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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 04:30:18
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How could we fit a race of Snow Elves into Faerun? There has been hinted lore that some type of Snow Elves (I'm hoping against hope that they aren't the same Snow Elves from Dragon #155)live in the High Ice and the far north in a Dragon magazine.
What kind of society would they live in? Would they live in cities? How reclusive would they be? Are they handy with magic?
These Snow Elves are a very interesting. I'd really like to implement them into the Realms.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 04:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
How could we fit a race of Snow Elves into Faerun? There has been hinted lore that some type of Snow Elves (I'm hoping against hope that they aren't the same Snow Elves from Dragon #155)live in the High Ice and the far north in a Dragon magazine.
What kind of society would they live in? Would they live in cities? How reclusive would they be? Are they handy with magic?
These Snow Elves are a very interesting. I'd really like to implement them into the Realms.
Is there any particular reason you dislike the snow elves from Dragon # 155?
It's been a while since I read that article.
Rather than introduce a new subrace of elves (there are already so many!) I'd make the 'snow elves' a splinter culture of moon elves. Distinguish them from other elves by their way of life and not by physical differences.
One way to do this is to abandon the Seldarine and use other gods.
Perhaps the 'snow elves' worship Kossuth as a hearth-god and Auril as the ruling power of High Ice? |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 04:57:16
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I mainly didn't like their physical appearance and tribal lifestyle.
For me, I prefer Snow Elf types to have a very light, ice blue/white skin tone with white hair and icey coloured eyes. The Snow Elves in that Dragon had tan to brown skin, white hair, etc. I liked that they were tall, but it pretty much ended there.
Also, though it sounds like an interesting idea, there are already deities who are patrons to Snow Elves (two from another Dragon issue). Really, there are probably more sub races/races of humans than there are Elves (though I do agree with keeping them from having an overwhelming amount; I particularly dislike "Desert", "Jungle" and "Wild" Elf types). |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 04:57:18
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I'd say no snow elf cities.
How would they feed enough elves to make a city viable in the High Ice?
I'd expect them to live as foragers, although they might do a little gardening in geothermally active spots (if there are any such places where the ground stays unfrozen throughout the year).
If we keep the usual elven CON penalty (I would, for the reason given above) then things get interesting. If these elves are as relatively frail as normal elves they need an edge to survive in a harsh environment like the High Ice. Magic might provide that edge.
Maybe they have a way to melt through ice and create insulated cave-shelters? Spells that aid them in hunting? |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:00:32
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I'd love for them to have cities. I can just imagine breathtaking cities of sculpted stonework in an icy, crystalline wonderland.
For food, they could hunt northern wildlife, of course. They could also harvest several different northern types of plants.
I really dislike the CON penalty. I don't see why Elves have to be frail. It really bothers me. It's like they can't be beautiful without being flimsy. I'd prefer either no CON penalty or a boost to it since they're living in such an environment. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:05:22
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Agreed. [edit: ha! in the time it takes me to write this the two of you have several more exchanges. I was agreeing with CM's first post, about not making them a new subrace] The Realms has enough subraces as it is, just from 2e. It gets even worse if you start trying to add even a fraction of the variant races in all the various 3e splatbooks (my personal favorite: those green-dragon blooded elves. Completely ignoring the long-standing emnity between the two races, and green dragons' insatiable appetite for elf flesh).
I'd say any "snow elves" are moon elves who left the southern Realms centuries (or longer) ago. Different culture, different environment, but same race.
As for whether they'd build cities, it depends entirely on how much magic they brought with them. Cities generally indicate large populations, which require large amounts of food. Food in that quantities just doesn't exist in the far north. There's a reason "small tribe of hunter/gatherers" has been such a popular social unit in Earth's north for so long.
If the elves brought along enough magic to do the magical equivalent of either terraforming or genetic engineering, creating either the proper temperatures to mass grow food crops or modifying food crops to grow abundantly in the bitter cold, then cities become very likely. And it would be likely that the elves would be able to use the increased population that such harvests would bring to exert major influence over much of the north, simply because they have more people, and can devote less time to gathering food, than anyone else.
If, however, the elves were refugees who fled north with nothing, or lost most of their mages early in the settlement, or whatever, and they have to make do with what the far north provides, then they're likely to fall back on the same sort of "small bands that the earth can support" social structure. Much like the Vil Adanrath or some of the more remote green elf tribes. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 06 Sep 2012 05:06:44 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'd love for them to have cities. I can just imagine breathtaking cities of sculpted stonework in an icy, crystalline wonderland.
For food, they could hunt northern wildlife, of course. They could also harvest several different northern types of plants.
I really dislike the CON penalty. I don't see why Elves have to be frail. It really bothers me. It's like they can't be beautiful without being flimsy. I'd prefer either no CON penalty or a boost to it since they're living in such an environment.
I think hunting to maintain cities is highly implausible. It's just hard to swallow. They'd wipe out all the game trying to do that. YMMV, of course.
I think that if you want cities, you will need to have magical greenhouses under the ice or something like that.
Do humans living in cold places get a CON boost? If the answer is no, why gives 'snow elves' a boost?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 06 Sep 2012 15:59:23 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:10:42
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Do humans in cold areas get a Con boost? Arguably, yeah. Especially back in the time periods we're talking about, where the cold would kill off anyone who was weak, sickly, or unlucky. Also culturally, people who came from a subsistence-level farming or hunter/gatherer lifestyle would likely have grown up working at an earlier age than those in a more settled life, which would often translate into higher physical scores.
These are gross generalities, of course, but there's a reason why Earth history is filled with barbarians from the back of beyond invading and beating settled civilizations. (The inverse, of course, is also highly present) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Agreed. [edit: ha! in the time it takes me to write this the two of you have several more exchanges. I was agreeing with CM's first post, about not making them a new subrace] The Realms has enough subraces as it is, just from 2e. It gets even worse if you start trying to add even a fraction of the variant races in all the various 3e splatbooks (my personal favorite: those green-dragon blooded elves. Completely ignoring the long-standing emnity between the two races, and green dragons' insatiable appetite for elf flesh).
I'd say any "snow elves" are moon elves who left the southern Realms centuries (or longer) ago. Different culture, different environment, but same race.
As for whether they'd build cities, it depends entirely on how much magic they brought with them. Cities generally indicate large populations, which require large amounts of food. Food in that quantities just doesn't exist in the far north. There's a reason "small tribe of hunter/gatherers" has been such a popular social unit in Earth's north for so long.
If the elves brought along enough magic to do the magical equivalent of either terraforming or genetic engineering, creating either the proper temperatures to mass grow food crops or modifying food crops to grow abundantly in the bitter cold, then cities become very likely. And it would be likely that the elves would be able to use the increased population that such harvests would bring to exert major influence over much of the north, simply because they have more people, and can devote less time to gathering food, than anyone else.
If, however, the elves were refugees who fled north with nothing, or lost most of their mages early in the settlement, or whatever, and they have to make do with what the far north provides, then they're likely to fall back on the same sort of "small bands that the earth can support" social structure. Much like the Vil Adanrath or some of the more remote green elf tribes.
Yes to all of this.
I strongly prefer forager bands, but elves living in magical ice cities is also a cool idea. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'd say any "snow elves" are moon elves who left the southern Realms centuries (or longer) ago. Different culture, different environment, but same race.
[...]
Much like the Vil Adanrath or some of the more remote green elf tribes.
Interestingly, I've been tinkering with a portion of my own theory on the Vil Adranath, that posits the possibility of a small group who left their "eastern" domain for colder and more northern isolated climes, essentially becoming "snow lythari/elves."
More later. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Do humans in cold areas get a Con boost? Arguably, yeah. Especially back in the time periods we're talking about, where the cold would kill off anyone who was weak, sickly, or unlucky. Also culturally, people who came from a subsistence-level farming or hunter/gatherer lifestyle would likely have grown up working at an earlier age than those in a more settled life, which would often translate into higher physical scores.
These are gross generalities, of course, but there's a reason why Earth history is filled with barbarians from the back of beyond invading and beating settled civilizations. (The inverse, of course, is also highly present)
For what it is worth, the rules in most versions of the game don't reflect those ideas.
I don't think 'barbarians' in real history have ever triumphed over civilized people because of their supposedly superior physiques. That's Robert E Howard stuff-- strictly fictional. It might have a place in the game setting as a reflection of pulp fantasy tropes, of course, however inaccurate it may be in the real world.
I'd also add that poor nutrition in many premodern settings should arguably lower some ability scores-- but it doesn't.
Most people in a 'settled' society at even vageuely medieval tech levels are farmers who work hard.
So, no, I don't think CON bonuses are necessary in this case.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 06:27:58
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I did an article on the Snow Elves for the Elven Netbook. It wasn't so much about them, as it was about reports of 'near sightings' of them.
I gave away a few hints though - I made them snow-lythari.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 09:03:50
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'Snow-lythari' would certainly have an edge in survival on the High Ice. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 06 Sep 2012 09:14:36 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 14:29:33
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Actually, in 3e there's a firm trend that the more "wild" you are, the higher your physical stats. Check the difference between gold/silver elves and wild ones, for instance, or its logical extreme, the "feral" template. Or the neanderthal race in Frostburn. There was less of that in 2e, but then again 2e was much less focused on giving stat adjustments for everything. But even there, wild jungle dwarves were just as tough as their more civilized comrades.
I'm not weighing in with an opinion, I'm just making the point that it could go either way if the OP wants. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:34:04
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Hope Snow Elves get made into a proper race. It would be pretty neat if they lived in reclusive crystalline cities in the Far North.
I disagree with the notion that there's "too many" elven subraces. Why should there be an exact limit on the number? Are demihumans incapable of being anywhere near as diverse as humans? That's ridiculous, imo. There are many things I like about FR, but it's not the aspect that it's a completely human dominated world.
Honestly I'm more welcoming of more subraces, than completely new crude racial concepts like Dragonborn. |
Edited by - deserk on 06 Sep 2012 15:40:44 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:46:16
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Hope Snow Elves get made into a proper race. It would be pretty neat if they lived in reclusive crystalline cities in the Far North.
I disagree with the notion that there's too many "elven subraces". Why should there be an exact limit on the number? Are demihumans incapable of being anywhere near as diverse as humans? That's ridiculous, imo. There are many things I like about FR, but it's not the aspect that it's a completely human dominated world.
Honestly I'm more welcoming of more subraces, than completely new crude racial concepts like Dragonborn.
Well, I think that some gamers dislike the added mechanical complexity that comes with having a lot of subraces.
It's possible to get more variety without introducing new subraces.
The human ethnic groups are rarely described and differentiated with mechanics. Why not do the same for new demihuman cultures, instead of making subraces?
Indeed, humans are less varied in mechanical terms than any of the demihumans (assuming you aren't talking about B/X rules or something similiar). Illuskans, Mulan, and Chultans are not given stats adjustments.
If you prefer new demihuman subraces, though, that's not anything I'd call badwrongfun. To each his own.
For my own part, I prefer new cultures. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Actually, in 3e there's a firm trend that the more "wild" you are, the higher your physical stats. Check the difference between gold/silver elves and wild ones, for instance, or its logical extreme, the "feral" template. Or the neanderthal race in Frostburn. There was less of that in 2e, but then again 2e was much less focused on giving stat adjustments for everything. But even there, wild jungle dwarves were just as tough as their more civilized comrades.
I'm not weighing in with an opinion, I'm just making the point that it could go either way if the OP wants.
Sure. Either way is valid. I agree.
This is a fantasy setting for a fantasy game. As I noted in my earlier reply to your commments, the Howardian 'uber barbarian' stuff has a place in fantasy. REH certainly has a place in D&D.
My comments regarding real history and real human beings don't have to apply to the game world. I was just responding to a few of your side remarks. It's a difference of opinion on a tangential issue.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 06 Sep 2012 15:58:48 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 16:05:04
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Although their home is not so barren as the High Ice, the Icevale Elves of Mystara's Hollow World setting might be worth a look.
Sidenote-
Elves in B/X and BECMI don't have stat bonuses or penalties (very few classes-- 'elf is a class-- have such adjustments in those systems).
Icevale Elves practice infanticide of the weak and sickly.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 06 Sep 2012 16:05:33 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 17:55:47
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| Wouldn't they melt in the summer? |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 18:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Wouldn't they melt in the summer?
They all wear old black felt hats
If you knock it off the begin to melt
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 19:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Snow-lythari sounds interesting. A sort of timber-wolf type, perhaps? Dire white wolves? Hmmm, white wolves- might get in trouble with the "other" game people for that one. But still sounds really cool!
Although never described in my article, aside from some 'folklore', I did have a timber wolf in mind.
Also, this particular branch I referred to in part of the article as 'Huldrefolk' (from folklore, not any D&D/RPG race bearing that name). Huldrefolk look like tall, thin, beautiful humans (much like Fey), but they have a tail (which they usually hide around other races). These would be the same people called Maraloi in Kara-Tur (a 'lost race' of legend over there). Very pale, white skin (almost appearing translucent), hair color in the drow range (white to silver to silver-grey, getting a more greyish hue with age), smoldering blue eyes that turn red in certain light just like a wolf's. Extremely high resistance to cold, so that they dress in a simle tribal fashion more suited to warmer climes. Most of their weapons (and some of their jewelry) would be magically enhanced (made permanent) ice, mimicking other elves 'living crystal' (Elaorman) technology. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2012 19:07:59 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 20:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'd love for them to have cities. I can just imagine breathtaking cities of sculpted stonework in an icy, crystalline wonderland.
For food, they could hunt northern wildlife, of course. They could also harvest several different northern types of plants.
I really dislike the CON penalty. I don't see why Elves have to be frail. It really bothers me. It's like they can't be beautiful without being flimsy. I'd prefer either no CON penalty or a boost to it since they're living in such an environment.
They were given the Con issue, because the elves in Tolkien had such issues when compared to their human counterparts (see, Lost Roads and Other tales, chapter 6; A people's guide to Middle Earth 125-133).
If you removed the Con pissue, then you'd have to remove the Dex bonus as well, or else they'd be unbalanced, and only the ugly monsters can be unbalanced.. with more negatives than positives. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 21:21:40
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The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 22:46:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
And if there was an RPG based on tiger cubs and puppies, with tiger cubs able to rip puppies to shreds, then everyone would play tiger cubs, and no one would play puppies. That's why the playable races are balanced: so that the human F1 is no better and no worse than an elf F1, who is no better and no worse than a dwarf F1, and so on.
Edit: had to remove a typo.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Sep 2012 01:31:14 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 22:50:52
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| Wooly beat me to it. Dead spot on. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 23:05:16
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Necessary in a game. Makes less sense when you're in a fictional world. Tolkien could have his elves and high men be superior to everyone else because no one was going to come along and try to stat them all out and try to play them (that came much later).
IMO, that tension of what's necessary to make a game fair, and what makes sense from a creative standpoint in a world that has such varying cultures, has been one of the tensions of the Realms from the beginning. Well, and D&D in general. How well it's worked out has varied wildly over the years. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 23:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
Really, I’d thought they’d at least try and stay close to the lore on that one. It’s pretty well established that the stamina issue was a problem for the elves in Tolkiens work. In the original Lord of the Rings, I say that as some things were removed when they split them into the three books, it was mentioned in at least twelve different places. It was mentioned in other works as well. Oh, well, I suppose that’s what happens sometimes.
So what I presume you are saying here, is that Elves should have no disadvantages, but everyone else should?
I should point out that is it stands the plus to dexterity in many respects negates the con difficulties considerably. A few free points in survival, winter environment, which is what I gave my version of the snow elves, negates most of the cold problems that they would face, while not completely removing the fact they still live in a harsh environment.
Oh, is Nyére auta part of some elven language I’m not aware of? I’d love to know it’s meaning, as it’s also an improper expletive in yetis.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 00:00:49
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It's not as if all thinking, speaking creatures in the game setting are set at the same power level. There are plenty of 'superior' species in the game. Dragons, titans, mind flayers, etc. are all a lot more powerful as individuals than most humans or demi humans.
Demi humans that aren't so ‘uber’ are actually more interesting in fiction as well as more playable in the game, IMO. I’d rather read about (or play one of) Tolkien’s hobbits than his elves. *
Weaknesses can define a race or a character as well, or better than strengths. A character or a race that seems too ‘perfect’ is boring to me.
* The Silmarilion is a partial exception, as elves form the ‘baseline’ for that set of tales, and because we get to see the flawed side of the elves. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 00:05:07
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Sightless, I'm very much interested in your ideas on the 'frailty factor' in Tolkien's writings about his elves. You may be on to something I have missed.
Feel free to shoot me some info on the relevant passages if you don't want to post the stuff here.
Thanks, dude.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 00:24:17
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However, you can still achieve balance without artificially nerfing a stat, or using level adjustment. If you want to loose the CON negative, just dump the 1st level Feat. you have to give up something, but it doesn't have to be other stat points.
I never bothered with negatives myself - I had my own system. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 00:25:44 |
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Topic |
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Snow Elves
