yet distinct in it's own identity becaus the culture has taken such a strong root and difference from the original core beliefs. This, I feel, served the Goddess purposes better to obtain more power through Worshippers.
Again, this is just my own rendition of the deities and how I personally take them into account for my campaigns. I'm sure there could be dozens of Canon ways which prove this theory wrong, but I think that was a mistake by the writers of the Realms in the first place. If they're going to do ANYTHING with the pantheons in DDN, my greatest hope is that they make them Mysterious again. No more plotting with NPCs. No more showing up, half-naked and "Mortal" (like a bad show of Zena). No mor Avatar Stats. Make them mysterious and powerful. Make the cosmology malleable so that nothing is down in concrete. They do that, and it turns into a good theological debate instead of "My canon is more thorough than your canon!" stuff. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 03:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Based on this, I pose a theological question: Is the deity representing something of itself or is it a reflection of the people's own ideals and thoughts of what that God should be? Think about the subtle differences between Sune and Hanali, are they differences just because the two Gods are different OR are they different because the patrons that worship them impose their own cultural ideals, beliefs, and images which make them who their identity is?
Having deities as reflections of people's ideas would make them too vague and variable, as people change their mind very often during time and even the perception of the same idea can drastically change among them. What I mean is that a deity should not just be what worshipers think he/she/it is, but should have an identity on its own, a personality coherent with the concept represented, while still being allowed flexibility according to mortals' needs (I'm not fond of Sheanine being Selune, but that doesn't cause me problems as long as elves still get Sehanine and don't start interchanging the two of them).
Deities should be mysterious -sure- but that can be achieved w/o making them all-in-one or leaving their existence uncertain (this last point is that people who join a 'divine cause' would do so because they believe and want to fight for those ideas with their god, as its agents, not because faith). Seriously, if gods were balls of energy or inconsistent beings shaped by mortal beliefs, my interest in them would instantaneously drop to 0. Such things don't do anything and don't offer entertaining stories; you may as well drop them entirely and replace them with organizations which pursue their same goal. Fantasy deities are somehow humanized, having their own motivations, personalities, flaws and so on, but representing specific concepts (and with awareness, knowledge and intelligence above any mortals', which should prevent them from doing the stupid moves they often do in novels...). Making them too inhuman and inconsistent would make them too similar to some RW religions. There can be a compromise between showing up as 'mortal' and not doing crap at all, not even having a definite identity.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Oct 2012 03:36:51 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 04:21:49
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Diffan, you indeed bring up some good and interesting points. That is quite the theological question, and one I'm sure has been brought up by theologions of RW religions, but I am going to have to agree with Irenan on this one. One of the reasons I keep advocating for us--and characters in the Realms--to know for certain which gods are back/still around is because a great things about the Realms is that people -know- the gods exist. I mean, yeah, there is faith involved, but it is more than that. The elves, for instance, -know- the Seldarine exist, just as followers of, say, Lathander, knows he exists, and thus knew when he became Aamautaur.
I can live with Sehanine being Selune too, though I don't like it. It's better than there being no Selune or Sehanine at all.
There are some RW religions where gods goods act stupidly for petty reaons (gods of ancient Greece come to mind).
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 05:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Based on this, I pose a theological question: Is the deity representing something of itself or is it a reflection of the people's own ideals and thoughts of what that God should be? Think about the subtle differences between Sune and Hanali, are they differences just because the two Gods are different OR are they different because the patrons that worship them impose their own cultural ideals, beliefs, and images which make them who their identity is?
Having deities as reflections of people's ideas would make them too vague and variable, as people change their mind very often during time and even the perception of the same idea can drastically change among them. What I mean is that a deity should not just be what worshipers think he/she/it is, but should have an identity on its own, a personality coherent with the concept represented, while still being allowed flexibility according to mortals' needs (I'm not fond of Sheanine being Selune, but that doesn't cause me problems as long as elves still get Sehanine and don't start interchanging the two of them).
I think with the core values of said God, as perscribed by their Domain/Sphere/Dogma, their image and reflection wouldn't change drastically, even over time. Yet there have been times when deities change their gender or their whole shape for that matter to appear in a way that will get the reaction they want from whom they're addressing. And if a God is addressing someone or something new for worship, then I think they're going to take on some of that culture's own beliefs and values and customs, which are shaped by the people, to become better integrated. I can't fathom that a deity doesn't have the sense to adjust or adapt.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Deities should be mysterious -sure- but that can be achieved w/o making them all-in-one or leaving their existence uncertain (this last point is that people who join a 'divine cause' would do so because they believe and want to fight for those ideas with their god, as its agents, not because faith).
People know gods exist and most of the time, their faith is tested within themselves and their actions, not questioning the existing of their patron. But that's not really here nor there. Gods grant spell, allow for miracles, present themselves to people (sometimes literally), so there's no Mystery of their existance. What I'd want is less focus on how a specific God is directly effecting the world personally or with other Gods. I don't need a "behind the scenes" peek at how the Gods work for them to tell good stories. But perhaps it's because I started with Dragonlance and the FR Avatar Trilogy and the Gods are just another Major character one has to worry about.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Seriously, if gods were balls of energy or inconsistent beings shaped by mortal beliefs, my interest in them would instantaneously drop to 0. Such things don't do anything and don't offer entertaining stories; you may as well drop them entirely and replace them with organizations which pursue their same goal. Fantasy deities are somehow humanized, having their own motivations, personalities, flaws and so on, but representing specific concepts (and with awareness, knowledge and intelligence above any mortals', which should prevent them from doing the stupid moves they often do in novels...). Making them too inhuman and inconsistent would make them too similar to some RW religions. There can be a compromise between showing up as 'mortal' and not doing crap at all, not even having a definite identity.
I think my biggest problm with this view is that it makes them slightly higher than NPCs. If that's the way a God is perceived, as a super humanized being with Über-powers that lives on another plane......it seriously breaks any sort of immersion and just transposes this idea of "lets adventure with Thor!" marvel-esque value. Marvel is great, but I don't really need that strong of a humanization with my deities that I converse with them on a name-by-name basis. To me, that makes them less "Godly" and more "What level do I have to be to kill this thing?" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 10:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think with the core values of said God, as perscribed by their Domain/Sphere/Dogma, their image and reflection wouldn't change drastically, even over time. Yet there have been times when deities change their gender or their whole shape for that matter to appear in a way that will get the reaction they want from whom they're addressing. And if a God is addressing someone or something new for worship, then I think they're going to take on some of that culture's own beliefs and values and customs, which are shaped by the people, to become better integrated. I can't fathom that a deity doesn't have the sense to adjust or adapt.
It really depends on what a deity wishes. There can be more of just one creature representing a particular concept, differing from each other in how and what aspect of it they represent, and in relation to what goal they fight for (and this is what makes people join their cause rather than simply praying to them, their goal and what they want to accomplish). And this leads to the difference in personalities and identity I was talking before. This doesn't mean that deities can't be influenced by mortal beliefs, but there should be a core personality that can't and shouldn't be changed (it is understandable that a being which is beyond mortality has the possibility to change how they manifest, tho). That said, it may simply be that a deity has little interest in gaining followers beside the ones in its 'main' category (not that they would be turned away, tho) because it is not needed to achieve its goal and do its job: in this light racial pantheons are perfectly reasonable (and the deities in them embody the ideas and the values important to that race, besides representing some more widespread ideas). If deities were all to transform and adapt according to who they're interacting with and were just the symbol of X, then you could easily have only one , who would be the god(dess) 'of the world' (after all, different concepts and portfolio are just facets of the whole), would change shape and behavior and would be able to represent all the ideas at the same time, depending on what kind of mortal he/she/it wants to be worshiped by.
quote:
People know gods exist and most of the time, their faith is tested within themselves and their actions, not questioning the existing of their patron. But that's not really here nor there. Gods grant spell, allow for miracles, present themselves to people (sometimes literally), so there's no Mystery of their existance. What I'd want is less focus on how a specific God is directly effecting the world personally or with other Gods. I don't need a "behind the scenes" peek at how the Gods work for them to tell good stories. But perhaps it's because I started with Dragonlance and the FR Avatar Trilogy and the Gods are just another Major character one has to worry about.
Oh, I agree here. I don't care about how deities' plan and do stuff, but I do care for their personality. The fact that a deity isn't simply the symbol of X but something more is what makes him/her/it interesting to me.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Seriously, if gods were balls of energy or inconsistent beings shaped by mortal beliefs, my interest in them would instantaneously drop to 0. Such things don't do anything and don't offer entertaining stories; you may as well drop them entirely and replace them with organizations which pursue their same goal. Fantasy deities are somehow humanized, having their own motivations, personalities, flaws and so on, but representing specific concepts (and with awareness, knowledge and intelligence above any mortals', which should prevent them from doing the stupid moves they often do in novels...). Making them too inhuman and inconsistent would make them too similar to some RW religions. There can be a compromise between showing up as 'mortal' and not doing crap at all, not even having a definite identity.
I think my biggest problm with this view is that it makes them slightly higher than NPCs. If that's the way a God is perceived, as a super humanized being with Über-powers that lives on another plane......it seriously breaks any sort of immersion and just transposes this idea of "lets adventure with Thor!" marvel-esque value. Marvel is great, but I don't really need that strong of a humanization with my deities that I converse with them on a name-by-name basis. To me, that makes them less "Godly" and more "What level do I have to be to kill this thing?"
Not necessarily. It is that way only if the DM or WotC wants it to be. As I said, gods can be mysterious in their plans, ways etc... and still be humanized, with their own identity and characteristic, not just shapechanging balls of energy (the only one which should be so is Ao, considering his role). FR deities don't fulfill the same role as ''real'' ones, they are not there as a made up explanation/origin/reason of life/world/whatever, they're there to 'interact' with mortals, representing ideas important to them, so IMO it isn't appropriate to make gods different from mortals to the point of being completely alien beings. As I said, their ''human'' traits are what makes me care about them instead of just completely ignoring theological matters (as I do in RL). We're talking about fantasy here: if you make it like RW, you'll defeat its point (I guess that we simply have different preferences here tho, so this whole thing is probably a moot point anyway). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Oct 2012 11:33:11 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 11:15:09
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I did not like the reduction in gods by declaring some gods for aspect of other gods
Example: gods for love / fertility
well, their worshipers are competing for land area and the fertility rate is important
seems to me the elven gods of love / fertility would be a competitor to the human god of love / fertility
Well, in general, i did not like the reduction of gods
It was nice, to have an area like mulhorand, there had unique gods compared to the rest of the setting, even though it did create a problem
how did mystra govern the weave when there was also a sidhe god of magic and a mulhorandi god of magic and other areas (al-quadim, etc) with other religions. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 12:13:03
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If a elven deity of love exist next to a human deity of love then i see no conflict, for they have different "pools of worship". The elves venerate their deity, the humans the other. There may be a small amount of people changing over to the other deity but they are the extreme minority. A human deity of love can´t hope to "catch attention" of the elves because it is a human thing, elves differ from humans, same goes the other way around. They coexist and get along or if they have a rivalry due to divine disputes, then they try to make the other kneel or disappear, done through either turning the faithfull of the other deity away from it´s worship or simply kill everyone who venerates the deity in order to make it lose the power to upkeep it´s divine status.
In this particular example i do not see Sune or Hanali warring against each other so they coexist. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 12:25:10
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Well, i saw them as competitors in the form
the race with the best combination of fertility and longevity will win territory from the other race
It is also 2 very different family philosophies
The sidhe way: low fertility, long natural lifespan, a lot of quality time invested in the individual child
The human way, higher fertility, shorter natural lifespan, less quality time invested in the individual child (due to shorter childhoold and more siblings)
It does not make sense, if the goddess of love for those 2 races are the same (via aspects) since one would assume the goddess of love would choose the fertility strategy she believed to be best for the race |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 14 Oct 2012 12:55:21 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 12:52:58
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| Elves value tradition and are stubborn when it comes to tradition, not as stubborn as dwarves but more stubborn than humans i´d say, siding with a human deity now out of no apparent reason other than "best combination" is in my opinion not a choice an elf would do. They would keep to the gods their ancestors bowed to. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 04:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
People know gods exist and most of the time, their faith is tested within themselves and their actions, not questioning the existing of their patron. But that's not really here nor there. Gods grant spell, allow for miracles, present themselves to people (sometimes literally), so there's no Mystery of their existance. What I'd want is less focus on how a specific God is directly effecting the world personally or with other Gods. I don't need a "behind the scenes" peek at how the Gods work for them to tell good stories. But perhaps it's because I started with Dragonlance and the FR Avatar Trilogy and the Gods are just another Major character one has to worry about.
I actually like seeing behind the scenes of the gods. I would not want that in every novel, but if its relevant, like in Evermeet of the Avatar series, I find it interesting. I liked reading about the council of the gods and Lolths fall. And knowing of their existence doesnt really make them less mysterious. I enjoy seeing the gods humanized, but they are still gods, and no mortal will fully understand their motives. What confuses us may make perfect sense to them .
quote:
Originally posted by Irenan
Not necessarily. It is that way only if the DM or WotC wants it to be. As I said, gods can be mysterious in their plans, ways etc... and still be humanized, with their own identity and characteristic, not just shapechanging balls of energy (the only one which should be so is Ao, considering his role). FR deities don't fulfill the same role as ''real'' ones, they are not there as a made up explanation/origin/reason of life/world/whatever, they're there to 'interact' with mortals, representing ideas important to them, so IMO it isn't appropriate to make gods different from mortals to the point of being completely alien beings. As I said, their ''human'' traits are what makes me care about them instead of just completely ignoring theological matters (as I do in RL). We're talking about fantasy here: if you make it like RW, you'll defeat its point (I guess that we simply have different preferences here tho, so this whole thing is probably a moot point anyway).
Agreed, they are real within the settingthough there are creation stories that go with them, such as the elves being made from Corellons blood. They provide for mortals, some more than others, and some interact with mortals more than others. This is one of the great things, about fantasy, IMO.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 07:12:51
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consider it this way as for hanali and Sune
Sune= love and beauty among other things
hanali= passion and love amon other things
Sharass aka Bast = love and carnal pleasure among other things
as for Selune and sehanine
Selune =moon and good lycanthropes among other things
Sehanine = Full moon and dreams among other things
one way to look at them is all |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 07:25:37
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| 'Tis a good point, sfdragon. But then, is that what their aspects would represent, or them as individual deities? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 16:45:59
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individual deities....
I ahted the aspect thing that 4e brought in |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 21:49:52
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I think the aspect thing made a certain amount of sense; I don't think every race needs a deity for everything. I think deities themselves should be more universal than that. More wide spanning. But it makes sense that different races would have different interpretations of different deities, hence humans seeing Gruumsh as Talos and the like.
My problem with the no killing/no aspect thing is two fold; firstly, deicide is a well established part of the realms, ever since Gruumsh killed Re. It happens. I don't think it should be over done and I do think 4e overdid it a little, but where the balance is is personal preference.
My other problem is that if you can't kill deities off or reveal them to be aspects of other deities, then you only have one way to go and that is up. More deities are going to get introduced, that's the nature of the beast, and sooner or later we'll be swimming in them again. There's a point where it becomes too much, where there's simply too much redundancy between deities or they simply represent such a narrow view that it's hard to believe they attract any worshipers at all.
My point is, sometimes you need to take the hedgeclippers to something.
There's also the fact that dead deities still contribute to the setting; as vestiges of their former selves, as legends of the past that live on with minor cults, so on and so forth. Dead deities aren't gone, they still have a role to play. There's also nothing stopping people from worshiping dead gods and even receiving power from that worship- hence the aspect thing. Selune might step into the role of granting prayers for E's faithful, while Cyric or Shagraas may do the same for V.
One of the reasons I don't fully support the return of E & V(mind you I don't actively oppose it, either) is that I don't particularly see them as essential. I think you need some degree of redundancy in a pantheon to give people options, but with E & V, the only ting I see them bringing to the table is that they're drow specific alternatives to Lolth. To which I ask, why can't a drow looking for an alternative to Lolth just find another deity? Gods aren't picky as far as their worshipers goes and if the churches of E & V could survive despite the oppressive rule of the lolthites I don't see why any other deity wouldn't be able to reach out to the drow as well.
There's also the point that one of the reasons E & V were killed off, E specifically, is that there was a conscious decision by management to return drow to a primarily villain race. Now, I'm probably going to sound like a hypocrite for this given how much I campaign for orcs being allowed to be more than that, but maybe thats where they belong. RAS has said he feared for the future of drow as credible villains. I can't count all the bad Drizzt clones, to the point where making fun of drow for all being chaotic good rebels fighting to shake off the reputation of their evil kin has in and of itself become a cliche. Again, might be hypocritical of me as much as I argue about moving forward and not taking steps back, but maybe we should take a step back to a time when being a non-evil drow actually meant something.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:29:39
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dow were always a mostly evil r ace
and there were never any cities of non evil drow....... that laster for any good length of time |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
One of the reasons I don't fully support the return of E & V(mind you I don't actively oppose it, either) is that I don't particularly see them as essential. I think you need some degree of redundancy in a pantheon to give people options, but with E & V, the only ting I see them bringing to the table is that they're drow specific alternatives to Lolth. To which I ask, why can't a drow looking for an alternative to Lolth just find another deity? Gods aren't picky as far as their worshipers goes and if the churches of E & V could survive despite the oppressive rule of the lolthites I don't see why any other deity wouldn't be able to reach out to the drow as well.
There's also the point that one of the reasons E & V were killed off, E specifically, is that there was a conscious decision by management to return drow to a primarily villain race. Now, I'm probably going to sound like a hypocrite for this given how much I campaign for orcs being allowed to be more than that, but maybe thats where they belong. RAS has said he feared for the future of drow as credible villains. I can't count all the bad Drizzt clones, to the point where making fun of drow for all being chaotic good rebels fighting to shake off the reputation of their evil kin has in and of itself become a cliche. Again, might be hypocritical of me as much as I argue about moving forward and not taking steps back, but maybe we should take a step back to a time when being a non-evil drow actually meant something.
E and V bring on the table something the drow cry for as they are now. the drow are not credible villains, especially w/o them, as they appear as a weak race of pawns. I'll quote what I said elsewhere:
quote:
Furthermore there's another thing to consider. Honestly, the realmsian drow kind of fail at being charismatic and strong villains. They live and act mainly out of divine mandates and of pointless dogma that filled their mind since their childhood, not out of their own volition. At the end of the day they are brainwashed pawns for their deity, oppressed, not movers. They as a race don't forge their future, rather mostly depend on Lolth for it, like an infant with the worst mother ever. She toys with them, pitting them against each other in intrigues and betrayals and forcing upon them a life of sacrifice, ever-going struggle for power on others (while they don't have real power on themselves), frustration, and consuming hatred to make them her perfect tools, without any sort of value as persons. Her indoctrination comes to the point that almost all of them don't have any means to make choices about their lives, to fulfill themselves, and even happiness is deemed weak (which isn't something villainous, but self-destructive), as Lolth declares. The gratification they desperately seek in behaving so is in the form of divine approval, something that they'll never be given (and this, according to one of the authors, was one of the ideas behind the soucebook). This is the situation of the drow, which inspires pity rather than fear or hate, and which prevents the dark elves from being cookie-cutter villains (they're not -say- the Dark Eldar from WH40k), but not from being interesting (and dangerous) foes and race, provided that this aspect of their society is played out (and that's what makes them different, flavorful, something that monsters-drow have too, but whose development they lack, while still not being cookie cutter villains because of it). The Dancing Maiden and the Masked Lord, and their struggle for dark elves' freedom would definitely (and meaningfully) bring this contrast on the table, without changing the role of ''bad guys'' that the race has as a whole (for the reasons I explained above), and for this reason they would complete the realmsian drow, totally fitting in their context, opening a lot of possibilities for new ideas and storytelling. This is one more strong reason to bring them back.
Also E and V are interesting characters on their own, with unique personalities which cannot be replaced by any other god in the Seldarine or human pantheon. They don't simply offer opportunities for Drizzt cones or different drow chars, they enrich that part of the setting. You have a romantic, idealistic and passionate rebel and the struggle for freedom she brings on one side, and a fierce, bitter and violent revolutionary with the internal conflict he brings on the other. Seriously, they give depth to the dark elves, and do it in a meaningful way. Besides E's followers are not effing Drizzt clones. They are not exiles who run and hide from their race, they fight for their people's freedom, showing strength in doing so. What should be done is reduce the number of the followers of the Dark Maiden, making them slippery, rare and always watching their back in fear of being persecuted, but fighting nonetheless (something that what was cut from the Menzo book would do very well, as far as I can see). If anything, this would make drow even more exotic, if this is what worries Wizbros. Besides, you know, players started running Drizzt clones before Eilistraee was introduced into the Realms, and can still do it (and still do it), so if that was the reason, then it was non existent (also, what kind of characters players can run, what deities the drow have etc... is up to specific tables, removing characters that offer story potential and that are widely popular should have nothing to do with it).
Then there's the fact that no other deity actually carries on the battle for the drow: how would the drow know about other gods or alternative kind of life, considering the closure and utter indoctrination typical of their society. You have to actually work to spread new ideas, to make people understand. You have to send your agents, interact with drow i.e. risk, and this is something that no other deity beside E and V would do (and especially not the Seldarine, considering their actions). They are very flavourful and valid characters all around, not mere deities of dance/thievery. This is the reason why people reacted so badly to their removal from canon, it was a really ugly move. The siblings and what they stand for are what makes drow realmsian, w/o them the dark elves are just some GH copy-paste (as I see it, they don't need to be back as full fledged deities and their influence can be greatly reduced -so that the illusory problem of all drow are good can be solved-, but what I care about is that they're still there going on with their quest). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Oct 2012 22:54:40 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Based on this, I pose a theological question: Is the deity representing something of itself or is it a reflection of the people's own ideals and thoughts of what that God should be? Think about the subtle differences between Sune and Hanali, are they differences just because the two Gods are different OR are they different because the patrons that worship them impose their own cultural ideals, beliefs, and images which make them who their identity is?
Having deities as reflections of people's ideas would make them too vague and variable, as people change their mind very often during time and even the perception of the same idea can drastically change among them. What I mean is that a deity should not just be what worshipers think he/she/it is, but should have an identity on its own, a personality coherent with the concept represented, while still being allowed flexibility according to mortals' needs (I'm not fond of Sheanine being Selune, but that doesn't cause me problems as long as elves still get Sehanine and don't start interchanging the two of them).
Deities should be mysterious -sure- but that can be achieved w/o making them all-in-one or leaving their existence uncertain (this last point is that people who join a 'divine cause' would do so because they believe and want to fight for those ideas with their god, as its agents, not because faith). Seriously, if gods were balls of energy or inconsistent beings shaped by mortal beliefs, my interest in them would instantaneously drop to 0. Such things don't do anything and don't offer entertaining stories; you may as well drop them entirely and replace them with organizations which pursue their same goal. Fantasy deities are somehow humanized, having their own motivations, personalities, flaws and so on, but representing specific concepts (and with awareness, knowledge and intelligence above any mortals', which should prevent them from doing the stupid moves they often do in novels...). Making them too inhuman and inconsistent would make them too similar to some RW religions. There can be a compromise between showing up as 'mortal' and not doing crap at all, not even having a definite identity.
I think an importent issue here is the difference between the God/godess personality and Church doctrin. Church doctrin can vary somewhat from the core personality of a God/Godess, and not be a major issue for said being. Here's where some of the mystery can come in, to what extent can a God be different from the organized worship of that God. For instance, take a look at Gods of War in that Realm, the extent to which worships place an importance on battle and engaging in warfar various considerably, to the point in some cases warfar is something that consumes the individuals entire reason for being, in the case of the orks for example, or as something that one should prepare for and engage in, but not something that consumes the individual.
this isn't probably as clear as I'd like, so let me try it from another way,
The question is let us say that Godess/Gods have one personality, but that the differeing aspects are slight variations on church believes?
Like in cases of the moon, what if the Godess of the moon incapases all the aspects of what is believed to be part of the different Goddesses of the moon, but the church has for some reason only selected to incorperate some of them. And I believe Mask, if they bring him back could take up V's position quite nicely, and Selune take up I's position, I mean if she did this for the elves, why not for the Drow?
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 23:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Based on this, I pose a theological question: Is the deity representing something of itself or is it a reflection of the people's own ideals and thoughts of what that God should be? Think about the subtle differences between Sune and Hanali, are they differences just because the two Gods are different OR are they different because the patrons that worship them impose their own cultural ideals, beliefs, and images which make them who their identity is?
Having deities as reflections of people's ideas would make them too vague and variable, as people change their mind very often during time and even the perception of the same idea can drastically change among them. What I mean is that a deity should not just be what worshipers think he/she/it is, but should have an identity on its own, a personality coherent with the concept represented, while still being allowed flexibility according to mortals' needs (I'm not fond of Sheanine being Selune, but that doesn't cause me problems as long as elves still get Sehanine and don't start interchanging the two of them).
Deities should be mysterious -sure- but that can be achieved w/o making them all-in-one or leaving their existence uncertain (this last point is that people who join a 'divine cause' would do so because they believe and want to fight for those ideas with their god, as its agents, not because faith). Seriously, if gods were balls of energy or inconsistent beings shaped by mortal beliefs, my interest in them would instantaneously drop to 0. Such things don't do anything and don't offer entertaining stories; you may as well drop them entirely and replace them with organizations which pursue their same goal. Fantasy deities are somehow humanized, having their own motivations, personalities, flaws and so on, but representing specific concepts (and with awareness, knowledge and intelligence above any mortals', which should prevent them from doing the stupid moves they often do in novels...). Making them too inhuman and inconsistent would make them too similar to some RW religions. There can be a compromise between showing up as 'mortal' and not doing crap at all, not even having a definite identity.
I think an importent issue here is the difference between the God/godess personality and Church doctrin. Church doctrin can vary somewhat from the core personality of a God/Godess, and not be a major issue for said being. Here's where some of the mystery can come in, to what extent can a God be different from the organized worship of that God. For instance, take a look at Gods of War in that Realm, the extent to which worships place an importance on battle and engaging in warfar various considerably, to the point in some cases warfar is something that consumes the individuals entire reason for being, in the case of the orks for example, or as something that one should prepare for and engage in, but not something that consumes the individual.
this isn't probably as clear as I'd like, so let me try it from another way,
The question is let us say that Godess/Gods have one personality, but that the differeing aspects are slight variations on church believes?
Like in cases of the moon, what if the Godess of the moon incapases all the aspects of what is believed to be part of the different Goddesses of the moon, but the church has for some reason only selected to incorperate some of them. And I believe Mask, if they bring him back could take up V's position quite nicely, and Selune take up I's position, I mean if she did this for the elves, why not for the Drow?
I wasn't talking about doctrine, but about the deity itself. The discussion was about whether deities should balls of energy that change form, or rather have their own personalities and ideas. In this light, racial deities would embody concepts important to their race (or more general concepts, but in a light that resembles the race's idea of said concepts) and have personalities related to it and to what they represent, which shouldn't change according to just what their followers think -which is what you propose, if I understand correctly- (this would make them inconsistent, ever changing, and would drop my interest in them to 0). Just my take on this.
About Selune-Eilistraee or Mask-Vhaeraun, I've explained why those two can't be replaced by other deities in my previous post. The siblings aren't just deities of moon/dance or thievery, they stand for much more and this is why fans reacted so badly to their removal from canon. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 23:38:14
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quote:
Then there's the fact that no other deity actually carries on the battle for the drow: how would the drow know about other gods or alternative kind of life, considering the closure and utter indoctrination typical of their society. You have to actually work to spread new ideas, to make people understand. You have to send your agents, interact with drow i.e. risk, and this is something that no other deity beside E and V would do (and especially not the Seldarine, considering their actions).
Why not? Why would no other deity do this?
I was running a game a couple years ago that revolved around the party stumbling onto an agent of Asmodeus working to undermine Lolth's church and convert drow to devil worship. I see no reason why this isn't a viable plan or why another deity wouldn't attempt it.
Then there's this; it's been said that D&DNext/5e will be moving away from having deities acting directly in the mortal world. So even if Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were brought back, the very qualities that you claim(passionately if unconvincingly) make them unique, interesting characters would no longer apply as the gods' personalities matter considerably less than how they're viewed by their mortal worshipers. The gods aren't crusading for worshipers anymore. It's mortals seeking out gods. So there's nothing stopping drow from continuing to worship Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and getting powers from another deity, nothing'll be stopping them from getting powers from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, but the focus won't be on Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, it'll be on their faithful. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 23:45:25
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I can then throw the question back at you. If nothing would actually change, why then not make many fans happy and restore two characters who could add so much? Why not return them in a way to have the events in LP actually make sense?
Besides, other deities simply don't risk for drow. They don't send their agents (i.e. priests or whatever) to open their eyes, to fight for their freedom (what human or elf would do so?). It's what E and V do.
Simply, there's more hurt in not returning them than in bringing them back (actually there's none in the latter). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Then there's the fact that no other deity actually carries on the battle for the drow: how would the drow know about other gods or alternative kind of life, considering the closure and utter indoctrination typical of their society. You have to actually work to spread new ideas, to make people understand. You have to send your agents, interact with drow i.e. risk, and this is something that no other deity beside E and V would do (and especially not the Seldarine, considering their actions).
Why not? Why would no other deity do this?
I was running a game a couple years ago that revolved around the party stumbling onto an agent of Asmodeus working to undermine Lolth's church and convert drow to devil worship. I see no reason why this isn't a viable plan or why another deity wouldn't attempt it.
Then there's this; it's been said that D&DNext/5e will be moving away from having deities acting directly in the mortal world. So even if Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were brought back, the very qualities that you claim(passionately if unconvincingly) make them unique, interesting characters would no longer apply as the gods' personalities matter considerably less than how they're viewed by their mortal worshipers. The gods aren't crusading for worshipers anymore. It's mortals seeking out gods. So there's nothing stopping drow from continuing to worship Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and getting powers from another deity, nothing'll be stopping them from getting powers from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, but the focus won't be on Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, it'll be on their faithful.
I think the issue here is no god/godess has done it that we know of, largely because for the most part, they either believed that it would be difficult, or that the nitch they wished to fill was already taken. Now, that Vand I aren't there, this is no longer the case. Now, that they are a one Godess society, it's easier, as there will still be the same level of those that are disinterested with the current state of affairs. Take Homeland for instance, Drizzt's father was fed up with the current system, but saw that there was nothing he could do about it, a covert agent of another faith could have found a convert in that fellow. In one of the novels someone says that the only to escape being under the thumb of a matren is to become a mercenary, a merchant, or a powerful wizard. Given the number of male merchants, and the number of drow in that mercany group, there's plenty of disinterested drow, that we know of.
Truely, I think that no other God has gone to convert the Drow, is because it's not something many authors/ game designers have thought of. There are plenty of faiths that could appeal to a Drow mind set and still keep the bulk of themevil. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I can then throw the question back at you. If nothing would actually change, why then not make many fans happy and restore two characters who could add so much? Why not return them in a way to have the events in LP actually make sense?
Besides, other deities simply don't risk for drow. They don't send their agents (i.e. priests or whatever) to open their eyes, to fight for their freedom (what human or elf would do so?). It's what E and V do.
Simply, there's more hurt in not returning them than in bringing them back (actually there's none in the latter).
Because as silly as the deaths of them were in it's exacution, the return will be more than likely equally so. At least if they return as Gods, if they return as simply powerful mortals and have to fight for their devinity, that an interesting plot could, and I emphasize could, come from it. And the return of both of these beings doesn't mean that other Gods couldn't be brought in to fill the vacum, in fact, to me it would be necesary to add a much needed level of flavor. The level of accomplishment can be made all that more complete if this is the case. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I can then throw the question back at you. If nothing would actually change, why then not make many fans happy and restore two characters who could add so much? Why not return them in a way to have the events in LP actually make sense?
Besides, other deities simply don't risk for drow. They don't send their agents (i.e. priests or whatever) to open their eyes, to fight for their freedom (what human or elf would do so?). It's what E and V do.
Simply, there's more hurt in not returning them than in bringing them back (actually there's none in the latter).
Well, as I said I don't actively oppose bringing them back even if I don't support it.
I think we're coming at the issue from two different angles; you're looking at it for what they do for the drow, I'm looking at it for what they do for non-drow. Which is nothing.
I'd like to move past racially specific pantheons and racially specific gods in all but the lowest levels of divinity; demigods/exarchs. My problem with E & V is that the only unique aspect they bring to the table is for the drow specifically. So if they do come back I would want it to be as very minor deities because that's what they are, niche deities. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:28:11
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@Sightless Not at all. The authors of the Menzo book came up with an elegant solution which would give a sense to the events in LP: E, who merged with V, gave away her divinity to 'redeem' the drow. After that both came back as archfey, still continuing their quest. Now, with the sundering, they could be promoted back to deities or remain as archfey (honestly, I don't really care). How would this be silly?
Also, why use other gods in E and V place? Why would this give depth, when the siblings do that well enough already?
Not to mention that, talking about silliness, since Ao's gonna resurrect so many deities by writing their names on his notepad (cheap, eh?), I see no reason why would two so well received deity be left out.
@CoA: Personally, I have no problem with them being demipowers, as long as they are there. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Oct 2012 03:09:48 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 01:37:02
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[quote]Originally posted by Irennan
Not at all. The authors of the Menzo book came up with an elegant solution which would give a sense to the events in LP: E, who merged with V, gave away her divinity to 'redeem' the drow. After that both came back as archfey, still continuing their quest. Now, with the sundering, they could be promoted back to deities or remain as archfey (honestly, I don't really care). How would this be silly?
The reason why she died wasn't silly, the methodology of her death seemed, to me rather podantic.
Purely opinion.
And note what I said, it could be done well, there's plenty of room to create something epic with them coming back and having to work for their devinity, as apposed to Ao simply saying "your Gods again." It would cheepen the sacrifice in so many ways. yes, Ao could indeed do what your suggesting, and WOTC may do this, but I personally hope that they do not.
Note, I have not spoken against there coming back, or their becoming Gods again, its just that things would be much more satisfying if they have to work for it. Do you understand me better now?
By the way, I felt the same way when they brought back Bane, I felt that BAne should have to endure something, go through some process where he triumphs to become a God again, not "Oh shit, Bane's back."
Will be anoyed if WOTC doesn't follow this method and justs brings back Vand I as Gods, no. And perhaps silly was not the best word to convey my point, it just seems that they can give the fan base so much more if they go one route over another.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 01:47:35
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(cheap, eh?)
Yes it would be cheep. Extremly so, and I strongly hope that WOTC doesn't go that route, as I said in my last post. And if people will look again at what I said, I mentioned that other Gods should be brought in, in addition to Vand I. First of all, there's been a century where they were gone. This creates a power vacume, we already have been shown that there Drow that aren't happy with Lolth, who can't worship V and I, because there gone. The redemed can push worshiping the elven system, but many Drow wont go for that because of long standing propaganda against those Gods. Logically speaking, other Gods, both good and evil, can see an opertunity for the possible gaining of followers and an opertunity to chip away at Lolth indirectly. There is no reason why this shouldn't have happened during the hundred year jump where V and I were out of the picture.
None.
this is not my opinion, this me stating a logical conjunction based on the facts provided by every source about Gods that have been provided. You would also do something that many individuals have already stated they would like to see, some depth added back to the Drow, besides simply as Lolth followers bent on doing Lolth stuff. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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