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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 05:24:37
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I've been coming up with many concepts lately on a resurrection of Aryvandaar. To me, it seems like such an cool idea to bring back one of the most ancient empires in Toril's history (not to mention one of the most significant). I've been brainstorming ways on how it could come back, settlements it could have, current situations and problems, down even to political policies and positions.
What I have so far in a nutshell:
Aryvandaar will not spring up over night. It will slowly (very) be retaken over a successive amount of years (perhaps even decades to centuries).
Aryvandaar will consist of the lands of the original Aryvandaar and Siluvanede (though this kingdom was pretty much in the same area as Aryvandaar).
Aryvandaar will be re-founded by the Four Sons of Vyshaan (prophecised claimants to the Vyshaanti empire who survived Aryvandaar's and House Vyshaan's destruction). One thing that I will have with these characters would be that they are not going to be bickering between each other and actually cooperate. I'd be trying to break the mold between the typical power hungry siblings.
The city of Myth Adofhaer (which seems to be forgotten by the publishers of FR) will return to Faerun with the arrival of the Sons of Vyshaan and act as the temporary capital until an Aryvandaaran city can be restored (probably Occidian). Myth Adofhaer would contribute to the bulk of Aryvandaar's population. These slumbering citizens, once awakened, would be furious that their kingdom (Siluvanede) was destroyed (Siluvanede was an attempt to recreate Aryvandaar). I'm thinking of a population between 5-6,000 (more?).
Only Sun/High Elves/Ar'Tel'Quessir will be allowed to live here and journey freely throughout the kingdom. They are a staunchly conservative lot that rejects anything non-Sun Elven, believing their superiority over all, including other Elves. Basically, they'll make other Sun elves look humble. If not addressed in the proper Elven tongue (which they all insist very much so doing, speaking in the Elven tongue, that is) they prefer to be called High Elves or Sun Elves. All other terms are considered demeaning to them. They view "Gold Elf" as a term relegated to Ar'Tel'Quessir who have accepted rule by other Elves and not part of the "true" High Elven culture. Sunrise Elf is an okay term.
High Elves from across Faerun and Evermeet will begin to slowly trickle into Aryvandaar (but by no means all or even most). Staunchly conservative High Elven clans would find hope in Aryvandaar (one of my High Elven clans will nearly completely move over to Aryvandaar, save for a few representatives in Evermeet). I'm thinking about bringing a small retinue of Durothinls there as well as High Elven members (of pure High Elven blood) of House Starym as well.
Only pure blooded High Elves will have any sort of power here. No other race or species is allowed to even live there, so it goes without saying that the concept of equal rights is very alien here.
The other inhabitants of the High Forest will be cleared out (save for Sylvan creatures) if they are in the lands of Aryvandaar. If they are Elves (and maybe druidic humans or others) they will be warned once to vacate the area. If they fail to do so, they will be attacked and no mercy spared.
Current settlements would be Myth Adofhaer (the temporary capital), the partial ruins of Lothen (it would be in the process of being rebuilt), the partial ruins of Myth Glaurach (same as Lothen), and the ruins of Occidian (what there is left, they are slowly restoring). Currently, the High Elves are solely focused on these sights as they do not want to stretch their numbers thin.
Aryvandaar will be in the throws of nigh constant combat. They will face foes from all sides; from unwilling people in the High Forest, to orcs, to other nations trying to prevent the rise of an Aryvandaar reborn.
So, what do you all think so far? Suggestions are golden, advice is invaluable.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 11:22:47
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Sounds really interesting. Wish they did it for real.
One suggestions that I would make is that perhaps the Vyshaan send some sort of haughty enjys to the lesser elven kindoms demanding they acknowledge Aryandaar as the true elven homeland.
This could lead to anything from hostility to open warfare as I doubt many non Sun elves will welcome the return of Aryandaar. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 16:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
To me, it seems like such an cool idea to bring back one of the most ancient empires in Toril's history... <snip>
You mean like the Netherese, or the Imaskari?
Yes, thats what FR needs - more UNORIGINAL "lets bring back the empire that made all those ruins". Please, no... just no. People can do whatever they want in their campaigns, but I'd like to see a wee bit of originality in the next edition.
Besides, I am so tired of elves being 'all important' to the Realms - I wish they never cancelled the Retreat... maybe in 5e they can call it 'the rout'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:58:45
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I'd settle for detailing Myth Drannor.
Aryvandaar is ancient lore that's awesome partly because it gives layers to current elven lore like their art, magic, clothing styles, customs, opinions, etc.
Actually playing up the elven politics by having a group of elves returning and 'claiming to be the lost brothers of Vyshaan' however is an excellent idea for an intrigue based elf campaign. Because the 'Sons of Vyshaan' are bound to reopen many an old enemy wound amongst the elven populace. I don't think most moon and green elves have blinded their eyes for the deaths they suffered for the Aryvandaaran Empire. In most moon and sylvan elven minds Aryvandaar was a terribly warhungry empire, capable of tyrannical slaughter with ruthless efficiency. It's unadapted return would be a threat to all the North. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 04:21:07
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Oh, I don't mind it in the past, and I certainly wouldn't mind more details about their culture... details are always good. I just don't want anything else 'coming back'.
Last time that happened, we got an entire planet.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 04:53:02
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I like Bladewind's idea about a group of elves returning claiming to be brothers of Vyshaan. That would be good for intrigue. However, I will agree with Markustay that an entire empire coming back would be a bit much, especially since elves can no longer afford to have a war amongst themselves. The Vyshaan descendants might want to build their own settlement though. I'm glad Myth Drannor was restored (finally), truly, but Aryvandaar might spark a lot of hatred.
Markustay, the elves are important to the Realms. If they disappear, the Realms will stop being the Realms (and I will stop reading the books). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 15:33:43
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| I think the Vyshaan would be subtler than the Shades. Question is would they swallow their pride for a moment and not name their realm Aryvandaar, blending in with the Caerilcarn would give them time. Eventually an army would be raised in Evermeet against them. Depends if Khelben is alive, the Vyshaan would try to secretly manipulate the Lord's Alliance, so that other powers in the North ignore the elf civil war, most humans have never heard about Aryvandaar. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 15:38:22
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I don't agree with the above statement. It would seem to me that
a reborn Vyshaan empire would be even more ruthless and arrogant
that the Fey'ri, just with what detail we have on the culture
to date. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 16:58:25
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I will say that the idea is interesting, but doesn't take into account the perceptions and sensibilities of other power blocs around Faerun. Most would have at least some sort of interest in preventing the rise of what would almost certainly be a hostile kingdom, most especially Evermeet. I am predicating this, of course, on Ao's 'reset' of Torilian geography in 5th Edition.
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
*SNIP*
The city of Myth Adofhaer (which seems to be forgotten by the publishers of FR) will return to Faerun with the arrival of the Sons of Vyshaan and act as the temporary capital until an Aryvandaaran city can be restored (probably Occidian). Myth Adofhaer would contribute to the bulk of Aryvandaar's population. These slumbering citizens, once awakened, would be furious that their kingdom (Siluvanede) was destroyed (Siluvanede was an attempt to recreate Aryvandaar). I'm thinking of a population between 5-6,000 (more?).
*SNIP*
This part, I do not find implausible. The reappearance of a whole city full of (likely hostile) Sun Elves would be a major, major event in Faerun, and would have folk flocking to it for one reason or another. And that being said, I am of the opinion (and it is just that - my opinion) that there is simply no way the Powers That Be in Faerun would allow this reappeared community to evolve into a major power bloc. The cities of the North, backed up by Evermeet and others, would likely do everything they could short of open conflict to keep it contained. And there might be a point where they'd consider even that.
But a reappearing city of Sun Elves? The idea has merit, certainly - a Faerunian 'El Dorado', if you will. And there's nothing to say they wouldn't have imperial ambition - I just think that the reality of the sociopolitical scene would very likely preclude it.
- OMH |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 19:01:24
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| The elves cannot afford to fight amongst themselves. They have too many other enemies. Sun elves still view themselves superior to other elves, and I'm not saying that a sun elf city is impossible, but another Crown Wars would further deplete the population. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 22:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
To me, it seems like such an cool idea to bring back one of the most ancient empires in Toril's history... <snip>
You mean like the Netherese, or the Imaskari?
Yes, thats what FR needs - more UNORIGINAL "lets bring back the empire that made all those ruins". Please, no... just no. People can do whatever they want in their campaigns, but I'd like to see a wee bit of originality in the next edition.
Besides, I am so tired of elves being 'all important' to the Realms - I wish they never cancelled the Retreat... maybe in 5e they can call it 'the rout'.
I find myself agreeing with Marky-Mark. While I rolled my eyes a bit at the reindroduction of old empires like Netheril, in that specific case I felt it was a nice way to bring the shadowfell elements of 4e into the realms, so it did add something.
Still, enough is enough. I'd like to see more focus on new, rising civilizations such as Many-Arrows or Returned Abeir, as well as continuing focus on established, struggling, and even declining areas of the realms, rather than having the dead empires return to life.
Kind of takes away from the "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair" vibe that the fallen empires were supposed to invoke in the first place. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 02:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'd like to see more focus on new, rising civilizations such as Many-Arrows or Returned Abeir, as well as continuing focus on established, struggling, and even declining areas of the realms, rather than having the dead empires return to life.
Chances are good that you may get your wish, at least with Many-Arrows, as all we are assured of is a geographical reset. If they made mention of resetting the sociopolitical situation, I missed it entirely, although I would be willing to bet they are keeping their cards close to the vest on that point.
They did say, however, that history is not being reset - what has come before has come before, Sellplague, timejump, the works. Ao is simply returning the planet to the way it looked before. At what stage 'before' entails (before the 1370's? Before ToT?), I will be quite interested in seeing.
However, by that same token, Returned Abeir is destined to be sent back to its home world. No more Laerakond. You will be able to open up the Third Edition Guide to the Realms, flip to page 231, and there will sit the map of Toril, and how it is supposed to look, before the Sellplague and after the Sundering both. I confess I will shed no tears. While I did like Returned Abeir, I felt it didn't quite 'fit' where they'd put it.
That, however, brings up another thought. Why couldn't Aryalome's idea work there? Sure, there will be a few elves from Toril here and there, but why not have the city appear in Laerakond just before Ao waves his hand and does his yadda-yadda-bing routine? There are no indigenous elves in Abeir, Returned or otherwise - so who's to say the Sellplague and the collision of the worlds couldn't have set the stage for the reappearance site of Myth Adofhaer in a place vastly different than it should have shown up at?
Just a thought.
- OMH |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 02:39:08
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That's a shame regarding Abeir- I understand some people were upset about parts of the continent literally falling on top of established kingdoms, but still, Returned Abeir was one of the most interesting aspects of 4e realms, offering untapped, unexplored potential. I would have loved for them to do more with it.
I'm honestly leery about anything they might do with Many-Arrows. I love that it exists and I do *want* more on it, but at the same time I'm aware that a large portion of the fanbase that Wizards is catering to, and presumably some of the writers, are very much in the old school in respect to their perceptions of orcs- unintelligent, primitive fodder to be killed by low level adventurers. In relation to a debate I was having over the nature of continuity in another thread, I've seen several people argue that portraying orcs as anything but that is in violation of their sacred continuity, which I see as a bane on story progression.
I've done my own homebrew development on Many-Arrows- I'd estimate of similar scope to the OP's work here, which is impressive, even if I don't agree with the idea of bringing more old empires back. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 03:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm honestly leery about anything they might do with Many-Arrows. I love that it exists and I do *want* more on it, but at the same time I'm aware that a large portion of the fanbase that Wizards is catering to, and presumably some of the writers, are very much in the old school in respect to their perceptions of orcs- unintelligent, primitive fodder to be killed by low level adventurers. In relation to a debate I was having over the nature of continuity in another thread, I've seen several people argue that portraying orcs as anything but that is in violation of their sacred continuity, which I see as a bane on story progression.
I honestly don't believe that, considering what has already been printed, it would be feasible to fall back on the 'me orc, me swing club, you die' stereotype. Just paging through Neverwinter puts the lie to that. And they are, in fact, orcs from Many-Arrows that are depicted there. Yes, they have emotional issues, and are generally hostile, but that does not mean 'stupid' or 'unable to comprehend tactics'.
I think, at worst, you will see orcs in the World of Warcraft school of orc theory. Not as successful, obviously, and nowhere near as obnoxious, but thinking beings who have their own kingdom. And to have your own kingdom, it is impossible to be composed of an entirety of savage, unreasoning brutes. The 'purists' on this issue have not, it seems to me, factored this into their arguments.
- OMH |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 04:16:43
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| Speaking of Many-Arrows, at least to my knowledge, the prologue and epilogue of the Orc King has not really been addressed, and that showed the progression the orcs, and even their interaction with humans. Not only that, but there were other characters in that book I would like to see more of (Hralien, Tos'un). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 18:09:05
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Funny you should mention that. I had (mentally) written a short story set in that time period that Drizzt talks about, and was inspired by that prologue.
I've reworked it just a tad, and hopefully it will see the light of day sometime soon. It won't officially be FR, but a clever reader will realize what it is. 
I was really let down that WotC never ran with that lore. I guess they got too much "they're copying WoW!" feedback and went another route. Too bad... I was really expecting them to drop half-orcs in 4e in favor of actual orcs as one of the main PC races. Instead we got baby Godzilla, I Dream of Genie, and Hellboy.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 03:26:01
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| I was hoping Salvatore and WofC hadn't forgotten about that scene |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 13:10:55
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| Back on topic, wasn't there an official hook about the Sons of Vyshaan in a rulebook? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 14:10:04
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I think it was Lost Empires.
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Aryvandaar Reborn?
