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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 00:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
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Nope, there's nothing wrong with it. But I believe diversity in a neutral society with the tendency towards evil makes it more interesting. Thay's a living proof of that: the Zulkirate never discriminates on gender.
I agree on the diversity part and having nations with different cultures is part of making a diverse campaign setting. Also, a zombie filled wasteland doesn't really have a lot of gender diversity issue .
 I was referring to pre-Szass Tam Thay.
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I don't think Shade is meant to be chauvinistic, I never got that impression when reading about it, although I never really felt it was a neutral society either. My impression of Shade is a thin veil of high society and culture covering a scheming, violent and murderous society. In the return of the Arch wizards series, I always felt a kind of dark menace veiled behind the Princes polite facade.
Perhaps not intentionally, though as years passed and there seems to be no diversity change in the ruling class of Shade, one can't help but wonder. Maybe it's Telamont's subtle way of defying Shar after he learned of his wife's murder (that is, if Shar generally favors females over males). Or, they exist as direct opposite of the drow society; so one can compare and see what one gender's dominion over the other does to the entire society.
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Then again I am not aware of any novels actually portraying life outside of the Palace in Shade.
Well, Melegaunt already gave us an idea what it would be like. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 01:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not to seem like I'm picking on anyone in particular, but I confess I'm a bit concerned about this whole emphasis on harems. Writing about a harem can too easily come off as kitschy and extremely misogynist. Doesn't mean it can't be handled correctly--just that it's a live grenade.
I rather think a more respectful way to do harems is to have them contain both male and female "wives," but that's crossing into the Diversity in the Realms thread. 
Cheers
What about something there involves the nightparade.
1359 DR myrmeen lhal confronts and escapes the nightparade in Calimport
Lets assume we move 20 years forward in time, the night parade could have reformed, one member could for instance have used shapeshifting abilities to visit lots of harems in Calimport by faking the apperance of the masters of those harems
When he has rebuild the strength of the nightparade do it attempt vengeance against myrmeen lhal by attempting to abduct a daughter or son from a noble family there is important for myrmeen lhal
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 01:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
quote:
Nope, there's nothing wrong with it. But I believe diversity in a neutral society with the tendency towards evil makes it more interesting. Thay's a living proof of that: the Zulkirate never discriminates on gender.
I agree on the diversity part and having nations with different cultures is part of making a diverse campaign setting. Also, a zombie filled wasteland doesn't really have a lot of gender diversity issue.
I was referring to pre-Szass Tam Thay.
quote:
I don't think Shade is meant to be chauvinistic, I never got that impression when reading about it, although I never really felt it was a neutral society either. My impression of Shade is a thin veil of high society and culture covering a scheming, violent and murderous society. In the return of the Arch wizards series, I always felt a kind of dark menace veiled behind the Princes polite facade.
Perhaps not intentionally, though as years passed and there seems to be no diversity change in the ruling class of Shade, one can't help but wonder. Maybe it's Telamont's subtle way of defying Shar after he learned of his wife's murder (that is, if Shar generally favors females over males). Or, they exist as direct opposite of the drow society; so one can compare and see what one gender's dominion over the other does to the entire society.
quote:
Then again I am not aware of any novels actually portraying life outside of the Palace in Shade.
Well, Melegaunt already gave us an idea what it would be like.
I think there would be little or no changes in the ruling class of Shade just due to the lifespan issue....positions of power rarely if ever open up due to that and everyone fear of Mr T. I pity the fool who crosses Telamont in his own home |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 02:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
No love for Myrmeen Lhal?
She's part of Alusair's court, so I kinda included her.
Actually, that, right there, is a tale just waiting to be told by either Ed or Brian Cortijo [preferrably, both on the same book].
Alusair's court takes the centre stage for a fine romp of swords and political intrigue across the breadth of the Forest Kingdom. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 02:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I think there would be little or no changes in the ruling class of Shade just due to the lifespan issue....positions of power rarely if ever open up due to that and everyone fear of Mr T. I pity the fool who crosses Telamont in his own home
The long lifespan is a good point. However, most ruling class in almost all societies tend to live longer than ordinary mortals.
Any female need not cross Telamont to gain position of power. Like Hadrhune, she can be an all-out sycophant. Or simply, work doggedly to become a very powerful wizard. That alone would catch Telamont's attention and likely elevate her to a higher rank. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 10:21:27
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Hmmm...female-only heroes in a novel. Sounds like it's time for a kick-ass elven sisterhood  (and yes, this could include drow and half-elves, since they do have elven blood). Just my two coppers. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
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New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 19:14:26
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I'd second Dmitri Flass - I have always found her fascinating. Certainly not your typical Red Wizard. Her story needs to be told.
I used her as a 'background villain' in my last FR campaign. More 'backdrop' then villain, actually. The Thayans wanted the attacks on their caravans to Mulmaster to stop (so the PCs were working for Thayans, although they did not know that). Since the caravan never arrived, she never made an appearance (which is what was supposed to happen, but I was prepared for any possibility).
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Hmmm...female-only heroes in a novel. Sounds like it's time for a kick-ass elven sisterhood (and yes, this could include drow and half-elves, since they do have elven blood). Just my two coppers.
Sisterhood of the Traveling Boobmail?
Sorry, couldn't resist. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2012 19:16:47 |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 19:26:36
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Aside from Dahlia, I'd like to see a story about Jheshri Coldcreek, the relationship with her parents, and her time with the elemental magi.
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"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 20:23:13
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How about female Dwarves?
We have Morgalla 'the bard' from Elfsong, and that one from the Moonshae novels (who's name I can't find anywhere... useless Wiki's...)
There is also the lovely Half-orc from the Sellswords novels, Arrayan Faylin. I don't know if she has any 'class' (pun intended), but a female half-orc is pretty damn rare, and rarer still for being considered beautiful (even by human standards).
There was that Elf woman from Darkvision. Not Ususi, the other one (although I think BC used her elsewhere, so she may be dead). IIRC, she was certainly no stereotype.
Come to think of it, Ususi would be a suitable contender for this thread, as would a female shade from Nethril (I don't know if there even is any - the novels were very male-centric in this regard). Can't have an FR novel without Netheril and/or Imaskar popping-up all over the place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2012 22:22:23 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 20:52:32
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If the goal is to sell to a feminist audeince then Harem is not the way to go, unless its made up of dudes or it belongs to a Lesbian character.
I'm thinking instead of maybe a Vyrlokan female Paladin of the Red Knight, an female Doppelganger Assassin, a female Knbold dragon sorceress, and a human (Mulan) bard transgendered (born male, identifies female).
Just think that would make an interesting party to build a story around. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 22:20:49
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I was dead set against the 'harem' angle as well, but then someone mentioned Calimshan, and I myself mentioned the Old Empires - Harems would be a common theme to both regions (if the story were to span Faerun, which I think is the intent).
If you worked in the angle that this was a group of female protagonists who have "had it up to here" with the lax 'male' attitude of acceptance toward slavery in so many realms, then it could be presented in such a way as to be palatable to a female audience ("You can't count on men for anything. If we want this to happen, we have to do it ourselves.")
'Freedom Fighters', but with a very specific goal. Now, if the missing girl (presumably the kick-starter for such a storyline) was someone important, then all the more believable. Any fairly young (13-17) girls around that could fit the 'victim' profile? Someone who's parents are nobles, or the very least, rich merchants? It would probably work even better if the abductors didn't know who they had (although that plot twist sounds familiar...)
Azoun's daughters would have been perfect, but that period (and those characters) are already fairly well filled-in; it would be a stretch to use them (and probably step on some bit of canon somewhere). Plus Alusair being so young would leave out other possible characters (like Alias).
A visiting (Waterdeep?) princess from Shou Lung could work. A bit too stereotypical, maybe. The "we have to get her back before we are all in trouble" angle is interesting, but a bit too 'tropey', me thinks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2012 04:17:59 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 23:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was dead set against the 'harem' angle as well, but then someone mentioned Calimshan, and I myself mentioned the Old Empires - Harems would be a common theme to both regions (if the story were to span Faerun, which I think is the intent).
If you worked in the angle that this was a group of female protagonists who have "had it up to here" with the lax 'male' attitude of acceptance toward slavery in so many realms, then it could be presented in such a way as to be palatable to a female audience ([i]"You can't count on men for anything. If we want this to happen, we have to do it ourselves.")
'Freedom Fighters', but with a very specific goal. Now, if the missing girl (presumably the kick-starter for such a storyline) was someone important, then all the more believable. Any fairly young (13-17) girls around that could fit the 'victim' profile? Someone who's parents are nobles, or the very least, rich merchants? It would probably work even better if the abductors didn't know who they had (although that plot twist sounds familiar...)
Azoun's daughters would have been perfect, but that period (and those characters) are already fairly well filled-in; it would be a stretch to use them (and probably step on some bit of canon somewhere). Plus Alusair being so young would leave out other possible characters (like Alias).
A visiting (Waterdeep?) princess from Shou Lung could work. A bit too stereotypical, maybe. The "we have to get her back before we are all in trouble" angle is interesting, but a bit too 'tropey', me thinks.
Well my old fav Bronwyn was a slave at one point....there could be a story there for Elaine to tell. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 03:39:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'd second Dmitri Flass - I have always found her fascinating. Certainly not your typical Red Wizard. Her story needs to be told.
Agreed. She's the only zulkir capable of quelling the heated arguments of her fellow zulkirs without sounding commanding. She sees reason while others feel passion. Also, given the hints in HL, I wouldn't be surprised if it's eventually revealed that she actually has strong ties with the Zhents. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 02:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was dead set against the 'harem' angle as well, but then someone mentioned Calimshan, and I myself mentioned the Old Empires - Harems would be a common theme to both regions (if the story were to span Faerun, which I think is the intent).
If you worked in the angle that this was a group of female protagonists who have "had it up to here" with the lax 'male' attitude of acceptance toward slavery in so many realms, then it could be presented in such a way as to be palatable to a female audience ("You can't count on men for anything. If we want this to happen, we have to do it ourselves.")
'Freedom Fighters', but with a very specific goal. Now, if the missing girl (presumably the kick-starter for such a storyline) was someone important, then all the more believable. Any fairly young (13-17) girls around that could fit the 'victim' profile? Someone who's parents are nobles, or the very least, rich merchants? It would probably work even better if the abductors didn't know who they had (although that plot twist sounds familiar...)
Azoun's daughters would have been perfect, but that period (and those characters) are already fairly well filled-in; it would be a stretch to use them (and probably step on some bit of canon somewhere). Plus Alusair being so young would leave out other possible characters (like Alias).
A visiting (Waterdeep?) princess from Shou Lung could work. A bit too stereotypical, maybe. The "we have to get her back before we are all in trouble" angle is interesting, but a bit too 'tropey', me thinks.
Actually, MT, you seem to have read my mind. That was kind of the idea I was going for, and now you've given me an even better idea- what if the abductee was one of Azoun's "unknown" offspring? Do we know for sure that they were all male, or how many there were? If one of his bastards was a girl, it would be a pretty good reason for Alusair an/or Myrmeen to go to the rescue. And I like that angle of women who've had it with men not getting anything done. Sounds a little like MY life, actually.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:39:41
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Forgot Sharantyr, she's amazing! Loved her in the Shadow of the Avatar series. I would love more Ed books on the Knights of Myth Drannor and how Dove and Sharantyr joined up, set before the ToT. That time period is when I was introduced the Realms (via Pool of Radiance on my Commodore 128 computer) and is definitely my favorite!
Unfortunately the Knights of books (after Knights of Eveningstar) seemed to get off track and more about War Wizards and Vangerdahast and random Zhents than the Knights themselves and weren't that great to me. But I still want more because Ed's tales of low level adventurers (male or female) running around the Dales in the 1340s/50s/60s would be GREAT. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:55:11
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A harem plot as discussed does nothing for me. It feels fairly cliche especially with female heroes angle. It rings of a false construct to amp up a hollow call of "Rawr, Gurl Powah!"
To say nothing of the cliche use of a harem concept. From Calimshan, to Mulhorand, to Shou Lung, all these places fail to hit the mark at times because they're presented in this stereotypical, mustache-twirling, menacing foreigner manner. Filling a typical niche (or even a stereotype) is fine up to a point, but at least give it a spin to make it interesting. This straight-forward method gives no flesh for the skeleton of a caricature shown of these peoples.
A harem doesn't only have to mean a 'royal brothel' (though that could be one meaning), and if it does in Realms canon, maybe it's one thing that should be changed to increase storytelling possibility. A harem could potentially be a collection of the most powerful women in a given kingdom. They may not be powerful in the sense of a personally strong adventurer-type, but they have the ear (and other parts) of the ruler, personal connections, and the palace watch, servants, and bodyguards at their command. If they wished a person harm, they have but to say so. Many could even be from wealthy or influential backgrounds. They are there not only for the pleasure of the ruler, but perhaps to bear him an heir. For some women, this possibility alone is cause for voluntary participation in the system.
If a female heroes of the Realms book or anthology were to be compiled, I would prefer to drop the harem premise and have the ladies focus on traditional adventures. You know, be heroes, like the guys.
Now I'm just going with what's put forth by scribes on this harem topic (and I don’t mean to pick on any scribe). I just think we can take this up a notch or two (and I don’t mean by invoking RSEs either).
If the harem plot were a set requirement, I would shake up the theoretical plot under discussion by making the lady bastard of Azoun (or whoever) enter the harem of her own accord with the goal to take charge (and she does). This character is a princess by blood but not name. Some individuals may be fine with playing nice with the ruling Obarskyrs, others likely seethe with jealous and the simple thought of “Why not me?”. Why be a subject and not a sovereign when they share the same bloodline. If they can’t rule in Cormyr, then perhaps somewhere else would have better sense. And once the lady bastard has one old kingdom under her influence (and their armies and battlemages), perhaps she would turn her sights on her homeland.
This is all under the radar of course, both to preserve the villainess’s life (War Wizards would have something to say if they found out) and to give the story greater suspense by keeping this point half-obscured to the heroes and even their support/employers.
Where the agents of Cormyr come in, be they native Cormyrean women or adventures, is to discern the true fate/intentions of this rogue royal offspring. Perhaps she staged a kidnapping to cover her tracks and the agents don’t know she has ambitions for not one but two thrones. Perhaps the agents are sent to kill her, but she now is a favored of the ruler. Killing her is an act of war and vendetta. Perhaps she truly was innocent and someone else is pulling the strings. What do the agents have to do? Enter the harem themselves as a harem girl? As official emissaries? Sneak in? What happens to complicate matters when they get inside? There are many ways to spin this now that even they do not know the true intentions of the bastard rather than it being a straight-forward rescue mission. Maybe they were led to believe it was a typical rescue, but then all hell breaks loose.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 04:29:31
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@Dark Wizard - it is precisely that - "Rawr, Gurl Powah!"
Its not for us, its for the 'young adult' female reader who is looking for something a little less imbecilic then traveling pants, a babysitter club, or 'shiney vamps'.
The idea is to get new fans into the setting, and by showing young women that FR is a setting where they are empowered, we have a chance of getting them interested.
Now, if the story is written by a good author, has a good plot, and showcases a good swath of the Realms, then the rest of us can enjoy it as well. Just remember that it is a novel/series with a RW purpose. It is exactly what it sounds like (which doesn't mean its automatically bad). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 04:30:04 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 04:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Hmmm...female-only heroes in a novel. Sounds like it's time for a kick-ass elven sisterhood (and yes, this could include drow and half-elves, since they do have elven blood). Just my two coppers.
This could be good, I'd read it , especially if EC writes it ..this snip is from Elaine Cunninham's site...
"Sure, there are stories I'd like to tell. I recently listed a few of these on a discussion over in the Candlekeep forum, and a "kick-ass elven sisterhood" in on that wish list. "
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 04 Sep 2012 04:41:13 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 04:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Dark Wizard - it is precisely that - "Rawr, Gurl Powah!"
Its not for us, its for the 'young adult' female reader who is looking for something a little less imbecilic then traveling pants, a babysitter club, or 'shiney vamps'.
The idea is to get new fans into the setting, and by showing young women that FR is a setting where they are empowered, we have a chance of getting them interested.
Now, if the story is written by a good author, has a good plot, and showcases a good swath of the Realms, then the rest of us can enjoy it as well. Just remember that it is a novel/series with a RW purpose. It is exactly what it sounds like (which doesn't mean its automatically bad).
I can guarantee my16 year old daughter, who is looking for something more intellectual than sparkly vamps, would not have interest in a story about kick ass ladies doing cool stuff.......but here's the twist ........they are in a harem! Yah! Isn't that empowering, women who have to make themselves sex slaves just to exercise any power at all.........uhhhh, no it isn't. At least that's what she said when we discussed it earlier. She said a harem based story sounded every bit as degrading as the way Bella is the emotional doormat of that series. Her words, but I did tell her I agreed. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 05:11:44
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Catering to a demographic can sometimes seem like awkward overreaching. Even then some of the biggest blockbuster novel series (and not just ones with shiny vamps) with a young adult female (or just female) following have been criticized for lack of agency for the lead character. Characters doing stuff and making choices is kind of the butter to the bread of heroic fantasy. It's a complex issue.
I think one of the best solutions for this is to have more female authors writing D&D and FR novels with characters of that demographic (or close to it). Just get good writers and let them go at it. Too much editor interference from a marketing perspective could ruin things. Not every book will strike the right chord, but I'd bet it would give FR a good backlist of suitable novels when the right one hits and builds a good following. I haven't read it yet, but stuff like Brimstone Angels is probably headed in the right track without blatantly going after a specific demographic other than fantasy readers (and I guess more specifically D&D/FR novel readers).
Really the only other option is to dial up the marketing editorship to '11' by having the marketing team write the book with a ghostwriter, copy the format of the most popular YA series but transferred to a D&D/FR milieu. This is how some of those series are written, like ones about babysitters clubs and such. Probably will not be a breakout series, but it could very well be a solid steady series.
I'm surprised regular Realms novels aren't done this way, aside from the Awlinson thing, which was shortly dropped. Many publisher owned series are written by authors on a for-hire basis and put under a house pen name. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 12:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I would look to read something about Red Knight, even a short story involving some of her priests would be good.
She is one of the more interesting of the newer deities.
Erik
Scott
I very much agree. I plan to play and/or write a female cleric/paladin of the Red Knight one of these days. My concept is just so atypical and interesting--sort of an Athena-wise-warrior type.
Cheers
[/quote]
This sounds sounds very intriguing. I hope to read it soon. |
Edited by - Thauranil on 04 Sep 2012 12:23:31 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 15:45:50
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This whole thing about "harems" and "lady situations" is, I think, going the wrong way. That's been done, and done pretty well in some cases, terribly in others.
The best example, probably, of this "winning through submission" thing would be Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel books (which I personally love). I don't think a Realms "harem" novel would ever match up with Kushiel's Avatar, and it shouldn't try to. We've seen that story. Let's tell another one.
I don't want to read heavy-handed novels about female heroes overcoming traditionally oppressive female situations. I want to read novels about female heroes triumphing in situations where their gender doesn't matter. I want them to do things that male heroes do, not have their own subset of "acceptable" adventures to go on. They should do what the guys do, because why not?
If you guys haven't read it, you should check out "The Legend of Bold Riley," which is a (non-FR) graphic novel by Leia Weathington (published by Northwest Press) about a hero in a fantasy-version of India who goes on Indian-themed adventures, with mostly female characters who need help and quests fulfilled, etc., the only change of which is that the hero is female. She does everything "one of the boys" does, and succeeds in a way that is both very feminine and also very heroic. There's no submission or crass sex appeal--just a woman being a hero. Check it out! (I will give the caveat that there is lesbian content, if that would offend you.)
That's the kind of story I want in the Realms. Not necessarily the girl-on-girl aspect, but a female hero who is just that--a hero. Notice I haven't used the word "heroine"--a female character is just as deserving of the title of "hero" as a male one.
Also, I don't think necessarily the author has to be a woman. A man with a facility for female characters could pull it off (I know I try quite hard with my female characters), but I think a female writer would have a definite advantage.
I think Erin Evans is a great voice for female heroes in the Realms. If you haven't read the God Catcher or Brimstone Angels, you're missing out on some really, really good female-voiced FR fiction.
Also Rosemary Jones does GREAT female-voiced fiction. Check out City of the Dead.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 16:30:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
No love for Myrmeen Lhal?
She's part of Alusair's court, so I kinda included her.
Actually, that, right there, is a tale just waiting to be told by either Ed or Brian Cortijo [preferrably, both on the same book].
Alusair's court takes the centre stage for a fine romp of swords and political intrigue across the breadth of the Forest Kingdom.
Much as I love working with Ed, I don't think that's the story we'd wind up telling. There are so many strong women in Cormyr's long royal history (Suzara, Gantharla, Gorauna, Enchara, Filfaeril, Alusair... it's not a short list) that it would be almost impossible not to write about all of them. I could very easily see a Cormyr: A Novel style book focusing on these royal ladies instead of the high wizards in the backdrop/history chapters, but I doubt very much it would interest the numbers of people necessary to convince the books folks to cram it onto the schedule. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 16:39:05
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| Well said, Erik. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 18:03:32
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| Forgot Laspeera! One of my favourite females. Add her to the Cormyr women I need to hear more about. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 19:50:04
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Wow. Why is the assumption that the protagonists are IN a harem? 
I was thinking more along the lines that they are searching for someone who went missing, and have to track that person (it could even be male if you think about it) through several 'slave lands' before finding him/her.
They would not be in harems, accept to destroy them (or rather, their owners). It would be more like modern detectives following a human trafficking operation. Of course, early-on we could insert one 'spy' recued from a harem into the group (but thats something authors can tinker with). 'harem' would just be the backdrop for a very broad, realms-spanning adventure featuring primarily women characters. It could get pretty gritty, and even include things like genies, succubi, dopplegangers - all 'monsters' that have plied the coin-lass trade in the Forgotten realms.
Hell, give me a bored dragon posing as a prostitute - its way more creative then some 'elder wyrm' lying on top of a treasure hoard in some cave, waiting for adventurers to come and kill it.
And if you make it a male dragon polymorphed into a female 'soiled tressym' (okay, not my best work...), that just brings in whole 'nother layer of 'icky'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 19:51:36 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 19:55:16
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The more I think about it....the more I think some of the past female heros have been forgotten in this discussion....if you look back there seems to be quite a few....out of what 230+..I've read 220 ish...to me hero in novel terms, means main character, as in hero of that novel. Which sums up what’s important..."screen time" and importance to the story.
When i first started this scroll I found myself nodding my head in agreement and asking where are the female heros? But I think I , and us have jumped the gun on this one. I mean you can always do better....but there are alot more than I ever thought and surely I missed a few.
We have these females who play the major(or equivalent to the major male role) hero type in these:
Azure Bonds - Alias
The Wyver's Spur
Song of the Saurials
Masquerades - Alias and Olive Ruskettle
Spellfire - Shandril
The Crown of Fire
Hand of Fire
Waterdeep
Tantras
Shadowdale - Midnight
Druidhome Trilogy - Robyn Kendrick
The Parched Sea- Ruha
The Veiled Dragon
The Night Parade - Myrmeen Lhal
Soldiers of Ice - Martine of Sembia
Elf Shadow - Arilyn
Elfsong
Silver Shadows
The Dream Spheres
Thornhold - Brownwyn
Daughter of the Drow - Liriel
Tangled Webs
Windwalker
War in Tethyr - Zaranda Star
The Simbul's Gift - The Simbul
Curse of the Shadowmage - Mari Al-maren
Stormlight - Storm Silverhand
Finder's Bane - Hollie and Jas ?
Tymora's Luck
Evermeet - Amlaruil
Silverfall - Sylune, Dove, Storm , Alustriel, The Simbul, Laerul, Quilue
The Shattered Mask - Shamur Uskevren
Heirs of Prophest - Larajin
Sands of the Soul - Tazi Uskevren
The Crimson Gold
The Magehound - Tsigone
The FLoodGate
The Wizardwar
Temple Hill - Lhasha Moonsilver
War of the Spider Queen 6 books...- Allisza, Danifae, Hallistra, Quenthel
The Alabaster Staff - Kehrsyn
Mistress of the Night _- Feena , a werewolf
Maiden of Pain - Ythnel
Queen of the Depths - Tu'ala'keth
Bloodwalk - Morgynn
Darkvision - Ususi
Frostfell - Amira
Elmister's Daughter - Narnra
The Last Mythal 3 books - Sarya Dlardrageth
The Lady Penitent trilogy - Halisstra
The Depths of Madness - Fox at Twilight
The Howling Delve - Meisha
Stardeep - Kiril Duskmourn
The Crypt of the Moaning Diamond - Ivy
The God Catcher – Nesterix an Tennora
Mistshore – Icelin
The City of the Dead - Sophraea Carver
The Chosen of Nendawen trilogy - Hweilen
The Empryean Odyssey 3 books – Alisza
Brimstone Angels 2 books - Havilar and Farideh
Venom in Her Veins – Zaltys
I know I missed a few but still that a lot of diversity right there.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 20:20:55
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Right, and in almost every instance we have a female hero interacting with a GROUP of male heroes/villains. The female is the 'token', in most cases.
The obvious exception being the Suarials books - Olive and Alias were both main characters, and the 'male' wasn't even remotely human.
I just had thought: What if Filfarril (who has a lot of 'unknowns' in her background) created clones of her two daughters at an early age? Considering her affiliations (The Harpers and The Chosen, etc), she could have done this without Azoun of Vangerdehast knowing (she may have done this as reaction to her son's death). Then, during the whole devil dragon/Ghazneth affair, these disappeared (there was scene in which vangerdehast found the 'genetic material' of the royals ruined, so they couldn't be brought back, so someone was obviously busy destroying all such contingencies). Filfaeril and whomever helped her create the clones) would have been aware of their disappearance, but she would have been afraid to tell Vangy and Azoun about them (for several reasons - their very existence creates all sorts of problems in terms of inheritance).
Thus, we have two young princesses - who most of us would love see brought back - being found by someone and sold into the slave market. Somehow, the heroes catch wind of all this (Filfaeril incorporated some sort of alarm contingency if the clones ever awoke?), and a 'secret mission' is underway to get them back. This could be set-up in almost any era following Azoun's death (which allows us to incorporate most of the Realms characters).
If its set in the 4e/5e era, I wonder how Alusair's ghost would feel about meeting her younger self, very much alive? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 20:23:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 21:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Azure Bonds - Alias
The Wyver's Spur
Song of the Saurials
Alias wasn't in The Wyvern's Spur, though one of her sisters, Cat of Ordulin, was.
But either way, it still makes it relevant for me to say I would have liked to have seen some of the other Alias vessels.
And actually... Finder's original objective was to forever preserve a magical copy of himself. And Finder was quite old, so it appears that immortality may have been built into Flattery.
So put that together with the fact that Cassana was pretty vain herself -- and all that, mixed together, makes it possible that the Alias vessels are immortal. So it is possible that they'd still be around, post timejump.
Granted, I don't think they are -- but there's certainly enough wiggle room in the lore to allow for that possibility. And that means they could feature in some female-centric tales. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Sep 2012 21:01:39 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 21:42:26
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My main objections to having a harem-related story are these:
1) Why do female characters have to deal with male oppression and its institutions? Why can't we just show them as cool female heroes?
2) As I said, it's been done. Read Carey's books. I'd rather our stories about heroines be differentiated from something that's already been covered.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Female Realms Heroes
