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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 02:03:12
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Rather than take up otherwise useful space in other scrolls, I thought it would be more appropriate to tackle this discussion in it's own scroll.
So, most folk at Candlekeep are aware of the present lacking of the Candlekeep Compendium and the reasons for why we have yet to move forward.
Markus raised an interesting point in Brian's scroll that's got me thinking:-
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or it could just continue as-is, here, which I'd prefer, but then I think some sort of accord with WotC needs to be reached. Personally, I just don't see the need for it, but obviously others here do.
There's a part of me that really doesn't see the need for it either, but I guess we just see it as an issue of respect for Wizards.
Perhaps, what we really should attempt here, is to publicly announce a resumption of the producing the Compendium here at Candlekeep -- garner interest and proposals [though, no full submissions just yet], and a general "call-to-lore-arms" so to speak, simply to put the word out, and see what reaction, if any, comes from Wizards Legal Folk.
If it's all quiet on that front, then perhaps we could discuss what the next stage of production for the Compendium should be.
What say you all?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 05 Sep 2012 02:05:06
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 02:24:03
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| Good idea....start production and don't stop until Wotc says stop......if they don't, full speed ahead! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 02:27:31
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| I know in our PBP 2E campaign that I suggested our players each generate a piece of lore from elements within the campaign and have the Candlekeep submit them for the Compendium. We had to generate characters, and got stuck in Scornubel for a while, but we're on the road and I'm looking forward to generating some lore. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 02:32:45
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| I'm for going forward...as a non-profit effort, I don't honestly see how the Candlekeep Compendium is at all any different than the individual submissions we make here constantly. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 03:10:58
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| Amen to that and onward with the Compendium! |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 05:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I know in our PBP 2E campaign that I suggested our players each generate a piece of lore from elements within the campaign and have the Candlekeep submit them for the Compendium. We had to generate characters, and got stuck in Scornubel for a while, but we're on the road and I'm looking forward to generating some lore.
Being of the same PbP game, I like and support the idea, even if I'm unlikely to be of much help in that endeavor. It has been some time since I've read the existing lore on the heartlands.
I also feel WotC made a mistake with their discouraging policy or at the least allowing the troubles of potential liabilities fomented by ambiguity to stall the active participation of their fanbase. It does nothing to help build their following.
Paizo actually offers issues of the Wayfinder e-zine written, illustrated, compiled, and edited by Pathfinder/Golarion fans as free downloads from their web store. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 05:31:16
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Once you've stepped on a land mine, you can't un-step on it.
Surely there's someone at WotC that a moderator or owner of Candlekeep can send a courtesy e-mail to? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 06:33:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Surely there's someone at WotC that a moderator or owner of Candlekeep can send a courtesy e-mail to?
I've actually already sent two e-mails to Wizards -- one to Customer Service [late last year] and another to their Fan Site Department. This last one was back in January of this year, and I've still yet to hear back from any Wizards High-Ups on this issue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 07:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I've actually already sent two e-mails to Wizards -- one to Customer Service [late last year] and another to their Fan Site Department. This last one was back in January of this year, and I've still yet to hear back from any Wizards High-Ups on this issue.
Well that's disappointing.
Were it up to me I'd be hesitant to publish anything online in the absence of a response.
I suppose putting the word out in the hopes of getting their attention is the next best step.
You want I should post a lore call on the WotC forums? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 05 Sep 2012 07:34:22 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 08:00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
You want I should post a lore call on the WotC forums?
I had considered doing that as well, but since you're regularly active over there [as I recall], and if it's not too much of a bother, then please do so, Jeremy. It would assist my efforts here significantly.
Thank you.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 08:05:16
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From what I was lead to believe, in private conversations, is along the lines of "don't hold your breath" in regards to us getting an official go-ahead. The general consensus from 'folks in the know' (but no-one official) is "just go ahead and do it". Thats pretty much the best we can hope for... which is no different then how the CKC operated in the past. I think 4e just got us "a little bit jumpy" (with apologies to Starman).
If they wanted Candlekeep to stop, they would have said so a long time ago. If we continue with the compendium they way things have been, and at some point they ask us to stop, then we stop, immediately. I really doubt that will happen, but if it does, then we should of course respect their wishes.
And if people like Brian Cortijo, the James brothers, and George Krashos are on board, don't you think they'd hear about it first? I am sure they'd let us know if we were rocking the boat long before the boat gets torpedoed.
Now, if we could talk Erik Boyb and Steven Schend to contribute... well... that would be like having our own little piece of 'old school' FR right here.
I can dream, can't I?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2012 08:35:55 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 08:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I had considered doing that as well, but since you're regularly active over there [as I recall], and if it's not too much of a bother, then please do so, Jeremy. It would assist my efforts here significantly.
DONE
Let me know if you desire any changes to the wording. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 05 Sep 2012 08:28:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 09:15:34
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That's pretty much how I was considering the wording, Jeremy. Thanks again.
If I have time over the coming weekend, I'll drop by Wizards and post some extra thoughts I've been having about this.
[I think I'll have to blame Markus. He's really started making my dusty mental SageCogs whirling and clicking away on what to do about the sorry state of the Compendium.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 09:16:06
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Some times you have to kick something to 'get the crap flowing again'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 10:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From what I was lead to believe, in private conversations, is along the lines of "don't hold your breath" in regards to us getting an official go-ahead. The general consensus from 'folks in the know' (but no-one official) is "just go ahead and do it". Thats pretty much the best we can hope for... which is no different then how the CKC operated in the past. I think 4e just got us "a little bit jumpy" (with apologies to Starman).
If they wanted Candlekeep to stop, they would have said so a long time ago. If we continue with the compendium they way things have been, and at some point they ask us to stop, then we stop, immediately. I really doubt that will happen, but if it does, then we should of course respect their wishes.
The difference is that the Compendium was last put out before the 4E Fan Site policy came out. Between the 4E Fan Site policy and the GSL, it simply wasn't the same friendly environ we had before. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 12:01:22
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| Planewalker.com revived the fanzine, so why not Candlekeep |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 15:57:49
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| In my flitting around on the web I noticed that Canonfire! has kept on with Oerth Journal without any issues from WOTC. I'd say WOTC won't even flinch if the CKC came back. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 16:13:53
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| Are either of those sites watched by WotC staffers, and have WotC freelancers as active members? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 16:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are either of those sites watched by WotC staffers, and have WotC freelancers as active members?
I may be a little off, but Shemmy [Todd Stewart] helped out with the PLANESCAPE fanzines, and the unofficial 3e PSCS as I recall.
But it has been a long while since I've checked the credits of those materials, so, again, my remembrances of who contributed to those products might be slightly inaccurate. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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daarkknight
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 16:59:30
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| I also want to jump on "bring it back" bandwagon. I miss the Compendium. But a question I have is, would it be open to all eras, as it seems that the new books put out by the design team are going to be created to allow play in any era/edition? |
"That's it!"
Quote attributed to Talor Stormhammer, paladin of Helm, when fighting a frost giant. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 17:08:56
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| I believe Candlekeep's stated goal and purpose has always been "edition neutrality," which, despite the different rules, would allow for lore from any era of Toril's history. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 18:57:44
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I think that WotC won't want to squash the CKC.
This last GENCON I feel, generated a lot of positive support for them. I say go for it! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are either of those sites watched by WotC staffers, and have WotC freelancers as active members?
Let's phrase it differently, has any of the resident WotC staffers/freelancers even hinted at NOT going ahead with the CKC? As a previous poster said there is a lot of lore posted within the pages of the forum - e.g. Eric Boyd's iteration of Illefarn, of course Ed en THO's contributions... and WotC haven't cast their fireballs, chainlightnings, summon lawyer, etc. at Candlekeep... collecting this lore and adding new lore into a compendium is not so much different than what is near everyday business as usual on the forums.
I'd say let's rock & roll and work on publishing the next volume of the Candlekeep Compendium. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are either of those sites watched by WotC staffers, and have WotC freelancers as active members?
Let's phrase it differently, has any of the resident WotC staffers/freelancers even hinted at NOT going ahead with the CKC? As a previous poster said there is a lot of lore posted within the pages of the forum - e.g. Eric Boyd's iteration of Illefarn, of course Ed en THO's contributions... and WotC haven't cast their fireballs, chainlightnings, summon lawyer, etc. at Candlekeep... collecting this lore and adding new lore into a compendium is not so much different than what is near everyday business as usual on the forums.
I'd say let's rock & roll and work on publishing the next volume of the Candlekeep Compendium.
The staffers have not made their presence known to us. The freelancers are independent, and not a part of WotC.
WotC hasn't cast summon lawyer at us, it's true -- but at the same time, we've not published since the GSL and Fan Site policy came into effect.
We have a prominence in the FR fan community that most sites don't have, and we thus need to tread a little more carefully than thisismyrandomFRsite.com. WotC hasn't said anything to us yet, but we've also not given them reason to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:21:38
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To me there still is no difference between all the lore posted on the forums since GSL / FanSite policy and the same lore collected in a Candlekeep Compendium (even with disclaimers and acknowledgment of rights)... I don't recall when the policies came into effect, but fan lore is and can still be found on the main page of Candlekeep, articles, maps, etc. Is this different from having the same or similar in an iteration of the CK?
ps. with the prominence of CK within the FR fan community, isn't there also an unwritten obligation to provide to that FR fan community? |
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daarkknight
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:30:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
I believe Candlekeep's stated goal and purpose has always been "edition neutrality," which, despite the different rules, would allow for lore from any era of Toril's history.
Good. As much as I hated what they did to the Realms in 4e, I don't want them (WotC), or Candlekeep, to just ignore what happened. No Bobby Ewing dreams here. |
"That's it!"
Quote attributed to Talor Stormhammer, paladin of Helm, when fighting a frost giant. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From what I was lead to believe, in private conversations, is along the lines of "don't hold your breath" in regards to us getting an official go-ahead. The general consensus from 'folks in the know' (but no-one official) is "just go ahead and do it". Thats pretty much the best we can hope for... which is no different then how the CKC operated in the past. I think 4e just got us "a little bit jumpy" (with apologies to Starman).
If they wanted Candlekeep to stop, they would have said so a long time ago. If we continue with the compendium they way things have been, and at some point they ask us to stop, then we stop, immediately. I really doubt that will happen, but if it does, then we should of course respect their wishes.
The difference is that the Compendium was last put out before the 4E Fan Site policy came out. Between the 4E Fan Site policy and the GSL, it simply wasn't the same friendly environ we had before.
Wait, they had some personal policy out preventing people making their own lore and sharing it for no profit? That's about stupid. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:42:04
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Edit2: Fansite 'policy'. They obvoiusly need a new one, since 4th edition is no longer being produced (voiding the necessity to sign a defunct GSL). We are technically already in violation of this policy, ergo, producing new material would not make our current situation any worse then it already is. In order to follow this policy, we would have to remove ALL downloads currently offered.
Bear in mind that much has changed within WotC since that fansite policy was released. In fact, they've done a complete turn-around concerning many things.
And if half our CKC staff is also professional freelancers that have done work for them (and obviously know how to write FR lore), doesn't that mean we should be even less inclined to be 'messed with'? If anyone should feel 'threatened' by their participation it should be them, and yet, nearly all of them (I think GK may be the only exception - not sure anymore) are wiling to move forward with the CKC.
{sigh} I am really starting to think certain people would rather see FR wither and die then get 'renewed'.
One last thing - why does this even need to be discussed? How many netbooks has Snowblood done since 4e came out? No disrespect intended, but we really don't need anyone's permission to do this. I can produce my own damn netbook tomorrow and no-one can tell me not to (except for WotC, who seems to be ignoring these types of efforts).
Where would we be if Brian James had thought like this and been afraid to self-publish his Grand History? He was rewarded for his efforts! Sometimes you have to grab the bull by the horns.
EDIT: I call Thaeravel!
I've already begun it, as a tie-in to something else I've been meaning to write. Whether the CKC gets going or not, nothing prevents us from writing our own articles. Maybe someone else will come along and a put them all together in some format. Doesn't matter to me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2012 21:56:28 |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 21:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are either of those sites watched by WotC staffers, and have WotC freelancers as active members?
I'm sure Canonfire! is watched by staffers as is Dragonsfoot. I seem to remember someone in WOTC saying as much. Mike Mearls has posted on DF, the OD&D discussion forum and other places and he is aware of what is going on in various fan communities.
Also, Canonfire! along with Candlekeep, Planewalker and Vaults of Panduis were listed as official fan sites in the 3.X days. I'd say WOTC is very aware of what is going on at each site. Since no other of these sites has seen a C&D or had trouble I'd say Candlekeep and the CKC is safe.
As for the Freelancers I don't know. I don't keep track of who writes for who so I can't answer that. I know that Canonfire! has had a few past designers on it.
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Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 22:07:35
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the fansite policy is there just to 'cover their asses', nothing more.
Unless someone is stupid enough to try and make money off the material (thats happened), or is using 4e-specific rules (which has also happened).
I've had people ask me to enable 'buy prints' on my DeviantART site. I won't do it because I'm not an idiot - at that point I would be making money off someone else's IP, and whether they 'like me' or not, they would have to come after me in order to keep their intellectual property from becoming 'public domain'. This is not a decision based upon what they want to do, but rather, what they have to do. The fansite policy just gives them something to point to when they need to go after someone. Thats all it is (IMHO).
Unless we do something that pisses them off, there is no reason for them to come after us. At the same time, in the event they do, we stop after getting a warning. There is no down-side to moving forward, because having them say "No!" is the same paradigm we operating under right now. Being afraid of the 'no' is exactly the same as if we've already heard it.
Look at who's written for the CKC in the past. Its not hurting them - its their damn 'farm team'! They've even acknowledged some CKC lore in sources, and mentioned Gray Richardson by name. We even use a name for this site that is part of their IP - How much more 'approval' are we looking for? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2012 22:09:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 22:21:47
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There's a difference between an individual doing something, and a group of people on a website named for a specific IP doing something. WotC could shut us down in a heartbeat, if they wanted to, because they own the name Candlekeep.
I'm not saying they would do something like that -- I'm just saying that we very much exist at WotC's sufferance.
There's two choices, really, until WotC gives us official sanction:
1) We have a forum where we can communicate, and we don't have a site-sponsored collection of fanlore, and WotC lets us be.
2) We put out our site-sponsored collection of fanlore and the whole site gets shut down for it, because of some lawyers.
Maybe you're willing to risk option #2. I'm not so willing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Future of Candlekeep's 'Compendium'...
