| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 01:32:52
|
minor spoilers, so if you havent read it, feel free to skip this post
So reading Elminster's Daughter, just slightly past half way through the book. Not really trying to discuss the book, but I want to discuss the manner in which Caladnei treats Narnra...
The manner that wizards treat ANYONE strikes me as extremely bullying. Caladnei and Lespeera basically signing Narnra's death warrant by forcing her to reveal what she knew about her parentage and then blackmail her into becoming an agent of the crown. And these are the GOOD GUYS?!?
You expect this sort of behavior from the bad guys, but Elminster seems no better, I suspect that Khelbon would be even worse.
No wonder mages are so hated and revered by so many. People on the forums act like this belief is from superstitious or ignorant realmsian equivalents of rednecks, but if I was to experience this sort of behavior or witness it, i would imagine I would also be rather anti-magic. Its downright tyrannical (Mind reamings and the such).
I've read alot over the years and I have not seen anything so...evil. As far as I am concerned the War Wizards of Cormyr are no better than the Red Wizards, perhaps just a bit less expansionist..
So what do ya'll think?
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 02:44:04
|
Ok, admission up front: I haven't read Elminster's Daughter in over a year, so the specifics are a bit vague.
That said, I think the behavior you're describing had much less to do with their being wizards and more with Caladnei and Laspeera being agents of a badly-wounded and still-reeling nation.
Remember, that at that point, no one knows whether Cormyr was going to survive or not. Look at what it was facing: its long-time king is dead, its longer-time Royal Mage is gone, one of its cities was sacked, much of the countryside put to the sword, and unknown (but thousands) of its best soldiers and wizards were slain. New and untried people are sitting everywhere, not just on the throne. Not to mention a newly-returned and hostile force (Shade), an increasingly ambitious Sembia, and the early stirrings of the Rage of Dragons.
In such a dangerous, ever-shifting state, it's hardly surprising that two of the premier surviving members of the court (one of whom is new to her position, and self-conscious) are reaching for whatever weapons they can find to make sure Cormyr survives the year. And if that requires that they do some morally questionable things to safeguard the wider realm, then they're perfectly willing to do that. After all, Narnra MIGHT survive what they send her up against (and, in fact, does), but if the realm falls, she's likely dead along with it.
Their being wizards is completely beside the point. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
 |
|
|
Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 02:56:42
|
While I understand all your points and reasons
it doesn't change the fact that these folks used their magic to compel behavior from someone they didn't know, they held her against her will, they used magic to read her mind and they used their magic to "rough her up" to get her to agree to the mind reading...
what they did goes beyond "morally questionable" at least in my opinion, into the realm of evil. They used force, they blackmailed and ultimately steered someone along a path they desired. What bothers me is not them doing this, so much as these are the good guys, this is a case of an evil means to a end.
I am certainly making progress and hope to finish the novel tonight, but Vandergahast is certainly no better, he is (at this point) planning on doing worse, or at least the same on a much grander scale. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 05:22:22
|
Vangey atleast learns from his mistake...
yeah LAspeera and caldnei were in fact doing an evil, justifiying themesleves with the old not so true phrase the ends justify the means.
She knew her father had enemies and she wanted no part and I'm sure mind you in the long rune had she not died, it was safer for her to serve cormyr than to wander waterdeep and find one of her father's enemies knocking on her door. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 07:36:10
|
Funny that you should bring this up, because I just finished book 2 of the RotAW, and got the same feeling, and the main character even says to Vagerdehast "you are no different then the Shades" (which I think he may have taken as a compliment, because they are portrayed as oh-so-clever and uber-powerful). In fact, all the mages in that series are portrayed as jerks (and idiots... the shades were doing well until book 2.. then they 'caught the stupid'). They literally throw other people's lives away (including ALL of Tilverton, which at the time had thousands of soldiers from many other realms).
But in their defense, I don't think its the magic thats doing it. I think its just the power - Alusair wasn't much better, and the Paldinson and his Lords were pretty pushy as well. Even Laeral throws people's lives away (but at least she feels a little bad about it). She wipes her tear and says "time to go get my other army".
So like I said, people in those types of positions of power have to make hard decisions, and if torturing some innocent dupe will help save hundreds (or thousands) of lives they are assigned to protect, then thats just the way its done.
I heard some even waterboard.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2012 16:05:48 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 13:49:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Funny that you should bring this up, because I just finished book 2 of the RotAW, and got the same feeling (and the main character even says to Vagerdehast "you are no different then the Shades" (which I think he may have taken as a compliment, because they are portrayed as oh-so-clever and uber-powerful). In fact, all the mages in that series are portrayed as jerks (and idiots... the shades were doing well until book 2.. then they 'caught the stupid'). The literally throw other people's lives away (inlciuding ALL of Tilverton, which at the time had thousands of soldiers from many other realms).
But in their defense, I don't think its the magic thats doing it. I think its just the power - Alusair wasn't much better, and the Paldinson and his Lords were pretty pushy as well. Even Khelben's GF throws people lives away (but at least she feels a little bad about it). She wipes her tear and says "time to go get my other army".
So like I said, people in those types of positions of power have to make hard decisions, and if torturing some innocent dupe will help save hundreds (or thousands) of lives they are assigned to protect, then thats just the way its done.
I heard some even waterboard.
I really don't think the actions of characters in the RotA trilogy should be used as examples of anything, except for bad characterization. Characters in that trilogy do not act as they would in any other Realms material. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 16:39:12
|
You mean the Chosen aren't really the Justice League of morons? 
I was really enjoying the series with the first book, but the second one went WAY downhill. The Shades were interesting until Telemont began behaving like a petulant three-year-old (with the brains to match).
Poor Mr. Denning couldn't even maintain consistency with his own characters beyond one book.
However, it is another (rather blatant) example of the 'good guys' falling back on extreme means to protect those they love/are in charge of. IIRC, Everis Cale wasn't beyond a little torturing himself. It is true of FR (and most other well-written) fiction, as well as real-world. I applaud the Forgotten Realms for not being so 'black & white', but rather, a million shades of grey. Good people do bad things, everyday. Even the comics have addressed this - when the means you employ becomes as bad as those you fight. Take a look at The Watchmen for what is arguably one of the finest examples of this situation.
So in FR, just like in RW (and other good pieces of fiction, including comics), its not about your actions, but rather, your intent that defines whether you are good or evil.
But then again, good & evil are also very subjective. I am sure Adolf Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by the German people. When god-fearing people burn witches at the stake, who is the evil one? Or the Inquisition? Fortunately for FR characters, they do not have to abide by our RW code of ethics and morals - their gods judge them quite differently.
I am getting a little too RW for people's comfort (and my own), but I think the comparison needed to be made - real heroes do NOT always behave well... in fact, in a LOT of situations they behave rather poorly. Elminster is reviled by many (including many he has helped) because he meddles, and he probably has more blood on his hands then Szass Tam and Larloch combined. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2012 16:40:28 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 17:21:46
|
Eh, your RW examples are not really the best out there... There is a difference between what you think might do good for your people and what will really do it.
For example, ''Burn the Witch!'' was clearly the result of religious indoctrination, and while the zealots, bigot people of that time might have been thinking that it was for the best, I'd call them brainwashed for this, rather than good. The Inquisition purpose was not to do good, but just to enforce some pointless dogma made to oppress people.
As for the rest, there is a point where you have to ask yourself if what you want to do is really worth shedding the blood of many people. Personally, I don't like when most of the situations are sorted ruthlessly. Completing the job no matter what the cost should be an approach used only when strictly necessary. If you have more blood on your hands than the ''bad guys'', then something went wrong...
Also, I like when the situation is reversed i.e. when villains have a motivation which are not ''for powah''/rule-destroy the world. It looks hard to do (at least to me), but it would make an interesting story (for example, I like vhaerunites because, even tho they use definitely ''evil'' methods, their main goal is to grant the drow the status they had before the descent, and a life free from the whole idiocy that burdens them, which is something that makes sense). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2012 17:29:23 |
|
|
|
WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 17:33:57
|
| IMO--Having one dimensional good-guy characters is boring. I'm glad that the good guys have grit. A re-booted Forgotten Realms should be more like A Game of Thrones than World of Warcraft. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 14 Jul 2012 17:34:24 |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 19:07:50
|
Sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good however since this philosophic viewpoint, when abused, can be used to justify all sorts of atrocities one must only make those types of ruthless choices as a last resort.
But when there is no choice and you are forced into such a situation then not making the choice simply to avoid blood one your hand is the greater evil. " Gather a million corpses and tell them your ideals meant more then their lives" Depa Billaba , Jedi Master.
As such i feel that you can consider them evil simply based to their harsh actions. |
|
|
|
Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2012 : 21:47:28
|
i would maintain that by using such methods, the war wizards lose the right to enforce any laws in the realm of cormyr. they have no moral authority whatsoever, except they enforce the laws they want to ...using their magic
what makes them any better, than the mage princes that destroyed Elminsters father or the red wizards or even the zhentarium? the only difference is, they have a realm and choose to "rule" it rather than annexing other realms like the others. And who is to say that Cormyr wont do just that at some point in the future... |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 04:54:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
IMO--Having one dimensional good-guy characters is boring. I'm glad that the good guys have grit. A re-booted Forgotten Realms should be more like A Game of Thrones than World of Warcraft.
Meh, if I want Game of Thrones, I'll read those books. I don't want all of fantasy to be the same. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 05:44:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
IMO--Having one dimensional good-guy characters is boring. I'm glad that the good guys have grit. A re-booted Forgotten Realms should be more like A Game of Thrones than World of Warcraft.
Meh, if I want Game of Thrones, I'll read those books. I don't want all of fantasy to be the same.
Agreed.
Besides, taking that kind of approach would likely bring no end to the amount of "comparison" and "this is stealing from that" arguments. And those kinds of discussions often quickly become tiresome. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 06:10:21
|
getting back on the subject..
complex characters are fine
characters that do things that we may regard as questionable...also fine
I dont even mind "good" folks doing bad things in response to something happening, extreme anger, stress, fear, what have you.
but what we had in Elminster's daughter was a well rehearsed, standard operating procedure. Of using magic to compel, question and yes, threaten anyone who the Royal Mage wanted, which was anyone she didnt already trust. It was a case of magical bullying. Even if she wanted to question her about what she knew, and if she was involved. She forced, blackmailed her into becoming an agent rather than sending her back, which she did in fact inform Namra she could do. But she took it upon herself to direct her the way she thought fit.
I dunno, Elminster's treatment of the red wizard didnt bother me, I guess because the red wizard already had shown his true colors and involvement. But his insistence that he did, in fact know better than most everyone else, seems to me the same reasoning/rationale of many of those he thwarted, meddled with or what have you We, the reader, are to assume that he is in fact correct, but I wonder now how many of these arch-magi's and ancient enemies who are out to slay him have good reason (of course, there are many that are evil and he thwarted and just want revenge) but i suspect there are some that have very good reason to want to kill him.
I wonder if we had read books from perspectives of other mages if we would still see elminster as a "good guy". I know I certainly dont think the war wizards or the royal mages are, or have been (although as has been pointed out, Vangey did seem to change somewhat near the end).. |
|
|
|
WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 16:10:03
|
What makes that significantly different from a war of conquest launched by a presumably good ruler? More than mere bullying, it will result in the deaths of hundreds, and disrupt local economies to the point of bringing bystanders to be brink of starvation.
You're looking at the moral context of this event from a micro level, while the characters in question are very macro in their thinking. Gandalf himself was called out on this in LotR.
Just another reason why D&D alignments are a decent moral shorthand, but ultimately unsatisfying in the broader context of real life. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 17:11:04
|
What was it, Spook said something like "For the good of the many at a cost of a few, or the one" before he died repairing engine of the Enterprise.
Wizards do have power and certainly should use it for their goals, At times indeed extreme measures appear needed. Sometimes an act that appears to be good, results in much damage to others. Sometimes an act of Evil, has the end result of a greater good.
A persons book of life should be measured in part by acts and in part by results. I do not subscribe to "the Ends justify the Means" as a total scale to be weighed by, however it might be considered as a factor.
I have had characters backstab which in many ways would be considered an Evil act, even if to safe a life of another. Such an attack lacks honor.
As to the fiction, alas sometimes continuity has been seen as a problem in other series as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 18:26:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
So reading Elminster's Daughter, just slightly past half way through the book. Not really trying to discuss the book, but I want to discuss the manner in which Caladnei treats Narnra...
The manner that wizards treat ANYONE strikes me as extremely bullying. [...] No wonder mages are so hated and revered by so many.
Aye, maybe Mystra meant something with that "Learn from mages, without yourself taking the title or spellhurling habits of a wizard". Then again, as magic-users go, War Wizards are... mmm... not primarily known for being a likeable company. 
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
Caladnei and Lespeera basically signing Narnra's death warrant by forcing her to reveal what she knew about her parentage and then blackmail her into becoming an agent of the crown. And these are the GOOD GUYS?!?
War Wizards as "the good guys" is kind of stretched. But these two count as relatively (compared to old Vangey, obviously) polite and sensible, so... aye, it's like that old gag - "no, this was the Good Cop!" 
Also, later in the book Elminster tried to get a little bit of caution into their hot heads. Before they manage to cheese off a spellfire wielder, insult the Witch Queen when her bloodlust is not satiated by tearing apart a bunch of Red Wizards, or something.
After all, two such fine magic users, that would be a terrible waste, and if it can be avoided... 
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
You expect this sort of behavior from the bad guys, but Elminster seems no better, I suspect that Khelbon would be even worse.
Khelben may be just like a War Wizard in approach. He's very much into "my means are justified by the ends" and easily "finds" some enemies if he's out of real targets, aye. Otherwise he's grimdark, but fair.
Elminster is more into "a-a-and now you learned it the hard way - hey, it's still not nearly the hardest!" and freaking out people, but only needs a good pretext to let off the hook someone who isn't dumb enough to press on (even Harnrim).
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
I've read alot over the years and I have not seen anything so...evil. As far as I am concerned the War Wizards of Cormyr are no better than the Red Wizards, perhaps just a bit less expansionist..
On their territory they play State Security, and feel themselves entitled to be as obnoxious as it's convenient for them, to the point when they may easily outdo it and provoke unnecessary troubles, yeah. War Wizards must be kept in check, just like two other branches of power (nobles and the Crown). And it was a bad time. One major crisis, another, third, plus years of following Vangey - the greatest jerkass around. A little earlier (in Cormyr Saga) Azoun reaches the conclusion: they are getting out of line and it's time to hammer out a little bent in the balance of power.
Then again, it's not like this attitude is never called for. What with dealing with most of Cormyrean nobles most of the time.
Outside of their land, War Wizards don't seem to be aggressive or likely to make a mess like Thayans (at least if they don't see an incoming threat), but of course participate in general expansionism of Cormyr equally. I love that scene in 'All Shadows Fled', heh-heh. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 15 Jul 2012 18:36:48 |
|
|
|
Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 18:28:40
|
| I do not think that War-wizards were ever meant to be "angels". For freaking sake, they shield/support royal system. Royal system in its nutshell is an oppressing systems, which by default makes wizards of war into oppressors. |
|
|
|
Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 18:35:32
|
Stormlord77, re. "i would maintain that by using such methods, the war wizards lose the right to enforce any laws in the realm of cormyr. they have no moral authority whatsoever, except they enforce the laws they want to ...using their magic
what makes them any better, than the mage princes that destroyed Elminsters father or the red wizards or even the zhentarium? the only difference is, they have a realm and choose to "rule" it rather than annexing other realms like the others. And who is to say that Cormyr wont do just that at some point in the future..."
I think that is Ed's entire point. In El's Daughter and the current Elminster trilogy (El Must Die, BuryElDeep, etc.): that power corrupts and that over time even the professed "good" wizards fall into bullying.
I talked to Ed at a convention once about the way the War Wizards and courtiers and guards talked and acted in Cormyr, and he told me that he modeled a lot of it (aside from making it sound more medieval and less modern real-world slang) VERY closely on the way policemen and other authorities had spoken in his hearing.
"Who watches the watchmen?" is a VERY old classical saying, predating the Watchmen comic by centuries. It's a constant theme, good guys getting corrupted by their power/pride/bestowed authority, and if you buy the "Cormyr is the Realms equivalent of King Arthur," that theme goes right along with it.
I KNOW, from talking with Ed, that as readers we're meant to start questioning the "goodness" of the good guys in those books. If you go down to the micro level, remember Caladnei is a (visible) foreigner whom oldblood Cormyreans won't tend to like or heartily support; she's "alone" at Court and feeling it, with everyone waiting for her to show any sign of weakness/incompetence so they can openly defy her (and they're treating Alusair the same way, only far more subtly). Both ladies, Alusair by natural character and Caladnei through necessity, deal with this by being firm, authoritarian, "don't you DARE mess with me" in their dealings (remember they're dealing with defiant nobles who behave far worse, among the nicer nobles), and the result is a slide into habitual bullying. It's become an operating necessity. Strengthened by a growing fear of the Netherese lurking and manipulating, to try to take over Cormyr or drive it down into lawless civil war.
I think what you're seeing in Ed's current trilogy (and, he hinted to me, in books beyond that, not just by him) is that Cormyr is going to run full-tilt into the consequences of that.
So, yes, losing your morals and principles IS going to earn payback.
A lot of readers seem to miss how many-layered Ed's writing is, how he's always exploring something like this (another of his themes: how living far beyond normal lifespan leads to insanity, and the consequences of that) behind the foreground action. Not preaching, but pointing out for thought.
It's one of the reasons I think he's a great writer. And certainly one of the most underrated fantasy writers, these days.
BB
BB
|
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 19:50:38
|
Elminster has been around for over a thousand years. He has a good 1100 years or so more experience in dealing with most humanly matters than pretty much any other living human we know of. He's seen it all played out before, so I'm sure he's somewhat justified in his actions. He's even been quoted multiple times and I know for sure in one of his recent novels, stating that if you live as long as him, there is no such thing as good and evil, only people making choices others deem good or bad and that Vanderghast was finally beginning to see that towards the end.
I'll have to re-read Elminster's Daughter one of these days as it's been a few years, and I wouldn't argue against Caladnei and Lespeera acting so brutal. They have some big shoes to fill at that time and stress and any other factors like many noted above, could cause these supposedly good people to make some flat out bad calls in doing business. Makes them more human and we've all made bad calls before, gods know I have, but it's part of the growing process.
Cormyr's golden age ended with the death of Azoun IV from what I've seen and read. It was a strong kingdom at one time, but it's going to have to weather a stormy road to get them back on track methinks. Personally, the current Cormyr is more interesting to me, warts and all. Plus it gives players a good chance to help clean up that country and build towards its future and get it back on track. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 15 Jul 2012 19:52:34 |
|
|
|
Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 22:53:55
|
again, all valid points, Cormyr is threatened, young, untested regent, mage royal etc etc
i get all that.
its the use of power, specifically magic power. that is upsetting me/rubbing me wrong.
The common man in the realms fears wizards and magic in general, and they SHOULD.
In Elminster must die (which i finished last night) El and Storm talk about just how easy it is to use magic to "ride" someone or take over their body. We see it happening over and over by the protagonist (i wont say in case you haven't read it yet). It is a force that only few understand much less control. And the power that it gives over those without it, well i would imagine that its definitely a case of power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Suddenly Amn's stance of no mages without governmental control makes a whole lot of sense, rather than making them seem ignorant or superstitious. This subject is turning into (TO ME) a case of magic being something that "man is not meant to know". I know i saw a thread reading through the forums about the many disasters caused by magic over the years. One would be foolish not to fear it and perhaps want to destroy it.
Now, all this aside, this may be (per Blueblade) exactly what Greenwood is trying to prove/show. That the mighty need a check to their powers. Perhaps a weakened weave/mystra is a GOOD thing for the realms, of course mystra and elminster would disagree :P.
I know, i probably coming across as Naive or wanting to see things black or white, which isnt exactly true, I love characters like Elaith "the serpent" and Mirt the moneylender...these arent exactly paragon's of virtue, but then they dont pretend to act like one either :p
I understand the need for making tough choices or doing something distasteful for the greater good. But bullying is bullying and magical bullies are just TERRIFYING if you think about it :p |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2012 : 03:37:10
|
"ultimate power corrupts... ultimately".
Also, "With great power comes great responsibility." (damn shame they left that famous line out of the new spiderman movie).
Anyhow, Elminster has been seen bullying lots of folks. In fact, I remember a few occasions where he bullied Vangerdehast. Its called being fed-up with endless stupidity for a 1000+ years and be too old and grumpy to be nice about it.
As for the rest, thats how power works. You think cops aren't bullies? What kind of person wants to walk around armed, with the ability to shoot 'wrong-doers', and basically rub their authority in everyone's faces? being in charge of anything requires a bully mentality - even being president, or running a successful business. You are not going to be in charge of anything for too long if you let others walk all over you. Its just the way it works, since the beginning of time.
When you do it to maintain order in an otherwise chaotic society, then its considered 'good'. If you do it for selfish reasons, then it is 'evil'. What you do does not matter nearly as much as why you do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
What was it, Spook said something like "For the good of the many at a cost of a few, or the one" before he died repairing engine of the Enterprise.
"The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few... or the one."
Pure logic - Spock knew when to be a bully (except it didn't work against those giant, primitive cave-folk). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 16:09:12
|
| Storm, I think you've hit on a valid point. The war wizards do not have moral authority. However, I do not think they strive for it, either. The operative from Serenity would fit in well amongst high level war wizards in most times, I think. Vangerdahast likely did wretched evil things on multiple occassions so that he could allow Azoun IV to be the noble ruler he was and have Cormyr survive. There is a different between "good guys" and protagonists. The only novels where the "good" guys have their hands clean are likely going to be novels about priests of Ilmater. |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 04:42:51
|
i haven't read Elminster's Daughter, so i don't know the specific situations you're referring to. i'm just rambling (a lot).
i think Blueblade's post about Ed's intent is definitely relevant. it's important to question just how good the good guys are.
perspective is also important... i mean who's definition of good are we focused on? elves, as a race, have always been defined as good. generally chaotic, but good. i think that's bogus. i think they regard themselves as lawful-good, other sylvan races regard them as some flavor of good, and everyone else sees them as chaotic-evil. elves act in their own best interests, and if you're not elven or fey then your life is worthless-at-best to an elf. just my take on them.
everyone, in the absence of something forcing them to do otherwise, acts in what they believe to be their own best interest.
philanthropists and volunteers and whoever else that we might look to as "good" in the modern world... they might give to charity, but they do so because it makes them feel better about themselves... and because it reduces their taxes, but the amount of importance that part plays probably varies by individual. the point is that if they didn't feel good as a result, they wouldn't do it.
on the subject of charity, everyone who gives (money, time, whatever) to charity picks which charity/ies to support. does their choice to help buy computers for elementary school classrooms instead of donating to cancer research make them less "good"? i would argue that they might seem less good, to me, if someone i love is dying of cancer. they're still giving, and that's something we regard as good... even though they're doing it for their own reasons, which is a pretty gray area in my opinion. is it good *just* because the result is good, even if the motive behind it is selfish? eh.
relevance to the war wizards: just like everyone else, they do what they believe to be best for their interests. those who believe in the crown support the crown because of that. those who believe that Cormyr, while not perfect, is the most ideal flavor of civilization currently known in Faerun (which most of them must, because otherwise they would just move to the better place) support the crown because they want to lend their strength to civilization... perhaps even if they dream of another family some day coming to power. and i'm sure there's more than one war wizard who is a war wizard simply to protect the common folk from orcs and brigands, and from treasonous rebels like Salember and Gondegal.
wizards (and priests) who have the magical power to compel people to certain actions... will do so, and they don't need to see it as an evil act. i don't remember the exact quote, but someone once said something to the effect that "those who have the ability to act have the responsibility to act." those with power have the responsibility to use that power wisely... their actions may not always appear benevolent to all observers, or in comparison to the ways of other rulers, or in the short term.
a "good" ruler needs to see their actions as being for the ultimate good of the realm, in order to remain "good" in conscience. it can look evil to everyone else, and sometimes thrones are lost in moments like that... but just because someone (or a lot of someones) thinks it looks evil doesn't make it so. action is good if it's vindicated some day.
i'm no expert on Cormyr, but if I ran a game there, the feeling among the common folk would be that the Obarskyrs still hold the throne because the vast majority of their actions have been vindicated eventually. some things don't sound good in the moment, and some things aren't good for some folks, but taking the 1300-year-long-view most things have been good for most folks... imo, that's how the commoner in Cormyr should define a good family. the opinions/definitions of nobles, tainted with greed and lacking the weight of the crown, are too subjective to even matter. i'd pay closer attention to the thoughts of a bar wench than the indolent son of a noble, even of a family that's been around since the beginning. and maybe that was Azoun's thinking too, since he put so much effort into keeping an inconspicuous ear trained on the common folk. and, well yes, it does help if she's cute.
PCs attempt to influence (there are many uglier synonyms) NPCs to do their bidding every day, and they don't see themselves as evil for it. if that sort of thing is defined as evil, then paladin is no longer a PC class.
but a lot of that is convenience: if the end result of the manipulation is good, then we call the action good regardless of the motive behind it. if the intention was good, then we call the action good regardless of the outcome; a bad outcome is simply an unfortunate twist, or the work of Beshaba i guess.
there is no objective good. nobody does anything without any selfish motive.
that implies that there's no objective evil either, but that's a slimier can of worms. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 05:42:02
|
| makes you wonder why nobody can define what makes a lawful or good act when it comes down to LG paladins and the 3.x, pathefinder and 2e paladin condes.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 05:51:49
|
Thats why I do agree with people who say Lawful Good=Lawful Stupid, sometimes the choice versus the need to do good can cause more harm than just turning a blind eye.
My take on the wizards who do things because they can, but its more of a personal choice rather than a need to do it, not all mages are self serving but it all depends on your on choices and the consequences that come with it. Its like having a lot of money. It never changes who you are, it simply magnifies your personality... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 06:45:35
|
I just finished re-watching all the episodes of Avatar: The Last Airbender, and my opinion about the OP is a bit tainted by it.
In an ideal world, one would strive to do what's right without sullying one's "soul." [Aang stopped the Firelord without killing him.] However, it's not always the case that we're presented with good options. [Lucky for Aang he met the Lion Turtle which taught him energy-bending.] Sometimes, all our options tend to be...evil, no matter where we look; no matter whom we seek for help. And so of these options, we have to choose the least evil. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 12:10:41
|
After reading this I can't say being a "bully" with magic is the same as being a "bully" without magic. At least with magic you aren't actually threatening personal bodily harm and can avoid it altogether.
That being said, Is it ethical? No. Moral? No again. Evil? Depends on the use and intention. Magic, just like anything, when used, is not good or evil. It is by which manner it is employed by the caster's intentions that makes something right or wrong.
To me, your example is a grey area. I think they were desperate from what I can gleam from your example, since I have never read the book, but I'm sure they could have figured out another way had they had the perfect circumstances, which no one ever truly has.
That said, I've had tons of wizards I've played, all of various powers and personalities, and not all of good alignment. That said, my best wizard never has had to restort to bullying, but then again he could manipulate everyone passively by catching upon their ambitions and agendas and use that to his advantage. And since 90% of people are usually fueled by greed *drops a bag of coins in their lap* problem solved! |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
Edited by - Abenabin Gimblescrew on 19 Jul 2012 12:12:16 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 13:26:25
|
| Agree with you Abenabin. Its not about power being good or evil, its about who uses it and the way they use it that defines them... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 17:13:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower
For freaking sake, they shield/support royal system. Royal system in its nutshell is an oppressing systems, which by default makes wizards of war into oppressors.
Yay! All power to the Guilds!
(aside) Lord Hhune, as to your concerns about dealing with the ex-allies less than loyal to the cause of Tethyrean Revolution, here's a little present from our friends in Harmonium: schematics of a gnomish mechanism with two blades. It was proven to be easy to build and have a fairly good performance... 
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
Suddenly Amn's stance of no mages without governmental control makes a whole lot of sense,
This idea, uh, differs from Cormyrean reality how much?..
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, "With great power comes great responsibility." (damn shame they left that famous line out of the new spiderman movie).
That's because there's no such thing as Lawful Evil, you see... either.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
perspective is also important... i mean who's definition of good are we focused on? elves, as a race, have always been defined as good. generally chaotic, but good. i think that's bogus. i think they regard themselves as lawful-good, other sylvan races regard them as some flavor of good, and everyone else sees them as chaotic-evil.
May well be, but what it changes?
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
everyone, in the absence of something forcing them to do otherwise, acts in what they believe to be their own best interest.
[...]
those who believe that Cormyr, while not perfect, is the most ideal flavor of civilization currently known in Faerun (which most of them must, because otherwise they would just move to the better place)
[...]
but a lot of that is convenience: if the end result of the manipulation is good, then we call the action good regardless of the motive behind it. if the intention was good, then we call the action good regardless of the outcome; a bad outcome is simply an unfortunate twist, or the work of Beshaba i guess.
there is no objective good. nobody does anything without any selfish motive.
The "objective" is always a problem.
The rest is based on a lot of assumptions about motivations. A much simpler approach is the exact opposite: whatever character's motivations are (including someone willing to be a martyr or whatever) constitues one's own envisioned goal. Otherwise you'd have to define "interest" separately, inevitably ending up with terms in which a lot of characters to whom it's applied won't think, and that would be really bogus.
This, of course, means that since others usually are neither able nor even willing to look into someone's motivations, these aren't necessarily connected to just about anything else external to the character other than through acting on said motivations, and sometimes not even then.
Yes, one may get known as a great villain or hero for something done by pure accident or for unforeseen consequences of an unrelated act - so? It happens anyway. "The greatest triumph proves the greatest blunder", etc. 
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
makes you wonder why nobody can define what makes a lawful or good act when it comes down to LG paladins
It's very easy to define, and almost everybody can do it. Now, a definition which everyone else would like - that's impossible. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 01:49:08
|
| easy enough only to teh individual...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Elminster's Daughter- The way mages treat folks
