| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 20:08:43
|
While reading the latest of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles, I came across this interesting tidbit of lore from everyone's favorite unreliable narrator, Elminster: Given their wrath, anyone with coin enough and persuasive words—which does, yes, lead back to Sembia, and the mages of Shade who have become as weak as I have, reduced to tricking others into doing their work for them. Manipulation—and the gullible—are truly everywhere.”
So, what's happened to Shade that this might be so? How have they been stripped of their Art and power, I wonder?
EDIT: These articles are written in batches as I understand it, and turned in all at once before being published as the months go by. That said, could this be a first example of Ed "steering the Realms" in the manner of someone who's got some creative control over the Realms for 5E?
|
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 06 Jun 2012 20:50:27
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:01:00
|
| AFAIK when the weave collapsed the shadow weave did too |
 |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:04:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
While reading the latest of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles, I came across this interesting tidbit of lore from everyone's favorite unreliable narrator, Elminster: Given their wrath, anyone with coin enough and persuasive words—which does, yes, lead back to Sembia, and the mages of Shade who have become as weak as I have, reduced to tricking others into doing their work for them. Manipulation—and the gullible—are truly everywhere.”
So, what's happened to Shade that this might be so? How have they been stripped of their Art and power, I wonder?
Hmm. Upon reading the excerpts of Paul's new novel, Godborn, which will be released this November, I didn't get the feeling that the Shadovar were considerably weakened. So, I don't know, it's too early to say, and we have too little info to base our judgement on. I'm fine with them getting weak...so long as it's just a momentary weakness (like what Szass Tam and most archwizards of note experienced when the Spellplague hit Faerun).
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
AFAIK when the weave collapsed the shadow weave did too
Shade survived that catastrophe. Since it wasn't revealed how, we're left with making our own conjectures. I myself have one: Telamont's contingencies involving alternative sources of magic that is funneled through the city's mythallar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jun 2012 21:07:15 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:18:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
AFAIK when the weave collapsed the shadow weave did too
That's what I understood to be true too.
For me the erasing of Anauroch seemed like a pretty big achievement in the wake of the Spellplague, so it appeared that Shade recovered faster than other groups of mages in the Realms.
My first thought was that this effort might have driven them to the point of exhaustion and/or powerlessness. However if, like Elminster and the Chosen, their connection to the Shadow Weave was so intimate as to strip them of nearly all their power when it fell then I begin to wonder if the Shadovar haven't been burning the candle at both ends to effect such great change so relatively quickly. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:25:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Shade survived that catastrophe. Since it wasn't revealed how, we're left with making our own conjectures. I myself have one: Telamont's contingencies involving alternative sources of magic that is funneled through the city's mythallar.
I'd figured they might survive through alternate contingencies too, but my guess at the time was that they'd have access to knowledge about old/other ways of doing magic from the time of Mystril and perhaps even before that may not be as effecient as Weave-based magic, but that would work just fine in the Realms with no Weave present. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:39:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
AFAIK when the weave collapsed the shadow weave did too
That's what I understood to be true too.
For me the erasing of Anauroch seemed like a pretty big achievement in the wake of the Spellplague, so it appeared that Shade recovered faster than other groups of mages in the Realms.
My first thought was that this effort might have driven them to the point of exhaustion and/or powerlessness. However if, like Elminster and the Chosen, their connection to the Shadow Weave was so intimate as to strip them of nearly all their power when it fell then I begin to wonder if the Shadovar haven't been burning the candle at both ends to effect such great change so relatively quickly.
I doubt that. They were able to transform Anauroch into the fertile land it used to be during the 3E, and that's right before the Spellplague. Besides, if they became so weak, they would not have been able to bind the archdevil of Cania, Mephistopheles---let alone continue their campaign for world domination.
Perhaps Ed was referring to a different kind of weakness. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jun 2012 21:40:08 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:54:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
While reading the latest of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles, I came across this interesting tidbit of lore from everyone's favorite unreliable narrator, Elminster: Given their wrath, anyone with coin enough and persuasive words—which does, yes, lead back to Sembia, and the mages of Shade who have become as weak as I have, reduced to tricking others into doing their work for them. Manipulation—and the gullible—are truly everywhere.”
So, what's happened to Shade that this might be so? How have they been stripped of their Art and power, I wonder?
EDIT: These articles are written in batches as I understand it, and turned in all at once before being published as the months go by. That said, could this be a first example of Ed "steering the Realms" in the manner of someone who's got some creative control over the Realms for 5E?
I'm thinking that they're giving Ed more input, as opposed to giving him creative control. Ed hasn't had creative control since the setting was published, and it's rather unlikely that they'd give such control to someone who is, in official terms, a free-lancer.
I'm also thinking that if Ed says that Shade has been weakened, it's more a reflection of a change that was decided at WotC and then shared with Ed, instead of him unilaterally deciding to change something. Ed's a gentleman, from everything I've seen (including my own communications with him), and would not be the sole person pushing something like that as a change.
All that aside, I'm very much in favor of Shade being weakened. I've long complained about their overwhelming prominence, and would like to see them reduced to being "just" another power group, no stronger than Zhentil Keep at its height, or Thay, or the Twisted Rune, or the Rundeen, or any of the other power groups that have been largely disregarded since the advent of 3E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 22:01:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They were able to transform Anauroch into the fertile land it used to be during the 3E, and that's right before the Spellplague.
 I thought that happened in the century after the Spellplague? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 19:00:19
|
The tranformation was begun at the very beginning of 3e.
Althouth the Spellplague 'probably' nerfed much of their power, ANY major (permanent) effect put into place before Mystra's fall will continue (although in some cases, the magic became unstable).
My Opinion: (because I have so many to spare)
Their 'loss of power' is most-likely due to several factors; attrition (they probably haven't lost numbers like this since their wars with the Malaugrym), the collapse of the Shadoweave, and spreading themselves too thin (called the 'empire effect'). They used to keep a half-dozen princes on any one important project - now they can barely spare one for each of their ventures.
Further Speculation: They grabbed Sembia too soon, and the overhead is killing them (in some cases, literally). Its the reason why McGarthur said we could never take china, or rather, we could take it, but never hold it. The resources necessary just become unmanageable after a certain point.
So the Shades did loose much power and man-power, and they now have to spread what they have around on an area far greater then the one city they had originally. If they went back to just being the Shade Enclave, and nothing else (concentrating all their remaining power in one place), they would still be quite formidable.
As I said, just how I see things falling-out... YMMV. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jun 2012 19:02:52 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 22:42:34
|
Hopefully this is WotC turning the Shades into just another evil group.
Shades were kool at first then became annoying.
Or this is Elminster being unreliable and shooting off at the mouth... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 01:04:23
|
quote:
Jeremy Grenemyerquote:
_Jarlaxle_
AFAIK when the weave collapsed the shadow weave did too
That's what I understood to be true too.
For me the erasing of Anauroch seemed like a pretty big achievement in the wake of the Spellplague, so it appeared that Shade recovered faster than other groups of mages in the Realms.
On the other hand, the Spellplague may have disrupted or neutralized the phaerimm lifedrain magics which originally formed (and perhaps maintained) the Anauroch as a lifeless desert. The Anauroch might have simply returned to something approaching its original fertile state, although it's true that the efforts of the Shadovar might have accelerated the process. Is it heretical to accuse the Shadovar of wielding science instead of magic in their later terraforming efforts, especially if the magic failed? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 01:44:04
|
The Shade empire could be a fun place to adventure, I'm hoping they make it that way for 5E. I could picture a few cities on the shores of that lake full of intrigue, dark imperial soldiers of the Shade empire, and imperial toadies all fighting for the favor of those who live in the floating city, who cling to power mostly due to engendered fear from decades past. I think the turn-off for Shade was that they came off as so powerful you couldn't do anything about it, heck half a dozen Chosen couldn't outright obliterate the place. Scaling back their power some, which seems to fit with the way the Spellplague went down seems like a good idea.
And here's another thing to consider. With the Shade empire weakened and the phaerimm mostly annihilated...wouldn't the Anauroch Desert area be the next great Seizing...much like Myth Drannor was when the ruins were left unguarded by the elves? Granted they've had a century or so to loot places, but one would think there would be hordes of adventurers descending on old ruins of netheril because the desert is more hospitable and all the loot in the various ruins...old netherese magics at that would be like a beacon to adventurers. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 01:48:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
All that aside, I'm very much in favor of Shade being weakened.
I just hope this will not be another unexplained/unsupported occurrence -- that's mentioned just once and left without further detail. The Realms has seen too much of that already, and despite how prominent and expansive the Shadovar have become... it would be a disservice to all the lore that currently supports them, for their "fall" to be reduced to a mere footnote. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 01:53:25
|
They need to find a balance - somewhere between "no explanation" and endless RSE's has to be a happy medium. Why they have come to the conclusion that it has to be 'all or nothing' is beyond me. I think some of the names being tossed-around (and most especially Ed) can do just that.
Side Note: I don't think I've felt THIS positive about both D&D and the Forgotten Realms since the advent of 3e. I'm literally walking around my house singing (much to the displeasure of my family). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 03:41:08
|
| I still love me some 1e/2e gaming in the Forgotten Realms...I can't help it...those were the "Golden Years" for peach lore! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 03:54:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
On the other hand, the Spellplague may have disrupted or neutralized the phaerimm lifedrain magics which originally formed (and perhaps maintained) the Anauroch as a lifeless desert.
Ooh, good point! Hadn't even thought of that.
Makes me wonder what other long-lasting magic effects (like those holding demons or other terrors at bay) fell in the wake of the Spellplague?
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
And here's another thing to consider. With the Shade empire weakened and the phaerimm mostly annihilated...wouldn't the Anauroch Desert area be the next great Seizing...much like Myth Drannor was when the ruins were left unguarded by the elves? Granted they've had a century or so to loot places, but one would think there would be hordes of adventurers descending on old ruins of netheril because the desert is more hospitable and all the loot in the various ruins...old netherese magics at that would be like a beacon to adventurers.
Are you reading this WotC?
This seems like a great lead in for the 5E Realms Hardback. Give us the ruins of Anauria, Asram, Hlondath, the Goblin Marches...all that good stuff. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 10:21:29
|
The weakening of the Shadovar is most likely a case of attrition, as seen in the novels the Shades are recruiting any old half demon or assassin into their ranks.
This is a natural consequence of the aggressive empire building they have been doing ever since their return and not to mention the constant warfare.
While their weakening is inevitable i hope it is not taken too far and the Shadovar reduced to yet another evil organisation, the realms is a lot more interesting with an overwhelmingly powerful evil empire to battle against.
An enemy who you can respect is an enemy worth fighting. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 05:59:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They were able to transform Anauroch into the fertile land it used to be during the 3E, and that's right before the Spellplague.
I thought that happened in the century after the Spellplague?
I gather you haven't read Return of the Archwizards? The Shadovar melted the High Ice using shadow mantle, which trapped the very heat from the sun. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 06:21:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Shades did loose much power and man-power, and they now have to spread what they have around on an area far greater then the one city they had originally. If they went back to just being the Shade Enclave, and nothing else (concentrating all their remaining power in one place), they would still be quite formidable.
As I said, just how I see things falling-out... YMMV.
I have a theory...
Brennus, in The Twilight War, once asked if the Telamont he's facing was the same father he knew...
Telamont must have recognized the problem of ruling a huge empire with so few to do it. I think he long ago discovered a way to replicate himself (sorry, I don't like to use 'clone,' for obvious reasons), which naturally altered his personality to some extent. It could also be one of the reasons he fearlessly confronted and bound Mephistopheles to get a bit of information which he could have extracted from somewhere or someone else who's less likely to pose a serious threat to his life. Mephistopheles may not be as powerful in Faerun as he is in his own domain, but he's formidable nonetheless. (He even brushed aside Brennus' wards as though they were mere cobwebs.) Telamont No. 1 didn't fear for his life because he's got aspects (replicas, No. 2 to 100, maybe) that would automatically rise the moment his existence ceased to be. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Jun 2012 06:23:46 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 16:22:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Shades did loose much power and man-power, and they now have to spread what they have around on an area far greater then the one city they had originally. If they went back to just being the Shade Enclave, and nothing else (concentrating all their remaining power in one place), they would still be quite formidable.
As I said, just how I see things falling-out... YMMV.
I have a theory...
Brennus, in The Twilight War, once asked if the Telamont he's facing was the same father he knew...
Telamont must have recognized the problem of ruling a huge empire with so few to do it. I think he long ago discovered a way to replicate himself (sorry, I don't like to use 'clone,' for obvious reasons), which naturally altered his personality to some extent. It could also be one of the reasons he fearlessly confronted and bound Mephistopheles to get a bit of information which he could have extracted from somewhere or someone else who's less likely to pose a serious threat to his life. Mephistopheles may not be as powerful in Faerun as he is in his own domain, but he's formidable nonetheless. (He even brushed aside Brennus' wards as though they were mere cobwebs.) Telamont No. 1 didn't fear for his life because he's got aspects (replicas, No. 2 to 100, maybe) that would automatically rise the moment his existence ceased to be.
So Telamont is Manshoon mark II? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 16:26:17
|
I would say that Manshoon actually fell upon a spell that was used long ago in Netheril.
|
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 17:14:05
|
I like the line of reasoning, but because of what he is (as opposed to who he is), I think its more a matter of 'the shadow' becoming a part of him. Unlike his underlings, he no longer has to battle shadow - he has become it (or rather, he and his shadow have become one).
So he has become something akin to a shadow-lich (arch-shadow is already in use). He has moved beyond the normal state of mortality and is now at the exarch level (which doesn't mean he has to be a Chosen... not every exarch is a Chosen).
So he's basically become a Shade-version of Larloch (power-wise). He needn't fear dying, because he will just reform from his shadow. The only problem is, each time he must do that (and he's probably done it a number of times, especially battling the Malaugrym), he becomes a little less 'him' and a little more 'shadow'. His connection to the mortal world has slipped away, and now he's just an cold, logical mastermind.
All IMO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 17:36:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Shades did loose much power and man-power, and they now have to spread what they have around on an area far greater then the one city they had originally. If they went back to just being the Shade Enclave, and nothing else (concentrating all their remaining power in one place), they would still be quite formidable.
As I said, just how I see things falling-out... YMMV.
I have a theory...
Brennus, in The Twilight War, once asked if the Telamont he's facing was the same father he knew...
Telamont must have recognized the problem of ruling a huge empire with so few to do it. I think he long ago discovered a way to replicate himself (sorry, I don't like to use 'clone,' for obvious reasons), which naturally altered his personality to some extent. It could also be one of the reasons he fearlessly confronted and bound Mephistopheles to get a bit of information which he could have extracted from somewhere or someone else who's less likely to pose a serious threat to his life. Mephistopheles may not be as powerful in Faerun as he is in his own domain, but he's formidable nonetheless. (He even brushed aside Brennus' wards as though they were mere cobwebs.) Telamont No. 1 didn't fear for his life because he's got aspects (replicas, No. 2 to 100, maybe) that would automatically rise the moment his existence ceased to be.
So Telamont is Manshoon mark II?
Shadeshoon! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 17:38:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like the line of reasoning, but because of what he is (as opposed to who he is), I think its more a matter of 'the shadow' becoming a part of him. Unlike his underlings, he no longer has to battle shadow - he has become it (or rather, he and his shadow have become one).
So he has become something akin to a shadow-lich (arch-shadow is already in use). He has moved beyond the normal state of mortality and is now at the exarch level (which doesn't mean he has to be a Chosen... not every exarch is a Chosen).
So he's basically become a Shade-version of Larloch (power-wise). He needn't fear dying, because he will just reform from his shadow. The only problem is, each time he must do that (and he's probably done it a number of times, especially battling the Malaugrym), he becomes a little less 'him' and a little more 'shadow'. His connection to the mortal world has slipped away, and now he's just an cold, logical mastermind.
All IMO, of course.
Perhaps even a sort of twisted version of the Elfshadow from Song & Swords? Just got done re-reading that one now that I have the entire series maybe I can finish it.
This line of reasoning made me think of that. :) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 18:43:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I gather you haven't read Return of the Archwizards? The Shadovar melted the High Ice using shadow mantle, which trapped the very heat from the sun.
Right. However that process helped to get things started. It didn't simply erase Anourach in an instant or, so far as I know, a few years. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 01:37:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
All that aside, I'm very much in favor of Shade being weakened.
I just hope this will not be another unexplained/unsupported occurrence -- that's mentioned just once and left without further detail. The Realms has seen too much of that already, and despite how prominent and expansive the Shadovar have become... it would be a disservice to all the lore that currently supports them, for their "fall" to be reduced to a mere footnote.
Just being optimistic...I think that's unlikely to happen. Whether they're really magically weakened or not, we will almost certainly get some details about it, as Paul's next trilogy would partly feature the Shadovar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 01:42:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Shades did loose much power and man-power, and they now have to spread what they have around on an area far greater then the one city they had originally. If they went back to just being the Shade Enclave, and nothing else (concentrating all their remaining power in one place), they would still be quite formidable.
As I said, just how I see things falling-out... YMMV.
I have a theory...
Brennus, in The Twilight War, once asked if the Telamont he's facing was the same father he knew...
Telamont must have recognized the problem of ruling a huge empire with so few to do it. I think he long ago discovered a way to replicate himself (sorry, I don't like to use 'clone,' for obvious reasons), which naturally altered his personality to some extent. It could also be one of the reasons he fearlessly confronted and bound Mephistopheles to get a bit of information which he could have extracted from somewhere or someone else who's less likely to pose a serious threat to his life. Mephistopheles may not be as powerful in Faerun as he is in his own domain, but he's formidable nonetheless. (He even brushed aside Brennus' wards as though they were mere cobwebs.) Telamont No. 1 didn't fear for his life because he's got aspects (replicas, No. 2 to 100, maybe) that would automatically rise the moment his existence ceased to be.
So Telamont is Manshoon mark II?
Or Manshoon once stumbled upon a Netherese spellbook detailing the means to replicate oneself. And he probably just made a variation of it.
Given that Telamont is thousands of years older than Manshoon, it's possible it's Manshoon who "copied" such replicating process from Telamont. Or that they learned it from the same unknown Netherese source and made their own versions of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I gather you haven't read Return of the Archwizards? The Shadovar melted the High Ice using shadow mantle, which trapped the very heat from the sun.
Right. However that process helped to get things started. It didn't simply erase Anourach in an instant or, so far as I know, a few years.
They had years, more than a century, in fact, to hasten the process through their magic. That's more than enough time to transform Anauroch. Plus, it helped that no one was actively stopping them from doing so. (The Chosen learned their lesson; so did their neighbors---Waterdeep, Cormyr, and Evareska.)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So he's basically become a Shade-version of Larloch (power-wise). He needn't fear dying, because he will just reform from his shadow. The only problem is, each time he must do that (and he's probably done it a number of times, especially battling the Malaugrym), he becomes a little less 'him' and a little more 'shadow'. His connection to the mortal world has slipped away, and now he's just an cold, logical mastermind.
You have the right of it. He himself admitted that he's no longer human. He lost his 'humanity' the moment he fully embraced his shadow. Though it wasn't really a poor bargain. He got way more powerful after. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Jun 2012 02:04:34 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 01:59:51
|
| Ah, OK. I must have misinterpreted you earlier. So it did take the better part of a century to clear out Anourach. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 02:23:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would say that Manshoon actually fell upon a spell that was used long ago in Netheril.
I'm not so certain of that.
Considering that Manshoon's Stasis Clone spell is a casting of his own devising [as deemed by Ed], I'm fully confident with the possibility that Manshoon can, and in fact has, developed new and expanded uses of other spells based on nothing more than his own research and experimentation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 02:40:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would say that Manshoon actually fell upon a spell that was used long ago in Netheril.
I'm not so certain of that.
Considering that Manshoon's Stasis Clone spell is a casting of his own devising [as deemed by Ed], I'm fully confident with the possibility that Manshoon can, and in fact has, developed new and expanded uses of other spells based on nothing more than his own research and experimentation.
Does that preclude him from taking from ancient magics ideas that he then uses to create new spells?
Aside from that, my only real point was that Manshoon would have been the "Mark II" and not the other way around. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 02:57:38
|
I'm inclined to agree. Not underestimating Manshoon's intelligence...But given their difference in age, power level, and birth origin, one is more tempted to say 'tis probably Telamont who discovered such process first. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The Shadovar reduced to almost nothing?
