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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 05:50:33
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the Empire of Netheril be now? This is one of those what-ifs that I can’t help but ask, considering the possibilities that could, in the long run, benefit the people of Toril, and be an avenue for good storytelling, which ultimately, or so I hope, would delight most FR fans…
It was Mystryl’s and the phaerimm’s fault that Netheril fell… And Karsus was partly to blame. It is likely that he had considered other options and tried out some alternatives… and in the end resorted to casting his devastating spell that doomed his homeland…
So here’s the situation: The phaerimm’s lifedrain persists to annihilate the empire’s fertile land. Candlemass is dead, carrying with him the secret ingredients of a spell that dispells the atrophic effects of the lifedrain on crops. And Karsus is exploring other means to save his gradually dying empire, so are a couple of archwizards from other enclaves… Some of them work in concert, temporarily setting aside petty (or serious) rivalry. What would Netheril be like then?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 11:39:38
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| I love the idea presented. Brilliant! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 11:48:31
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| It was not Mystryl's fault. She didn't force or even encourage Karsus to cast the spell, nor to pick her as its target. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 13:32:14
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I think Netheril still falls, only in bloody civil war stretched out over years or decades, rather than one big crash.
The problem is that there isn't an "Empire of Netheril." As we know from Ed, it is, at best, a loose confederation of city-states, and in actuality much more a general area of terrain where a bunch of city-states exist. Each one has its own ruler, its own policies, its own rivialries. And we saw that by the time of the Fall, open war was beginning between the enclaves.
Remember also that no one knew about the phaerimm. The presence of an external, powerful foe might be enough to do a bit of uniting, but the phaerimm were very careful to avoid giving the Netherese that glue. So instead you have the land dying of an obviously magical cause that no one can pin down. All of the enclaves will blame each other. They'll all deny it, and the more they deny, the more convinced they'll become that someone's lying. Distrust blossoms, and it's every enclave for itself in a desperate grab for diminishing resources. We know how that plays out: civil war.
Absent someone of absolute authority actually dragging a real, live, confessing phaerimm in front of the archwizards, I don't see any way Netheril doesn't tear itself apart. And even if that did happen (and I'm blanking on anyone who might have that authority to the egomaniacal archwizards, with the possible exception of the Terraseer), I'd give even odds that the archwizards wouldn't believe them.
In short, I think the snafu with Karsus's Avatar was a best case scenario. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 14:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It was Mystryl’s and the phaerimm’s fault that Netheril fell…
If someone ever needs a good example for the word biased this is it
It was Netherils fault that Netheril fell. It would have happend any way even if it had took more time. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 15:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think Netheril still falls, only in bloody civil war stretched out over years or decades, rather than one big crash.
The problem is that there isn't an "Empire of Netheril." As we know from Ed, it is, at best, a loose confederation of city-states, and in actuality much more a general area of terrain where a bunch of city-states exist. Each one has its own ruler, its own policies, its own rivialries. And we saw that by the time of the Fall, open war was beginning between the enclaves.
The alliance of the zulkirs, albeit a shaky one, in Thay's bloodiest civil war to date, is an example of why and how even the most powerful and selfish wizards can unite: to protect their possessions and to crush a common enemy.
Karsus knew of the phaerimm's existence, and that they were responsible for their land's deterioration. He could just trap one and force it to confess; or lead his fellow archwizards to the site where the concentration of the lifedrain was strongest. If not, well, he could research for the 'cure' himself. He had a bunch of able arcanists in his enclave to help. Or he could contain all the phaerimm in a prison similar to the Sharnwall.
With the phaerimm and their lifedrain out of the way, Netheril may prosper. Magical research continues. A few enclaves open their doors to outsiders, allowing them to study the arcane arts in their colleges (with likely huge tuition). Portals are established to explore other planes of existence, other worlds, making them an additional source of wealth...
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 15:47:47
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-Hmm...I would assume that the Elves of Cormanthyr and Netheril would eventually come to blows. That probably would have been fairly devastating for Faerûn, two titans like that going at each other.
-I would imagine that the residents of Low Netheril might have tried to rebel against High Netheril, eventually. Even if the Phaerimm threat was eliminated and their lifedrain spells stopped, there was a certain degree of tension between those living on the land and those living on the ground.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was not Mystryl's fault. She didn't force or even encourage Karsus to cast the spell, nor to pick her as its target.
-The jury is out on whether or not the most amazing and handsome Archmage this side of the Narrow Sea would have been able to do what Mystryl was tasked with, constantly repairing the Weave such that it wouldn't collapsed upon itself. She didn't believe it, which is why she did what she did, but given that it's an alternative future that never happened, who knows what might have been if... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 16:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Hmm...I would assume that the Elves of Cormanthyr and Netheril would eventually come to blows. That probably would have been fairly devastating for Faerûn, two titans like that going at each other.
That would most likely force their neighbors to take sides, as such conflict would eventually affect them, too.
It can happen this way: Being geographically close to Netheril, Cormanthyr is severely affected by the magical storms brought about by the endless magical experiments of the Netherese (the same reason the phaerimm went againt them). Their mythal is weakened; their weather is in chaos; and their spells fail spectacularly at times. They send ambassadors to negotiate with the nearest enclaves, kindly asking them to stay a little bit farther, explaining the adverse effects of their experimentation to their homeland. The selfish archwizards refuse, forcing the elves to resort to violence. They perform High Magic and create a plethora of tornadoes and devastating meteor swarm. But the Netherese, equally powerful, are able to protect themselves. Their shield holds, and, given that their mythallars access magic directly through the Weave, never fails, while the elves's mythal continues to deteriorate and their magic to become erratic.
Instead of trying to win a hopeless war, the High Mages of Cormanthyr decide to focus their resources to strengthening their mythal... It takes them three decades to do it... In the end, they leave the Netherese to themselves, and so do the Netherese. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 16:41:02
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I think the empire's fall, as a political force, would have happened anyway. Karsus' Avatar had the additional impact of destroying almost 2 scores of flying enclaves, indirectly creating the shades, Skullport, the Shadow Weave (IIRC), a "new" LN deity in charge of magic, a ban of 10+ levels of magic, killing maybe half of the Realms most important spellcasters...
My guess is that many enclaves would have fled Anauroch, unharmed, and become independent major forces for centuries to come.
Without Karsus' Avatar, the Realms would be VERY different. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 16:48:49
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I don't perceive the phaerimm as being an unstoppable threat at all. Their method of warfare was obscure, their dealings with the Netherese were treacherous and duplicitous - to me this indicates they understood they were collectively too weak for any sort of direct confrontation, especially considering that they claimed to be desperately staving off the implacable (if inadvertant) genocide of their entire species. Their defunct invasion attempt in the modern Realms demonstrated that they could barely overcome the magical defenses of an elven nation which was never strong enough to challenge ancient Netheril in the histories. In any event, we know that the phaerimm were halted and contained by the sharn, without any requirement for Netheril to be around.
But even without the phaerimm, I think the archwizards reigning over a poisoned Netherese wasteland would simply expand Netheril's borders and occupy more fecund lands. Some might have taken their floating enclaves to the farthest reaches of Faerûn to claim new territory, Halruaa might've been founded in a very different way than we know. Yet I doubt Netherese civilization could be sustained indefinitely, and though many of the archwizards would form mutually beneficial alliances I seriously doubt any of these arrangements would last for too long. It was only a matter of time before somebody with too much hubris grasped for too much, if not Karsus then it would be another. Much was documented about Netheril's other problems, internal and external, and given time these factors would eventually inflate beyond the means of the archwizards to control. The civilization of ancient Netheril was just too top-heavy and decadent, it was simply destined to fall - we saw it happen in moments, but a gradual series of historical disintegrations not unlike the layered decay of the Roman Empire (along with various attempts to reforge it) would be a very plausible alternative.
Karsus was certainly great in his time, an unparalleled prodigy who might in the end have found a way to ascend to true godhood. I suspect that if he'd cast Karsus's avatar with marginal results - say, he became a demigod sort and only blew up half of Netheril - then mechanisms would be put in place to curb his destructive powers one way or another, even if these had to be installed by the gods themselves. Karsus was driven by the endless quest for power through magic, the empire was just an incidental thing which allowed him to lord over his eclectic creature comforts ... but it's likely that the greatest archwizards of Netheril would not universally tolerate being subservient to any one man, no matter how great and powerful he might be. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2012 16:59:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 19:19:17
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I'm inclined to think that without Karsus's Ultimate Folly spell, Netheril as a nation would have simply drifted apart. A major factor in the creation of the enclaves was each archwizard wanting his own place to do whatever he felt like. The "empire" was more of a localized collective than a true empire.
So given the continued destruction of the land below, I think each archwizard would have simply taken his enclave somewhere else, and left the phaerimm and the expanding desert behind.
We know for a fact that not all of the enclaves were in Netheril proper at the time of the Fall, anyway -- which I think further underscores this probability. Two enclaves came down in the Sea of Fallen Stars, and there are rumors of another in Tethyr's Firedrake Bay. It's not at all unlikely that others had ranged pretty far afield by that time, possibly even going into space. (What if there's an enclave in the Tears of Selûne? What if the original inhabitants of the Rock of Bral were Netherese who for some reason opted to leave their spaceborne enclave?)
I myself have tinkered with the idea of a far-wandering enclave being parked over one of the undescribed continents of Toril when the Fall happened, and being forced to create a new society there. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 19:37:22
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The Netheril text does describe collaborations between archwizards, it was after all an entire civilization fueled by constant magical innovation, there were academies and colleges and universities. There were also innumerable pacts and alliances and trade agreements, a complex marketplace supporting an industry of sophisticated magical and quasi-magical esoterica.
But yes, ultimately each archwizard was sovereign supreme within his mobile domain, and many declared themselves Kings of their little feifdoms. I think the only thing really unifying them was a shared passion for magic and a shared codependency on sustaining their magical infrastructure. Archwizards of skill could be entirely self-sufficient, without any reliance on Netheril-proper for anything at all (as Thultanthar attests) - except any time they'd need to access the heavily protected Nether Scrolls. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2012 19:39:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 20:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Netheril text does describe collaborations between archwizards, it was after all an entire civilization fueled by constant magical innovation, there were academies and colleges and universities. There were also innumerable pacts and alliances and trade agreements, a complex marketplace supporting an industry of sophisticated magical and quasi-magical esoterica.
But yes, ultimately each archwizard was sovereign supreme within his mobile domain, and many declared themselves Kings of their little feifdoms. I think the only thing really unifying them was a shared passion for magic and a shared codependency on sustaining their magical infrastructure. Archwizards of skill could be entirely self-sufficient, without any reliance on Netheril-proper for anything at all (as Thultanthar attests) - except any time they'd need to access the heavily protected Nether Scrolls.
Even after drifting apart, Netheril could still have ready collaborations and magical academies and such. What's building a gate or teleporting, compared to the magic necessary to shear off and float a mountain peak? For those unable to wield such magic themselves (like apprentices), a network of gates wouldn't be that challenging for the archwizards to set up. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 08:24:28
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| Most of them would move to the Sword Coast, eventually the improved mythallar would be introduced and magic to counter the phaerimm. Some of them would ally to conquer Evermeet. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 17:47:17
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Why the Sword Coast, specifically? It seemed like Netheril was already expanding in all directions and gradually moving eastward towards what we call Vaasa and the Cold Lands. Neighbouring lands were already occupied with barbarians, young human nations, dwarves, orcs, and those pesky elves ... the elves of the High Forest and Cormanthyr areas were annoyingly powerful (they even dared to steal half the Nether Scrolls!), while trade with the dwarves of the North was always necessary to obtain raw materials and crafted goods.
It still seems a bit odd to me that the Shadovar would place so much emphasis on expanding "their" lands towards controlling access to shipping on the Sea of Fallen Stars. I agree that shipping and trade is the lifeblood of every nation on the Sea ... but the Netherese never seemed interested and the Shadovar still have access to all their Netherese teleport magics, not to mention they can walk the shadows at will and happen to have an extra flying city/platform they could use for mass transport. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 18:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why the Sword Coast, specifically? It seemed like Netheril was already expanding in all directions and gradually moving eastward towards what we call Vaasa and the Cold Lands. Neighbouring lands were already occupied with barbarians, young human nations, dwarves, orcs, and those pesky elves ... the elves of the High Forest and Cormanthyr areas were annoyingly powerful (they even dared to steal half the Nether Scrolls!), while trade with the dwarves of the North was always necessary to obtain raw materials and crafted goods.
It still seems a bit odd to me that the Shadovar would place so much emphasis on expanding "their" lands towards controlling access to shipping on the Sea of Fallen Stars. I agree that shipping and trade is the lifeblood of every nation on the Sea ... but the Netherese never seemed interested and the Shadovar still have access to all their Netherese teleport magics, not to mention they can walk the shadows at will and happen to have an extra flying city/platform they could use for mass transport.
Not having read the books, I've assumed that the Shades took Sembia more for Sembia's economic might, than anything else. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 19:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not having read the books, I've assumed that the Shades took Sembia more for Sembia's economic might, than anything else.
That is correct. Telamont said so. While Shade is rich, it needs more resources for research and military expansion. And Sembia provides that. Not to mention its defense is relatively weaker compared to its neighbors, thereby making it a glaringly easier target for the Shadovar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 19:35:13
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| The strategy might be to use Sembia as a buffer state others would have to battle through before reaching the heart of Shade. Building Sembia up into a potent military/naval force is a double-edged blade, even the strongest nations often have such a blade eventually turned against them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 20:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The strategy might be to use Sembia as a buffer state others would have to battle through before reaching the heart of Shade. Building Sembia up into a potent military/naval force is a double-edged blade, even the strongest nations often have such a blade eventually turned against them.
I don't see that reasoning as readily... There's a lot of approaches to the Anauroch that don't come near Sembia. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 22:10:04
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True, but the idea might not necessarily require all possible approaches to Shade are blocked. Only that the most likely ones are buffered; other approaches across the Anauroch require more exposure to terrain and elements, at least give more warning for the Shadovar enclave to retreat. Enemies attacking Shade from the Heartlands have to be concerned about military forces in Sembia; they have to divide their own militaries up, either weakening those they can commit to attack Shade or weakening those they leave home for defense. By annexing Sembia, Shade has effectively neutralized Sembia and all her neighbours.
Besides, the Shadovar aren't invulnerable or infallible or limitless in their resources either, they've taken Sembia but obviously aren't confident or ready to take more (or they would have likely already done so). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2012 22:10:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 22:21:13
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I'd like to see them try to take Cormanthyr, or at least some portion of it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 22:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
True, but the idea might not necessarily require all possible approaches to Shade are blocked. Only that the most likely ones are buffered; other approaches across the Anauroch require more exposure to terrain and elements, at least give more warning for the Shadovar enclave to retreat. Enemies attacking Shade from the Heartlands have to be concerned about military forces in Sembia; they have to divide their own militaries up, either weakening those they can commit to attack Shade or weakening those they leave home for defense. By annexing Sembia, Shade has effectively neutralized Sembia and all her neighbours.
Besides, the Shadovar aren't invulnerable or infallible or limitless in their resources either, they've taken Sembia but obviously aren't confident or ready to take more (or they would have likely already done so).
Well, my point is, there are a lot of ways to attack Shade that don't come anywhere near Sembia. Conquering Sembia as a defensive measure is similar to barricading your house by closing only one window, and leaving all the other doors and windows wide open. That's why I'm thinking it wasn't about defense, it was about money (as Dennis confirmed). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 22:38:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd like to see them try to take Cormanthyr, or at least some portion of it.
To what end?
And why is this something you'd like to see? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 22:41:21
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The Shadovar already blasted Tilverton, and still these nations skirmish endlessly across the desolate wastelands.
But I doubt Cormyr would ever be seriously attacked, crippled, occupied, overthrown. It's protected by popularity, Realms fans crave the endless minutiae and gossip and hairstyles and romantic tales about the people and nobles of Cormyr. No amount of might and magic and shadowy manipulation will ever topple a kingdom which proudly stands at the center of four major game editions as the brightest light in the Realms. Plus, I suspect Ed would simply never allow such a thing to pass. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 23:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Shadovar already blasted Tilverton, and still these nations skirmish endlessly across the desolate wastelands.
But I doubt Cormyr would ever be seriously attacked, crippled, occupied, overthrown. It's protected by popularity, Realms fans crave the endless minutiae and gossip and hairstyles and romantic tales about the people and nobles of Cormyr.
Agreed. Though I'm not one of those fans. Cormyr would have been first on the list of realms that Shade would take if it were not for that reason.
On the other hand, I think it's also interesting to have Cormyr taken by Shade; then, after a decade or two, have them regain their independence, as Telamont has become occupied by other matters, and as his appointed servants are unable to control Cormyr's supposed puppet leaders.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd like to see them try to take Cormanthyr, or at least some portion of it.
To what end?
And why is this something you'd like to see?
We rarely see an all-out war between elves and humans. Elves are often busy warring with each other, and so are the humans. Also, I'd like to see the elves become more like forest nomads, than established as a nation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 30 Mar 2012 23:16:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 00:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd like to see them try to take Cormanthyr, or at least some portion of it.
To what end?
And why is this something you'd like to see?
We rarely see an all-out war between elves and humans. Elves are often busy warring with each other, and so are the humans. Also, I'd like to see the elves become more like forest nomads, than established as a nation.
Well, that covers why you want to see it... But why would Shade attack Cormanthyr?
And it's in the past, but we've seen Sembia fight elves... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Mar 2012 00:05:26 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 00:34:19
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To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 01:33:55
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I expect the Shadovar already spy on every area which interests them, using divination magics, gathering information through networks of merchants and informants, and moving through the night in every major city of interest. Regardless of their deeper plans, they'd certainly keep themselves informed about a close and powerful threat like Cormyr.
I think that efforts to internally divide and destabilize Cormyr would meet much resistance. While Sembia's leadership was characterized by squabbling dilettantes, Cormyr's leadership is constantly monitored, protected, scrutinized, influenced, and even culled by the War Wizards. Shadovar duplicity would need to target and deceive this purple police force, which is no easy deed. I'm not saying it's impossible, and there's never any shortage of immoral selfish corruptible weak leaders who can be manipulated, even in Cormyr ... but I think the spy game (used alone) just wouldn't work well against Cormyr.
You might utterly detest the notion, Dennis, but a very logical option for shades determined to (invisibly) wage war against Cormyr would be to locate and recruit every Zhent and Manshoon clone they could find. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 02:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The strategy might be to use Sembia as a buffer state others would have to battle through before reaching the heart of Shade. Building Sembia up into a potent military/naval force is a double-edged blade, even the strongest nations often have such a blade eventually turned against them.
I'm more inclined to assume that the Shade saw Sembia for what it is... an instant source of revenue and financial investment.
Let's face it. The Shade Enclave wants almost all of the Realms to fall under it's dominant shadow. And that will require a significant amount of gold and financial powerplay to achieve.
So while Sembia may act as something of a buffer-state in the military sense, for potential antagonists in the southern reaches, I'd more expect that the lure of the gold piece has attracted the Shades, and not the military prudence of defence. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 02:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd like to see them try to take Cormanthyr, or at least some portion of it.
Aside from an interesting new branch of antagonism between humans and elves, I can't really see why the Shadovar would bother.
Instead, I'd see them more than likely employing proxies to fight the elves -- ragtag monstrous groups, orcs, trolls, dark elves -- practically any evil-aligned race with a hatred for elves. Mercenary humans would, of course, probably factor into that collection of proxies as well, I suppose. |
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Had Karsus not cast his Avatar spell, where would…
