| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 06:37:37
But instead of elves, this topic is about their pantheon, the Seldarine. I have discovered that several people dislike the Seldarine--of course, not everyone likes elves. Let's try not to be rude on this, but I am curious as to what other people think. We know the gods will be less active post-Sundering, but they'll still be there. As someone who likes the elven pantheon, the Rise of the Underdark and the Sundering has me wondering what is in store for the Seldarine. We have been discussing the Dark Seldarine (drow pantheon) in another thread, but you can bring it up here too if you feel it is relevant.
Ideally, I would like the Seldarine to be left alone. In other words, don't mess with the pantheon. Keep them as they are. No killing, no more aspects, etc. And for the drow pantheon, I would like to see the return of E and V. But I'm curious as to your thoughts: what do you think will become of the Seldarine post-RotU and post-Sundering?
Let's try and be civil here. I certain have my opinions, and I know you all do too, but let's be polite. If you feel like you need to go on a tirade, you may, but be nice about it, please.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:54:31
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If drow are so brainwashed as to believe everything Lolth teaches is right(a debatable point), then why would any but the most remarkably insane of them worship Eilistraee to begin with? From the drow's perspective she'd be no different from any other good aligned deity. With Vhaerun you at least have the logic of males, bitter at their treatment at the hand of the females, would want to rebel in some way- kick a dog and eventually it will bite you. But Eilistraee's teachings are every bit as alien to drow culture as Torm's.
Ahem, that was my point. They worship Eilistraee because she fights and puts so much effort in changing their mind, to break the brainwashing. Also of all beings, E is the most fitting in this role, considering her story and what she gives away in order to carry on with her quest (she is actually doing this for nothing but love of her people, as she could simply ignore the issue). This doesn't mean that there isn't place for other deities as well, some drow already worship 'standard' gods, like Drizzt with Mielikki. Heck if the Dark Maiden was back as archfey or exarch, she could even introduce the drow to other deities (like Selune, or the Seldarine), so that they would still work with her -keeping her struggle and the depth it adds- but get spells from other gods -removing the (non existent IMO) problem that apparently bothers some people so much of her being a niche deity-.
quote:
And the reason I keep bringing up the city of Undrek'Thoz is specifically because Lolth's influence is already limited there. Her church isn't in power in that city, it's barely tolerated. The fact that such an uprising happened to begin with, let alone succeeded, is a major hole in your brainwashing point.
And my point was that the rebellion was caused by power issue, by a who dominates who matter, rather than by drow suddenly coming to know and understand that they don't have to backstab each other in order to live, refusing Lolth for that reason. This is still the influence of the Spider Queen's dogma, which brings to what E does.
quote:
Still, I don't have a problem with Eilistraee being brought back so long as it's as a demi-power or archfey, because no one other than drow have any reason to worship her. And even then, such a small portion of the drow.
I don't know. I still believe racially specific pantheons are a bad idea and going back to them is a step in the wrong direction. And my fear is that bring E and V back is going to reinforce it.
Not every being has to be universal. Fantasy deities are not like RL ones, they have their own personalities, goals etc... (yes, they still have it even if the focus isn't on them. Also, there should be a compromise between meddling in people's life and behaving stupidly, and not intervening at all) and in this light niche deities (or archfey or exarchs) totally make sense and add flavor, especially in a polytheistic setting like the FR. NOT bringing E and V back in whatever form would be a step in the wrong direction: as I said, they are what characterize and distinguish realmsian drow and many, many people enjoy them. The way of 5E is inclusiveness and giving choices, not taking them away: the so much used 'lore is yours to choose from' phrase is valid also in the sense that people can choose to ignore some elements, not only in the sense that they are free to ignore the destruction of what they hold dear.
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| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:26:27
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Racial ideologies certainly color interpretations of deities; what they represent to a certain race, how they're worshiped, even the name they're called by. But actually having separate individual gods for all of that clutters the setting rather than enriches it, in my opinion.
And people don't know for certain the gods exist or if they do exist whether or not they're actually gods or just individuals who've attained great power and demand worship of mortal beings, or whether it's just one all powerful being posing as multiple gods for his own amusement. Clerics tell them this or that but clerics often contradict one another, even within a single clergy. Clerics of creatures who are decidedly not gods such as arch devils and demon princes, or even powerful dragons, can still grant divine spells. Even clerics who worship no god but instead conform to a philosophy or belief system get divine powers. To the layman, which one of these preachers and prophets is right will vary from person to person. I would imagine there's still a considerable number of worshipers who believe Vhaerun at least is still alive and find reports of his death to be simple lothite propaganda.
I think at this point, after all the years the Realms has been around, it's pretty clear the gods DO exist. What's varied is their participation. If it was suddenly revealed that the gods were not gods but infact very powerful archfey or something, that would go comepletely against lore and be a jab at all the authors and designers who've used the gods over the years. It would completely mess with the events in books like Evermeet and the Avatar series. I think it's pretty clear they are gods and that they exist. People may not like them being "too involved" in the Realms, but one can't deny the past happened, and that past involved the gods, so, in the way I see it, at least, they are gods. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 03:06:26
Actually, I see no clutter at all. Having only one universal pantheon would do one thing and one thing only- it would make the Realms even MORE like Greyhawk than it was going from 3.5 into 4th ed. We already had that trend , which has continued since then, and it has gone over like a lead balloon. We don't need GH-style "one-size-fits-all" deities in FR. We need the racial pantheons to enrich and bring choice and flavor to the setting, to make each race separate and unique! |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 01:05:44
Racial ideologies certainly color interpretations of deities; what they represent to a certain race, how they're worshiped, even the name they're called by. But actually having separate individual gods for all of that clutters the setting rather than enriches it, in my opinion.
And people don't know for certain the gods exist or if they do exist whether or not they're actually gods or just individuals who've attained great power and demand worship of mortal beings, or whether it's just one all powerful being posing as multiple gods for his own amusement. Clerics tell them this or that but clerics often contradict one another, even within a single clergy. Clerics of creatures who are decidedly not gods such as arch devils and demon princes, or even powerful dragons, can still grant divine spells. Even clerics who worship no god but instead conform to a philosophy or belief system get divine powers. To the layman, which one of these preachers and prophets is right will vary from person to person. I would imagine there's still a considerable number of worshipers who believe Vhaerun at least is still alive and find reports of his death to be simple lothite propaganda. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 00:40:15
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
About other deities answering prayers: I -personally- don't like this. As I said before in this thread, one of the things that makes me interested in deities is that it's not really a question of faith. People who choose to dedicate themselves as clerics to a 'divine cause' do so because they share it and want to work for it with their deity, as his/her/its agents on the prime. The last thing I want to see is someone wondering about the existence of his/her god, or 'feeding' some other deity they didn't choose to work with.
I agree with this, though I do think deities answereing prayers is another way of knowing they exist, but as I've said in other threads, one of the great things about the Realms (to me at least), is that people don't have to -guess- at the gods' existence. They -know-. It's why the death of one affects people of Faeraun. If E and V's worship was all faith-based, then it wouldn't matter so much if they died, because drow wouldn't know of their existence one way or the other. But even if the gods aren't NPCs, they are still there, and people know that.
@AoC: having racial-specific deities add flavor to the Realms. If it was all "one pantheon", then, at least IMO, it would decrease the richness of the Realms. And as I've said, it's not as though a person -can't- worship a deity of another pantheon, but we also have to consider racial ideology. Everyone is an individual, be they elf, drow, human, whatever, and they will have a certain set of morals. But racial ideologies vary. Humans and elves, for example think differently on certain matters, and their deities reflect that (this is another issue I have about the aspect deal). Could an elf worship Lathander/Amanautaur? Yes, just as it is possible for a human to worship Corellon (both of them would probably appeal to bards, for instance). But other racial-specific deities don't cross over quite as well, so to me, racial-specific deities make sense.
And as Irenan has pointed out, drow are especially tricky. Are they the only such races? No, but the other races didn't have all but one of their deities killed off (I'm not including Ghaunadaur). The drow pantheon stopped being a pantheon, and became monotheistic, and the city you brought up, Undrek'Trez, would be a good place for V and E to sink some fingers in.
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 22:44:40
quote:
Yes, but drow would only choose deities who fit their 'default' style of life, i.e. the one Lolth imposed to them. They would deem any deities whose dogma doesn't include 'what gives value to people is the power they have on others' weak. Such kind of concepts would be alien to them because of the brainwashing they received. This is why someone like E, who has changing their mind as goal, and who fights for it is just appropriate and fitting. Other deities simply have different goals, sending missionaries in drow cities would be just too risky for their followers (unless in such city the influence of Lolth is already limited), and not likely to pay off in terms of number of followers they'd receive (in fact, no 'goodly' deity actually does that, AFAIK. And no, unless Lolth's influence was already limited, drow wouldn't flock to anything that isn't Lolth. They do believe that what she teaches them is right. You have to struggle to make them understand. Also, seeing that you're insisting to give the drow a 'standard' goodly deity, why not just restore E instead? I mean, drow would still get the -purely appaerent, as I see it- Drizzt clones issue and stuff with any other deity, so why not? The Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord are widely popular, and are valid characters so it'd totally make sense and be profitable for WotC to bring 'em back in canon).
If drow are so brainwashed as to believe everything Lolth teaches is right(a debatable point), then why would any but the most remarkably insane of them worship Eilistraee to begin with? From the drow's perspective she'd be no different from any other good aligned deity. With Vhaerun you at least have the logic of males, bitter at their treatment at the hand of the females, would want to rebel in some way- kick a dog and eventually it will bite you. But Eilistraee's teachings are every bit as alien to drow culture as Torm's.
And the reason I keep bringing up the city of Undrek'Thoz is specifically because Lolth's influence is already limited there. Her church isn't in power in that city, it's barely tolerated. The fact that such an uprising happened to begin with, let alone succeeded, is a major hole in your brainwashing point.
Still, I don't have a problem with Eilistraee being brought back so long as it's as a demi-power or archfey, because no one other than drow have any reason to worship her. And even then, such a small portion of the drow.
I don't know. I still believe racially specific pantheons are a bad idea and going back to them is a step in the wrong direction. And my fear is that bring E and V back is going to reinforce it. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 14:43:25
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Hm I see your point there about drow trying to rebel to Lolth. Nonetheless, this doesn't point to drow spontaneously seeking alternatives to their common behavior, and trying to live a 'normal' life, instead of always lunging for power for its own sake, which is the effect of Lolth's doctrine.
Which brings to the point of E and why drow deserve different deities. The answer is that I'd be happy if deities like her were there also for -say- orcs or duergar (I'd like E anyway even if she was an orc), but those races are not in the same situation as drow. They are brainwashed into believing the backstabbing life where the individual has no intrinsic value is the only one possible (and potential rebellion to Lolth are led by that: hunger for power and social status, which is -as I said- the influence of their education), and not really given a choice in that regard, where -say- orcs live as they please (AFAIK).
And again, E was surely introduced on the wave of good drow popularity, but she has her own lore, adds depth, flavor and a struggle for freedom which just fits the dark elves. She's not an excuse for Drizzt's clones: I've already explained why, and they don't need any in order to be played
I think you underestimate just how infectious new religious ideas can be, especially when the deities in question are certainly real and actively send visions or agents to potential followers. In a drow society such as Udrek'Thoz, for instance, not only would I expect petitioners from other deities to be sending missionaries in droves, I'd expect the drow population to be flocking to them just to be a part of something that *isn't* Loth's church.
Yes, but drow would only choose deities who fit their 'default' style of life, i.e. the one Lolth imposed to them. They would deem any deities whose dogma doesn't include 'what gives value to people is the power they have on others' weak. Such kind of concepts would be alien to them because of the brainwashing they received. This is why someone like E, who has changing their mind as goal, and who fights for it is just appropriate and fitting. Other deities simply have different goals, sending missionaries in drow cities would be just too risky for their followers (unless in such city the influence of Lolth is already limited), and not likely to pay off in terms of number of followers they'd receive (in fact, no 'goodly' deity actually does that, AFAIK. And no, unless Lolth's influence was already limited, drow wouldn't flock to anything that isn't Lolth. They do believe that what she teaches them is right. You have to struggle to make them understand. Also, seeing that you're insisting to give the drow a 'standard' goodly deity, why not just restore E instead? I mean, drow would still get the -purely appaerent, as I see it- Drizzt clones issue and stuff with any other deity, so why not? The Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord are widely popular, and are valid characters so it'd totally make sense and be profitable for WotC to bring 'em back in canon).
quote:
quote:
My guess would be that unlike all of the other races you named, dark elves did not begin evil in the FR creation stories. Therefore, the possibility of redemption is interesting.
Also, I vastly prefer the racial pantheons to the aspects concept. I prefer the Gruumish that hates all non-orcs to the new, Talos-Gruumish merge etc. Furthermore, removing the other drow gods in Realms, just brings Realms in line with Greyhawk and I believe Dragonlance(if another scribe could correct me on the Dragonlance part that would be great). The whole Lolth dominates everything is already done in other settings, the conflicted drow of FR makes them unique and more interesting.
Well, firstly, duergar arguably have had a worse lot than drow as they not only weren't originally evil, but were forcibly twisted into their current forms by the experiments of the mindflayers. Where as the dark elves chose to follow Lolth in her war on the other elven races, duergar had no choice in becoming what they are now, which makes them more tragic, and in my opinion, makes the idea of redemption far more appealing. I'll give you the others, but I don't agree with "originally good, turned evil, might turn good again" makes the redemption plotline more interesting than "originally evil, might turn good."
And we'll agree to disagree on the aspects thing.
Not really. First, I really don't think that all the Illythiri were so cruel. Having a whole population being evil is just stupid, even if they worshipped Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and Lolth. Likely, the common dark elf was a rather normal person who was cursed for no reason, given that, as it happens in all wars, the fault falls on who led the atrocities made. Seeing that the Seldarine turned their back to them and that Eilistraee's presence was massively diminished after a huge number of her followers perished in the Dark Disaster, the drow turned to Lolth. Second, newborn drow don't really have a choice. They are simply cursed and indoctrinated, so yes it is the 'educated evil, might turn good' plotline, not the 'good-evil-good' one.
You assume brainwashing is alalways successful, indeed most authors don't seem to understand, that anywhere from twenty to thirty percent of all attempts to brainwash an individual fail. Given the possibility of magic comeing into play, I'll say that this then brings the number down to ten to fifteen percent. So, roughly one in ten, that's a sizeable number of drow. Some will still gravatate to an evil god/goddess. Some will gravatate to any god/godess that they think will give them an edge. Some others however, will find, quite suprisingly that kindness is quite infectous. If you want a real world instance of this, take a good look at the writings of Herold Vaton (2001), or George Washborn, (1989), on the history of the christan church during the Roman persacution. In fact, George's work would particularly enlightening, as he directly quotes from sources at the time of the events. Many of the sources he uses, like himself, are athiests. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 14:41:25
I know, and that was my point. (The not many) Drow who are already getting rid of Lolth influence would try to seek powers who have a Lolth-like doctrine, because that's the lifestyle they are indoctrinated in believing right. This is one of the reasons of Eilistraee being there for the drow, with the other many drow who are still chained. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 14:36:24
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Hm I see your point there about drow trying to rebel to Lolth. Nonetheless, this doesn't point to drow spontaneously seeking alternatives to their common behavior, and trying to live a 'normal' life, instead of always lunging for power for its own sake, which is the effect of Lolth's doctrine.
Which brings to the point of E and why drow deserve different deities. The answer is that I'd be happy if deities like her were there also for -say- orcs or duergar (I'd like E anyway even if she was an orc), but those races are not in the same situation as drow. They are brainwashed into believing the backstabbing life where the individual has no intrinsic value is the only one possible (and potential rebellion to Lolth are led by that: hunger for power and social status, which is -as I said- the influence of their education), and not really given a choice in that regard, where -say- orcs live as they please (AFAIK).
And again, E was surely introduced on the wave of good drow popularity, but she has her own lore, adds depth, flavor and a struggle for freedom which just fits the dark elves. She's not an excuse for Drizzt's clones: I've already explained why, and they don't need any in order to be played
I think you underestimate just how infectious new religious ideas can be, especially when the deities in question are certainly real and actively send visions or agents to potential followers. In a drow society such as Udrek'Thoz, for instance, not only would I expect petitioners from other deities to be sending missionaries in droves, I'd expect the drow population to be flocking to them just to be a part of something that *isn't* Loth's church.
Yes, but drow would only choose deities who fit their 'default' style of life, i.e. the one Lolth imposed to them. They would deem any deities whose dogma doesn't include 'what gives value to people is the power they have on others' weak. Such kind of concepts would be alien to them because of the brainwashing they received. This is why someone like E, who has changing their mind as goal, and who fights for it is just appropriate and fitting. Other deities simply have different goals, sending missionaries in drow cities would be just too risky for their followers (unless in such city the influence of Lolth is already limited), and not likely to pay off in terms of number of followers they'd receive (in fact, no 'goodly' deity actually does that, AFAIK. And no, unless Lolth's influence was already limited, drow wouldn't flock to anything that isn't Lolth. They do believe that what she teaches them is right. You have to struggle to make them understand. Also, seeing that you're insisting to give the drow a 'standard' goodly deity, why not just restore E instead? I mean, drow would still get the -purely appaerent, as I see it- Drizzt clones issue and stuff with any other deity, so why not? The Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord are widely popular, and are valid characters so it'd totally make sense and be profitable for WotC to bring 'em back in canon).
quote:
quote:
My guess would be that unlike all of the other races you named, dark elves did not begin evil in the FR creation stories. Therefore, the possibility of redemption is interesting.
Also, I vastly prefer the racial pantheons to the aspects concept. I prefer the Gruumish that hates all non-orcs to the new, Talos-Gruumish merge etc. Furthermore, removing the other drow gods in Realms, just brings Realms in line with Greyhawk and I believe Dragonlance(if another scribe could correct me on the Dragonlance part that would be great). The whole Lolth dominates everything is already done in other settings, the conflicted drow of FR makes them unique and more interesting.
Well, firstly, duergar arguably have had a worse lot than drow as they not only weren't originally evil, but were forcibly twisted into their current forms by the experiments of the mindflayers. Where as the dark elves chose to follow Lolth in her war on the other elven races, duergar had no choice in becoming what they are now, which makes them more tragic, and in my opinion, makes the idea of redemption far more appealing. I'll give you the others, but I don't agree with "originally good, turned evil, might turn good again" makes the redemption plotline more interesting than "originally evil, might turn good."
And we'll agree to disagree on the aspects thing.
Not really. First, I really don't think that all the Illythiri were so cruel. Having a whole population being evil is just stupid, even if they worshipped Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and Lolth. Likely, the common dark elf was a rather normal person who was cursed for no reason, given that, as it happens in all wars, the fault falls on who led the atrocities made. Seeing that the Seldarine turned their back to them and that Eilistraee's presence was massively diminished after a huge number of her followers perished in the Dark Disaster, the drow turned to Lolth. Second, newborn drow don't really have a choice. They are simply cursed and indoctrinated, so yes it is the 'educated evil, might turn good' plotline, not the 'good-evil-good' one.
Given what he's said, and what I've said, that's not the main point being driven towards, if you'll forgive the vanicular, it's the point that other Gods/godesses would have a vested interest in the drow, and that many drow would have a vested interest in seeking other powers. In fact, one of the examples I mentioned is lawful evil... and a Goddess of dragons. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 12:35:10
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Hm I see your point there about drow trying to rebel to Lolth. Nonetheless, this doesn't point to drow spontaneously seeking alternatives to their common behavior, and trying to live a 'normal' life, instead of always lunging for power for its own sake, which is the effect of Lolth's doctrine.
Which brings to the point of E and why drow deserve different deities. The answer is that I'd be happy if deities like her were there also for -say- orcs or duergar (I'd like E anyway even if she was an orc), but those races are not in the same situation as drow. They are brainwashed into believing the backstabbing life where the individual has no intrinsic value is the only one possible (and potential rebellion to Lolth are led by that: hunger for power and social status, which is -as I said- the influence of their education), and not really given a choice in that regard, where -say- orcs live as they please (AFAIK).
And again, E was surely introduced on the wave of good drow popularity, but she has her own lore, adds depth, flavor and a struggle for freedom which just fits the dark elves. She's not an excuse for Drizzt's clones: I've already explained why, and they don't need any in order to be played
I think you underestimate just how infectious new religious ideas can be, especially when the deities in question are certainly real and actively send visions or agents to potential followers. In a drow society such as Udrek'Thoz, for instance, not only would I expect petitioners from other deities to be sending missionaries in droves, I'd expect the drow population to be flocking to them just to be a part of something that *isn't* Loth's church.
Yes, but drow would only choose deities who fit their 'default' style of life, i.e. the one Lolth imposed to them. They would deem any deities whose dogma doesn't include 'what gives value to people is the power they have on others' weak. Such kind of concepts would be alien to them because of the brainwashing they received. This is why someone like E, who has changing their mind as goal, and who fights for it is just appropriate and fitting. Other deities simply have different goals, sending missionaries in drow cities would be just too risky for their followers (unless in such city the influence of Lolth is already limited), and not likely to pay off in terms of number of followers they'd receive (in fact, no 'goodly' deity actually does that, AFAIK. And no, unless Lolth's influence was already limited, drow wouldn't flock to anything that isn't Lolth. They do believe that what she teaches them is right. You have to struggle to make them understand. Also, seeing that you're insisting to give the drow a 'standard' goodly deity, why not just restore E instead? I mean, drow would still get the -purely appaerent, as I see it- Drizzt clones issue and stuff with any other deity, so why not? The Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord are widely popular, and are valid characters so it'd totally make sense and be profitable for WotC to bring 'em back in canon).
quote:
quote:
My guess would be that unlike all of the other races you named, dark elves did not begin evil in the FR creation stories. Therefore, the possibility of redemption is interesting.
Also, I vastly prefer the racial pantheons to the aspects concept. I prefer the Gruumish that hates all non-orcs to the new, Talos-Gruumish merge etc. Furthermore, removing the other drow gods in Realms, just brings Realms in line with Greyhawk and I believe Dragonlance(if another scribe could correct me on the Dragonlance part that would be great). The whole Lolth dominates everything is already done in other settings, the conflicted drow of FR makes them unique and more interesting.
Well, firstly, duergar arguably have had a worse lot than drow as they not only weren't originally evil, but were forcibly twisted into their current forms by the experiments of the mindflayers. Where as the dark elves chose to follow Lolth in her war on the other elven races, duergar had no choice in becoming what they are now, which makes them more tragic, and in my opinion, makes the idea of redemption far more appealing. I'll give you the others, but I don't agree with "originally good, turned evil, might turn good again" makes the redemption plotline more interesting than "originally evil, might turn good."
And we'll agree to disagree on the aspects thing.
Not really. First, I really don't think that all the Illythiri were so cruel. Having a whole population being evil is just stupid, even if they worshipped Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and Lolth. Likely, the common dark elf was a rather normal person who was cursed for no reason, given that, as it happens in all wars, the fault falls on who led the atrocities made. Seeing that the Seldarine turned their back to them and that Eilistraee's presence was massively diminished after a huge number of her followers perished in the Dark Disaster, the drow turned to Lolth. Second, newborn drow don't really have a choice. They are simply cursed and indoctrinated, so yes it is the 'educated evil, might turn good' plotline, not the 'good-evil-good' one. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 11:52:27
quote:
Hm I see your point there about drow trying to rebel to Lolth. Nonetheless, this doesn't point to drow spontaneously seeking alternatives to their common behavior, and trying to live a 'normal' life, instead of always lunging for power for its own sake, which is the effect of Lolth's doctrine.
Which brings to the point of E and why drow deserve different deities. The answer is that I'd be happy if deities like her were there also for -say- orcs or duergar (I'd like E anyway even if she was an orc), but those races are not in the same situation as drow. They are brainwashed into believing the backstabbing life where the individual has no intrinsic value is the only one possible (and potential rebellion to Lolth are led by that: hunger for power and social status, which is -as I said- the influence of their education), and not really given a choice in that regard, where -say- orcs live as they please (AFAIK).
And again, E was surely introduced on the wave of good drow popularity, but she has her own lore, adds depth, flavor and a struggle for freedom which just fits the dark elves. She's not an excuse for Drizzt's clones: I've already explained why, and they don't need any in order to be played
I think you underestimate just how infectious new religious ideas can be, especially when the deities in question are certainly real and actively send visions or agents to potential followers. In a drow society such as Udrek'Thoz, for instance, not only would I expect petitioners from other deities to be sending missionaries in droves, I'd expect the drow population to be flocking to them just to be a part of something that *isn't* Loth's church.
quote:
My guess would be that unlike all of the other races you named, dark elves did not begin evil in the FR creation stories. Therefore, the possibility of redemption is interesting.
Also, I vastly prefer the racial pantheons to the aspects concept. I prefer the Gruumish that hates all non-orcs to the new, Talos-Gruumish merge etc. Furthermore, removing the other drow gods in Realms, just brings Realms in line with Greyhawk and I believe Dragonlance(if another scribe could correct me on the Dragonlance part that would be great). The whole Lolth dominates everything is already done in other settings, the conflicted drow of FR makes them unique and more interesting.
Well, firstly, duergar arguably have had a worse lot than drow as they not only weren't originally evil, but were forcibly twisted into their current forms by the experiments of the mindflayers. Where as the dark elves chose to follow Lolth in her war on the other elven races, duergar had no choice in becoming what they are now, which makes them more tragic, and in my opinion, makes the idea of redemption far more appealing. I'll give you the others, but I don't agree with "originally good, turned evil, might turn good again" makes the redemption plotline more interesting than "originally evil, might turn good."
And we'll agree to disagree on the aspects thing.
|
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 11:20:36
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Though, on another point, I might question as to why the drow, of all "evil" races are so deserving of having deities(well, a deity) dedicated specifically to their redemption. Why're there no renegade or rebel deities for the orcs, the goblins, the duergar, the yuan-ti, so forth and so on?
My guess would be that unlike all of the other races you named, dark elves did not begin evil in the FR creation stories. Therefore, the possibility of redemption is interesting.
Also, I vastly prefer the racial pantheons to the aspects concept. I prefer the Gruumish that hates all non-orcs to the new, Talos-Gruumish merge etc. Furthermore, removing the other drow gods in Realms, just brings Realms in line with Greyhawk and I believe Dragonlance(if another scribe could correct me on the Dragonlance part that would be great). The whole Lolth dominates everything is already done in other settings, the conflicted drow of FR makes them unique and more interesting. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 11:15:46
Hm I see your point there about drow trying to rebel to Lolth. Nonetheless, this doesn't point to drow spontaneously seeking alternatives to their common behavior, and trying to live a 'normal' life, instead of always lunging for power for its own sake, which is the effect of Lolth's doctrine.
Which brings to the point of E and why drow deserve different deities. The answer is that I'd be happy if deities like her were there also for -say- orcs or duergar (I'd like E anyway even if she was an orc), but those races are not in the same situation as drow. They are brainwashed into believing the backstabbing life where the individual has no intrinsic value is the only one possible (and potential rebellion to Lolth are led by that: hunger for power and social status, which is -as I said- the influence of their education), and not really given a choice in that regard, where -say- orcs live as they please (AFAIK).
And again, E was surely introduced on the wave of good drow popularity, but she has her own lore, adds depth, flavor and a struggle for freedom which just fits the dark elves. She's not an excuse for Drizzt's clones: I've already explained why, and they don't need any in order to be played. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 10:41:01
quote:
About drow spontaneously seeking alternatives: It'd be really hard, considering the level of brainwashing and oppression they are forced into starting since childhood. Very few manage to actually realize that they're just puppets, and even less manage to know and choose alternatives. This is why I feel that having deities/whatever dedicated to opening their eyes and inspiring in them the will to fight for their freedom is appropriate and fitting. Besides, neither E nor V 'crusade' for drow, they 'crusade' 'with' drow (and by this I mean that one of their goals is to help drow finally understand the reality of thier situation and start making their own choices).
I counter this point with Undrek'Throz, a drow city(actually a confederation of several drow cities) with the largest drow population in Faerun. In this city the church of Lolth is tolerated, not in power. Males are equals, arcane magic is the dominant force, and open trade with the surface exists. There was an active and successful rebellion against the lothites and the new regime has lasted a century, enough time for a generation of drow to grow into adulthood free of the indoctrination that the previous generations have suffered under.
The point being that this city disproves the notion that all drow are brainwashed puppets, that there is a place where new ideas are free to flow in and take root. Of course the problem is that this city is relegated to a few paragraphs in the FRPG where as Menzoberranzan, the city that represents everything that you rightfully point out is wrong with drow culture and society, is the focus of all drow stories and lore.
Though, on another point, I might question as to why the drow, of all "evil" races are so deserving of having deities(well, a deity) dedicated specifically to their redemption. Why're there no renegade or rebel deities for the orcs, the goblins, the duergar, the yuan-ti, so forth and so on? I think, more than simply seeing their racial specificness as making them too niche, I find a certain level of annoyance in the uniqueness of their racial specificness, especially with concerns to Eilistraee. Her followers may not be "Drizzt clones", which is admittedly an unfair label, but I still feel that the specific reason for Eilistraee's creation was to give players an excuse to play good-aligned drow. To which I ask, what makes the drow so special as to deserve this?
That last paragraph may have come off a little more hostile than I intended. I'm tired, but my insomnia won't be letting me sleep tonight. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 10:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Actually, no, remember the Gods aren't omnicient, one wouldn't need to necesarly fight Lolth to do so. And there is already a source of people that aren't fully indoctrinated, or at least not fully. the three groups I've already mentioned, especially those that become mercenaries and merchants. both groups already move among mixed crowds every day. All a God would have to do, is communicate with a few priests, they do this already, and you'd have a cupple of agents moving among the underdark, working in those cities were the Matrins aren't in control, or in complete control, and there you go. it's going to take time, but Gods can see the long view, what's a decade or tow, what's half a century. And whose to say that they weren't getting started during Lolth's silence, th perfect time. I could see Tiamat, for one, doing something like this. Is it an investment, yes, is it one likely to pay off, yes.
It would be an investment which would likely pay off with a niche section of followers. And it isn't even granted. Merchants -for example- have very little reason to switch from Lolth: her dogma doesn't hinder their profit and showing affiliation to other powers would only increase the pressure of the matrons on them, which is the last thing they want. Same goes for mercenaries.
About other cities (like Ssamath, or however it is spelled), I think that other deities beside the DS are already worshiped there.
And your argument contains a flaw, or flase conjuctive assumption. In the case of what you said, If we follow your logic, assuming it's valid, then there would be no faith but Lolth in the first place. There would have been no revolt in the first place. There wouldn't have been the actions of the Varenites during Lolth's silence. Yet, we know these things did occur, they didn't occur because there was something so very special about Varan, they occured because there was a portion of males descatisfied with the status quo and wanted to do something about it. Varan and his clergy simply gave them a framework for this to take place. The loss of V isn't going to make this suddenly disappear. It's not. It's there for another God/Godess to simply take advantage of. And let's not forget, most of the individuals that enter into that profession, do so, because they are often already disatisfied. It's not that far from being dissatisfied with a system, to taking up an opposing view.
And again, my point is that supporting such rebellion is not an easy task, and that gods who have different goals would likely just ignore that situation, for the meager result that they could get from it. If you simply go in for followers (like merchants or mercenaries you proposed), you'll make a small investment which is not assured to give result (and the result would be a handful of worshipers); if you go in to change drow minds, it'll be a long, costly and risky process, which deities whose goal has little to do with drow are not likely to consider. I really don't see other gods really putting an effort in getting followers in lolthite cities (unless it is important to their goal, which should not be getting as much worshipers as possible), even tho it is likely that it already happens in neutral ones.
@CoA:
About racial pantheons and what they offer to whole Toril: I feel that
a characters doesn't need to be involved in everyone's affairs in order to be there. If it adds flavour, choice and depth to the setting, then it is valid and totally worthy of a place in it. Not every deity has to be an universal being, they're not like gods are in some RL religions but simply embody some concepts (which include ideas important to the race in case of racial deities) and have goals related to it. If the power of such niche deities is an issue, well it is in truth non existent: just make them demipowers, exarchs, archfey or whatever.
About drow spontaneously seeking alternatives: It'd be really hard, considering the level of brainwashing and oppression they are forced into starting since childhood. Very few manage to actually realize that they're just puppets, and even less manage to know and choose alternatives. This is why I feel that having deities/whatever dedicated to opening their eyes and inspiring in them the will to fight for their freedom is appropriate and fitting. Besides, neither E nor V 'crusade' for drow, they 'crusade' 'with' drow (and by this I mean that one of their goals is to help drow finally understand the reality of thier situation and start making their own choices).
About other deities answering prayers: I -personally- don't like this. As I said before in this thread, one of the things that makes me interested in deities is that it's not really a question of faith. People who choose to dedicate themselves as clerics to a 'divine cause' do so because they share it and want to work for it with their deity, as his/her/its agents on the prime. The last thing I want to see is someone wondering about the existence of his/her god, or 'feeding' some other deity they didn't choose to work with. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 07:21:49
Again, looking at this from the bottom up instead of the top down; while I don't see Gruumsh actively pursing accumulating drow worshipers, and I certainly don't see many gruumans looking to convert drow into anything but corpses, I could certainly see some drow turning to Gruumsh worship on their own. Gruumsh is the god of savagery and destruction, but is also a god of strength, passion, and freedom. While I imagine Lolthites teach of Gruumsh being the mindless brute the Spider Queen manipulated into attacking Corellon and who she outwitted in her cunning, a drow looking for other avenues than Lolth worship would question what her followers taught and perhaps coming to see Gruumsh as a great warrior who faced an enemy Lolth could never hope to defeat herself.
And as I said in my Many-Arrows thread(which has sadly dropped off the front page), in my home game I have several drow converting to worship of Shagraas, the (traditionally orcish) god of thievery, stealth, and the night. As (again in my home game) worship of either Seldarine is outlawed in Many-Arrows, many of them worship Shagraas openly but think of him more as an aspect of Vhaerun, a mask their lord wears.
I also once ran a plotline(mentioned earlier) where someone was trying to mass convert the drow to devil worship- a plot undertaken specifically in opposition to Lolth. However, most of the plot took place in a home-brewed drow city where worship of Loviatar, Beshaba, Zehir, Waukeen, Graz'zt, and Malcanthet were all common, if subservient to the church of Lolth.
Anyway, those are just some specific examples I've used, personally. Point being I think it's more important for the drow to go looking for something beyond Lolth than to have deities actively crusading or advocating for them, especially with the hands-off approach the Next edition is going to be taking to the deities. Ao helps those who help themselves. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 06:53:06
We are free to have our opinions and discuss them (that's the point of threads, after all), and people will start threads about things that they are curious about or that matter to them. The Seldarine matter to me, and it is your choice whether you want to comment or not. I meant this to be about the Seldarine, but I am fine with it expanding to the other gods as well.
And the lack of cross-racial appeal is one of the reasons E and V are essential. They are advocates for the drow, in a way other races and deities aren't. You wouldn't see Gruumsh taking in a drow. As much as orcs hate elves, they hate drow just as much. Shar I suppose is a possibilty, but she is more similar to Lolth than V or E. And Mask, while he shares some similarities with V...I just don't think he'd cut it. I like Mask, don't get me wrong, but he is not Vhaeraun. I'm not saying a drow -couldn't- worship Mask, and maybe Mask would take in a godless drow, but I personally feel V and E are essential to the drow pantheon, just like Lolth is.
|
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 06:25:35
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think the aspect thing made a certain amount of sense; I don't think every race needs a deity for everything. I think deities themselves should be more universal than that. More wide spanning. But it makes sense that different races would have different interpretations of different deities, hence humans seeing Gruumsh as Talos and the like.
My problem with the no killing/no aspect thing is two fold; firstly, deicide is a well established part of the realms, ever since Gruumsh killed Re. It happens. I don't think it should be over done and I do think 4e overdid it a little, but where the balance is is personal preference.
My other problem is that if you can't kill deities off or reveal them to be aspects of other deities, then you only have one way to go and that is up. More deities are going to get introduced, that's the nature of the beast, and sooner or later we'll be swimming in them again. There's a point where it becomes too much, where there's simply too much redundancy between deities or they simply represent such a narrow view that it's hard to believe they attract any worshipers at all.
My point is, sometimes you need to take the hedgeclippers to something.
There's also the fact that dead deities still contribute to the setting; as vestiges of their former selves, as legends of the past that live on with minor cults, so on and so forth. Dead deities aren't gone, they still have a role to play. There's also nothing stopping people from worshiping dead gods and even receiving power from that worship- hence the aspect thing. Selune might step into the role of granting prayers for E's faithful, while Cyric or Shagraas may do the same for V.
One of the reasons I don't fully support the return of E & V(mind you I don't actively oppose it, either) is that I don't particularly see them as essential. I think you need some degree of redundancy in a pantheon to give people options, but with E & V, the only ting I see them bringing to the table is that they're drow specific alternatives to Lolth. To which I ask, why can't a drow looking for an alternative to Lolth just find another deity? Gods aren't picky as far as their worshipers goes and if the churches of E & V could survive despite the oppressive rule of the lolthites I don't see why any other deity wouldn't be able to reach out to the drow as well.
There's also the point that one of the reasons E & V were killed off, E specifically, is that there was a conscious decision by management to return drow to a primarily villain race. Now, I'm probably going to sound like a hypocrite for this given how much I campaign for orcs being allowed to be more than that, but maybe thats where they belong. RAS has said he feared for the future of drow as credible villains. I can't count all the bad Drizzt clones, to the point where making fun of drow for all being chaotic good rebels fighting to shake off the reputation of their evil kin has in and of itself become a cliche. Again, might be hypocritical of me as much as I argue about moving forward and not taking steps back, but maybe we should take a step back to a time when being a non-evil drow actually meant something.
I respect your view, and everyone has their opinion, and “too many deities” does present a problem to some people, but personally, I like the variety. And the Seldarine, while it has a decent amount of deities, is not overly large, so killing one would not be the best move. It’s not that I can’t live with them being aspects, it’s that I don’t particularly care for it. Hanali had a portal that led to Brightwater, Sune’s realm, so it’s not like them being aspects of one another is not completely out of the question, but, to me at least, it would have made more sense if Sharess and Sune were aspects of one another, rather than Hanali and Sune. But being aspects is better than them dying. The “human”or “general” pantheon is much larger the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine, so there is more room to make one an aspect of another, IMO. Shar would do better as an aspect of Besheba than she would Lolth.
Other than the fact that I like the gods and the variety adds flavor, the main reason I don’t like their death is this: the afterlife. As I’ve said in other threads, the afterlife is very important to me (and I’m not trying to go in RW religion here. I’m referring strictly to fantasy/the Realms). Why? Because characters matter to me, and when they die, it is some comfort to me that their soul is going to a good place. Other people will likely disagree with me and this is not a concern for them, but it is to me. If an elf worships the Seldarine, he or she is going to Arvandor when they die. This has been shown many times in the novels I read concerning elves. And as for following dead deities, it really depends on the deity. For example, a follower of Helm is still likely to go to Celestia (I think that’s the realm), because Ilmater and Torm are still around. But drow aren’t that lucky. True, based on the events of LP, one could argue that Corellon would (hopefully) take them in, but that is part of the debate here. I’m glad he saved her realms at least. E and V are drow-specific, though again, it isn’t that other races can’t worship them—there was an elf in LP that worshipped E, though he worshipped another as well. But the likelihood of drow be swayed to worship an non-drow deity is likely, though Sightless does make a good point in saying what is a decade or two, or even a century to a god? But…do the drow really have that long?
Unless the drow follow Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, they assumedly go to Lolth’s realm, whether they actively worship her or not, and for most, that is not a good place. Vhaeraun is technically an evil deity, but to my understanding, his realm is better than Lolth’s. I’m not saying elves and drow can’t worship other deities. There can be evil elves (some probably worship Asmodeus) and good drow. Dorw are evil yes, but they have the chance to be converted. If there was no hope for them at all, the Eilistraee would have seen no need to willingly leave Arvandor to try and create a balance. Drow do indeed make good villains, but that doesn’t mean all of them have to be.
One of the big differences between your views on the subject and mine, I think, is that you're still thinking in terms of "human/general pantheon" and "Seldarine/Dark Seldarine", where as when I say "pantheon", I mean all the gods. All of them. They may break off into different subgroups, but I see them all as one large pantheon.
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy a variety of gods and I think it's important to keep some redundancy so people can have choices. Asmodeus and Bane are both gods primarily defined by tyranny, for instance, but they're different enough to give a lawful evil individual some choice to shop around.
I just think there is a point where it becomes overbloated. Where that point is is going to vary from person to person. And I'm not saying I couldn't have lived with what the Realms had before 4e, but I don't mind it being trimmed down. There are still a lot of gods available.
Also, you're wrong about the point of drow not worshiping E or V going to Lolth by default. They go to the realm of the god they worship, and if they worship no god at all, they go to the wall of the faithless(which, granted, isn't a particularly pleasant fate).
My point is that there are options available to them and that E and V aren't the only ones. Prayers to E and V are still being made and any given deity can hear those prayers and grant them, in which case when they die they'll go to that sponsor deity they didn't know they were worshiping. Alternatively, a deity will occasionally claim a faithless soul that lived by its tenets. And if all else fails, the Nine Hells maintains a constant presence in the Fugue Plane, offering deals to those who face either the Wall or torment in an even worse realm such as Lolth. Lolth may not be equal in terms of torment, but at least in Hell the possibility of ascension exists, something I expect most drow would leap at.
Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. I was using the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine because that's what I started this thread with, but using other gods as examples is okay.
Mmm, that's a good point in regards of the souls. I've thought of that before, but I guess I was so focused on certain deities and situations that I spaced it  But you're right, a deity with similar values could take in a godless soul. I believe the Wall of the Faithless and the False is reserved for those who deny acknowledging any gods entirely, though I could be wrong on that. Some would probably become servants of Kelemvor, too. I guess when I think elves, I think Seldarine, and when I think drow, I think Dark Seldarine. So a drow who didn't worship Lolth could still be taken in by E or V, when they were alive. E and V are rather specific deities. While a part of me wants Lolth to shrivel up in a corner like the spider she is, ultimately, I feel she is essential to the Realms (just as the Seldarine are, IMO). But E and V are as well. Even if another deity (be it one of the Seldarine or otherwise), but take in a soul that would have been an Eilistraeen or a Vhaeraunite had the two been alive, it's not as likely. But, it is not impossible, so I acknowledge your point.
And yes, devils/demons could bargain with a godless drow, and you're right they would probably leap at the idea of ascenion, but also, if they disappoint a creature of the Hells, their fate could be even worse than what it is in Lolth's realm. Not to mention they'd be constantly looking over their shoulder, but then again, I guess drow are used to that...
One of the reasons I almost didn't post in this thread is because it's Seldarine specific and I don't really care about the Seldarine one way or the other(just isn't an aspect of the realms or beyond that appeals to me). But really this thread is about gods and the Seldarine is simply one part of the larger pantheon.
And yea, I wouldn't mind seeing Lolth impaled on Gruumsh's spear or crushed by Asmodeus' Ruby Rod....my goodness that was a poorly worded sentence...moving on. But she is essential to the realms and really to D&D as a whole, every bit as much as Gruumsh, Asmodeus, or Corellon are.
And one of the reasons I think that is because I see her as representing something and offering something to followers beyond drow. As a goddess of treachery, a goddess of schemes and plots, a goddess of shadows and madness and spiders. And a goddess for those who hate elves. There's a lot to take from Lolth beyond one race.
I just don't see E. and V. as having that same cross-racial appeal. E's main schitck is redeeming drow, with the naked dancing being secondary to that, and V's main point is rebelling against his mother.
Which isn't to say there isn't a place for that. For example, I don't think Obould has a particularly widespread appeal beyond orcs, and even then I see him as primarily being a hero-cult in Many-Arrows, but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for that.
Eilistraee and Vhaerun being reintroduced as exarchs or lesser gods is fine by me, but I just don't see it as being an essential change.
And technically, devils bargain. Demons raid and tear souls from the wall of the faithless with nothing resembling a choice applied to the matter. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 05:54:59
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think the aspect thing made a certain amount of sense; I don't think every race needs a deity for everything. I think deities themselves should be more universal than that. More wide spanning. But it makes sense that different races would have different interpretations of different deities, hence humans seeing Gruumsh as Talos and the like.
My problem with the no killing/no aspect thing is two fold; firstly, deicide is a well established part of the realms, ever since Gruumsh killed Re. It happens. I don't think it should be over done and I do think 4e overdid it a little, but where the balance is is personal preference.
My other problem is that if you can't kill deities off or reveal them to be aspects of other deities, then you only have one way to go and that is up. More deities are going to get introduced, that's the nature of the beast, and sooner or later we'll be swimming in them again. There's a point where it becomes too much, where there's simply too much redundancy between deities or they simply represent such a narrow view that it's hard to believe they attract any worshipers at all.
My point is, sometimes you need to take the hedgeclippers to something.
There's also the fact that dead deities still contribute to the setting; as vestiges of their former selves, as legends of the past that live on with minor cults, so on and so forth. Dead deities aren't gone, they still have a role to play. There's also nothing stopping people from worshiping dead gods and even receiving power from that worship- hence the aspect thing. Selune might step into the role of granting prayers for E's faithful, while Cyric or Shagraas may do the same for V.
One of the reasons I don't fully support the return of E & V(mind you I don't actively oppose it, either) is that I don't particularly see them as essential. I think you need some degree of redundancy in a pantheon to give people options, but with E & V, the only ting I see them bringing to the table is that they're drow specific alternatives to Lolth. To which I ask, why can't a drow looking for an alternative to Lolth just find another deity? Gods aren't picky as far as their worshipers goes and if the churches of E & V could survive despite the oppressive rule of the lolthites I don't see why any other deity wouldn't be able to reach out to the drow as well.
There's also the point that one of the reasons E & V were killed off, E specifically, is that there was a conscious decision by management to return drow to a primarily villain race. Now, I'm probably going to sound like a hypocrite for this given how much I campaign for orcs being allowed to be more than that, but maybe thats where they belong. RAS has said he feared for the future of drow as credible villains. I can't count all the bad Drizzt clones, to the point where making fun of drow for all being chaotic good rebels fighting to shake off the reputation of their evil kin has in and of itself become a cliche. Again, might be hypocritical of me as much as I argue about moving forward and not taking steps back, but maybe we should take a step back to a time when being a non-evil drow actually meant something.
I respect your view, and everyone has their opinion, and “too many deities” does present a problem to some people, but personally, I like the variety. And the Seldarine, while it has a decent amount of deities, is not overly large, so killing one would not be the best move. It’s not that I can’t live with them being aspects, it’s that I don’t particularly care for it. Hanali had a portal that led to Brightwater, Sune’s realm, so it’s not like them being aspects of one another is not completely out of the question, but, to me at least, it would have made more sense if Sharess and Sune were aspects of one another, rather than Hanali and Sune. But being aspects is better than them dying. The “human”or “general” pantheon is much larger the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine, so there is more room to make one an aspect of another, IMO. Shar would do better as an aspect of Besheba than she would Lolth.
Other than the fact that I like the gods and the variety adds flavor, the main reason I don’t like their death is this: the afterlife. As I’ve said in other threads, the afterlife is very important to me (and I’m not trying to go in RW religion here. I’m referring strictly to fantasy/the Realms). Why? Because characters matter to me, and when they die, it is some comfort to me that their soul is going to a good place. Other people will likely disagree with me and this is not a concern for them, but it is to me. If an elf worships the Seldarine, he or she is going to Arvandor when they die. This has been shown many times in the novels I read concerning elves. And as for following dead deities, it really depends on the deity. For example, a follower of Helm is still likely to go to Celestia (I think that’s the realm), because Ilmater and Torm are still around. But drow aren’t that lucky. True, based on the events of LP, one could argue that Corellon would (hopefully) take them in, but that is part of the debate here. I’m glad he saved her realms at least. E and V are drow-specific, though again, it isn’t that other races can’t worship them—there was an elf in LP that worshipped E, though he worshipped another as well. But the likelihood of drow be swayed to worship an non-drow deity is likely, though Sightless does make a good point in saying what is a decade or two, or even a century to a god? But…do the drow really have that long?
Unless the drow follow Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, they assumedly go to Lolth’s realm, whether they actively worship her or not, and for most, that is not a good place. Vhaeraun is technically an evil deity, but to my understanding, his realm is better than Lolth’s. I’m not saying elves and drow can’t worship other deities. There can be evil elves (some probably worship Asmodeus) and good drow. Dorw are evil yes, but they have the chance to be converted. If there was no hope for them at all, the Eilistraee would have seen no need to willingly leave Arvandor to try and create a balance. Drow do indeed make good villains, but that doesn’t mean all of them have to be.
One of the big differences between your views on the subject and mine, I think, is that you're still thinking in terms of "human/general pantheon" and "Seldarine/Dark Seldarine", where as when I say "pantheon", I mean all the gods. All of them. They may break off into different subgroups, but I see them all as one large pantheon.
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy a variety of gods and I think it's important to keep some redundancy so people can have choices. Asmodeus and Bane are both gods primarily defined by tyranny, for instance, but they're different enough to give a lawful evil individual some choice to shop around.
I just think there is a point where it becomes overbloated. Where that point is is going to vary from person to person. And I'm not saying I couldn't have lived with what the Realms had before 4e, but I don't mind it being trimmed down. There are still a lot of gods available.
Also, you're wrong about the point of drow not worshiping E or V going to Lolth by default. They go to the realm of the god they worship, and if they worship no god at all, they go to the wall of the faithless(which, granted, isn't a particularly pleasant fate).
My point is that there are options available to them and that E and V aren't the only ones. Prayers to E and V are still being made and any given deity can hear those prayers and grant them, in which case when they die they'll go to that sponsor deity they didn't know they were worshiping. Alternatively, a deity will occasionally claim a faithless soul that lived by its tenets. And if all else fails, the Nine Hells maintains a constant presence in the Fugue Plane, offering deals to those who face either the Wall or torment in an even worse realm such as Lolth. Lolth may not be equal in terms of torment, but at least in Hell the possibility of ascension exists, something I expect most drow would leap at.
Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. I was using the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine because that's what I started this thread with, but using other gods as examples is okay.
Mmm, that's a good point in regards of the souls. I've thought of that before, but I guess I was so focused on certain deities and situations that I spaced it But you're right, a deity with similar values could take in a godless soul. I believe the Wall of the Faithless and the False is reserved for those who deny acknowledging any gods entirely, though I could be wrong on that. Some would probably become servants of Kelemvor, too. I guess when I think elves, I think Seldarine, and when I think drow, I think Dark Seldarine. So a drow who didn't worship Lolth could still be taken in by E or V, when they were alive. E and V are rather specific deities. While a part of me wants Lolth to shrivel up in a corner like the spider she is, ultimately, I feel she is essential to the Realms (just as the Seldarine are, IMO). But E and V are as well. Even if another deity (be it one of the Seldarine or otherwise), but take in a soul that would have been an Eilistraeen or a Vhaeraunite had the two been alive, it's not as likely. But, it is not impossible, so I acknowledge your point.
And yes, devils/demons could bargain with a godless drow, and you're right they would probably leap at the idea of ascenion, but also, if they disappoint a creature of the Hells, their fate could be even worse than what it is in Lolth's realm. Not to mention they'd be constantly looking over their shoulder, but then again, I guess drow are used to that... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 05:21:55
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think the aspect thing made a certain amount of sense; I don't think every race needs a deity for everything. I think deities themselves should be more universal than that. More wide spanning. But it makes sense that different races would have different interpretations of different deities, hence humans seeing Gruumsh as Talos and the like.
My problem with the no killing/no aspect thing is two fold; firstly, deicide is a well established part of the realms, ever since Gruumsh killed Re. It happens. I don't think it should be over done and I do think 4e overdid it a little, but where the balance is is personal preference.
My other problem is that if you can't kill deities off or reveal them to be aspects of other deities, then you only have one way to go and that is up. More deities are going to get introduced, that's the nature of the beast, and sooner or later we'll be swimming in them again. There's a point where it becomes too much, where there's simply too much redundancy between deities or they simply represent such a narrow view that it's hard to believe they attract any worshipers at all.
My point is, sometimes you need to take the hedgeclippers to something.
There's also the fact that dead deities still contribute to the setting; as vestiges of their former selves, as legends of the past that live on with minor cults, so on and so forth. Dead deities aren't gone, they still have a role to play. There's also nothing stopping people from worshiping dead gods and even receiving power from that worship- hence the aspect thing. Selune might step into the role of granting prayers for E's faithful, while Cyric or Shagraas may do the same for V.
One of the reasons I don't fully support the return of E & V(mind you I don't actively oppose it, either) is that I don't particularly see them as essential. I think you need some degree of redundancy in a pantheon to give people options, but with E & V, the only ting I see them bringing to the table is that they're drow specific alternatives to Lolth. To which I ask, why can't a drow looking for an alternative to Lolth just find another deity? Gods aren't picky as far as their worshipers goes and if the churches of E & V could survive despite the oppressive rule of the lolthites I don't see why any other deity wouldn't be able to reach out to the drow as well.
There's also the point that one of the reasons E & V were killed off, E specifically, is that there was a conscious decision by management to return drow to a primarily villain race. Now, I'm probably going to sound like a hypocrite for this given how much I campaign for orcs being allowed to be more than that, but maybe thats where they belong. RAS has said he feared for the future of drow as credible villains. I can't count all the bad Drizzt clones, to the point where making fun of drow for all being chaotic good rebels fighting to shake off the reputation of their evil kin has in and of itself become a cliche. Again, might be hypocritical of me as much as I argue about moving forward and not taking steps back, but maybe we should take a step back to a time when being a non-evil drow actually meant something.
I respect your view, and everyone has their opinion, and “too many deities” does present a problem to some people, but personally, I like the variety. And the Seldarine, while it has a decent amount of deities, is not overly large, so killing one would not be the best move. It’s not that I can’t live with them being aspects, it’s that I don’t particularly care for it. Hanali had a portal that led to Brightwater, Sune’s realm, so it’s not like them being aspects of one another is not completely out of the question, but, to me at least, it would have made more sense if Sharess and Sune were aspects of one another, rather than Hanali and Sune. But being aspects is better than them dying. The “human”or “general” pantheon is much larger the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine, so there is more room to make one an aspect of another, IMO. Shar would do better as an aspect of Besheba than she would Lolth.
Other than the fact that I like the gods and the variety adds flavor, the main reason I don’t like their death is this: the afterlife. As I’ve said in other threads, the afterlife is very important to me (and I’m not trying to go in RW religion here. I’m referring strictly to fantasy/the Realms). Why? Because characters matter to me, and when they die, it is some comfort to me that their soul is going to a good place. Other people will likely disagree with me and this is not a concern for them, but it is to me. If an elf worships the Seldarine, he or she is going to Arvandor when they die. This has been shown many times in the novels I read concerning elves. And as for following dead deities, it really depends on the deity. For example, a follower of Helm is still likely to go to Celestia (I think that’s the realm), because Ilmater and Torm are still around. But drow aren’t that lucky. True, based on the events of LP, one could argue that Corellon would (hopefully) take them in, but that is part of the debate here. I’m glad he saved her realms at least. E and V are drow-specific, though again, it isn’t that other races can’t worship them—there was an elf in LP that worshipped E, though he worshipped another as well. But the likelihood of drow be swayed to worship an non-drow deity is likely, though Sightless does make a good point in saying what is a decade or two, or even a century to a god? But…do the drow really have that long?
Unless the drow follow Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, they assumedly go to Lolth’s realm, whether they actively worship her or not, and for most, that is not a good place. Vhaeraun is technically an evil deity, but to my understanding, his realm is better than Lolth’s. I’m not saying elves and drow can’t worship other deities. There can be evil elves (some probably worship Asmodeus) and good drow. Dorw are evil yes, but they have the chance to be converted. If there was no hope for them at all, the Eilistraee would have seen no need to willingly leave Arvandor to try and create a balance. Drow do indeed make good villains, but that doesn’t mean all of them have to be.
One of the big differences between your views on the subject and mine, I think, is that you're still thinking in terms of "human/general pantheon" and "Seldarine/Dark Seldarine", where as when I say "pantheon", I mean all the gods. All of them. They may break off into different subgroups, but I see them all as one large pantheon.
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy a variety of gods and I think it's important to keep some redundancy so people can have choices. Asmodeus and Bane are both gods primarily defined by tyranny, for instance, but they're different enough to give a lawful evil individual some choice to shop around.
I just think there is a point where it becomes overbloated. Where that point is is going to vary from person to person. And I'm not saying I couldn't have lived with what the Realms had before 4e, but I don't mind it being trimmed down. There are still a lot of gods available.
Also, you're wrong about the point of drow not worshiping E or V going to Lolth by default. They go to the realm of the god they worship, and if they worship no god at all, they go to the wall of the faithless(which, granted, isn't a particularly pleasant fate).
My point is that there are options available to them and that E and V aren't the only ones. Prayers to E and V are still being made and any given deity can hear those prayers and grant them, in which case when they die they'll go to that sponsor deity they didn't know they were worshiping. Alternatively, a deity will occasionally claim a faithless soul that lived by its tenets. And if all else fails, the Nine Hells maintains a constant presence in the Fugue Plane, offering deals to those who face either the Wall or torment in an even worse realm such as Lolth. Lolth may not be equal in terms of torment, but at least in Hell the possibility of ascension exists, something I expect most drow would leap at. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 04:32:20
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Actually, no, remember the Gods aren't omnicient, one wouldn't need to necesarly fight Lolth to do so. And there is already a source of people that aren't fully indoctrinated, or at least not fully. the three groups I've already mentioned, especially those that become mercenaries and merchants. both groups already move among mixed crowds every day. All a God would have to do, is communicate with a few priests, they do this already, and you'd have a cupple of agents moving among the underdark, working in those cities were the Matrins aren't in control, or in complete control, and there you go. it's going to take time, but Gods can see the long view, what's a decade or tow, what's half a century. And whose to say that they weren't getting started during Lolth's silence, th perfect time. I could see Tiamat, for one, doing something like this. Is it an investment, yes, is it one likely to pay off, yes.
It would be an investment which would likely pay off with a niche section of followers. And it isn't even granted. Merchants -for example- have very little reason to switch from Lolth: her dogma doesn't hinder their profit and showing affiliation to other powers would only increase the pressure of the matrons on them, which is the last thing they want. Same goes for mercenaries.
About other cities (like Ssamath, or however it is spelled), I think that other deities beside the DS are already worshiped there.
And your argument contains a flaw, or flase conjuctive assumption. In the case of what you said, If we follow your logic, assuming it's valid, then there would be no faith but Lolth in the first place. There would have been no revolt in the first place. There wouldn't have been the actions of the Varenites during Lolth's silence. Yet, we know these things did occur, they didn't occur because there was something so very special about Varan, they occured because there was a portion of males descatisfied with the status quo and wanted to do something about it. Varan and his clergy simply gave them a framework for this to take place. The loss of V isn't going to make this suddenly disappear. It's not. It's there for another God/Godess to simply take advantage of. And let's not forget, most of the individuals that enter into that profession, do so, because they are often already disatisfied. It's not that far from being dissatisfied with a system, to taking up an opposing view. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 04:22:32
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think the aspect thing made a certain amount of sense; I don't think every race needs a deity for everything. I think deities themselves should be more universal than that. More wide spanning. But it makes sense that different races would have different interpretations of different deities, hence humans seeing Gruumsh as Talos and the like.
My problem with the no killing/no aspect thing is two fold; firstly, deicide is a well established part of the realms, ever since Gruumsh killed Re. It happens. I don't think it should be over done and I do think 4e overdid it a little, but where the balance is is personal preference.
My other problem is that if you can't kill deities off or reveal them to be aspects of other deities, then you only have one way to go and that is up. More deities are going to get introduced, that's the nature of the beast, and sooner or later we'll be swimming in them again. There's a point where it becomes too much, where there's simply too much redundancy between deities or they simply represent such a narrow view that it's hard to believe they attract any worshipers at all.
My point is, sometimes you need to take the hedgeclippers to something.
There's also the fact that dead deities still contribute to the setting; as vestiges of their former selves, as legends of the past that live on with minor cults, so on and so forth. Dead deities aren't gone, they still have a role to play. There's also nothing stopping people from worshiping dead gods and even receiving power from that worship- hence the aspect thing. Selune might step into the role of granting prayers for E's faithful, while Cyric or Shagraas may do the same for V.
One of the reasons I don't fully support the return of E & V(mind you I don't actively oppose it, either) is that I don't particularly see them as essential. I think you need some degree of redundancy in a pantheon to give people options, but with E & V, the only ting I see them bringing to the table is that they're drow specific alternatives to Lolth. To which I ask, why can't a drow looking for an alternative to Lolth just find another deity? Gods aren't picky as far as their worshipers goes and if the churches of E & V could survive despite the oppressive rule of the lolthites I don't see why any other deity wouldn't be able to reach out to the drow as well.
There's also the point that one of the reasons E & V were killed off, E specifically, is that there was a conscious decision by management to return drow to a primarily villain race. Now, I'm probably going to sound like a hypocrite for this given how much I campaign for orcs being allowed to be more than that, but maybe thats where they belong. RAS has said he feared for the future of drow as credible villains. I can't count all the bad Drizzt clones, to the point where making fun of drow for all being chaotic good rebels fighting to shake off the reputation of their evil kin has in and of itself become a cliche. Again, might be hypocritical of me as much as I argue about moving forward and not taking steps back, but maybe we should take a step back to a time when being a non-evil drow actually meant something.
I respect your view, and everyone has their opinion, and “too many deities” does present a problem to some people, but personally, I like the variety. And the Seldarine, while it has a decent amount of deities, is not overly large, so killing one would not be the best move. It’s not that I can’t live with them being aspects, it’s that I don’t particularly care for it. Hanali had a portal that led to Brightwater, Sune’s realm, so it’s not like them being aspects of one another is not completely out of the question, but, to me at least, it would have made more sense if Sharess and Sune were aspects of one another, rather than Hanali and Sune. But being aspects is better than them dying. The “human”or “general” pantheon is much larger the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine, so there is more room to make one an aspect of another, IMO. Shar would do better as an aspect of Besheba than she would Lolth.
Other than the fact that I like the gods and the variety adds flavor, the main reason I don’t like their death is this: the afterlife. As I’ve said in other threads, the afterlife is very important to me (and I’m not trying to go in RW religion here. I’m referring strictly to fantasy/the Realms). Why? Because characters matter to me, and when they die, it is some comfort to me that their soul is going to a good place. Other people will likely disagree with me and this is not a concern for them, but it is to me. If an elf worships the Seldarine, he or she is going to Arvandor when they die. This has been shown many times in the novels I read concerning elves. And as for following dead deities, it really depends on the deity. For example, a follower of Helm is still likely to go to Celestia (I think that’s the realm), because Ilmater and Torm are still around. But drow aren’t that lucky. True, based on the events of LP, one could argue that Corellon would (hopefully) take them in, but that is part of the debate here. I’m glad he saved her realms at least. E and V are drow-specific, though again, it isn’t that other races can’t worship them—there was an elf in LP that worshipped E, though he worshipped another as well. But the likelihood of drow be swayed to worship an non-drow deity is likely, though Sightless does make a good point in saying what is a decade or two, or even a century to a god? But…do the drow really have that long?
Unless the drow follow Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, they assumedly go to Lolth’s realm, whether they actively worship her or not, and for most, that is not a good place. Vhaeraun is technically an evil deity, but to my understanding, his realm is better than Lolth’s. I’m not saying elves and drow can’t worship other deities. There can be evil elves (some probably worship Asmodeus) and good drow. Dorw are evil yes, but they have the chance to be converted. If there was no hope for them at all, the Eilistraee would have seen no need to willingly leave Arvandor to try and create a balance. Drow do indeed make good villains, but that doesn’t mean all of them have to be.
|
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 03:27:26
Consider, if you will, Undrek'Thoz, a drow metropolis of 50,000 people(considerably larger than Menzoberranzan). Lolth's church does not rule here, it is tolerated. Male drow are equals, even the dominant force, and arcane power reigns above the divine. They engage in open(if limited) trade with Thay and the Hordelands.
Forget Menzo. Menzo is unimportant. Undrek'Thoz is the place. Undrek'Thoz is the place where new ideas, new religion, new philosphies are free to filter into drow society and influence the people while Menzo chokes on it's own stagnant bile. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 03:24:19
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Actually, no, remember the Gods aren't omnicient, one wouldn't need to necesarly fight Lolth to do so. And there is already a source of people that aren't fully indoctrinated, or at least not fully. the three groups I've already mentioned, especially those that become mercenaries and merchants. both groups already move among mixed crowds every day. All a God would have to do, is communicate with a few priests, they do this already, and you'd have a cupple of agents moving among the underdark, working in those cities were the Matrins aren't in control, or in complete control, and there you go. it's going to take time, but Gods can see the long view, what's a decade or tow, what's half a century. And whose to say that they weren't getting started during Lolth's silence, th perfect time. I could see Tiamat, for one, doing something like this. Is it an investment, yes, is it one likely to pay off, yes.
It would be an investment which would likely pay off with a niche section of followers. And it isn't even granted. Merchants -for example- have very little reason to switch from Lolth: her dogma doesn't hinder their profit and showing affiliation to other powers would only increase the pressure of the matrons on them, which is the last thing they want. Same goes for mercenaries.
About other cities (like Ssamath, or however it is spelled), I think that other deities beside the DS are already worshiped there. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 03:04:13
Actually, no, remember the Gods aren't omnicient, one wouldn't need to necesarly fight Lolth to do so. And there is already a source of people that aren't fully indoctrinated, or at least not fully. the three groups I've already mentioned, especially those that become mercenaries and merchants. both groups already move among mixed crowds every day. All a God would have to do, is communicate with a few priests, they do this already, and you'd have a cupple of agents moving among the underdark, working in those cities were the Matrins aren't in control, or in complete control, and there you go. it's going to take time, but Gods can see the long view, what's a decade or tow, what's half a century. And whose to say that they weren't getting started during Lolth's silence, th perfect time. I could see Tiamat, for one, doing something like this. Is it an investment, yes, is it one likely to pay off, yes. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 02:33:13
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
(cheap, eh?)
Yes it would be cheep. Extremly so, and I strongly hope that WOTC doesn't go that route, as I said in my last post. And if people will look again at what I said, I mentioned that other Gods should be brought in, in addition to Vand I. First of all, there's been a century where they were gone. This creates a power vacume, we already have been shown that there Drow that aren't happy with Lolth, who can't worship V and I, because there gone. The redemed can push worshiping the elven system, but many Drow wont go for that because of long standing propaganda against those Gods. Logically speaking, other Gods, both good and evil, can see an opertunity for the possible gaining of followers and an opertunity to chip away at Lolth indirectly. There is no reason why this shouldn't have happened during the hundred year jump where V and I were out of the picture.
None.
this is not my opinion, this me stating a logical conjunction based on the facts provided by every source about Gods that have been provided. You would also do something that many individuals have already stated they would like to see, some depth added back to the Drow, besides simply as Lolth followers bent on doing Lolth stuff.
Yeah people want depth added to the drow, and E and V surely give it. Their removal was unjust and made no sense for the reason I've already explained over and over. WotC have the opportunity to put back two 'beloved' characters in canon without making it look cheap, but giving the whole story sense instead.
About the power vacuum, trying to claim drow followers means fighting Lolth, a greater deity, and one must be really dedicated to such cause to want to do it. Deities shouldn't always be in fight for power, they have their own goal and wouldn't have a reason to deviate resources from it to converting drow (which would even provide a very small worshippers base). Many gods simply don't care about the status of the dark elves. If one of them were to pray them, he/she would be accepted (no god turns away followers) but -as I said- changing the mind of drow is a hard battle, one that needs a lot of effort to be fought: the dedication that E and V have and that others would lack, because it's not their goal. Lets take a random deity: he/she/it would first have to let his/her/its name be known among drow, and this would imply sending clerics or agents among the dark elves, something that none sane in his/her mind would do. Then said deity should try to convince drow to worship him/her/it, which implies trying to understand drow mentality, fighting the indoctrination and clashing with Lolth. And at the end of this , after all the risk and effort, the result -if any- would be a number of followers probably not worth the resources spent. So such course of action would make any sense only if the deity was dedicated to the fight for the freedom of the race (or to any other goal directly involving the race. Deities like Ghaunadaur had drow followers simply because their worship started even before Lolth was aware of the situation in the Realmspace, and their worshipping continued through the years), like the siblings are. See my point now?
And even if it was easy for other deities to have drow worshipers, this would still allow space for E and V, as they bring their own unique flavour and depth to the setting and are well received characters.
quote:
The reason why she died wasn't silly,
It was. Totally. Either she was murdered (which is silly), or she sacrificed to redeem a small part of the race (who -again- didn't need, or maybe even want it) denying the vast majority of it the possibility of freedom. Also, as I said, it's not in her character to just drop her quest, turn her back to the drow and let Corellon deal with it: it's her and her people's fight. However this would completely change with the solution proposed. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 01:47:35
(cheap, eh?)
Yes it would be cheep. Extremly so, and I strongly hope that WOTC doesn't go that route, as I said in my last post. And if people will look again at what I said, I mentioned that other Gods should be brought in, in addition to Vand I. First of all, there's been a century where they were gone. This creates a power vacume, we already have been shown that there Drow that aren't happy with Lolth, who can't worship V and I, because there gone. The redemed can push worshiping the elven system, but many Drow wont go for that because of long standing propaganda against those Gods. Logically speaking, other Gods, both good and evil, can see an opertunity for the possible gaining of followers and an opertunity to chip away at Lolth indirectly. There is no reason why this shouldn't have happened during the hundred year jump where V and I were out of the picture.
None.
this is not my opinion, this me stating a logical conjunction based on the facts provided by every source about Gods that have been provided. You would also do something that many individuals have already stated they would like to see, some depth added back to the Drow, besides simply as Lolth followers bent on doing Lolth stuff. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 01:37:02
[quote]Originally posted by Irennan
Not at all. The authors of the Menzo book came up with an elegant solution which would give a sense to the events in LP: E, who merged with V, gave away her divinity to 'redeem' the drow. After that both came back as archfey, still continuing their quest. Now, with the sundering, they could be promoted back to deities or remain as archfey (honestly, I don't really care). How would this be silly?
The reason why she died wasn't silly, the methodology of her death seemed, to me rather podantic.
Purely opinion.
And note what I said, it could be done well, there's plenty of room to create something epic with them coming back and having to work for their devinity, as apposed to Ao simply saying "your Gods again." It would cheepen the sacrifice in so many ways. yes, Ao could indeed do what your suggesting, and WOTC may do this, but I personally hope that they do not.
Note, I have not spoken against there coming back, or their becoming Gods again, its just that things would be much more satisfying if they have to work for it. Do you understand me better now?
By the way, I felt the same way when they brought back Bane, I felt that BAne should have to endure something, go through some process where he triumphs to become a God again, not "Oh shit, Bane's back."
Will be anoyed if WOTC doesn't follow this method and justs brings back Vand I as Gods, no. And perhaps silly was not the best word to convey my point, it just seems that they can give the fan base so much more if they go one route over another.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:28:11
@Sightless Not at all. The authors of the Menzo book came up with an elegant solution which would give a sense to the events in LP: E, who merged with V, gave away her divinity to 'redeem' the drow. After that both came back as archfey, still continuing their quest. Now, with the sundering, they could be promoted back to deities or remain as archfey (honestly, I don't really care). How would this be silly?
Also, why use other gods in E and V place? Why would this give depth, when the siblings do that well enough already?
Not to mention that, talking about silliness, since Ao's gonna resurrect so many deities by writing their names on his notepad (cheap, eh?), I see no reason why would two so well received deity be left out.
@CoA: Personally, I have no problem with them being demipowers, as long as they are there. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:27:32
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I can then throw the question back at you. If nothing would actually change, why then not make many fans happy and restore two characters who could add so much? Why not return them in a way to have the events in LP actually make sense?
Besides, other deities simply don't risk for drow. They don't send their agents (i.e. priests or whatever) to open their eyes, to fight for their freedom (what human or elf would do so?). It's what E and V do.
Simply, there's more hurt in not returning them than in bringing them back (actually there's none in the latter).
Well, as I said I don't actively oppose bringing them back even if I don't support it.
I think we're coming at the issue from two different angles; you're looking at it for what they do for the drow, I'm looking at it for what they do for non-drow. Which is nothing.
I'd like to move past racially specific pantheons and racially specific gods in all but the lowest levels of divinity; demigods/exarchs. My problem with E & V is that the only unique aspect they bring to the table is for the drow specifically. So if they do come back I would want it to be as very minor deities because that's what they are, niche deities. |
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