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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 22:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe you're willing to risk option #2. I'm not so willing.
I agree with you Wooly in that there is a risk here. However, there are more than two possibilities.
#3) We put out our site-sponsored collection of fanlore and WotC asks us to remove it pending a review of their fan site policy.
It seems to me like the strategy here is to get their attention, so let's get their attention.
I want to write about Laerakond. The Dusk Ports, specifically. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 22:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a difference between an individual doing something, and a group of people on a website named for a specific IP doing something. WotC could shut us down in a heartbeat, if they wanted to, because they own the name Candlekeep.
I'm not saying they would do something like that -- I'm just saying that we very much exist at WotC's sufferance.
There's two choices, really, until WotC gives us official sanction:
1) We have a forum where we can communicate, and we don't have a site-sponsored collection of fanlore, and WotC lets us be.
2) We put out our site-sponsored collection of fanlore and the whole site gets shut down for it, because of some lawyers.
Maybe you're willing to risk option #2. I'm not so willing.
Just a note. They specify this
"does not allow you to publish, distribute or sell your own free-to-use games, modules or applications for any of Wizards' brands including, but not limited to, Dungeons & Dragons"
As far as I know, we're not creating a new game, nor developing any computer apps. Some people may develop modules... but I think most of us would just be developing lore with some crunch added. The question just comes down to is creating something like a prestige class or magic item or spell creating a game (to which I'd say no, but some could argue otherwise), and considering all these are aspects of the game that in their books they ACTIVELY encourage us to develop, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot for doing so (let's face it, the above 3 along with monster creation is something they want us doing). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:03:46
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What if a separate section was created on the forum for people to submit their own lore. Two sticky threads could be created. One thread would be an organized index of all the threads on the forum, and the second would be a 'best of the best' section.
It would just be forum members sharing lore, pretty much what we do in other areas of the forum whenever someone says, "In my Realms..."
This way it wouldn't necessarily be officially sponsored by the site itself, but rather it would be something individual members of the site add to and update.
Then if someone was inspired they could create a wiki that included the best of the best fan lore, or create PDF downloads hosted off-site.
It's a sort of middle ground that gives people a place to add and create lore for the Realms, but avoids having Candlekeep as a whole give its official stamp of approval. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are either of those sites watched by WotC staffers, and have WotC freelancers as active members?
Please don't take offense at my frankness, but I think we need to get off our high horse regarding this site's supposed unique status as some special flower on the internet.
Candlekeep is one of many fan sites devoted to one of the many settings of D&D, even though Forgotten Realms may be their flagship setting, those other settings are important IP for WotC. Candlekeep may see the participation of more freelancers and authors than other sites (and I think that's by virtue of having more material written by active authors than other settings), but everyone one of those other sites are engaged in similar activities.
If we want to talk about visibility, some sites have won Ennies (awards even WotC submits products for consideration), for instance Dragonlance Nexus won Gold in 2007 and Planewalker won Silver in 2005 and 2007. They continue to put together gazetteers and netbooks. DL Nexus has a whole netbook on a new continent tied back into DL lore. I believe the DL Nexus is operated by someone who freelanced for 3e Dragonlance.
On other settings, Bruce Heard continues to expand Mystara lore on his blog. There is always the Vault of Pandius with their extensive gazetteer pages. I've seen several TSR alumn (Cook, McComb, Heard, Mentzer, Varney) visit various forums to discuss their involvement with the different settings. I think Dragonfoot is one popular place, the Piazza is another where I've definitely seen those names drop in.
Of course there is a right way to go about fan lore. I trust the Compendium will adhere to the proper procedures. The GSL has been neutered for the most part when WotC found it hampered any real discussion or free hype for their products. Of course many companies have continued to publish (for sale) material readily converted between 4E, 3E variants, and other non-d20 systems. I'm not sure of the specifics of this, but I've seen it done and even bought products from well-known third party publishers, so this is entirely possible.
For the most part, if we're doing everything right, WotC will likely ask components be taken down or edited if they don't like it. If they are truly unfair and shut down the site for some reason without giving us the chance to rectify the situation, it will amount to brand name suicide. They would have collapsed one of the best fan resources they had (which cost them nothing to begin with), scattered authors and freelancers to their respective blogs and site, and have on their hands a disenfranchised fanbase that would make the edition wars seem like puppies play fighting.
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 06 Sep 2012 00:51:35 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 01:39:58
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:08:26
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| If we're talking about the possibility of re-starting the CKC, then I would like to respectfully jump on board. I've had a few ideas percolating for a while, ever since the last time bringing it back was discussed- a couple of years ago, if I remember right. I've been hoping for some time now that this would happen, and I fell, as MT does, that it's long past time to get going. If the only thing holding us back is the possibility of a C&D, then shouldn't we at least test the waters and see what happens? I doubt they'd shut down the entire site- more likely, they would just tell us to stop and pull whatever we had at that point. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 03:02:23
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| Candlekeep has feared retribution from WotC, and that is completely understandable. If CK doesn't want to do it, I will. I hate not seeing the great fan-fiction. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 03:07:08
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I sincerely hope that Candlekeep's reluctance to go forward with the Compendium hasn't been interpreted as part of any sinister motive on our parts. Because that's not the case. I'm just as anxious as either Markus, Matt, Brian, or any of our other scribes who have each expressed eagerness to get things moving again.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Candlekeep has feared retribution from WotC, and that is completely understandable. If CK doesn't want to do it, I will. I hate not seeing the great fan-fiction.
But I am curious, Matt, about how you do away with your own fears for retribution regarding the possibility of a new Compendium being hosted at loremaster.org?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 03:35:35
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| With the new direction of the Realms, there is no way in Hell wotc shuts this site down....unless there is $ being exchanged or made from the lore(or something utterly blatant and out of line goes on and we know none of that's the case here)They can afford any more negative PR. And since everything realms goes through Ed....if Candlekeep is still nervous....ask him in his scroll what his thoughts are. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 06 Sep 2012 03:36:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 08:22:32
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Wooly's logic is faulty.
Read the fansite policy - we are already in violation of it (we distribute gaming material).
There is no such thing as A LITTLE BIT GUILTY. You either are, or aren't (and ignorance of the law is no excuse, and 'ipso facto' does not apply in this case - this is not criminal law).
We've already failed our 'hide in shadows' roll - they know about us. We either take everything down, or move forward. I have to agree with Dark Wizard' - if our 'special status' means we are the only fansite not able to produce Netbook material, well, then thats not really any status at all, is it? Its like being proud of being the guy who cleans the whitehouse toilets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 11:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I sincerely hope that Candlekeep's reluctance to go forward with the Compendium hasn't been interpreted as part of any sinister motive on our parts. Because that's not the case. I'm just as anxious as either Markus, Matt, Brian, or any of our other scribes who have each expressed eagerness to get things moving again.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Candlekeep has feared retribution from WotC, and that is completely understandable. If CK doesn't want to do it, I will. I hate not seeing the great fan-fiction.
But I am curious, Matt, about how you do away with your own fears for retribution regarding the possibility of a new Compendium being hosted at loremaster.org?
Easy. I don't have that fear 
I don't think WotC will see it as a negative to their business, and I don't see them coming after anyone who does some fan-fiction. Until they do, I don't think it's worth fearing. Even if they do, they are usually kind enough to send a C&D, rather than a soul-crushing lawsuit 
I always took CK's recluctance to do a Compendium as a rebuke of 4th Edition under the banner of legalities. Now that 5th is coming along, it the conversations are starting up again. |
Edited by - Matt James on 06 Sep 2012 11:44:04 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 11:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I sincerely hope that Candlekeep's reluctance to go forward with the Compendium hasn't been interpreted as part of any sinister motive on our parts. Because that's not the case. I'm just as anxious as either Markus, Matt, Brian, or any of our other scribes who have each expressed eagerness to get things moving again.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Candlekeep has feared retribution from WotC, and that is completely understandable. If CK doesn't want to do it, I will. I hate not seeing the great fan-fiction.
But I am curious, Matt, about how you do away with your own fears for retribution regarding the possibility of a new Compendium being hosted at loremaster.org?
Easy. I don't have that fear
I don't think WotC will see it as a negative to their business, and I don't see them coming after anyone who does some fan-fiction. Until they do, I don't think it's worth fearing. Even if they do, they are usually kind enough to send a C&D, rather than a soul-crushing lawsuit
I always took CK's recluctance to do a Compendium as a rebuke of 4th Edition under the banner of legalities. Now that 5th is coming along, it the conversations are starting up again.
This... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 13:51:26
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| I would be interested to particpiate in the Candlekeep Compendium if i am allowed to do so. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 14:07:43
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I think if Sage can secure a go ahead from Big Al....this next edition may be a quick trilogy |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 06 Sep 2012 14:07:56 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I always took CK's recluctance to do a Compendium as a rebuke of 4th Edition under the banner of legalities.
Oh, that certainly wasn't my intent. I'm actually quite distressed to hear this. I just hope it wasn't an all-pervasive view across other online Realms communities.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I would be interested to particpiate in the Candlekeep Compendium if i am allowed to do so.
Certainly.
Once we've the okay, I'll see about including you in the specialised section of Candlekeep we have set up for Compendium chatter. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:17:30
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| One thing to clarify. Sage is on a good path here. If you can get an official endorcement of some kind from WotC (Fan Site stamp-of-approval)--that is obviously ideal. I'll help either way. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I sincerely hope that Candlekeep's reluctance to go forward with the Compendium hasn't been interpreted as part of any sinister motive on our parts. Because that's not the case. I'm just as anxious as either Markus, Matt, Brian, or any of our other scribes who have each expressed eagerness to get things moving again.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Candlekeep has feared retribution from WotC, and that is completely understandable. If CK doesn't want to do it, I will. I hate not seeing the great fan-fiction.
But I am curious, Matt, about how you do away with your own fears for retribution regarding the possibility of a new Compendium being hosted at loremaster.org?
Easy. I don't have that fear
I don't think WotC will see it as a negative to their business, and I don't see them coming after anyone who does some fan-fiction. Until they do, I don't think it's worth fearing. Even if they do, they are usually kind enough to send a C&D, rather than a soul-crushing lawsuit
I always took CK's recluctance to do a Compendium as a rebuke of 4th Edition under the banner of legalities. Now that 5th is coming along, it the conversations are starting up again.
It had nothing to do with 4E, and everything to do with the rather draconian GSL, the much later and overly vague Fan Site policy, and even things like the short-lived Gleemax with it's user agreement of "if it's on this site, we own it and don't even have to acknowledge that we got it from someone else".
I'm honestly getting rather tired of having to explain this. WotC could shut us down in a second, because they own the name Candlekeep. Is it any wonder that with something like that in mind, we would prefer to make sure we're not doing something that they'll bring out the lawyers for? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:19:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
One thing to clarify. Sage is on a good path here. If you can get an official endorcement of some kind from WotC (Fan Site stamp-of-approval)--that is obviously ideal. I'll help either way.
Of that, I am certain.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:24:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Certainly.
Once we've the okay, I'll see about including you in the specialised section of Candlekeep we have set up for Compendium chatter.
Thank you! |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 06 Sep 2012 15:24:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
One thing to clarify. Sage is on a good path here. If you can get an official endorcement of some kind from WotC (Fan Site stamp-of-approval)--that is obviously ideal. I'll help either way.
That's all I can ask for, too. Heck, I could submit twenty pages of stuff right now -- I've got a batch of Hooks ready, three fully written up Realms-based versions of warforged, and an NPC that I had some fun dreaming up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:29:14
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So the issue is that I don't think CK is going to get that official stamp-of-approval. I think this project should go forward, as it has in the past. The OGL never allowed for the use of specific Forgotten Realms IP. The GSL didn't affect that either. Looking back, the OGL never approved for Forgotten Realms content to be produced.
Things to keep in mind.
* Don't sell the works. Keep the compendium and fun fan-fiction project. WotC gets free publicity and we get our compendium. It's win/win
* OGL and GSL should not be brought into the argument. It's a huge subject that I don't think I can begin to open up here. If you want to read more about it my good friend, and IP attorney, pontificates about it on Loremaster with a column called Protection from Chaos: http://loremaster.org/content.php?123-protection-from-chaos
* This project will never get off the ground if you are waiting for WotC to articulate a new policy for fan-sites that would allow you to use their IP.
Finally: It is completely reasonable and acceptable that there is a healthy fear of legal issues that could arise. I'm not trying to beat anything over your head. I think the project should (and could) go forward. I am willing to accept that burden. If WotC asks me to stop, or to not process (or anything between), I will completely agree to do so. It's their intellectual property. I'm just a rabid fan like everyone else here. No one is challenging WotC's property. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:35:40
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| Oh one thing to recall, it should be advertising free, because that indeed is a way of getting paid for content. I do not see ads at candlekeep so should not be an issue now. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 15:37:21
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Correct. No ads. Here are some things that will generally protect us as well as give warm fuzzies to the content IP holders that we are not usurping their works:
1.Fan works do not deprive the owner of the source material of income
2.Fan works may work as free advertisement and promotion of the original source material
3.Fan works are usually non-profit.
4.Fan works do not copy, or attempt to substitute for, the original work
#4 is of note because we do not want to offer alternate options to RSEs. That's where you start to get into trouble. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 16:04:15
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| Matt, how would you propose we work in terms of rules-sets -- specifically, 4e? [I'm wondering whether we can use 4e rules in potential submissions, since that's been a particularly murky part of the existing Fan Site Policy.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 16:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It had nothing to do with 4E,
Officially, I have no doubt that concerns about the fansite policy of Wizards was an issue. I think it's a concern several of us shared.
But unofficially I don't doubt for a second that 4th edition was the elephant in the room, because more than once it was stated that people wouldn't support a Compendium project with 4th Edition Realms material in it because that would be supporting and condoning the 4th Edition era of the Realms.
Not looking to start a side conversation here. Just sharing my impression of how things went down.
. . .
Question: would links embedded in articles for the Compendium help make the content IP holders (aka WotC) happy, provided those links pointed to WotC's website?
For example, suppose an article riffed off of a post in Waterdeep News and included a link back to the post that inspired the article.
Would this be OK in the sense that it helps drive traffic to WotC's website/provides free advertising? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 06 Sep 2012 16:37:06 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 16:37:16
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Interestingly, rules are the easiest part to get past. No company can protect rules of a game. It's a big misconception that people have. The only known case that even comes close is the landslide arguement that WotC got past the courts on the term and action of "tapping" a card. That's a whole other story, for another time. It was written about by my attorney on Loremaster. Also, you should note that when you conform (sign-up for) the GSL, you are actually giving away some of your rights in return for permission to use images that WotC has.
After all is said and done, we need to make sure WotC is well aware that we are writing fan-fiction for the love of their setting. We cannot sell the works, or try to pass them off as being official. We cannot undue what they have already done, and generally, we need to respect the work that has come before (no rewriting the Time of Troubles, or the Spellplague).
Star Wars fans have been doing this for years. It's a good benchmark to look at. Also, a group did a fan-film about the Firefly series. This falls into the same boat.
Edit to Add: Jeremy, yes that would help a ton. The more you can point to their product(s), the better. We are here for the Realms, not our own version of it. We are fans first. |
Edited by - Matt James on 06 Sep 2012 16:38:38 |
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The Future of Candlekeep's 'Compendium'...
