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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 05:45:06
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I recently looked over the Immanence epic destiny flavor text which notes that the Immanence 'leapfrogs' divinity and perceives his oneness with the cosmos. For discussion purposes, I'll refer to that as the ascended Immanence. I also recognize that the sources I reference are not consistent with each other, particularly as the writeups about Ao come long before the Immanence concept was conceived for 4e.
I wonder, is the ascended immanence greater/more powered than our friendly neighborhood overgod? Is Ao a part of the Immanence like the pantheon and primordials are?
2e Faiths and Avatars suggests that Ao is outside of the the Realms' cosmos, which may imply he's not part of the cosmic energy field of the ascended Immanence.
On the otherhand, it is suggested that Ao is a divine being. As mentioned above, the ascended Immanence 'leapfrogs' divinity. In addition, Waterdeep (Time of Troubles) wrote at the end that Ao merged his energy with his luminous master, thus implying that Ao and potentially his boss may be composed of energy. Energy is what the ascended Immanence allows himself to become.
So what do you think? Is an ascended Immanence greater than Ao? Is Ao simply part of the cosmic energy field the ascended Immanence merges with? Is Ao outside of the cosmic energy field?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:58:26
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| Since Ao can wipe the gods out of existence, and since the gods can control the very nature of reality in Realmspace, I'd say that puts Ao at the top, far above anything else that can come along. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 17:52:57
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Having not read the Epic Destiny for myself, it's hard to say.
However, it really doesn't matter what Ao is; what matters is what you think is most important for your campaign.
For me, I'd say an Ascended Eminence becomes like unto a colleague of Ao's. He' greets the character and says "welcome, let me introduce you to my master, for he has a new reality he wishes you to watch over." |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 18:57:13
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Thanks for the replies. I'm interested in the ideas conceptually, rather than as part of a campaign. The Immanence epic destiny is in the Arcane Power supplement.
To clarify, the Immanence epic destiny involves the arcane character perceiving that all things are energy and that energy can be manipulated. The epilogue has the arcane character discover that all things in the cosmos are actually part of one energy field, including the deities and primordials, and that all energy is part of him. The Immanence sheds the mortal coil and is one with everything, surpassing deities and primordials as they are just part of the one energy field. The Immanence becomes omnipresent (and is inferentially one with all things in the cosmos). To address WoolyRupert's point, deities and primordials are part of the one energy field which is the Immanence.
It is firmly established that the Immanence is higher up the food chain than deities.
But conceptually, would the Immanence higher up the food chain than the overgods?
To address Jeremy Grenemyer's point,the Immanece is not necessarily an overgod (the Immanence bypasses divinity). He essentailly becomes his multiverse. I think that conceptually contradicts him being slated to become an overgod for another mutliverse, the Immanence is firmly rooted as his own.
I tried to put a slightly more coherent take below.
Support for Ao > Immanence
1)F&A notes that Ao observes from outside the cosmos, so he may be separate from the Immanence who is his cosmos.
Support for Immanence > Ao
The Immanence's flavor text states he surpasses deities and primordials (as they are part of the one energy field). Ao to my knowledge is still considered a deity. It should be noted that Prince of Lies references weird beings greater than Ao.Those may not be extracosmic, and an inference can be drawn that they too would be part of the Immanence.
Waterdeep references the merging of energies of Ao and his luminous master. If Ao and his superior is part of the one energy field, they would both be part of the Immanence.
The Immanence becomes his cosmos (or realizes it is part of him). On the other hand, Ao is confined to watching the Realms, a part of the cosmos and it is unclear what actions, if any, he can take against beings that have no connections with the Realms.
The flavor text also doesn't definitively say that that the Immanence is limited only to his cosmos, only that one energy exists and that the cosmos is made up of that energy field. That may leave open the idea of an Immanence also being extra-cosmic.
EDIT: _________________________________________
It occurs to me that the above can be framed differently. Is Ao a part of the Immanence, or separate? It can even be argued that the Luminous Being that Ao merges with is an Immanence (instead of a reference to the dungeon master).
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Edited by - Veritas on 15 Apr 2012 23:35:56 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 01:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since Ao can wipe the gods out of existence, and since the gods can control the very nature of reality in Realmspace, I'd say that puts Ao at the top, far above anything else that can come along.
Indeed. Ao has demonstrated the "ability" [though, I'm not sure how applicable that label is for a creator god] to "rewrite" the entire celestial pantheon if and when necessary -- simply as a whim. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 10:15:01
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| Given that its flavor is for the core PoL, I'm not sure why it would even apply for FR lore. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 12:21:34
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The Immanence ED is not exclusive to any setting. The recent Abyssal Plague crossover establishes a link between settings.
The above notwithstanding, for the sake of discussion here, lets assume that the Immanence ED can and does apply to FR. |
Edited by - Veritas on 17 Apr 2012 00:40:38 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 16:21:52
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Honestly, to me it doesn't really sound like you're becoming an overgod. If you are realising that you are the cosmos and the cosmos is you, then there is no differentiation. But at the same time, what desire would there be to change anything? It's the equivalent of putting down the dice and walking away from the table, because you ultimately know that it is meaningless. Everything exists simply as a part of you.
In any case, Ao exists outside of the Realms multiverse, and can change its entire structure at a whim. Even if this hypothetical character was the multiverse, Ao would still be changing him at a whim. You are the tablecloth (cosmos) that ripples and undulates as the threads (energy) move, and Ao is the guy twisting it up and knotting it as he pleases. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 18:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since Ao can wipe the gods out of existence, and since the gods can control the very nature of reality in Realmspace, I'd say that puts Ao at the top, far above anything else that can come along.
Indeed. Ao has demonstrated the "ability" [though, I'm not sure how applicable that label is for a creator god] to "rewrite" the entire celestial pantheon if and when necessary -- simply as a whim.
I would have loved for this to be the path the Realms went with the Spellplague; that it was a reality allowed by AO's sweeping change (etc...) |
Edited by - Matt James on 16 Apr 2012 18:53:50 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 22:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I would have loved for this to be the path the Realms went with the Spellplague; that it was a reality allowed by AO's sweeping change (etc...)
Past tense? Couldn't this still be so when it is determined what happens with the 5e Realms? |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 01:14:48
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First, I'd like to thank everyone who ahs participated so far. I've been enjoying working out my take on new concepts as applied to old and established settings. I'd argue that the Immanence in a sense is an actualization of the Sign of One faction concept from Planescape.
If I may be so bold, where and when did Ao rewrite the Pantheon? Sure 4E streamlined the Pantheon. I wasn't particularly pleased by that. However, where does it state that Ao did that?
Returning to the topic, despite the title, I'm not asking who will win in a fight (Ao vs. Immanence cosmic death match!). No. The better frame would be whose will is victorious. As Eldacar mentions in a previous post (quoted below), the Immanence could be the fabric while Ao is tying the knots. Through that interpretation Ao is greater because he can impose his will over the Immanence. My evolving take on it is that the Immanence may include Ao as a finger is included in your hand. It may move seemingly independently but generally it is a piece of your body. The Luminous Being boss of Ao may be the Immanence.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Ao trumps everything in Realmspace, always, by it's very nature and definition, in terms of "rankings" and "power" and whatever else.
Possibly, although there is that comment in Prince of Lies acknowledging beings more powerful than Ao. With the new epic destinies, Ao is not necessarily absolute. By way of comparison, an ascended Parable epic destiny would trump Ao (and everything else) as that character essentially becomes the Game Master upon realizing he exists in a game.
Edit: It also occurs to me that Myrkul thought he might be able to challenge Ao if he could absorb the souls from his realm and the fugue plain. He could have been horrifically wrong on that account, but if there was even an inkling of that being possible, how much stronger would an Immanence be since it encompasses the entire multiverse and everything (including gods, souls, and primordials) in it.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Honestly, to me it doesn't really sound like you're becoming an overgod. If you are realising that you are the cosmos and the cosmos is you, then there is no differentiation. But at the same time, what desire would there be to change anything? It's the equivalent of putting down the dice and walking away from the table, because you ultimately know that it is meaningless. Everything exists simply as a part of you.
I agree with you that the Immanence isn't an overgod. The flavor text indicates its passed the state of divinity. Whether an Overgod is considered a divinity is one hair to split. To address the sloth point you mentioend, hust because one recognizes they are dreaming doesn't mean they can't enjoy the illusion. Daydreaming for example. Ao can be charged with the same problem you ascribe to with the Immanence as you address below.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Ao exists outside of the Realms multiverse, and can change its entire structure at a whim. Even if this hypothetical character was the multiverse, Ao would still be changing him at a whim. You are the tablecloth (cosmos) that ripples and undulates as the threads (energy) move, and Ao is the guy twisting it up and knotting it as he pleases.
If Ao is capable of ordering everything to his whim at every moment, then he has no reason to intervene. The Immanence is also capable of manipulating energies. Perhaps the cosmos was not sufficiently self aware to rebut Ao's tampering.
Another reading of the ED suggested that my initial interpretation on it might be too narrowly drawn. The flavor text indicates only one energy field exists and all the cosmos are made of it, but that does not necessarily mean that the energy field is limited to the cosmos. The final line of the flavor text states that the Immanence is everywhere. It follows that the Immanence may be everything as well. |
Edited by - Veritas on 17 Apr 2012 01:24:23 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 03:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since Ao can wipe the gods out of existence, and since the gods can control the very nature of reality in Realmspace, I'd say that puts Ao at the top, far above anything else that can come along.
Indeed. Ao has demonstrated the "ability" [though, I'm not sure how applicable that label is for a creator god] to "rewrite" the entire celestial pantheon if and when necessary -- simply as a whim.
I would have loved for this to be the path the Realms went with the Spellplague; that it was a reality allowed by AO's sweeping change (etc...)
I've actually tinkered with this idea on and off, while tweaking an alternate Realms-campaign that kind of plays on the classic "Crisis of Infinite Earths" storyline from DC.
I've cast Ao as the Anti-Monitor of this universe!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 04:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
If I may be so bold, where and when did Ao rewrite the Pantheon? Sure 4E streamlined the Pantheon. I wasn't particularly pleased by that. However, where does it state that Ao did that?
Well, there is the small matter of telling every single deity in Realmspace, simultaneously, to take a hike. He weakened every deity in every pantheon in the Realms, at the same time, reducing them all to somewhere just past mortal but nowhere near divine.
And he also decides who is and who isn't a deity, in Realmspace. So the nature of any pantheon is his to decide. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 05:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
If I may be so bold, where and when did Ao rewrite the Pantheon? Sure 4E streamlined the Pantheon. I wasn't particularly pleased by that. However, where does it state that Ao did that?
Well, there is the small matter of telling every single deity in Realmspace, simultaneously, to take a hike. He weakened every deity in every pantheon in the Realms, at the same time, reducing them all to somewhere just past mortal but nowhere near divine.
And he also decides who is and who isn't a deity, in Realmspace. So the nature of any pantheon is his to decide.
Sorry, I didn't see this earlier, but Wooly's more than covered it.
Plus, Faiths & Avatars makes it clear that the pantheon is largely existent on a principle of what Ao says... goes.
And since we, as mortal players in the Realms, can't really know the complete and whole truth of Ao, I've always just assumed that we really couldn't know whether or not Ao's tweaked the celestial realms in the past or not, or, even to-come in the future.
As Ed has said previously when it comes to mortals knowing of divine matters... we know only what we can [limitedly] perceive. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Apr 2012 05:45:15 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 12:42:11
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My understanding of rewriting is changing the characteristics of a deity. E.G. merging Talos into Gruumsh. Or for example, if deities have gender, transmuting Cyric into a CG female deity of bunnies and rainbows. As far as the ToT is concerned, he just suspended the deities which isn't what rewriting means to me.
On another note, Vecna was poised to become an overgod in Die Vecna Die by absorbing Iuz and performing some ritual, no? Its been over a decade since I've looked at that module. |
Edited by - Veritas on 17 Apr 2012 12:42:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 15:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
My understanding of rewriting is changing the characteristics of a deity. E.G. merging Talos into Gruumsh. Or for example, if deities have gender, transmuting Cyric into a CG female deity of bunnies and rainbows. As far as the ToT is concerned, he just suspended the deities which isn't what rewriting means to me.
On another note, Vecna was poised to become an overgod in Die Vecna Die by absorbing Iuz and performing some ritual, no? Its been over a decade since I've looked at that module.
Well, he changed them to non-deities. That's redoing the characteristics. Ditto for deifying a mortal. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 16:51:13
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It seems to me the Immanence might be similar in structure to what AO is, but AO happens to be a much, much more powerful version of the Immanence. An ascended Immanence is to AO what a mortal baby is to Elminster--they may be the same thing, but there's a huge gulf of experience and power there. So if AO was ever a mortal being, then becoming an Immanence was a logical step on his path to being an overgod.
This is all hypothetical, but one could craft a campaign development in which a wizard becomes an ascended Immanence and must either replace AO, challenge AO (if he's gone insane or something), or (as previously suggested) find himself/herself with a new reality to take care of. (Not to bring in real world religions, but there are certain traditions that believe something like this might happen in the afterlife.)
Also, I read "being everywhere and everything" combined with the Immanence being an Arcane sourced epic destiny as being more similar to how Mystra IS the Weave. Becoming a new Mystra might be like becoming an Immanence.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 17:51:17
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The idea that something can be more powerful then Ao within Realmspace just rubs me the wrong way. In my own HB lore (some of which can be seen HERE, about halfway down), I have something called the 'Ancient Accords', which are enforced by an enigmatic thing known as 'The Tribunal' (which is stolen wholesale from Marvel comics Living Tribunal) - this establishes an entire bureaucracy above Ao (as alluded to at the end of the Avatar series).
However, I kinda like the idea that a mortal has 'something special' within them, that would allow them to supersede even deities. This reflects both traditional & modern religious leanings (that mortals are special, and have potential above God(s) other servants), and also ties in well to very old D&D lore concerning the Immortals (that there is something 'beyond' even them that they cannot comprehend). It also fits well with what we know of FR deific lore; nearly(?) all deities had to have been mortal at some point - that a mortal spirit is necessary to link to the power to a consciousness, in order for the deity to be created. Without the power, a mortal simply dies (or becomes something else), but without the spirit, the power is unrestrained, non-sentient, and nearly inaccessible. This means that there is something inherent within human (mortal) spirit that cannot be obtained in any other fashion.
Primordials were given their sentience (by something), making them more akin to devas, angels, and other 'heavenly servants' (which would include demons & devils). So now I am thinking its a 'Free Will' thing (see the movie City of Angels for the importance of free will). Maybe that's what the Awaken spell really does - it grants free will (rather then the creature relying solely on instinct, which may be what Primordials and other Outsiders do). Non-mortals can only rely on whats encoded in their 'DNA' (or the divine equivalent) - the set of rules they were created within, and the purpose they were created for.
Anyhow, I think the question is more metaphysical then a 'versus' type situation. At least, for me it is. Can a mortal 'become more then Ao'? YES, I think so... but at that point that being no longer exists within the parameters of D&D, and should be removed from play. it has either 'gone on' to a higher echelon of beings, or it has 'returned' the primal pool of soulstuff (which in many religions, is GOD itself).
In the words of Qui-Gon Jinn (SW): "There's always a bigger fish". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2012 17:54:56 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 20:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
An ascended Immanence is to AO what a mortal baby is to Elminster
They have the same upper body strength and both wear diapers?
I see we're already calling Elminster a baby! |
Edited by - Veritas on 17 Apr 2012 20:23:04 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 20:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Possibly, although there is that comment in Prince of Lies acknowledging beings more powerful than Ao.
-But said luminous being and it's master does not exist in Realmspace, where Ao is absolute. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 01:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It seems to me the Immanence might be similar in structure to what AO is, but AO happens to be a much, much more powerful version of the Immanence.
It's been a while since I've read the bits on the Immanence, but your phrasing here, to me at least, suggests that maybe the entity itself might be the result of a failed bid to become a creator god. A stalled creator god... for want of a more appropriate term. Like the stillborn gods detailed in the 3e Book of Vile Darkness. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 01:11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Possibly, although there is that comment in Prince of Lies acknowledging beings more powerful than Ao.
-But said luminous being and it's master does not exist in Realmspace, where Ao is absolute.
As I recall, the luminous being ("LB") is Ao's master from the end of Waterdeep. They are not two separate entities: "the luminous being and it's master". I can see no particular reason Ao could trump LB in Realmspace. I refer to Ao's master as the LB because that is Faiths & Avatars' designation for Ao's superior.
Its been about 15 years since I've last read Prince of Lies, but I remember the book amost verbatim (Living in a desolate part of the world for several months having only one book to entertain you has a tendency to burn the text into memory).
Cyric was searching a book written by Gargauth which he acquired in Oghma's library. Prince of Lies wrote (approximately): "The text alluded to primordial battles between the greater powers and weird beings more mighty even than Ao."
Assuming arguendo that the text is a truthful and accurate account, Ao is not exclusively omnipotent. Interestingly several inferences and may be drawn from that line.
1) The greater powers involved may have been annhilated. (Nothing states they survived or were succesful).
2) The greater powers were able to fend off beings of Ao's level of might. This opens possibilities including (a) Ao has become more powerful over time or (b) Ao is not omnipotent.
We perceive Ao as omnipotent because he seems to be able to do as he pleases concerning the powers of Faerun. However if Ao is simply a higher order deity with a portfolio of regulating deities in realmspace, then he may actually be limited to the promotion and destruction of Abeir-Toril's pantheons. Casting down the deities in the Time of Troubles would be within his portfolio sphere. Further, Realmspace deities may be innefective against him as they fall within his portfolio. It follows then that Ao may even be vulnerable to (awesomely powerful) non-divine entities. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 01:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It seems to me the Immanence might be similar in structure to what AO is, but AO happens to be a much, much more powerful version of the Immanence.
It's been a while since I've read the bits on the Immanence, but your phrasing here, to me at least, suggests that maybe the entity itself might be the result of a failed bid to become a creator god. A stalled creator god... for want of a more appropriate term. Like the stillborn gods detailed in the 3e Book of Vile Darkness.
I think Erik's idea is quite an interesting one. It doesn't match up with how I see it going, but if I was still a player of D&D that could be a neat concept and maybe one day I'll have the chance to give that campaign concept a go. Who knows, maybe the Immanence actually is and becomes Ao. Who says time has to work linearly?
I think comparing it to Mystra is the right track, although the Weave has been known to have holes and gaps, so its not necessarily omnipresent, whereas the Immanence basically realizes that everything (rocks, people, planes of existence) are fundamentally composed of one thing which and fromy my perspective, to a degree that substance becomes self aware.
If anyone is familiar with Elder Scrolls (from Bethesda Softworks) lore, its CHIM. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 04:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
It also occurs to me that Myrkul thought he might be able to challenge Ao if he could absorb the souls from his realm and the fugue plain. He could have been horrifically wrong on that account...
The thing to remember is that he was horrifically wrong. Remember when in the Avatar series he was talking to Bane about why Ao cast them down instead of destroying them outright? And he thought it might be because the Tablets of Fate were connected to him, and that Ao couldn't kill them without the Tablets? That they had made him vulnerable?
And then Ao proved them dramatically wrong when he destroyed the Tablets offhandedly at the conclusion of Waterdeep. Myrkul's opinion should certainly never be taken as fact, since he has a colossal misunderstanding of Ao's nature to begin with.
quote:
I agree with you that the Immanence isn't an overgod. The flavor text indicates its passed the state of divinity. Whether an Overgod is considered a divinity is one hair to split.
It's a very important hair. Possibly the most important hair in this entire discussion.
The thing with an overgod is that we call them that mostly because that's what they appear to be - a god-figure to even the gods themselves (i.e. a "god over and above the gods" and therefore an "overgod"). That in no way encompasses the totality of what they are and what they do. An "overgod" is just a convenient label to give them some sort of standing in the cosmic hierarchy (i.e. gods above mortals, overgods above gods). It does not mean that an overgod is actually a "more powerful god than the other gods" at all, but may be some completely different order of being (let's call it a "sentient cosmic force" to get away from the "god" moniker).
Are Ao's powers drawn from a divine spark? Not according to anything we've seen. He created Realmspace and the gods, and created their divine sparks. Created them from nothing, as a matter of fact, and set down the laws for how divinities would function (and can rewrite those laws as he sees fit, such as when he fundamentally altered the nature of their being to make them dependent on mortal faith and belief). Ao's powers stem from something else, some aspect that while intrinsic to his makeup is not "divine" as we can ever understand it.
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To address the sloth point you mentioend, hust because one recognizes they are dreaming doesn't mean they can't enjoy the illusion. Daydreaming for example.
But if you are one with everything, then an illusion is pointless. Reality is no more real than an illusion, and so there is no point to even undertaking it - you know exactly where the illusion will go and what will happen. You are eternal, a fixture. Approaching the concept of "immanence" from such a fundamentally mortal perspective in the sense that you would keep your outlook and perspective is, I think, a flawed methodology.
The idea of "immanence" does seem to have several parallels with the Elder Scrolls metaphysical concept of CHIM. Without going into vast detail, CHIM is the realisation that reality itself is the dream of a sleeping godhead, which thought up two things (IS and IS NOT) and from which everything came, subdividing down and down into what eventually became Nirn, the vessel of transcendence. CHIM is when you leave the "Wheel" (multiverse, shaped like a wheel with Nirn as the hub and gods as spokes), and turn that circle on its side. The "O" of the wheel becomes an "I" and you make the leap. Everything is a dream. You are a part of the dream, but you have the strength of will to say "No, I AM" (an act requiring pure faith and love of oneself - knowledge will explicitly not save you) and maintain your self-awareness (most people can't and zero-sum out of existence, literally deleting themselves from reality as if they never existed). Yes, you become omnipotent. But you don't go seeking CHIM for omnipotence, or out of desire to do good, or anything to that effect.
Where I think this parallel continues is in how by realising that you are everything, and everything is you, there is immediately no longer any need to use your newfound omnipotence. Because you realise that it is all a part of you, all a dream. The trials and tribulations of deities themselves will no more affect you than will the wind that whisks around the grains of sand on the beach. It is all meaningless, so you put down your dice and walk away from the table.
This is explicitly what happens with CHIM. Vivec had it in Morrowind. He could have erased Dagoth Ur and arranged matters so that Ur never existed, rendering the entire game pointless. Why doesn't he? Because he understands that there is no point to him doing so. It is a dream, and it is no more separate from him than he is from it. He cannot be affected by it, or changed by it. He put down the controller and walked away from the TV. And even CHIM is itself merely a stepping-stone on the road to the Amaranth (where CHIM is perception of the Godhead and yourself, Amaranth is where the dreams you give birth to wake up, knowing free will, and become dreamers themselves, forever onward throughout eternity).
Anyway, to imply some sort of "cosmic ranking" in the sense that you would be "greater than Ao" or "less than Ao" (and frankly, that is inevitably where this discussion will end, especially given that the title of the thread is "Ao versus Immanence") is missing the entire point, because it fundamentally ties it to the idea of surpassing something in "scale" or "power" and loses sight of the goal.
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If Ao is capable of ordering everything to his whim at every moment, then he has no reason to intervene.
This is flawed. Ao is capable of ordering everything to his whim, but such action defeats the purpose of his assignment. When the gods were wrecking things (unintentionally in some respect, maybe), he had to step in and fix things so that his assignment would proceed as it should. Otherwise, he is content to allow it to continue towards some goal that only he (and his "Master") understands. He sets the stage for people to use. He doesn't pull on their strings himself.
He doesn't "tamper" with the cosmos, because that implies that it exists separately from him. Recall the ending to Waterdeep:
"The overlord was sitting cross-legged and alone, surrounded by a void so vast that not even his gods could comprehend it. Of all the states of being he could assume, this one was his favorite, for he was at once in time and disconnected from it, at once the center of the universe and separate from it."
He can assume many states, many forms, and exist at once in and outside of existence, be everything and at the same time separate from everything, at the center of everything (everything branching from him) and yet maintaining separation from it. This is beyond "oneness with the multiverse" in itself, for you still exist within the bounds of that multiverse. He isn't just a part of it or an inventor who created it and now tinkers with it, a or a fixture in it, he both is it and is more than it at the same time.
"Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions and millions of assignments like his began and ended."
The place before time, outside of time, where time has no meaning. Yet it isn't separate from Ao either, per se. After all, he falls within himself. He doesn't physically travel anywhere. To imply that a physical form is required of him is flawed in itself, because physical individuality represents a finite, individual being. Ao is not finite within the bounds of our understanding. An "immanence" is, because even they can only exist within what exists. They cannot exist outside or beyond it.
It is a philosophical concept where existence is dependent on the existence of others, as opposed to a being whose existence is only dependent on its own existence. The "immanence" is the former. Ao is the latter (so far as we know, since his relationship with his "Master" is never elaborated on). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 18 Apr 2012 04:58:50 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 13:13:36
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Eldacar, great response. Thanks for engaging in such a thoughtful discussion.
I will endeavor to address the many great points you've provided.
First, concerning Myrkul, I think you're right on the money. I brought him up only because of the 'slight' possibility he may have had an accurate assesment of Ao's powers and limitations.
Second, turning to the nature of overdeities,there are two game sources that provide the inference the Ao is a higher order of deity. The most direct one is his entry in Faiths & Avatars, where he gets a (minimal) deity writeup, including portfolio, superior and about his nonexistent clergy. The second is in the 3E Faiths and Pantheons which explicitly describes overdeities as entities with Divine Ranks of 21+. Taken together, it creates a strong inference that Ao is divine. By a literal reading, to the extent that an Immanence is beyond divinity, it may be akin to, or greater than Ao.
Also we don't know that the Immanence (whose character concept until his destiny is about controlling energy) can't rewrite the portions itself. It may very well be that within the cosmos, the Immanence can replicate any feat accomplished by Ao. Why couldn't he? All the deities, planes, heroes, trees, rocks, etc. are a part of him and he can alter it as he sees fit.
Third, there are some people who claim to experience actual oneness or lack of separation. Perhaps you've heard "After Enlightenment, the laundry". While I cannot speak to that from personal experience, anecdotally attaining an experience of oneness and that we're moving through an illusion hasn't turned anyone into a motionless statue. I can even argue to say existence is pointless because none of us our getting out of it alive, but still we strive. However we're here to discuss FR and not philosophy so I won't continue on that tack.
Fourth, great summary about CHIM. Despite Vivec's CHIM, he still arranged for the Nerevarine to defeat Dagoth Ur. He played a party, even though there was no need to as it was all an illusion. Even more-so if you take as lore the trial of Vivec which he staged for the purpose of punishing Azura, gratifying himself despite knowledge of the illusion. Vivec didn't just drop his controller and go home, he exercised some very mortal desires of retribution.
However to be clear, the attainment of the Epic Destiny is an epilogue to a character. An Immanence may very well drop his controller and walk away. There is no game support for playing the entirety of the cosmos in 4e.
I will agree that the title may be unfortunately confrontational but then would I have been so fortunate to have gotten all these eyeballs? (My beholder readers are insatiable).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 17:56:29
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| Does it actually say that this perception of oneness grants any ability to change anything? I can perceive myself as being one with my car, but I'm still not going to be able to make it fly. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 18:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Does it actually say that this perception of oneness grants any ability to change anything? I can perceive myself as being one with my car, but I'm still not going to be able to make it fly.
I presume you're referring to the Immanence epic destiny. If so, the answer is yes. The decription notes that the character's growing understanding of energy gives him increasing power over the world.
Some in the "real world" claim (myself not among them) that they do develop supernormal abilities to affect the world around them from developing the perception that there is no separation. I've yet to see that myself, but I'm confident that they believe it. |
Edited by - Veritas on 18 Apr 2012 18:07:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 19:38:31
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First off, The book of Gargauth doesn't have to be accurate. After all, Gargauth is a power of corruption, and politics, and corrupting 'facts' to change someone's agenda seems like it would definitely be something that falls within his purview. Not that it is all lies - Gargauth would simply 'corrupt' the facts, and twist them to his own ends.
Second, I don't see Ao 'creating' the gods in the same way some of you are.
The power was always there; what I think occurred was that he attached sentience to some of that power.* Since he obviously has power over primordials (since he managed to banish most of them), one can assume he is either above them in the hierarchy, or something other then them - its a fine point.
So, now I am thinking that Ao is sort-of on-par with primordials, power-wise, but of a different nature. If we think of the cosmos as something ruled by a hierarchy (similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy), and that hierarchy is run like a company, then each being within it has specific jobs to do. When I build a structure, even if I am running the job, I still bow to the superior knowledge of an electrician or plumber when it comes to their part of the task. They are the experts in what they do, and I will work-around what they tell me has to happen - even though I am 'above them' in the hierarchy.
So thats it - outside of Realmspace beings like Primordials, LoP, Elder Aboleth, etc.. may have more actual power, but within Realmspace, they have to follow the rules set-up by the Spheric Gaurdian (Ao in the case of the Realms). Just as the President of the United Staes can be arrested for drunk-driving, or tax-evasion. He holds far more power then those folks, but it avails him naught in certain circumstances. By the same token, the Lady of Pain may be the Gaurdian of the Outlands (or just Sigil), and has no power at all beyond her borders. Ergo, actual POWER doesn't come into play as much as you would think. The same would go for deities and their portfolios - power levels would only come into play when two portfolios cancel each-other somehow (like if Shar was trying to hide information from Oghma, for instance).
Third - what if this 'Immanence' thing is how Over-powers are created? Ao, the LoP, and maybe Io and Krynn's Highgod, Eternity (Marvel), etc.. perhaps they were all mortals who did the 'Immanence' thing? At that level of power, we are no longer even talking about 'spells' or 'abilities' - they have total control of reality within their Spheres/Domains. At that point, what is the difference between reality and dream? Could Realmspace be Ao's dream? Could Sigil be the LoP's?
Anyone familiar with Marvel Comics could liken this to The Beyonder - he was 'born' (became an Immanence?), and eventually became a universe unto himself (a plane in D&D jargon). At the point you become this Immanence-thing, you not only become aware of everything, and the underlying super-structure of the multiverse, but you immediately begin to form your own bubble within it. You become the sentience of your own Domain (which could be as small as Godly Domain, or as vast as a Plane or even a Cosmos). Perhaps this is truly how demi-planes are 'born'.
* I don't think anything can create 'sentience' wholesale - I think a sentience - a new life with free will - is something that must be 'born'. It is something that must come from two (or more) separate entities, and be a part of both, and yet be its own individual thing. To that end, even an Overpower is limited to using whats available - he might be able to create the shell of a god, and give it power, but he cannot create life - that he must 'borrow' from elsewhere. I think this is the 'mortal factor' that comes into play. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Apr 2012 16:52:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 20:16:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Does it actually say that this perception of oneness grants any ability to change anything? I can perceive myself as being one with my car, but I'm still not going to be able to make it fly.
I presume you're referring to the Immanence epic destiny. If so, the answer is yes. The decription notes that the character's growing understanding of energy gives him increasing power over the world.
Some in the "real world" claim (myself not among them) that they do develop supernormal abilities to affect the world around them from developing the perception that there is no separation. I've yet to see that myself, but I'm confident that they believe it.
So what're the parameters of "increasing power over the world"? I can't imagine it's all that huge in scope -- it seems rather unlikely to me that there is a codified, in-game way to become more powerful than the gods.
To again run with my car analogy... I might perceive myself as becoming one with my car, and thus have a better sense of how to increase its performance. This might lead to dramatic increases in gas mileage or superior handling or both. Still doesn't mean I can make my car fly, or even do all that well racing against a Top Fuel dragster. |
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What do you think? Ao vs. Immanence
