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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 21:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
The Current Clack was always one of the first things I perused in older sourcebooks. I love chronologies. I think in terms of timelines with all my entertainment, both fiction/fantasy and nonfiction. It's hardwired into my brain.
Gods, yes. I loved the Current Clack, and any gaming material I buy that has a timeline, I read that first.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 02:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
The Current Clack was always one of the first things I perused in older sourcebooks. I love chronologies. I think in terms of timelines with all my entertainment, both fiction/fantasy and nonfiction. It's hardwired into my brain.
The "Current Clack" has long been something I've hoped that Wizards would take up on their website -- maybe as part of the DDI, providing regularly weekly updates for events in the Realms.
We've tinkered with the idea of attempting such here at Candlekeep. And a few scribes have even put forth their own workings on a "Current Clack" for Candlekeep. But we have yet to reach any particular consensus on how the community should approach this, and the shifting of the timeline, as per 4e, only makes this discussion potentially more volatile. |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 04:13:33
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That phrase, right there, is where, i think, we take complete opposite sides.
I want a sourcebook to give me a portrait of the world or more precisely, some part of the world, as it is now. Now being the date they chose to stop the timeline. In that sourcebook, i want to know as much as possible about the past, the present, the layout of the land. Whatever they can put in such a book. They can even come up later with another sourcebook covering in more details a smaller part of a region already covered in an earlier book. But never go beyond the agreed upon date where the timeline stops.
To me, there is so much information to write about even if the date is fixed, it's mind boggling.Every sourcebook that is coming out gives you information about something new OR more detailed information about something already covered. A new kingdom, a new city, a new dungeon, a new continent!
I think that in a sense, the realms has been more static with the concept they chose. They always cover the same regions of Toril because time passes. Novels are being written and every edition of the game justifies the decision to rewrite and change the world over again. In the new setting, all they do is come back the same places and explain what this or that novel has done in game terms.
Now THAT's a static world! They've been giving us Waterdeep and Cormyr for the last 30 years. I think it's time to move on and let the DMs decide what's happening in the world. I say give me Waterdeep once, or more than once with more and more details in each book. But never go beyond that fixed date.
As for novels ... Great, bring them on! I love reading about the realms. Put them in the future and reinvent the realms but don't give me a new sourcebook and incorporate that in the timeline of the game.
Let's go back to the Grey Box a minute, more than 30 years ago. Using the tapestry of a world that was presented to us so splendidly by Ed. I, for one, think that we could still be reading new information about the realms, even if they hadn't moved the timeline one minute into the future. More than that, we would have great details about Anchorome and more about Maztica and other continents and civilizations we've never seen yet. How great would that be? Not possible with an advancing timeline.
Modules? Please give me more! I'll buy them, use them and play with them. But i'll decide how and when it's inserted in my realm. There're just scenarios and will exist only when and if i decide to use them. Why would they have to be dated? Just make sure that the modules are not about things that are part of the history of the world before the fixed date. Who cares if it's dated? What is so hard about deciding ourselves when those events happen? They never happened before right?
Respectfully,
Pat
quote:
What I want is for every sourcebook I buy to give me something new and to remind me that the Realms is a world where things change and where time marches on.
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Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 05:02:36
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well my 2 coppers
I don't think TSR or WotC ever sat back and said "we need RSE's and massive Time Changing events and time skips in the Forgotten Realms"
I think they made money making decisions to make a new edition of rules (well at least until this last iteration that was epic fail in rules and realms)
whether they needed a new ruleset or not wasn't the point, the point was that "new rulesets are the money makers and so we must make new ones ever 4-5 years"
when they decided to do that, they had to Shade Most High or Time o Trouble or Sellplague or whatever TO MAKE THE REALMS FIT THE NEW RULES
so THE KEY is to freeze THE RULESET, not the timeline if you want to stay away from what inspired the OP
but as we all know WotC will release 6ed before 2020, so any wishing on our parts for Realms stability from WotC is silly
WE are the stability of the Realms not the company |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 05:06:53
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what about how Pathfinder is dealing with dates
seems seamless to me between novels and their other products
the dates are there (barely) but they are not in your face, and the novels are very localized in scope, it's excellent |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 09:50:31
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Hmm my two pence, I wish they didn't reboot the realms so much instead advanced the time directly in correlation with our world ie if it was 3 years since the last big update campaign setting book. They should get what has happen in all canon novels and sources and put in the time line after a review process with fan/customers review.
I used to play in the realms did countless adventures we killed drizzt, slept with the seven sisters, started a war with thay, visited larloch etc. Main thing it happen in our realms and crazy poop happened in our realms. Faerun started with Ed and the knights, it wasn't a tsr baby they bought that baby, there was enough weight in the realms Ed could have been the terry prattchet of the genre or the jk rolling with several books and movies made for their creation. To be honest while I am happy for everything I am sad that he doesnt have the ownership of the rights to it as I know he could do a much better job at heading the setting then anyone else.... It was his creation.
What I am getting to is that I have dropped the idea of playing in the realms, for me all started with 3ed from the reboot but most annoying the several edition updates since then. I know the source books are still good and I could just disregard the new edition/ruleset but when you have invested hundrands of pounds on material and now you have or feel the need to go and buy all of it again for many reasons I won't go into it ...... I had enough.
I want to create my own setting, I am, and hopefully one day if it is worthy I can be a jk rolling or even terry/ed and have my setting published in some form.
But doesn't say I don't appreciate what has happen or what is being done to the realms... It is still my favourite setting.
Mod edit: Language, please.  |
Purple you say?!
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jul 2012 15:01:37 |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 11:40:54
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| So 3 years in real life is 3 years in the realms makes it a lot more manageable and they can curate the content better as it will be more focused. |
Purple you say?!
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 18:53:40
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| Xaeryrudd, what are some events that have occurred in your campaign in 1381 DR? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 01:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Xaeryrudd, what are some events that have occurred in your campaign in 1381 DR?
This is perhaps more (or less) than you were looking for, but you asked. 
Background
The campaign I'm working on now starts in 1365 DR, in Mulhorand where it's 3500 MC. The Time of Troubles didn't happen, and the return of Shade and the Spellplague won't happen. I'm using 3.5 rules and the 1e/2e FR maps. I've expanded the original Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons to 18 God-Kings each, although many of those perished in the Orcgate Wars or in the centuries since; the point is just that there are a few more of them in my game than appear in the official Realms. Although the Time of Troubles didn't happen in this campaign, Tiamat's defeat of Gilgeam did. Gilgeam had previously slain or exiled all of the other remaining Untheric God-Kings, so Tiamat (and Hoar, but he doesn't count) is all that's left of the Untheric pantheon, making her the goddess of absolutely everything as far as the people of Unther are concerned.
I don't yet have a plan for 1385 DR, and I'm not desperate to get one. The official Realms places the Spellplague here, and I will not be using that. My answer to the question of "well, what are you going to do then" is that not every entry on the Roll refers to a major Realms-wide event. The official Realms picks this year to make a big one; I will pick others. Blue fire could refer to a lot of different things, and if I get a cool idea I'll probably use it, but if not it's no big deal.
This campaign has three parts, each spanning a few decades, and separated by several centuries. From beginning to end, about 1000 years will elapse during the campaign. Each of the three parts will see PCs advancing from level 1 to probably 30 or so. So there will be a succession of characters, with followers etc. By the end of each part, the PCs will essentially be generals at the head of armies.
I'm planning to mess with perspective a bit… the players should see all sides of the conflict. For example, in one adventure they defend a citadel, playing any rank from civilians to commanders, issuing and following and defying orders as they see fit to best accomplish their ultimate objective: the slaughter of the disgusting invaders. Then, immediately or soon after that, they're fighting their way into a sarrukh stronghold… with a different floorplan, but just enough similarity that they realize that they were playing as their foes last week. I want to give them the chance to play as phaerimm, dragons, and other monsters that aren't typically considered PC races …without necessarily ever saying "hokay, you're all playing as hissing snakes this week, go eat some humans" …and with appropriate challenges of course, so there will be a place, near the end of each chapter, for CR 40 encounters due to the high levels the campaign will reach.
Part 1
I haven't mapped out exactly which years each event takes place in, yet. Part 1, tentatively titled First Blood, is going, so far, from 1365 until about 1420 or so, so by 1381 the party will be about 30% through the first chapter. Up until now, their most obvious recurring foe has been the cult of Set, but they will have recently become aware of a cult calling itself the Ankh of Dasanaru.
Dasanaru is a powerful fiend, made up for this campaign; an advanced ultroloth probably… I haven't decided yet because his precise stats aren't important; the PCs will never face him directly. In this campaign's version of history, Dasanaru was the last emperor of Imaskar, and like many powerful figures there was a cult devoted to the idea that he was a god. The events of the cataclysm (circa -2500 DR) which shattered the imperial kingdom of Raurin banished Dasanaru from the Realms until certain conditions were met. A few of his cultists were concealed among the followers of those who would become the God-Kings, and thus survived the cataclysm. (Note: the God-Kings were once mortal adventurers in this campaign; they battled and supplanted various deities and acquired divine power, but remained in the Realms rather than creating extraplanar homes. They're like demipowers, but they're not full-fledged powers, and they're not directly subject to Ao or any other power.) Rather than dissolve Dasanaru's following, his surviving cultists strove to preserve it. Some time soon after the founding of Mulhorand, they quietly began spreading rumors of prophesies foretelling their lord's return during the 22nd year of the 22nd reign of Mulhorand. It's impossible to know the how and why of Fate's hand, but more than 3000 years later in 1373 DR, the cultists of Dasanaru finally achieved one of their long-time goals: the opening of the vault in which an ancient neh-thalggu was sealed. It was said (again in prophesies spread by the early cultists) that this creature would be the key to resurrecting the rule of Dasanaru in Faerûn. The cultists who opened the vault were of course consumed, but the neh-thalggu emerged, wrought havoc in Semphar for a few weeks, and then vanished… presumably into the Raurin. The PCs are called to deal with this beast (way beyond their ability) but it's gone by the time they get there. Instead, they get recruited to help rebuild Semphar, which keeps them busy through the end of the year.
As 1374 DR dawns, the skies over the Raurin turn blood-red. Massive thunderstorms rock eastern and southern Faerûn. Great black clouds roll out of the desert, unleashing sheets of red lightning over lands from Kara Tur to the Lake of Steam. The entire city of Dhaztanar, capital of Semphar and often called the Waterdeep of the east, is vaporized in lightning strikes. All that's left is a glassy plain of melted sand. Up to 50% of the citizens of other cities in the vicinity of the desert are cooked by near-strikes, or die of ruptured organs. Hundreds of buildings collapse or are left structurally unfit for habitation. In Mulhorand and Unther, there are no lightning strikes, but many report seeing spectacular explosions of light and heat in the sky as great red bolts streaked toward them and then… it was like they struck an invisible shield. Some claim to have seen the manifestations of Thoth and Nephthys, flying above Skuld and Neldorild and working magic. Across the south, the cult of Dasanaru is elated, and indulges in a bloodbath of assassinations before disappearing into the desert to greet their returned master. 1374, the Year of Lightning Storms, is something like the 17th year of the 22nd Pharaoh's reign, so the prophecy's numbers were a little off, but too close to be dismissed as complete coincidence… in the minds of the cultists at least.
All of that means that it's likely the PCs will be facing the cult of Dasanaru in 1381… along with their (both the PCs' and the cultists') erstwhile allies, the cults of Set and …other God-Kings who may be unique to this campaign. While seeking more reliable support, the PCs will hear about and hopefully seek out the Lleidrrhath, who probably won't be equipped to help much against Dasanaru but may play a role in the salvation of Mulhorand later.
Banishing Dasanaru (or even insulting him and living to tell about it) is beyond the PCs' ability at this point, but they do manage to deal some setbacks to his cult. In order to reach the Lleidrrhath, they're going to have to clear out the tunnels leading down to them, which can only be reached from the necropolis of Zindalankh, and before they can clear out the undead they'll have to deal with the master, who goes by "Shadowlord" but is actually named Arkhnangauthseiyr and looks a whole lot like a phaerimm with a ridiculous number of spells and the ability to cast two of them at once, while also wielding wands and remotely invoking other defensive and offensive items. Fighting him is a fatal choice, so they'll negotiate, and in the course of running around performing favors for him, they're going to begin seeing undeniable clues of the main nemesis of the campaign: the sarrukh.
This brings us to the Year of the Blackened Moon (1406 DR) when spellcasters all over Faerûn suffer strange maladies and periodic crippling severance from the Weave. (Unlike the Spellplague, this doesn't have physical effects on the land; it's more like "moon madness" which generally only affects casters) Speaking of madness, the pathological priests of House Karanok seize power across most of Chessenta. The Nemiryth family of lycanthropes ushers a new aristocracy (werejaguars are now cool) into Murghôm and Semphar. Finally, the last remnant of ancient Unther falls into history as the armies of Mulhorand take control of Messemprar.
The end of Part 1 sees the PCs (somewhere around 1420 DR) defend Mulhorand (including what was previously known as Unther) against an invasion of surprising strength and organization, led by seemingly omnipotent spellcasters. If the PCs have been successful in their efforts up until now, they will have enlisted the aid of drow, giants, dragons, and other creatures even less inclined to help humans (such as the phaerimm) and will now coordinate all of these allies into a force with which they will preserve the independence of Mulhorand… though the realm is reduced to a collection of shielded cities linked by portals. Outside the walls, naga and yuan-ti roam the jungle which is growing to overshadow what were once the fields and plains of the Old Empires.
The PCs are hailed as heroes on par with the God-Kings themselves, but this honor pales in light of the realization that the armies they defeated were merely a regiment in a much larger force. Other lands, lacking heroes of the PCs' caliber and unaware of the events the PCs rightly saw as harbingers, were ill-equipped to defend themselves. Most of the rest of Faerûn has been overwhelmed, and the oppressors will regroup and rebuild their armies. That means the PCs didn't win the war... it was merely "first blood" and the battles may only end with the eventual death of the PCs, the fall of the God-Kings, and the enslavement of all humanoid races.
So… that's a bit of a downer.
The good news is that there's a Part 2 and a Part 3, in which they will have the opportunity to retake the Realms for the nonreptilian races. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 11:19:53
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| The timeline did advance too quickly IMO, imagine how many useful details we would get if the timeline advanced 3 months for 1 Earth's year. There would be a lot less RSEs for sure. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 19:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrakis
I think that in a sense, the realms has been more static with the concept they chose. They always cover the same regions of Toril because time passes. Novels are being written and every edition of the game justifies the decision to rewrite and change the world over again. In the new setting, all they do is come back the same places and explain what this or that novel has done in game terms.
Yes. If each new sourcebook has to repeat the essential overview and then cover changed and replaced elements, it's left with little space to provide depth. When you zoom in like this from the overview to the level of the Volo's Guides and the FOR series, you find that the Realms is not simply how you'd supposed it, or how a typical DM would improvise it; it's better and richer, and much of its distinctiveness and life appears at this level. This is why I respect DMs who prefer to improvise from a minimal published summary but don't accept that it's a superior approach.
And when sourcebooks are like that, customers start expecting they'll be rehashes, whereas we know that the already existing lore on each of the Heartlands nations/regions could easily fill several such books.
Timeline advancement that invalidates already developed setting detail before it's even published is categorically too fast. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 23:55:23
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My premise is that any advancement overwrites previous lore, by definition. Slower overwrites is a better situation than faster overwrites, but no overwrites at all is even better.
I'm not against advancement. I like seeing the past and future at least as much as everyone else does. I want there to be a past, and a future.
I'm against requiring advancement. I'm against publishing it as a fact rather than a possibility, thus cutting out all other possibilities to present one singular reality, warped from the previous reality, for all XYZ of us. Publishing it means the foundation on which all our campaigns are based has been changed. Patched. Or in 4e's case, jackhammered and sold as angel food cake.
I want to see a Realms setting that presents the whole world. I'll settle for significantly more than we've seen so far.
I want to see a set of product lines that illuminates the past, as well as outlining the present.
I want to see other game products, including novels and DDI, used to develop the future of the entire world... or at least what we're shown of it.
Thus, we continue to have a future, while also getting more of a present upon which to build that future. The big change I'm proposing is really just creating more of a market for novels and DDI material.
Well, that, and a shift in paradigm from 4e's "let's see how we can muck things up" to something more like "let's see how much we can expand the Realms."
I don't see a downside for any DM or player, past/present/future. More Realms, more places to go, more stories. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 20 Jul 2012 23:56:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 00:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I don't see a downside for any DM or player, past/present/future. More Realms, more places to go, more stories.
How are there more stories to tell when you've locked the setting to a specific date and thus time is not moving forward to allow for those stories?
Dragonlance did exactly what you proposed, at least for a while, many years back -- they didn't move forward at all, and only explored the present or the past. And it's because they did that that I dropped the setting and I'm now a Realms fan. And sometime after this, they decided it was time to move forward again, and made a lot more products. |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 04:12:29
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| I think it was said in many post that writing novels in the future is not a bad thing. I like them myself. I just don't want to see these changes in the gaming material. Keep them in the novel world. |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 18:20:09
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| We are going round in circles there wont be any consensus other then at least that needs to progress the question is by how much and 100 years was stupid IMO. |
Purple you say?!
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2012 : 01:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How are there more stories to tell when you've locked the setting to a specific date and thus time is not moving forward to allow for those stories?
I'm not suggesting locking the setting to a specific date. I'm suggesting locking the main continental line sourcebooks to a specific date, which enables describing the whole world rather than remaining stuck in the same little cul-de-sac we've been in since the release of 2e. In no way are these sourcebooks the only way of developing the setting, however. There are novels, DDI articles, potentially adventures, and the Portholes sourcebook line with which to move forward. There is still a future, with my suggestions. The difference is that there's more of a present in addition, and that's why there will be more room for novels... because more places are being described. The rest of the continent that Maztica is on, with all the cultures located there. The other (two large and several small) continents about which we know nothing after 30 years because we've seen four versions of the Heartlands. Additionally, we now have the entire planet of Abeir to talk about too. I would take nothing away from the future of the Realms... I would merely shift things around in a rational way so that we can break out of the cycle we've been stuck in up until now.
quote:
Originally posted by Patrakis
I think it was said in many post that writing novels in the future is not a bad thing.
Right. Novels should move into the future. In fact, I would set the task of scripting the future of the Realms squarely on the novel department's shoulders. Open the floodgates, and let the authors do what they do best.
quote:
Originally posted by Portella
100 years was stupid IMO.
Agreed, the 100 year jump was... unfortunate. The bizarre thing is that, in my opinion, the only way to move directly forward in the Realms, if they decide not to rewind to 1357 (or further), will be to make another big jump... because there's no way old fans are coming back if the Spellplague isn't erased, and the only way to effectively get rid of it without rewinding is to fast-forward so far that its effects have "worn off" - i.e., no flying earth motes, no scars, we have a decent pantheon again, etc. Getting rid of the Spellplague would alienate some/many 4e fans, and not getting rid of it will finally abandon the old gamers to other game systems. Which suggests that moving forward, with a unified timeline, is a bad idea. The solution is to either move backwards, or split up the timeline - "support multiple eras" is the new phrase, I guess.
I think supporting multiple specific eras is still like walking through a minefield (it's important to pick the eras carefully) and it's a logistical nightmare. If the beancounters are unsatisfied with the profit margin in producing products for one era, how is anyone going to justify supporting three or more? The easy answer is: one-third or fewer products for each of those eras. Which will make precisely nobody happy. That's my problem with multiple eras... it only works if WotC suddenly has 3x (or 5x, or whatever) as much money... which it doesn't. I'm guessing their budget is actually smaller than it was a few years ago, since (presumably) they've been producing less revenue.
This is all getting into way too much speculation and the truth isn't available to any of us.
My solution (as summed up by someone earlier in this thread) is to go beyond the idea of multiple eras, to infinite eras. Rather than commit to specific years like 1335 (23 yrs before the ToT), 1360 (25 yrs til the Spellplague), and 1480... instead have one line of sourcebooks, which finishes the job began in 1987, and another line of sourcebooks that looks at various places all over the timeline (each of which is a mini-setting on its own), and a zillion novels filling in the gaps in the past and also rolling into the future. Updating and expanding all this, we have DDI articles... so many articles that no grognard can utter the phrase "totally not worth the subscription fee" with a straight face. So many novels that we don't have time to read them all. Sourcebooks... well, we need a bunch of those too but they need to go way beyond what we've already seen.
There's no excuse for ever running out of things to write about. There's also no excuse for writing more sourcebooks about the dalelands (beyond the one 5e book that will need to be done for the sake of a complete tour of Toril). Novels, sure. DDI articles, definitely. Even adventures.
It's (past) time to see the rest of the Realms. |
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Thoughts (and objections) on stopping the timeline
